Hi Everyone, Working on a Cat D6T 2009 LAY01391 dozer that im experiencing intermittent problems when trying to back up, it'll try to reverse, seems to be under alot of pressure but wont back up 1 out of 10 times, I was getting speed sensor faults, and soleniod fault codes but the speed senors ohm out to spec, I did try trans calibration before changing harness and kept recieving a error code while it was filling the 5th clutch, Code: 0009 I was told by cat tech that code ment it was showing transmission speed while calibrtion was running and after checking plug on the inside harness I did manged to find resistance and changed harness, But still, the 2 speed sensors ohm out to spec, so now im just wondering if thers anything else to check before changing speed senors? and also if that specifc code is refering to a specific sensor? I did already check all the wires and pins back to ecu and couldn't find anything wrong, also if it happens to be a speed sensor, is it possible to change without removing transmision? Thanks for any and all help!
Unfortunately you cannot test speed sensors just by measuring resistance. Can you remember what Codes you had, or still have.? There are troubleshooting procedures for them. Again, unfortunately no. They are buried deep in the transmission and only removeing it from the machine gives access to them.
I guess I got the suggested ohm reading of these sensors from another forum, and was just going by those recommendations
Sorry about my first response there, I tried replying from my phone and it didn't work out to well.
So the ET screen above was a shot of the Logged Diagnostic Codes, I assume after someone had erased whatever might have been there previously. I'm thinking what you may have had before could have been 113.0585.02 and/or 113.0673.02. Don't worry about the 1250.09 Code for the Product Link. That won't stop the machine from operating even if it is Active. What type and weight of oil are you using in the powertrain.?
I never took a screenshot of the speed sensor faults and the solenoid faults but I know they started with 113 I believe it’s 32w I have in there
So I just tried to do another transmission calibration and it went through successfully! But now when im shifting to neutral or forward/ reverse it’s start moving with a jerk and stops with a jerk. A few days ago I filled the accumulator with nitrogen and it stopped doing that. Now after this calibration it’s doing it again. Could it be low again? Because half hour ago it shifted and stopped smoothly ?
Is that accumulator 250psi?
Do you mean hydraulic oil...? You can't put that in a powershift transmission....!! If so you got the "wrong stuff" in there. Are you located in NB, Canada.? Need a geographical location to figure out what oil viscosity to recommend. It is precharged to 250psi. If it is losing charge that could be a cause of rough shifting. Why not check it again.? If it has lost precharge pressure then you may have to replace it. AFAIK it is non-serviceable.
I’m in Manitoba, Canada. We use that in most all of our equipment….
I did check accumulator again and it was at 200. Will try topping up again and check again
Thanks for confirming the location. Is the 32W oil you are using in th red transmission a pure hydraulic oil.?
It’s a duratran hydraulic/transmission fluid I’m using in all my power shift tractors here. But my tractors share the same tank for Hyd and transmission fluid. This d6 is pretty new to us so I don’t know to much about dozers
The spec sheet says it meets the (obsolete) Cat TO-2 specification. TO-2 was replaced by TO-4 approximately 40 years ago. It does not meet the latest TO-4 specification which is required in the D6T transmission. In your location I think you might be better with a multigrade oil. The 32W is really far too light for summer and borderline too heavy for winter. I’ll take a look through Petro Canada’s product list and see what pops up. I seem to recall finding a multigrade from PC for a 973C transmission a while ago.
Thank you. Appreciate this!
Can you confirm the ambient temperature range between summer highs and winter lows please. I'm seeing zero Celsius as a minimum and 20 as a maximum but I'm not sure I believe it. Right now the ISO 32W oil you have is something equivalent to an SAE20 viscosity. You really have to go down to an SAE 5W for winter and up to an SAE30 for summer. Hence why my first call was a multigrade - unless you want to change oil types between summer and winter that is..........
Ya that would be great if that was the case but more like -40 to +40 Celsius. But the range this is mostly be used at would be +5 to 30. Shedded for most of the winter except the odd occasion.
