Hello to everyone my D6k2 dozer not starting I have tried everything but failed.i need help badly I have changed injectors,cam and crank timing/speed sensors,rail pressure sensor and also pressure relief valve and checked pump pressure it's about 40 psi crank speed 167 n/min and also changed ECM .I have tried each and every thing.one thing I want to add that machine starts with either easily without any fault code still there are no codes .
From a different thread Dgze posted this. "Sir I have opened new thread for my question but no response from any one that's why I write there sorry for disturbing . Serial no-CAT00D6K HMXK00267'
Let’s start with the back story. What it was doing before it quit? What was it doing when you changed parts a,b,c? Why did you change parts a,b, and c?
Serial no.HMXK0026 Previously it's hard to start cat technicians checked dozer and said two injectors are failed then they replaced them and dozer starts normally about 150 hours same problem accours then I called cat technicians again to visit they changed all six injectors it's starts but not for long now dozer starts with either but not it self. Some friends told me change crank and cam speed sensors and I replaced them some said change relief valve on rail and I replaced relief valve and rail pressure sensor also changed primary and secondary filetrs checked turbo intake and exhaust but dozer is still not starting without either Checked fuel pump pressure it's 40 psi cranking speed 167 n/min
Shouldnt cranking SPEED be 200 MIN.??
Cat trouble shooting chart says min crank speed 150. But faster is better! I thinking the serial number is actually MXK00267 not HMXK00267 when the "H" is included Cat SIS says it's a bad number. I'm attaching the SIS trouble shooting chart on the chance there is something there that may help.
Product identification number=CATOOD6KHMXK00267
Do you have access to tools for checking the compression? Also can you test the fuel rail absolute pressure?
I don't have tools for compression test .
At this point you will need cat et. Everything that needs to be checked can be done there. And you can also do the compression check with et also. Cat uses what is called keystone compression rings. Which need the engine turning at a fast rate to get a accurate reading. I’m told normal ways of checking compression will not work. All can be done with et. But with the talent that cat dealers like to hire these days, you may spend a small fortune having some kid train at your expense to tell you what the problem is. How many hours are on this machine? Seems new enough to still be in warranty.
4750 hours on this machine.i have paid alot to cat technicians and purchased 6 injectors ,valve sensors every thing and they installed each and everything by themselves now I tired for paying
Well it certainly sounds like you are not getting any fuel. With a common rail fuel system cat et is the safest way to check fuel pressures. I’m puzzled about that there aren’t any codes. Low fuel pressure should trip a code. There may be something electrically causing fuel not to be delivered. Again I think that there should be codes. Cat E.T. Will be able to direct you into the right direction. And in my opinion is the fastest way to troubleshoot. (Insert grumbling from old timers here. ) the trick is that you got to know what you are doing and looking for while using it. Unfortunately without being there I can’t help you any further. But 8 injectors later and several other parts plus labor you bought catE.T. If you do most of your own work then you might want to consider getting set up with one. Good luck and I hope that someone here will help you better than I can.
Paul council sir thanks for ur help u really try to do but in this forum Seniors are not intreinter in our problems sorry to say but it's reality I'll solve my problem with the help of seniors on this forum or without them.i personally requiested some senior members for help but unfortunately they didn't show any intesint.if any one joins this forum for help then it's our responsibility atleasat try to help them thanks alot
Stop spending to find out whats wrong by replacing parts . Amongst these pages I see technicians only too happy to replace parts without actually finding or solving the problem for posters . Do the cheap things first , check your fuel tank , blow back the fuel line into the tank from before the fuel filters , have somebody watch just what comes back into the tank with a torch , check the fuel cap air vent as well while you are about it . What is the quality of the diesel you are using , has it diesel bug in it or water . This is the start of the line where the technicians should have gone to first . This problem reminds me of a post where 2 D8T's were on a job , one spare for the other and neither could do a days work . In spite of having technicins involved .
