went thru transmission last winter, this winter would like to rebuild engine and pull out torque converter to check it for specs and rebuild if needed.should I just do an out of frame rebuild to get at the torque converter also or an inframe no rear or front main seal leaks. just wanted to get everything done while I am in there, any other items that I should replace while I have it opened up??
The engine can be done easily in frame, I do them on sites but sometimes need to pull off the nose group to whip out a damaged cam, the torque is not to bad a task to remove although the benefit of a steam clean can make it a lot better, inside the Cab roof are 3 plugs these are for lifting eyes to aid removal of the implement and trans pumps with the centre 1 for the torque unit via a pull lift (lever hoist), the torque has some nasty little 12 point headed bolts in the centre needing a good quality (Snap On) deep socket to tackle them, the innards are simple to sort. tctractors
ok finally getting this project going,problems where a low power issue, slow to get to full rev almost a 5 sec count,also tranny would heat up after 4 hrs or so,checked out torque first,was in spec on a third gear stall 1540rpm and also checked in spec psi outlet side,also if you drain more then one gallon out the bottom of torque then you have a leaky torque seal problem, this one only drained a 1/2 gallon.so torque seems to be good. well on the engine tear down,learned some good things drop card board in front of radiator when you pull the fan hub of, and zip tie old rod bearings back on do protect that area when you drop rod back down esp good when working alone. these where all ideas from tc tractor. well sent the head in to have it checked out and the num 1 exhaust valve had chewed badly into the head,no wonder I had a boost problem,she would really smoke out the front when it heated up and I had all kinds of build up on the radiator so hope fully this helps the torque converter heating problem. I also pulled the main bearings and found one that was badly scaulded, these are all ipd and that is what I am putting back in, what would cause this?
Looks like possibly water or some lubricant reacted with the bearing surface material.
Is that the only shell from the complete crankshaft (mains + rods) with marks on it..? Top or bottom..? What does the other half look like..? Have a good look at the damaged areas under a magnifying glass. If they appear to be all the colours of the rainbow around the edges of the scabby areas then it could have been caused by welding at some time in the past.
Just the mains three four and five some top some bottom never top and bottom together
What about a lightning strike?
Look into "Cavitation Erosion" usually on unloaded side of insert. Due to collapse of entrained air bubbles in the oil stream.
Yair . . . I have never seen anything like that. Nige . Have you seen such a failure from welding? We have all been warned about it but I have never seen it happen . . . you would imagine there would also be damage to the crank? Old Magnet "entrained air bubbles in oil stream" does that imply that some time in the past such damage was caused by running low on oil? Cheers.
Well I am surprised but crank looks ok
The oil coolers will need stripping and the water tubes cleaning, the oil filter head will need the valves inspecting also the oil pump will need checking as the prv can be damaged, this is not un-common, on the bearing thing it is often found on tractors with pilots that work the Batters and steep inclines, O.M. is on the money here I think, if the crank looks good with No gravel rash just stuff in the new shells, small end wear needs checking also suck out the cam followers and check them, finally check the rocker arm tips for wear and the mounting dowels for damaged caused by crap fitters in the past. tctractors
This tractor has lived on the steep stuff, can some one explain this cavitation stuff
Cavitation erosion is an impact fatigue attack caused by the formation and collapse of vapor bubbles in the oil film under conditions of rapid pressure changes. I'm thinking foam or aerated oil as source. Nothing to do with low oil level. Could actually be do to high oil level as whipped up by the crankshaft. Steep stuff could be a contributor. Sometimes solved by going to a harder bearing. Best to "google" the subject, lots of discussion out there. If it was do to welding I'd expect it to be in one spot as in path of least resistance, not distributed over several bearings.
OM got it right. It's the same way as localised boiling of (generally poor-quality) coolant on the outside surface of a cylinder liner. As the liquid boils it causes bubbles to form and when they burst they literally scour the metal off the surface. The Failure Analysis Guide says the following - "Cavitation erosion damage is caused by the formation of vapour bubbles in areas of low pressure (vacuum) and the collapse of those bubbles in high pressure areas. It is normal to see some cavitation erosion damage on high-hour crankshaft bearings that have been operated under conditions of high load and speed. Because fluid pressures rise rapidly in the trapped oil film between the crankshaft bearings and the crankshaft generally speaking the bubbles will collapse somewhat outside the load-bearing area of the bearing. Because of this it is uncommon for cavatition erosion to cause complete bearing failure. However if cavitation erosion is severe enough to loosen larger pieces of the aluminium layer under the lead-tin overlay pieces can break loose and cause abrasive damage, roughen load-carrying surfaces, and shorten bearing life." Apologies for the poor quality of the photo but it's the best I could find. Causes of cavitation damage in crankshaft bearings can be any/all of the following in no particular order - Wrong Oil, Oil Level much too high or much too low, bad oil filter bypass valve, air leaks in the suction side of the oil pump, high inlet restriction. Here's a photo of seriously cavitated liners from engines that were run pretty much on neat water instead of coolant. The "pinholes" on the outside of the liner are caused by exactly the same mechanism that did for the crankdshaft bearings.