I’d really perfer not to have to change oils. I’d much rather go with a multi grade. Unless the sae30 would be ok for the odd time we use it in winter (mostly when a truck is stuck real bad in icy conditions) not more then once over a winter if that…
That being the case you could probably get away with an SAE30 TO-4 all year round but you would have to be VERY careful how the tractor is warmed up if it has to go out to work in the winter. The fact that it is shedded helps a lot. SAE30 - Petro Canada Produro TO-4+ SAE30 Multigrade - Petro Canada Produro TO-4+ Synthetic All-Season Data sheets attached. The final choice is down to you.
When you say it stops with a jerk is that with the brake partially applied?
Thanks for the help Nige. I’m gonna go with the Milton grade as this isn’t a one man machine around here and liable to not get warmed up properly if used in winter
No. It will stop with a jerk when brake is applied as well, but as soon as I calibrated it and tried to move again it was a day/night difference. Before, it coasted to stop and started gradually, now, it’s exactly like before when accumulator was completely empty. Only difference now it still had 200psi in it. I got pulled away yesterday and haven’t had a chance to fill it to 250 again to see if that helps But after this conversation with Nige I probably should swap out oil first and do another calibration before jumping to conclusions maybe. I’ll post the findings…
I should have mentioned that I only recently topped it up with about 3 gl of this 32w. We never had to before and I can’t say what was in there when we purchased it a few years ago. But I brought it in for service here recently because of the thought shifting and noticed it was low
I don’t think the weight of oil is what’s making it jerk. If it was a hydraulic oil only type of oil it might be a problem but I think it’s a trans hydraulic oil you are using. What rpm are you calibrating at. I know some of these machines seem to calibrate better if you run at the low end of the rpm spec for calibrating. I also remember having a d6 that would not calibrate smoothly and it turned out to be the old software in the trans ecm. I reflashed with the latest software and it fixed it.
So here’s an update: I topped it up again this morning to 250psi, and tried it again. Didn’t really help going in forward and when I tried to reverse, the initial symptom of it not reversing came back and it’s not revesing anymore, sometimes it will for a foot and then stop, seeming like it’s still trying but under pressure. I am 99%certain my accumulator is busted as it’s leaking trans fluid when I put a gauge to it. But I’m not sure if that’s what’s stopping it from reversing either. There’s still no codes coming up at all… I’ll post a picture of the software, could you tell me if that’s something I could update?
Calibrating at 1600rpm
If oil leaks out when you put a gauge to it, it's bust......... Powertrain software has been updated half a dozen times since the 333-9326 that is currently installed. The latest flash file Part Number is 490-7197. However I cannot find any articles anywhere stating that any one of the aforementioned software upgrades is "designed to improve transmission shifting". Make of that what you will.
The accumulator will not make it lose reverse. That would more likely be a modulating valve problem. There are 5 modulation valves. 1 for each clutch pack.
ok. So is there anything I can check on those ? Looking at the transmission solenoid current % it’s the #1 and #5 or #1 and #4 that activate when backing up depending on gear selection. #4 and #5 activate also on forward and forward works, so am I correct in assuming #1 could be causing the issue? And if so, any diagnostic procedure I could do on it?
Or are there 2 I could swap in my situation to diagnosis that way ?
Just stepping back a little. This all started off as a calibration problem with #5 clutch, which is for 1st speed in both directions, failing to calibrate. So why is the tractor only experiencing random problems when trying to engage reverse.? It's not even consistently faulting. Get your ET hooked up and look at two parameters, service brake pedal position sensor and service brake pedal switch. There is both a sensor and a switch under the cover behind the service brake pedal. The position sensor sends a signal which applies the service brake in a controlled fashion for modulated stopping. The switch, which is ON/OFF, only activates when the pedal is almost at the bottom of its travel. It dumps the pressure in the brake system, effectively applying the parking brake until the pedal is released and the switch contacts change state. What if that switch is occasionally sticking.? The park brake would be applied and the transmission would be trying to drive through it.
I was looking at that page yesterday watching the engaged/disengaged of the service brake switch and it seems to be working as you described. Also, if the condition you described were the case , would that not also be true in the forward state? Because right now, I can try forward and it’ll move, but when I go to reverse without even touching brake it won’t.
