What are the pitfalls of changing out just the track/chains verses all of the undercarriage components ? Affordability is the reason I ask. The dozer has worn through the bushings/pins in areas. I put new sprockets on less than a year ago and removed a link to gain some adjustability back but the pins are worn that the pitch is all wrong now for the new sprockets. Again... the story is not to spend a bunch of bucks. The machine only works my private dirt facility, no production. Thanks in advance. Ron
Assuming you are doing the work yourself ....? If so maybe the cheapest would be transfer your track shoes on to another pair of link groups (new or part worn if you can get hold of some). It may cost you a bit in new shoe bolts/nuts but certainly cheaper than another complete pair of tracks. So long as the new sprockets have not been damaged by the extended track pitch of the links that will come off they should be fine. You don't mention the condition of the track roller & idlers...?
See my add in the for sale forum, D6R rails for sale, might work for you. Probably last you a long time.
You didn't mention the condition of the rails but if pins and bushings are the big problem with good rails why not new pins & bushings ?
Fella's The idlers and the rollers seem to be good (not knowing the true new dimensions). No leakers that I detect. Nige, interesting idea... my plates are getting thin and the grousers are geting pretty short. I need to talk to the local dealer to see what combination of parts would work out. I can do the work indoors this winter. If those D6R chains were rolled up and crated I wonder what the shipping weight would come out to ? Great ideas... pins and bushings are probably out..... my chains look real bad compared to the ones DPete is showing. My original question... will there be any problems with running new tracks over worn idlers and rollers ?
My Cat system shows the weight of the link group (chain only, not including track shoes) as 1500 pounds each. There should be no problem running new(er) links over your existing rollers/idlers so long as the wear isn't too bad. As a suggestion ask your local dealer if they can perform a Custom Track Service (CTS) Inspection on your machine to evaluate the wear on all the undercarriage components. If they think they are going to get a sale of the parts they'll be all over you like a rash and won't charge for the inspection. The report at the end is what you need, shows a wear % for each individual piece of the undercarriage system.
Thanks Nige, I will see what the dealer has to say about a cts inspection. I appreciate everyones knowledge as opposed to taking the dealer's word for my questions.
Track components all need to be properly matched to get maximum undercarriage life and lowest operating cost per hour. If you have sealed and lubed chains that are way out of pitch, then those chains are effectively scrap. Chains with excessive internal wear creates a "snaky" track that will wear rollers and idlers much more rapidly. In the old days of dry chains, this was a major factor. Usually, SALT chains rarely develop much internal wear, until they're totally shot. In the old days, it was economic to replace pins and bushings if the rails were still good. In todays world, with SALT chains, few people bother with pin and bushing replacement because the cost of doing so (if you can still find a track shop) is nearly the same cost as new chains. However, installing new chains with worn rollers and idlers usually results in the wear profile of the rollers and idlers making a poor match to the new chains. The rollers and idlers tend to wear in a rounded profile - and this rounded, worn profile on worn rollers and chains, will rapidly produce a rounded profile to the rails on new chains - thus shortening the new chains life, and increasing your undercarriage hourly costs. Seeking out a set of part-worn chains with reasonable pins and bushings, that better matches the worn rollers and idlers, is the ideal way to go - but you have to find them first, too. Usually, the CTS serviceman is pretty much right on the ball with his recommendations, as they do a full assessment of your undercarriage, with careful measurements on every undercarriage component, and projections on undercarriage lifespan from your current working conditions, and undercarriage condition.
Don't feel badly, as I have the sealed and lubricated on JD450G, and have been dutifully watching the pins, they are just started to transition from oval egg shape to having some flats....was told at this point be ready to get pin and bushing replaced, but the price is same as new chains so: am also wrestling with the dry turn idea then let it all run out till the end (which seems closer than I thought), or put on the new chains (rails) and worry about less than desirable wear on the rollers, idlers, and my new chains .... on one hand, the dry turn keeps the snaky track whereas new pins and bushings would keep the old contact parts married as a set and also resolve the snaky-ness .... my friend has a Case 450 and the bushing are "et thru" as he would say, he uses it occasionally on his own property only ... pls let us know what you determine. Thanks
As Oz said above, mismatching rollers to track groups will accelerate wear on both and shorten life. If we replace tracks we replace rollers at same time. Shop labor aint cheap, and neither is downtime. Do it right the first time and get your moneys worth.