I usually blame this kind of damage with engines that have had coolant in the oil at some time. As well as in the crank bearings, there's also been similar damage in the cam and idler gear bearings. I can't say I've ever drawn a connection between this and machines that have been working steep batters though. I've seen it on a gen set engine which had a bad lower liner seal for example, but the cavitation erosion theory interests me. I'm going to do some research on that later
OM and Nige have it right. FWIW, WWII work by Rolls-Royce on Merlin engines showed that air entrained in the oil flow to a plain bearing caused very quickly a 'wiped' or burnt bearing. Loss of oil flow, i.e. no oil pressure *but* no air introduced to the bearing space between the journal and bearing surfaces, could be sustained for tens of seconds of time without any damage. Glycol or water in the oil caused microscopic vapor pockets, and cavitation erosion with the collapse of the vapor pockets. (Ship propellers suffer the same cavitation erosion.)
Cavition Erosion Seen the same thing happen to boxcar wheels when inspecting for flat spots & skids, more often in the winter months with ice & snow, sometimes the crater would be 1/2 - 3/4" deep couldn,t save the wheel set
ok we are on the downhill slide now it will have inframe rebuild, with new head,new oil pump, new fuel pump,new oil cooler, new pr oil valve,all new hoses for turbo connection points and radiator hoses,next thing I have to tackle is the trans oil cooler, after looking at the old engine oil cooler which was pretty plugged I am hoping this trans cooler is plugged up to which will help out on my trans heating problem.my question is there are some monster lines coming into this, and one is pretty low on the trans but passes thru the priorty valve, with 30 gallons + in the trany will it gush out like crazy.not sure if one of my rubber plugs will hold up to that.LOL
Great info guys. You learn something new everyday
I don't think the oil will gush out, my D7H didn't, that connects to an inner pipe that goes to the back. I would suggest changing the 2 lift and 2 tilt cylinder hoses that run from the valve to the front while they are easy to get to.
well not a whole lot leaked out,good idea on the tilt and lift cylinder hoses zhkent,so far every thing I have touched has been already messed with at least once from the tranny to the engine, all ipd orings and gaskets, tractor has 14000 on the clock.pulled the trans oil cooler and it was pretty gunky plus some one either dropped something into the rods or something smashed into them coming thru the lines not sure how tough these tubes are, lucky they held together, would antifreeze leaking thru into the trany, take it out in a hurry??
Coolant in the transmission oil is never a good thing, although saying that, some clutch materials are more tolerant of it than others. Some are a paper based material and any water based substance will ruin them. Personally, if in doubt I would install a reman cooler. If you want to test your cooler, it is pretty easy. Blank off one of the oil ports, connect the other port to about 30psi shop air, drop the cooler in a water bath and look for bubbles. What condition were your cam bearings in?
If that tractor was mine and bearing in mind the amount of work done on it already I wouldn't even think of reinstalling that cooler, tested or not. Like CM I'd stick a Reman cooler in it for peace of mind.
Thinking a bit more about the condition of the tubes right next to the port on that cooler I've seen similar to that before but generally on engine oil coolers and eventually traced to using off-brand oils. Were the tubes next to the other port the same..? They should have been OK because the damage I've seen before was always next to the oil inlet port, not the outlet. I realise this is the transmission cooler not the engine cooler but could this be the case with this particular tractor..? Well worth having a dig into what oil is being used in the transmission.
not sure if it was inlet or outlet it was the solid pipe, the hole in the cooler closest to the seat,the oil I used meets the to4 cat specs but it is not cat oil,i did not look at cam bearings so not sure on them, also found that one of the oil pump connection points was missing a gasket, would that cause more then normal air bubbles.it seemed the lower the bearings where in the oil the worse they looked, just going by the difference between main and rod bearings. this is the first engine I have been into, so I am trying to soak it all in. thanks to HEF
we just set the timing and could not get both pins to drop in, so that was of to,previous owner complained how weak this tractor was compared to his deeres,no wonder it was getting a bad review.