Have you tried "tickling" the service brake pedal to see if it makes any difference.? Also have you tried it in all three reverse speeds.? Does it act the same way in all of them.? Probably now is the time to lift the floor plate in the cab and observe what the drive shaft between the converter and the transmission is doing when you try to engage any gear, not just reverse, with the service brake pedal both applied and released.
just a quick note on the re gassing of the Accumulator, start by connecting an open line to the charge valve with the loose end in in a container, vent all the Nitrogen out of the cylinder then start the engine up so the piston inside is pushed towards the charge valve, this will blow out all the bypassed oil in the gas side, turn the engine off and give things 10 min's to calm down then start the re charge with Nitrogen by putting 100 psi in slowly as this will push the piston towards the oil feed line, again give it a few moments and then you should be able to undo the oil feed line with no pressure in and then complete the gas fill up to the set standard, do up the oil feed line and remove your gas charge kit job done.
Ok thanks for the info. Getting the accumulator today and will try filling it like you described. Yes I’ve tried moving brake pedal And also tried reverse 1 and 2 but I didn’t try 3. I haven’t been back to machine for 2 days. When I get back to it I’ll remove that floor plate and see what’s happening
So I filled accumulator. Seemed to go ok.. I remove that floor plate and watched the driveshaft, it’s constantly spinning in neutral, spins when selecting forward and when applying service brake its stops. As I release it more and more it tries to spin, I assume that’s how it should work. But when I select reverse without touching brake it’ll reverse 50%of the time maybe. But when it doesn’t reverse, driveshaft just stops when shifting from neutral. Moving brake pedel doesn’t help at all. Seems to be one of the clutches not releasing
Is that a modulating valve I could swap with the number 1 valve and see if the problem moves? And if so, is there a diagram you could share to show which one is which as well?
Sorry I should have explained it more clearly. The test is done with the service brake applied and the engine at Low Idle RPM. The shaft should spin with the transmission in neutral and stop absolutely dead when you select any speed either FWD or REV. I would suggest trying to swap the FWD and REV modulating valves (Ref E & F), but I'm not sure if you can access them sufficiently with the transmission installed in the machine. If the modulating valve is misbehaving the problem ought to shift from REV to FWD speeds.
So you’re saying it should stop when forward or reverse is selected? Even when it’s moving forward? Well this is moving forward while is still spinning It’s actually stopping when selecting reverse but that’s only when it not actually moving in reverse, when reverse direction works, shaft is still spinning
I’ll try that when I next get a chance to work on it. I think I can swap those 2 without removing trans
That’s not what I said. You do the test with the engine at Low Idle RPM and with the service brake fully applied. Under those circumstances the tractor does not move. How fast the shaft stops when you shift from neutral to any speed forward or reverse is an indication of how fast the clutches are engaging. As I said above with clutches in good condition the shaft should stop dead, not spin to a stop.
Ok so I had a few min today to test what you asked me to, but something completely different was happening today then yesterday. When I started tractor today, The shaft didn’t spin at all. I selected forward and it started to spin so I put it back into neutral, depressed service brake and then selected forward again and it stopped dead quick. I put it back to neutral again and shaft stopped. I selected reverse and nothing happened, shaft still didn’t spin. It seemed to try but wouldn’t spin. (This is without brake pressed) Selected forward again shaft only spins in forward when not pressing brake. When brake is pressed like I mentioned before it’s stopped dead again. Back to neutral and shaft wasn’t spinning again. Like I said I only had a few min to try and haven’t had a chance to swap valves yet either but isn’t it It wierd that shaft was constantly spinning yesterday except when brake was applied and then on and off today.
That sounds weird. When the engine is started (obviously the transmisson has to be in neutral to do this) then the shaft should start to spin immediately. The only reason I can think of for it not to spin is a lack of oil in the torque converter, and maybe elsewhere in the power train as well. Do you have a pressure gauge that reads up to around 500psi.? Before you start the engine again try hooking it up to test point P in the illustration below, run the gauge into the cab, then observe its behaviour carefully when you first crank the engine into life. Report your findings. FWIW I think the gauge needle should start moving as the engine is cranking and immediately it fires up the pressure should jump straight to about 400psi.
I agree. Sounds like you need to start from the beginning with a full transmission pressure test because you obviously have more problems than just calibration.