What does "SALT" mean when referring to track chains? Thanks
S ealed A nd L ubricated T rack. A term not used so much nowadays, as it was commonly used in the 70's, 80's, and 90's to differentiate between lubricated track chains and dry chains, which were still fairly common. As it stands now, dry chains are the uncommon variety today - unless you have a tractor that is 30 or more years old.
Gent's, Keep in mind this is a personal use dozer. No high production, maybe 12-14 hours a week during the peak summer season. I stockpile and sell compactible clay only. I have a call into Cat to see if the local salesman is interested in looking at the tracks for a measurement of components.
New against new will give you the most value and a balanced undercarriage of course your probably looking at $20K or more. I have put new D8 rails against good used rollers and never suffered except the undercarriage is " out of time" meaning the rollers will be 100% worn before the rails so next you put on new rollers against used rails and so on. For the use you describe I'm sure you would be fine, it's a different deal when you are paying the bill instead of a larger company.
I would look for tracks from a dismantler, you can usually the tracks complete, idlers and rollers. We picked up a complete set of CAT tracks, rollers, idlers, sprocket segments for our 96 D6H LGP from a burn down for under $11K. All parts were CAT, had less than 300hrs. We did have to drive down to NC and pick it up and also install it. Taking pads off sucks, so does buying new nuts and bolts, and then replacing pads. All this is just my opinion however, and your wallet carries more weight than my opinion. Cheers. Tom
Don't ask them. Tell them you are in the market for undercarriage, which is true, just not in the sense the PSSR (Parts Sales & Service Rep) will be thinking - all he will be able to see is dollar signs in front of his eyes. You let him down gently AFTER he's given you the CTS report .......
"You let him down gently AFTER he's given you the CTS report ....... ":drinkup Nige, I love the way you think !!
Remember I used to work for a dealer ....... PSSR's were the lowest guys on the totem pole.
Update for the Holiday Downtime I got the machine in the shop. Gave it a thorough bath, checked and dumped most of the fluids and filters and moved it off the pit and onto the main floor. Also got it off the ground and shored up. Upon a good inspection I found a few more broken and worn out parts. Here is a picture of the machine after some of the work. I will update the progress later on.
Replacing some parts. The two lower lead in rollers were toasted. The others all seem fine. The right front track alingment wear bar was missing and will be replaced. The rollers were heavy so I fabricated a tool to attach to a forklift and it saved my back for sure.
Next up..... The right side sprocket segments were all loose. I had to remove each segment, cleand everything up and re torque each bolt... what a pain. The tracks are next. I found a used set of tracks that look like they have some hours left in them compared to mine. View attachment 98182 Mine are worn from every direction. View attachment 98183 As a unit they are HEAVY ! I need a plan of attack before torching the old ones off. View attachment 98184 Any good tips from you experienced guys ?
Sorry, I have no clue why the pictures did not end up showing in the thread ?
Onward... Next up was to figure out how to actually change the tracks. Being as it was just myself and my son we were low on power armstrong. I decided to get the machine to help us. After getting the replacement track lined up I torched the old track segment to sort of match the stepped tooth of the replacement. Welded a couple of easily removable tabs to connect the two. We were then ready to start the machine and roll the old track off the top of the sprocket and the replacement on under the machine.
It worked like a charm ! We used the forklift to keep the old track off of the replacement as it was feeding around the machine. View attachment 98247 View attachment 98248 At this point we were happy and cut the two apart. I blocked up the grouser at the lower side of the idler and started the machine again to use the sprocket power to remove all slack and to get the stepped ends to come together. As all the slack in the track disapeared and the remaining room in the adjuster tube came back we were shocked to find the track was too short ! View attachment 98249 View attachment 98250 View attachment 98251 Now I am at a loss. My quote from an aftermarket company states the track should be 39 link SALT. Another quote states 39 link HD. The tracks I have in my possesion came off of a sister machine to mine just a few years ago, they are 39 link ? My old tracks were so worn that when I bought the machine a link was removed and new sprockets were added. They are 38 link now ? It appears we are about 8-10" too short.
*** ? I don't know what happened or why the pictures did not show within my post again ?
Nice way to get the new tracks on. I think if you "preview post" you can catch the no picture thing and fix it before posting. I don't know why they are not showing up though.