I'm not familiar in the least with one of these machines, but I'll ask a few questions. You say it only starts with ether, is the engine cold when you do this, or does it also only start with ether when it's at operating temp? Does everything act normally in the dash when you go to start it? Have you tried to hook up another machine with jumper cables to see if you can increase cranking speed? When it starts on ether, does it light right off and run normally, or does it bang around and run like crap until it gets going? Does it smoke while you're cranking it when it won't fire off? Based on the past history of *assumed* injector failure, and new injectors temporarily fixing the problem, it might be plausible that the engine is low on compression. Yes, 4700 is not a tremendous amount of hours, but if the machine has lived a hard life it could be worn out/scored cylinders/whatnot.
Dgze, I will have to speak up to support what I believe you are referring to as "senior members" not wanting to help. I can assure you that there are several "seniors" who are interested in trying to help! Problem is many of those "seniors" have never had a chance to work very much if at all on a machine as new as yours. Going by the s/n you posted SIS shows the "Build Date" for that dozer as being 20/05/2016. That tells me it was built over a year after I retired from my job as a mechanic so the chance that I have any experience working on a machine of the age is extremely unlikely. Also you may not be aware of it but right now for many people in the world this is a major holiday time so there is a good chance people who would normally be on the forum giving advice may not be spending much time online, they will be traveling or spending time with friends and family. Considering the time and money you have paid to your Cat dealer who has been at your site without resolving the problem to be upset that a group like this has not been able to offer up advice for free from places the other side of the word in one day or less is asking a lot in my opinion. I for one did take the time to post the official Cat trouble shooting guide. It's no guaranty that your problem will be solved by following it but at least it is someplace to start. And like others have said one of the "problems" with this newer equipment is the need for the right tools and knowledge of how to use them, Cat ET being at the top of that list. ET will not solve every problem but working on a machine this new without access to ET will have you stumbling in the dark. Even if you were lucky enough to guess what was "broke" you might need ET to calibrate the new part to your machine. I hope you understand that I am not trying to argue with you just pointing out what I believe are the facts of dealing with the equipment that is being sold these days. The days of hitting something with a hammer or push starting a dead machine are long gone! Good luck with your project!
It runs fine once you get it started? If you remove the dipstick or oil cap while it's running it doesn't spit oil at you or have pressure initially? If you get it to normal operating temperature and shut it down will it restart without ether? Is it better or worse? Do you blow out your primary engine air filter? If so pull the primary and secondary filters out, reach into the tube and see if there is dust past the filters.
Might try and the the injector bypass test. Not sure what kit for that machine but the one for my 6 was cheep. I agree with what was mentioned above for blowing out the fuel line. The last to no starts I had were both plugged fuel pic up.
Hello everyone thanks for help after a long trubleshooting machine started after valve lash adjustment and I have run it about 5 hours unfortunately a high pressure line(transparent) leakes which I installed in between fuel pump and secondary fuel filter for testing purpose air in fuel after that I installed his on line and tried to start but now it's like before not starting once again any suggestions ?
We have given you suggestions and you haven't returned any answers or results from those suggestions. I doubt anyone is going waste anymore time trying to help you if you're not going to follow their input.
I have to agree with newguy2k3, seems like in place of a conversation where someone suggest "Try this and see what you find" expecting a reply to help the person who suggested it to know what the result was so they can understand what is going on. Instead seems like the original poster keeps trying things and saying it worked for a short time then nothing works again. Sometimes one can get lucky and stumble on to the solution to a problem but that is not often the best way to find the real problem. One also has to understand that the people trying to help are not there and can not see hear or smell what is going on. The only thing we have to work from is the replies of the person who IS THERE! I would suggest the original poster to print out the Cat troubleshooting chart I posted and start at the top and do each step one at a time and report back on the results.