I wanted to see what the main relief valve pressure was doing on a cold startup before letting him loose on a full powertrain pressure test. That's coming a bit later depending on the results he comes back with.
Ok I’m back from hauling grain last whole week. Just put a gauge on that port… it didn’t move when cranking and I’d say took 4-5 seconds before it moved up to 400psi
With the type of oil you are using that pressure rise sounds awfully slow to me but I guess it depends how cold it was. What sort of ambient temperature was it when you were cranking it over.?
It’s in shop. 20 Celsius
I’d like to hear what @Mobiltech thinks but IMHO the pressure should come up faster than that with an ISO 32 oil at 20C ambient temperature.
What would that lead you to conclude though? Something wrong with the pump?
I also now swapped those 2 modulating valves and nothing new happened…. Still not backing up, shaft won’t spin either now unless your selecting fwd. well the calibration problem seems to be fixed I guess. It did go through its calibration and no codes are showing still.
I would expect the pressure to rise faster than that, especially with a pretty thin oil in the system and the tractor stored in a warm shed. The caveat here is that I don’t have personal experience of your climate conditions and would like to hear what guys based in your neck of the woods think. I can’t remember now. Have you removed the transmission pump suction screen to check if it’s clean.?
No , but I really should do that I suppose. I know filter was clogged up and bypassing here before I changed it. But I think it still wouldn’t explain why fwd works. I’ll look for that sump…
That is a long time for the pressure to come up. The type of hose you have on your gauge may affect it some. Seems like a weak pump or suction side problems. When you say the shaft stops in reverse but the machine won’t move in reverse I need some more info on that to make any suggestions. I would wonder if the forward clutch is not releasing.
Can you access the rear test ports for the transmission and do a trans clutch pressure calibration? That should be done before the clutch fill calibration.
See the attached. The mag screen is the really important one, but seeing as you have to drain the transmission to access the screens it will pay you to look at both. Take note of the colour/smell of the transmission oil. It should be clear and bright not dark & cloudy and definitely should not smell burned. Whatever you find in either screen please post photos.
Yes it’s all pretty accessible right now…. How do you want me to do that pressure calculation?
When you go into calibrations on cat ET you will see a line for trans clutch pressure calibration right next to fill calibration. ET will tell you to increase or decrease each modulation valve current setting to get the proper pressures on each clutch. This will also affect clutch fill calibration .
Just a quick update. The tc screen was clean enough. The mag screen though had a lot of ferrous material on it. And the transmission screen on back yielded enough evidence that at least one clutch pack was shot. Has plenty of clutch material around it. So right now we’re working on getting transmission out
I was afraid of that, and the presence of ferrous material is usually an indication of a hard failure where you are not going to get away lightly with just clutch packs and seals. Have you ever done one before.?
No I haven’t
Not certain but doesn’t a clutch pad have ferrous material in it as well. This stuff I’m finding on magnets doesn’t even feel like steel. Feels like really soft material….
On the back transmission cover at the bottom is a plate with 4 bolts holding it, the screen behind this will tell you if the clutch pack/s have failed in the form of black paper flakes, it's about a 4 to 5 hour job to pull out the transmission on a 6R by myself but I have done about 20 so I have all the simple to make tools to aid the task, if you get in a jamb I will help. p.s. the friction plates are soft paper type material.
Post some photos of what you found in the screens. Tony - can this transmission be pulled out using the fabricated tool that fits on the lower 6-bolt rear cover.? Because what the book says based on S/No looks awfully complicated for a newcomer.
Yes we removed that screen, defiantly have a clutch failure, just going trough youtube to try and teach myself how to remove it correctly, besides the exterior bolts and hoses and wires, Is there anything to remove on the inside of that cover before trying to separate it from dozer?
Check your message inbox. You may just have something interesting..... And I answered my own question that yes the FT-1897 tool can be used to "wheelbarrow" the transmission out of the rear case.
We’ve already got the trans out. Will post a pic in a bit. Now we just need to take it apart…
Again, check your messages......... BTW, she's farked, at least one clutch anyway.
I know. I did see those attachments on taking it apart. Thanks
While I think about it you’re going to need a replacement cooler (the existing one will be plugged with clutch debris) and probably a transmission pump as well. I can’t remember if you mentioned how many hours were on the transmission.