Old... I always forget to do a preview. Any idea why these tracks seem so short ? The fit in the sprockets looks good compared to my old ones. If you look at a previous post of mine you will see the side views of these two tracks. The centerline measurements between pins is a solid 1" longer on my old tracks. They only rode up on the tips of the sprocket teeth. The new used tracks sit nicely down in the tooth. Ron
Serial number is 3ZF00730. How many pins and what type of track should go ?
Did you compress the track adjuster cylinder before removing the old tracks? If not you may be able to open the grease valve and push it in with your fork lift (carefully so as not to push it off the blocks).
Yes sir, look at this picture. Or click on my attachment # 98249. The adjuster is collapsed fully. The more research I do on this project I am finding my particular machine has a "heavy Duty" track assembly on it. The one I am trying to install is a "regular" duty track. The dimension of pin to pin C/L is determining the pitch of the chain. My old worn chains were 8.5", the new used tracks are 7.5" and what I ultimatly need is 8.00" The saga continues ! Ron
Sorry Multiracer, I am not able to open your attachments. I was not aware that there were different pitches for the same machine, ie: one would need different sprockets for different tracks. Perhaps one of the other folks can help you. I have changed tracks, rollers, sprockets a number of times but have not encountered your problem before. Someone like Nige who has access to the Cat software may be able to clear things up. Good Luck!
if the segments were loose (like mine were) the holes are probably egged out. You will not be able to tighten those bolts up enough to get them to hold. I stripped everything off and built up my hole with a welder then bored them out again with a die grinder, testing till they were tight but would just work. Seems to be holding now, and I didn't have to buy a new wheel/flange.
According to SIS, your machine was shipped with 39 link chains. 40 link chains were available, but called for seven roller track frames which you don't have. There appears to be only one sprocket segment availabe, which eliminates you having chains of the wrong pitch. Have you set the machine on the floor to take the sag out of the bottom of the track? Are you joining the tracks at the rear idler (easy)?, or at the front idler (more difficult)?
The final answer to this puzzle. I want to first thank all of you who contributed to this search. Second, I finally broke down and had the CAT PSS guy here to go over this with me. When all is said and done and reverse tracking from the CAT casting numbers on the links, the tracks that I have as a replacement are actually D5H tracks, hence the 7.5" pitch vs. 8.0" pitch. What I need is a set of HD 39 pin chains to utilize my pads. The difference between Standard and Heavy duty is the physical size of the link. The link is larger in every direction so the pad bolt pattern spreads out as well. This is why I will now try to locate a set of HD 39 pin chains or tracks! :Banghead Again, thank you all for the insight. Ron
To answer your question . The slack is gone under the rollers and we were trying to join it at the rear between sprocket and idler.
Hi Multiracer, I know I am late on this thread but this should be some good info for you. The standard duty chain is what your s/n calls for but you can also put the heavy duty chain on your machine if you remove the wear strips off of your track guides. The bolt pattern is identical and your pads will work with either chain. The heavy duty chain is 7mm taller and 25mm wider than the standard duty chain. Good Luck, QuickTrax
Funny, I thought CAT just told me this machine came with HD tracks. I know my old ones measure as HD and if you look at the pictures my wear bars are on the inside of the roller frames ?
The Cat website is saying this machine "As Shipped" came with a 8E2355/6 link #. This link # belongs to the standard duty chains. The heavy duty link # is 8E7405/6.
Even if they had buckled running a 7.5" track on 8" segments would eat itsef up. To bad though, that's alot of work, I'm suprised the pads fit.
The new 39 pin HD chain number is 6I9668. D, the pads do not interchange between what I have. They are both 22" wide but the bolt pattern is not the same. I checked with CAT and the chains you have seem to be from a LGP machine. That is why the two extra links in yours.
OK got it, I thought you changed the pads. The standard D6 has 1 less bottom roller than the XL hence the 41 link vs. 39, mine is an XL
" I am so confused" !!!!! Not really anymore. It has been a steep fast learning curve. I learn something new every time I speak to someone about this machine. Thanks for the info guys. Ron
well if you have to get new pads, I vote for at least 24".. I think you can go up to 26"..
That brings me to another topic. Compaction. I stockpile compactible clay on our property with this machine. I have had LGP and wide track machines in here on loan from contractors bringing dirt in or out and I always thought the thinner pad footprint would compact the soil a bit better. The LGP type tracks were certainly a better ride and better in the mud too. I like the constant compaction of this 20 ton machine with the thin footprint for driving trucks on it. It is better to have the truck dump at the top of my wedge as opposed to me pushing uphill !