Dear newguy2k3.sir I have followed each and every instruction problem is this when u guys commint there is night or I am on machine that's why I rply late otherwise I really find helpful your every suggestion.1 when machine started on either it's runs fine smooth how long u want to work there is no problem but if u off ignation switch after that machine don't start without either in hot or cold no matter.i have removed both filters checked the tube it's clean also checked turbo charger it's also in good condition. Here is my whatsap number if u can text me or call me any time 00923337984294
I think you might have a high pressure pump problem. Usually when you start replacing injectors the pump should be replaced too. I have had both injectors and pump cause the hard starting you have. Et would help so you can monitor fuel rail pressure. I would talk to your cat dealer again and see if they can test it for a bad pump. Sorry but these engine can be costly to repair the fuel system.
Ideally I'd like to know cranking rail pressure and the results of an injector leakoff test but this seems like the next logical part throwing step.
Dear kshansen sir I followed the chart send by u and thanks for helping me I have test everything but compression tester is not available there.fuel pressure is 40 psi cranking speed 167 n/min.air inlet turbo all clear.there are no diagnostic codes speed sensors crank and cam changed fuel rail pressure sensor changed relief valve changed vavve adjusted tomorrow only compression test is left due to not avalilablity of tester.injectors also changed
Newguy2k3 sir I have changed all 6 injectors+ sensors related to starting .I think rail pressure is ok coz I disconnect rail pressure sensor line and cranked machine it shows high fuel rail pressure.and I also checked pump pressure with pressure guage it's 40 psi and cat says 40 psi for c7.1 engine is enough for starting any thing else u want to check I am ready to check and inform u
40psi is the supply pressure to the high pressure pump. The output from the high pressure pump should be 3600psi+ and it needs to be checked with ET.
If you can get it to run with ether and it stays running until you shut it down. Then you are losing prime in your fuel system. Either the relief valve is dumping the pressure or the check valve on the back of the head where the fuel return line is has failed. Hard to diagnose without catE.T. Or understanding how the fuel system works.
You're thinking of a c7 heui engine. This is a c7.1 common rail. If the ECM does not see at least 3600 psi of rail pressure while cranking out will not even try to fire. Usually it's the injectors leaking off excessively that cause low cranking pressure. I'm guessing the ether is giving just enough extra cranking rpm to get the rail pressure high enough to fire and run.
Dear I have changed injectors they only runs 50 hours
It's possible that the high pressure pump is what has been failing all along and caused the other injectors to fail.
This is exactly what I’m thinking. unplugging the rail sensor is not going to show you that the pump is good. Without a sensor the ecm has no clue what the pump is putting out and it will cut pump signal altogether. The code will be sensor high current while it’s unplugged. I hate to say it but you’re probably going to need a pump. I give it about a 10 percent chance that compression is the problem. If it had low compression it would be smoking blue after an ether aided start.
screw it.. ya got 32 questions & no answers.. u can BUY a WHOLE LOTTA starting fluid for the price of a pump & injectors..AND the cost of the Cat techs coming out & replacing parts..LOL..
Fuel pump supplies 40 psi to secondary fuel filters this presupre goes into rail continuesly and relief valve hold it to 36000+- psi .if it's above they requeired pressure sensor must sense that pressure and ECM detect high pressure or if it's not building enough pressure ECM also detect low pressure if I'm understanding
Thepumpguysc sir it's really complicated without ET but we have to diagnose it
Did the Cat guy not have ET? Did he actually check anything? Did he give you a written report as to what he had found?
There are 2 seperate fuel pumps. A low pressure transfer pump pulls it from the tank, pushes through the filters to the high pressure pump. That is the 40psi you're getting. The high pressure pump turns that into 7-30,000psi and sends it to the injectors. This pump HAS to make 3625psi before the engine will even try to fire on its own. This is the number that's important and that you cannot see without cat et.
That is what I was trying to get across back in post #16 way back that if you are going to be running a new machine like this you have to either get the proper tools to work on them or have someone you can call in when a problem rears it's head. One minor problem with a bad sensor and a machine can be dead in the water with out ET to calibrate something. We learned that years ago with a 988H minor problem of sensor bracket bolt broken. Replaced the 3 12 mm bolts figured it was good to go. Nope, sensor had moved past it's normal range and needed to be re calibrated. No damage to sensor but the main production machine for the plant was down till dealer came out and spent five minutes with laptop! Problem solved!