I don’t remember if I checked transmission hours yet. Will the transmission scavage screen not have kept most of the material in the transmission itself?
The screen only keeps out what we jokingly refer to as "tree branches, dogs, and small children". All the smaller particles will find their way through the pump to the cooler. If the transmission is anywhere close to the hours at which it would normally be overhauled then the recommendation would always be to fit a new cooler and pump to go with the rebuild. I would suggest to find the hours on the tranny first before making plans.
ET won’t connect anymore with transmission out. Not sure why not…
Anyways while I try find out the hours( I do believe I saw around 1200+ fwd hours when I was going through et awhile ago) do I need to replace “ All”pads and seals in there or just pads that seem shot? I imagine in a case like this a guy replaces them all maybe?
As a minimum I would put new piston seals in all five clutches plus new discs/plates. A lot depends on the hours on the transmission as to whether any hard parts need replacing.
Have you just removed the first section of the transmission from the Tractor, of so it's no good, you need to remove the complete lump with the bevel gear.
Yes I only removed that first part as shown in picture. Why do I need to remove the other part?
Could you point me to the pump in question please. I did find the cooler but there a couple pumps here and not sure which one your referring too
Wow, what a tremendous resource this forum, and the willing contributors are. Hats off to you!
Attached the instructions for removing the transmission pump.
In your opinion Nige, could these burnt clutches be my issue of it not backing up or that shaft not spinning when it should? Still don’t know how this all works yet
It all depends on which clutch (or clutches) you find burned up when you disassemble the transmission, but I'm pretty sure that a failing/failed clutch is the root cause of your problems. I would say the reverse (#1) clutch will most likely be the worst but there may also be others that are also in less-than-perfect condition.
Because from what I’m reading here, its the 2 speed clutch packs that are burnt here and the fwd and reverse clutches seem fine
Do you have the transmission disassembled yet.? Refer to the illustration below. 1 & 2 are REV/FWD respectively, 3, 4, & 5 are the speed clutches. #5 is 1st speed, back to #3 which is 3rd speed.
Yes, The first picture of that clutch on that weight set is the burnt one. The ones on the cast housing are not burnt. I still intended to change them but was waiting on parts before disassembling further. But my understanding is that clutch on bottom of second photo still in that cast housing cover is reverse clutch. And that seems perfectly fine
But maybe could be the piston seal I guess. Haven’t thought about that. I guess I need to take it all apart
Which clutch # is it based on the illustration that I posted above.?
It might assist with diagnosis of why it would not perform but you're going to be putting new piston seals in all five clutches anyway. While I think of it make sure that you get them the right way round on installation.
In the illustration it doesn’t name or number them It’s the one they’re removing in this step…
Sorry I missed where you sent that illustration a few msg ago. I was speaking to the pdf you sent yesterday. Anyways it’s the 3 and 4 that are burnt Correction, all the the speed cliches are burnt #3 to #5
That is not normal in my experience. The clutches that generally fail in normal operating conditions are either FWD direction or 1st speed, because they are the two clutches that carry the most strain when pushing a blade load of dirt. However if all three speed clutches are burned up to a greater or lesser extent then no transmission gear would ever work efficiently all the time. This could explain the intermittent nature of the "no gears" problem. On the basis of your results I would suggest new discs/plates plus piston seals in all five clutches. A complete reseal of the system that supplies oil from the mdulating valves to the clutches will also be needed. Any other parts to replace will depend on an inspection of everything in the transmission. Bearings, thrust washers, planetary bushes, etc, etc. If you are doing the job you might as well do it right because you won't want the pain of pulling the transmission out again. Additionally you will have a lot of cleaning in front of you, because the fine particles of burnt clutch material will have gone literally everywhere. I'm sure if you rub almost any part that you have diassembled it will feel "gritty" under your fingers. That is the effect of those small particles. Take care to make sure that all the tiny passages inside the control valve manifold assembly are throughly clean. Next come all the passages taking oil to the cltuch pistons in the planetary assembly. Last would be to clean out each one of the clutch modulating valves to make sure no particles are trapped in the area of the spools that could lead to them seizing - this would likely cause another clutch failure.