Some oil line joints in the sump don't have gaskets, just metal to metal. Check your parts book carefully before putting gaskets in.
I can't remember the last time I ever set a 3306 pin to pin. Always advance them part of a hole on the flywheel or pump. That is pretty much standard practice with any cat mechanical pump. It clears up the smoke on cold startups.
Agree most oil pumps mounted internally don't have gaskets between the sections or mounting points, suction tubes I believe will usually have gaskets. I try to look on SIS for this one. Did not see a S/N in the thread, might have missed it, but checked a D6R with a 3306 and the only gasket that is inside the crankcase that touches the oil pump is the one for the suction pipe. That's the 2M5407 gasket. Also on the oil cooler, I would agree with Nige on not wanting to reuse that one, might be a little paranoid but I would sleep better with a new or reman one in there!
s/n is 9pn00498 my book shows 8m0904 and 2m5407 at the two suction tube connection points, maybe I am reading the picture wrong,when looking at the fuel pump, down timing pin hole, the slot needed to be turned upwards to go in, was this advanced or retarded? maybe I should not have messed with it. it has a new trany oil cooler now, so it should work a little better. I am crossing my fingers, plan on firing it up tomorrow morning, any thing I should do or check before or after fire up, was maybe going to change oil filter out after a hour of run time. how do you break in a new rebuild?
It was advanced.It should only be about 1/16 of an inch or less off on the pump slot to be right. If you pin the pump and then turn the engine in the direction of rotation until an o ring pick drops into the flywheel pin that's about right . Tighten the pump drive gear at that point.
8M0904 is the gasket for the main suction screen. The scavenge pickup has a 114-2687 O ring into the elbow which then has a 2P8746 gasket onto the oil pump. The 2M5407 Gasket is for the external line to the oil filter head. Starting up for the first time, connect a pressure gauge to the main oil gallery and crank it over with the fuel off until you get some pressure. When it's running, apart from the obvious of looking for leaks and unusual noises, check that all the rockers are getting oil. And obviously check that the oil pressure in in spec. Unless you've built it in a super clean workshop, run it until it's warm then change the oil and filter again. Cut open and inspect the filter. Check the valve clearances again. If all appears OK just take it to work and don't baby it. No particular running in period is required. I personally like to change the oil and filter again and take a sample after 50 hours, but that's just me being cautious.
I usually fit a new oil pick up pipe on an engine rebuild with the all important nasty little gasket and lock tab, the scavenge pipe I remove from the sump and clean then fit new O ring and elbow and stuff onto engine, the sump is the last thing I fit to the engine just in case I drop a push rod down its innards, theoill coolers would have been cleaned in the water tubes then stuffed straight back on the chariot as I have seen a lot nastier than these, on the pump pin setting right is right thats what the pin setting is for, doe's this engine have advance retard front gear on the pump? both the pipes on the oil pump have a gasket joint, finally the oil filter would do with pre filling, as soon as the engine lights up check the levels then send it out to graft and draw your coins job done. tctractors
Yes running the pump timing pin to pin will be fine that is how it was designed to run . I was just explaining why it was not pin to pin when you checked it. We run in some pretty cold temps here and at -40 a little more advance on the timing helps clear up the smoke on a cold engine.
ok started it up oil pressure all good,it still has a slow to get to full rpm,i wonder about the timing advance with the weights and springs looks like its behind the front cover of the fuel pump, do I have to pull the front nose to get at that stuff. also still has low boost under stall its 10psi. fuel air ratio has new pipe so I do not think its there.
i also cut the old oil filter open i was amazed at how clean it was, all the big chunks of metal laid in the bottom of the drain pan. would the oil that goes to the fuel pump be filtered thru the oil filter first just wondering in case i got some metal in the oil part of the fuel injection pump.
well finally had a little more time to work on head scratching 3306,i pulled the fuel injection pump off and took it to a pump guy with the cat test stand,he tested it, said it was perfect,i was disappointed because my next move would be messing around pulling the front nose off and checking the engine camshaft.i was hoping it was the camshaft in the injection pump,he went back and and looked at the degrees of the cam in the pump.well this pump has a 4 deg before TDC cam, its supposed to have a 10 deg before TDC cam.somebody before me changed the pump out and installed the wrong cam or all together wrong pump. hoping this it, maybe i will finally have a good running 3306b,thanks HEF for all your help along the way!!