In this case with the rail pressure sensor unplugged it would throw a voltage above normal fault but the engine should still run. It would run on a "default" fuel rail pressure control map and be derated. If everything is mechanically fine it should run.
Pretty soon your pump will be stuffed if you keep poking paste through it to your nice new injectors , thats if you pump is not stuffed already , which I think it will be . It will be crook fuel that is stuffing them , if they are , indeed , stuffed .Hopefully its a partially blocked system and not a destroyed pump which will be costing big money .
Good morning and a couple of comments. Did it not occur to you that some of us might not be able to reply for various reasons..? In my case I have just spent the last few days travelling halfway across the world followed by a day getting over jet lag after I arrived. On a couple of occasions I did manage to get on line and saw the thread but not with enough bandwidth to start major searches, etc, on SIS. Also IMO HEF is not a replacement for a manufactuer's approved dealer and therefore we have no "responsibility" per se to help anyone, although we do try our best. Without access to ET I would compare your diagnostic task like being in a boxing match with both hands tied behind your back, unless you simply resort to throwing parts at the machine until you replace that one part that fixes the problem. A couple of questions if I may: - 1. What is the altitude above sea level at the job site where the machine is operating..? 2. If you successfully start the engine with ether does it stay running until you shut it off..? How does the machine perform when the engine is running..? Does it have what you would consider as "normal" power and performance..? Please find attached the D6K2 Fuel System operation manual. As per the posts by Newguy23 & Mobiltech the sensor in the High-Pressure side of the system has to see pressures approaching 4000psi before the green light is given to fire the injectors. That is why IMO the engine will start using ether, the ether increases the cranking speed just enough to achieve the bare minimum pressure in the fuel rail and fire the injectors. At that point the electronic & mechanical sides of the fuel system take over and keep the engine running from there onwards. The next move would be to check pressures at the rail while cranking. If ET is not available you would require a mechanical 6000psi gauge installed somewhere in the HP fuel system. If you have a suitable gauge available try that and post your results.
That is what I also tried to explain way back in post #16! I know when one is having a problem and maybe has boss man breathing down his neck one can get anxious for a reply but when getting free help from all corners of the world one has to be patient. If the boss man does not like it tell him to cough up the funds for the proper tools and training! Sometimes it seems to me like people man this forum 24-7 but in reality life does get in the way! Right now I'm dealing with having one hand in a splint due to hand surgery and even though I'm retired and home almost full time I do have to take a break now and then and I have lost several of my replies to this and other sites just due to the clumsiness of this darn splint!
I have often wondered if when some guys see a post that I made at 2:30 pm on a Wednesday they are thinking to themselves, "Wow, sure wish I could sit on the internet all the time." The truth is, I probably spend a little more time on here than I should on occasion, but my work is weather dependent for the most part, and when the weather doesn't allow me to work, I find myself on here. This past week, my wife's mother passed away, so in between the things involved with that I have been spending time here.
Dont waste your breath Nige.. your time is to valuable to worry your head about problem solving 4000 miles away w/ no diagnostic tools..
I'm right there with ya Shimmy.. I get woken up by my back aching at 2-3AM & get on here.. Some of u can probably tell by my "answers" that I'm havin a BAD morning.. {Lol} & u can def. tell if u look at the "time stamp".. just what the hell is wrong w/ TPG??
Thanks nige for replay 1.the attitude above sea leavel is 1249meter 2.when we start the machine with ether it runs until we shut off and the performance and power is normal.only one thing I noted when you set throttle on eco mode it doesn't work like before . Two time machine started without either 1st time when started for 8 to 10 days after removing air in fuel system and changing rail pressure sensor and relief valve on rail 2nd time engine starts without either after valve lash adjustment runs only 5 hours once again thanks for your suggestions I am very happy to receive your replies