The other part needs to be removed to firstly clean out the transmission case that will be full of the Fluff bits and make your transmission repair pointless, plus the crap will get into your modulation valves and knacker them, these valves in the U.K. are near £600 a pop and soon get a Bill up sticking 5 in, so get the Bevel Case out before any work you do is wasted, plus to set up the 4 speed pick up's you need the big bit, to pull the front transmission bit out take 20 min's and is only worth doing if you have a sudden piston seal blow.
Yes as stated you will need to pull the axles , disengage the diff steer planetary from the trans output shaft disconnect the driveshaft from torque to trans and pull the transmission housing out. Then you can clean the tub. When you go back together install the trans all as one unit. I think the reverse clutch is the last one you disassemble in the housing. Make sure you disassemble each planetary carrier and inspect needle bearing and shafts. These fail quite often.
Ok I suppose I could pull the housing out too and clean it. So I just found a somewhat local tech out here that’s done plenty of these rebuilds and been talking to him at length on these symptoms. He’s leaning more towards it being the torque converter when I told him about the shaft not spinning all the time. I told him it took a few seconds to go to 400psi and he said he’s seen that in a number of instances and doesn’t think it’s the pump in my situation especially since we never had disks slip when we’re pushing piles of dirt in fwd. He can’t explain what’s happening in reverse though, as this D6T has a Hyd motor attached to the top on converter that he claims he’s never worked on one like that so I’m hesitant on pulling it out because it’s an incredible amount of work and I don’t think I can even go out the bottom as I’m not on blocks and might not have room to lay it down. I guess what I’d like is some more clarification on why that shaft wasn’t spinning sometime in neutral and in reverse but still had plenty power. Unless the clutch failure is real recent and happens just prior to putting it in shop that brought all of this on as we were using it extensively a few days prior to bringing it in.
I can however attest to the filter bypassing a already a week before bringing it in as the operator was asking about that transmission light blinking which I found out later that’s what it was..so I assume clutch failure didn’t happen all at once here
The shaft spinning and stopping incorrectly is a result of your knackered clutch packs, the common clutch to fail is 2nd speed and the forward pack, pull the bit of transmission out that you left in and then we will talk about the Torque, you pull 2 shafts out from the left side and 1 shaft out of the right, unhook the drive via the left side using a flat strip of steel with the end bent over 90 deg about an inch long, remove the drive spider and unbolt the round plate with 4 bolts and best of luck getting the lump out as you have made hard work of a simple job.
Well I swear I’ve checked and double checked all the steps here and the case still won’t separate even with the forcing bolts I’ve pulled the axle shafts, pulled out that splined coupler on the left side, it only moved about 1 1/2” but when I have someone turn the bevel gear and watch on left side it’s not turning along with bevel gear shaft anymore so I think it’s disconnected. I removed the drive shaft and that circle plate with 4 bolts. When I use the forcing bolts it moves out about 1/4” under a lot of pressure… and snaps back when removing bolts again. It’s hanging up somewhere and can’t figure out where. I’ve watched underneath at driveshaft when someone was forcing the bolts, It’s all lose there. I’ve watched in the left and right axle holes and it seems separated there as well. I don’t know what I’m missing.
All three of them.?
Yes all 3. And slid that collar left
Sounds like you have everything right. The sliding collar will only move over about an 1 1/2”. I wonder if the big O-Ring on the front collar is binding enough to hold it back. Some of them do take a fair bit of torque on the forcing bolts to come out. Just make sure you have all the mounting bolts completely out around the rear flange. Maybe post some pics of the rear of the machine. We all love a good rear end pic.
I really think the front is released because when I watch it as someone torques the bolts it moves rearward and then comes back when they take bolts out. Something binding it seams but I guess we could throw more bolts on it and keep trying I’ll post pictures
Push it back home and have another go of pulling the coupling off the left hand drive, you will need to leave some long bolts in the gear case as a guide, there is a measurement for the depth in to hook on and a depth to be clear. Did you remove the round plate behind the spider drive.
Yes I’ve got it out now. Must just have been that rubber seal that was holding it back. Took a lot of force with all 4 force bolts with longer thread to break loose. We’ve got it out and cleaning it now
Is there much debris in it.?
No. Just real dark oil for the most part.
Never in my life has the rubber seal been an issue, the drive was not pulled off enough chap, when you drain out all the oil from the back tray you will see enough crap don't worry, it takes a small speck of crud to stop the modulation valves from working, another important thing to do is drain down the Transmission filter case and clean the bowl out, the drain plug is under the fender, remove the plug from underneath before you lift out the filter cartridge, you are going to need the clean up filter fitted after this major mash up you have.
Just thought to say you will need a full set of springs as any nutty temp will make them weak or knackered, you can check the length and tension but hardly worth messing with, first speed clutch usually fails on the seal area only with the plate stack still good, 2nd speed clutch with its couple of plates is near always Stuffed, the clutch runs a higher pressure that first when calibrated I think its 370 psi.
Do you have a Part Number off the top of your head Tony.? I thought about it yesterday but when I looked at the standard filter element P/N I couldn’t see a cleanout element equivalent for it.
We're no longer using cleanout filters for powertrains. Extract from SEPD1230.
I was going to say that if he could get hold of the former 1R-1809 element from somewhere that would work as a cleanout element in the short term (first 20 hours or so). Either way after the rebuild i would suggest changing the filter at no more than 50 operating hours and do a filter cut on the old one to check for condition. I remember the confusion when that change away from 1R-1809 happened. We had machines that previously used it for both powertrai and hydraulics now needing separate Part Numbers depending on location.
3 weeks have gone by and no update or questions. Progress report.?
Still waiting on transmission. We decided to have it repaired by guys who do this for a living. Will update when we have it back up and running
So just an update here with not much progress yet. We got the rebuilt trans back and put it all together. Put in td4 oil and tried it. Won’t move… tq output shaft is spinning only on startup, when I try engage fwd or rev it stops spinning and won’t start again when going back to neutral. Get a code that’s not shown up before and that’s “torque converter output speed sensor intermittent/ erratic” . Shop that fixed transmission is telling me it’s had similar issues in older machine where it was just the speed sensor but doesn’t know for sure. Wondering what your guy’s thoughts were on it?
What exactly is the Code Number and suffix.?
673-2
Here you go. Transmission output speed sensor #2. See attached. However I will point out that provided transmission output speed sensor #1 is still giving a good genuine signal the transmission should function normally. That's why there are two sensors - redundancy. Question: Did the company who did the transmission repair/overhaul install the following new parts that are usually standard for any rebuild. If not is there any reason why.? 1. All five clutch modulation valves. 2. Transmission wiring harness. 3. Output speed sensors.
Yes they replaced all of that. I’ll go through this procedure and let you know what I come up with.. thanks
I’m sorry Nige. I gave you the incorrect code. It’s 672-2
Converter output speed. I should have picked up on that from your previous post. See attached.
So I’m getting 147 ohms between the contacts. Seems out of spec. Guess I’ll have to get a sensor
I had a similar problem years ago I had a dozer that would come to instant stop in certain gears I could see on et it was engaging 3 clutch’s in transmission packs in transmission turned out to be a bad position sensor on transmission control that’s just a thought that pops up in my head I think if Nige roots around a little there is a service mag on position sensors one last thought if drive shaft isn’t turning I don’t think you would have a signal from torque output sensor
I think he has ET. It might be worth monitoring the signal from the TC output sensor when the shaft is spinning in neutral. I had a quick look under LAY-prefix for this machine and nothing popped up. Need to dig deeper.... EDIT: Found it. It was for D6N tractors, so a fair way prior to the 6T.
You will need a little mirror on a stem and a tippex pen to set the sensor on the correct tooth contact space, the spec' is half a turn up from the tooth, I tend to go a bit higher to near 3/4 of a turn up off the tooth and lock them in place, be very careful of falling dirt as the sensor area is often well buried in crap.
Ok. So the shaft doesn’t spin long in neutral at all but for the short time it does, it doesn’t show torque converter rpm. But a question I’ve asked a few local guys without getting an answer, is the code popping up because the shaft isn’t spinning or can a faulty speed sensor cause it to not spin? Local cat dealer thinks I’m focusing to much on the electrical when it’s probably mechanical prob in the tc.
If you look at it with ET AFAIK the sensor should register a zero RPM reading when the shaft is not spinning. FMI02 is "erratic, internmittent, or incorrect" data. Are you seeing a wildly varying TC Out Speed value (for example) at Low Idle when the engine RPM should be somewhat stable.? If the TC Out speed sensor is faulting then IMHO that issue should be addressed first before moving on. It's what diagnostics are all about. Have you gone through all steps 2-4 troubleshooting procedure after you found the sensor resistance was out of spec to check the wiring.? That may turn out to be the case at the end of the day but, again IMHO, you need all the external factors corrected before condemning the transmission as somehow defective internally. You'd be kicking yourself for pulling a transmission that after removal was found to be operating correctly. Have you had pressure gauges on it yet.? I would suggest putting gauges on all five clutches at the same time so that you can get a good idea what is happening to all the clutches (not just the two that are supposed to be engaged) when any specific transmission speed is selected.
Cat speed sensors make a very small amount of ac current by reading the teeth passing the sensor I have seen them ground off by the gear seeing it turns in nuetral I don't think it would or could possibly stop the torque like Nige just said put gages on all 5 clutches look for more than two engaged at any gear nuetral will prob only have one
in ET it shows 0 rpm even the short period that’s it’s spinning initially at startup. So yes, there could be something up with sensor… but they’re telling me that shaft should always spin if the engine is running. If not, then in their opinion it’s either mechanical in the torque converter or pressure not getting to the torque converter or bypassing inside. They don’t think it’s something to do with transmission anymore
[QUOTE="PMW, post: 1285575, member: 220183]but they’re telling me that shaft should always spin if the engine is running.[/QUOTE] Remember that the value being measured is TC OUT speed, so something must be happening inside the converter to spin the shaft in neutral. I know it might be hard to quantify but do you reckon the shaft is spinning at give or take about engine RPM when the engine is idling.? What, even if the transmission is in gear.? Sorry that’s BS. Engage any gear at engine Low Idle RPM and that shaft should stop dead. Who are “they” BTW.?
I'm sorry I disagree with that if you are in nuetral and engine is running yes it will spin but if you put transmission in gear at low idle it will not it will also not turn when there is enough load on it to make stall speed you can see that at 3rd gear stall
If the shaft is not spinning in neutral either there is a torque problem or the trans is locking up somehow. The speed sensor has nothing to do with this. I am betting you have something wrong in the torque. If you rev the engine to full speed in neutral what is the rpm at. If it’s going to full rpm and not torque stall speed then you have a torque converter issue.
I went back and read all the posts. Burning all the speed packs out and putting a lot of load on it in reverse concerns me. I think prob is in what it is telling tran what to do need to check pressures in all gear combinations
Got it going! Not sure how or why but my helper accidentally pressed high idle buttton while in fwd and going through gears while I was checking pressures in back. We were through all the gears. Pressures all seemed to be at spec. But after he pressed that button off she went. I’ve since calibrated again, gone trough all gears in fwd and rev and I all seems to work as it should. Make of that what you will…. I didn’t read these last 3 msg from you guys till now so didn’t actually get a chance to look but speed sensor was reading as well I was speaking to it being in neutral then it should always turn…
Great news...!! Pleased for you because it's been a long road. Did you fill the tranny with the TO-4 oil in (Petro Canada.?) it that we talked about a few pages back.? Next suggestions. 50 hours on the tranny, change the filter and do a filter cut. Inspect for particles. Throw the gauges on it again if you feel inclined/have the time. Do you do oil sampling at your company.?
Yes I did fill with this oil I intended to change it after a bit of use so I will also cut it as well. But no, we don’t do oil sampling typically.
If you did oil sampling you could do a filter change + cut and take an oil sample. No need to change the fluid unless in the highly unlikely event that the oil was somehow contaminated. Think about it with respect to cost and time....... I forget where we were now but what did you do regarding the transmission pump and the cooler.?
We didn’t touch the pump seeing the initial pressures were ok, and no we didn’t bother with cooler either. Thanks to everyone who helped along the way. Really appreciate it!