What is leaking?
Serial 48A2699.....here is the leak....it that just a gasket leaking from around the flange?? Seems to blow out from the top??
I Might Also add....This Machine Has Been Down For 3 weeks Needing New u joints.....got it back together today....All my lines were fine....no leaks from the valve body I replaced....however....I now have a bad leak from the top of the starter flange....could this just be a seal?? I don't recall this leak before. Also.....could excess pressure from a failing scavenge pump cause this??
It's a wet flywheel. There's a gasket that goes behind the starter flange.
Possible scavage pump. Possible seals leaking excessively..
If u pull starter u and pull end cap off you may find it's full of oil.
This leak is not a small leak......it's blowing pretty good fluid......by chance worst case scenario.....what does a scavenge pump run cost wise.....and how hard are they to change?
Not sure on savage pump price. You need to run pressure test on torque convertor and other things first. Do you have a Manuel.? If not I suggest getting one or see if your local dealer will print you test procedures and pressure specs.
I have only worked on a few with this problem and it was torque convertor seals.
How hard are the tq converter seals to change?
I didn't think it was to bad with auto crane to lift everything out with. But is time consuming.
I hate too.....but I may call Cat on this one.....let a field tech come out and check everything over.....I know....Big $$$
First warm the machine up and do a torque converter stall for about 10 seconds and shut the machine off as soon as you pull it out of gear. Do not let it idle after the stall test. Next go under and pull the drain plug out of the converter housing and see how much oil comes out. Should be no more than about 2 gallons. If it's over that like 5 gallons then either the torque seals are gone or the scavenge pump is failing. Pull the scavenge pump and inspect it first. There is one other possible cause, I have seen people leave the little rubber balls out of the starter blank screw holes which will cause a big leak too.
It's your money but I would pull the starter and put a gasket, cost you 5 bucks might even be loose bolts. If you are worried about converter flooding you can drain it and see how much oil was in it, your dealer can tell you how much it should have. Go farther from there if you have to. OOps mobiltech beat me to it
Ok.....thanks for the info guys.....now if I change the starter gasket.....and it stops the leak....do I need to go ahead and check the converter....or just consider it good?
Has the torque converter been running hot? If it's overfilling it will heat up. Another thing that makes me wonder what is leaking is the oil looks like it's from the engine. Later Bob
No....it's hydraulic oil.....talked to cat....they asked if it was pulling good....i said yes.....He said most likely scavenge pump.....but who knows til i can get back out there to look at it
Don't think it's hyd oil! Whenever my tractors get abit of a dampning of oil in that department my luck never runs to a gasket!!. I currently have a D8 in that's got abit of a black sweat around the starter and the driver has been reporting an occasional heating up problem that goes away sometimes????? anyway it's caught a broken engine mount so decided to pull it down last week.I went to pick it up from where it's working and whilst I was waiting for the lowloader I was pushing the tip over for an hour or two.It was working strong and cool and was abit hacked off that I would have to pull it apart for just an engine mount.Anyway,TC tractors stripped the torque and we found it destroyed.I can't believe it was working at all.Have ran 9 of these D8H's and never seen this before although I have gone through a few torques which have only ever required resealing.The only destroyed torques I have ever seen is in D9H tractors.
well this was just a crazy deal......the machine wasnt running hot....had plenty of pull through the converter....ran fine.....it set for 3 weeks while I was waiting on parts....then when I got the new U joints put in......first start it developed this leak from the top of the starter flange.....ran fine before with no leaks???
Maybe jamming the driveshaft damaged something inside the torque. Later Bob
That very well may be....it crossed my mind.....that's y I'm gonna have cat come out I guess.....
by chance.....I got to thinking....the 7m1401 regulator valve group that I replaced was a salvage part....I didnt pull it down and check it....I just installed it and no telling how long it was on a shelf.......since I had no torque converter or scavange pump problems before I threw the U Joint.....is it possible for the regulator valve in the salvage part to be stuck....which would stop up hydraulic flow enough to build up excessive hydraulic pressure and blow from the path of least resistance....which happened to be the starter flange gasket???
Yes, 7M1401 is the transmission lube regulating control valve that also functions as a pressure relief deverter valve. It controls all the flow coming from the torque converter downstream of the oil cooler and torque converter outlet relief valve.. If the valve spool is stuck it would not allow the torque converter outlet relief valve to function and lead to high torque converter seal leakage and possible blown seals. Check last thing done first!!!
Would the high pressure ruin my torque seals....or would they be ok.....only ran it long enough to realize the leak from the starter flange?
Hopefully all it did was just overload the piston ring type seals causing excess leakage. Check/fix the valve and try again. Normal TQ inlet pressure is limited to 110-120psi outlet TQ pressure limited to 37-47psi so TQ saw at least double pressure. Lube oil pressure controlled to 10-13psi. Bob/Ont, need your input here.
I'm appreciate all your guys help.....u guys sure know way more than i do.....I guess to fix the spool valve inside the body....All I'll do is remove the upper and lower cap and make sure the valve and spring are moving freely....that's all I know to do with it.....The valve just floats on a spring it seems???
I also just gave her enough throttle to run.....to keep pressure minimal while checking for leaks..
Check your parts book. One end of the valve bore has a stop, the other end of the bore has the spool. Should be able to remove the cover and push on the spool to see that it moves.
Also make sure the hose from the scavenge pump to the trans housing did not get kinked when the ujoint failed. This would also cause torq flooding.
The Torque Inlet relief valve will blow at 140Psi and protect the converter. Use your parts book to check the new valve is assembled correctly. Later Bob
Thx Bob.....I was hoping to hear that!!!!!! And if the inlet relief valve did indeed release and save my converter seals(God bless the Cat engineer who put a relief valve in)......would the fluid come out on the ground...or would it blow into the torque converter housing? Cause I am only seeing fluid from the starter flange? Also....one the relief valve opens up......do you need a new relief valve or can you close it or something?? I am almost positive it is the valve body regulator now.....but we will see???
Torque converter leakage winds up in the housing. When the housing becomes to full for the scavenge pump to keep up the torque converter splashes the oil around inside the housing, often showing up as leakage around the starter, loss of power, foaming and possible over heating of the fluid. Relief valves normally reset themselves automatically.
Update......The valve body was good.....loose and functioning.....I did hear a considerable amount of gurgling from the torque converter housing......sounded like more than a couple gallons......so moving on.....is it possible that the reverse shock from throwing the u joint and busting the valve body has broken the scavenge pump?? Is the scavenge pump a gear drive?? It looks pretty easy to pull given what I've already done?? I'm running out of things to check.....I've gone through the whole thing????
Yes the scavenger pump is a gear drive gear pump. It is easy to remove and inspect. Just need a new gasket for assembly.
Check the scavenge pump suction strainer before pulling pump.
The only 2 things left are the scavenge pump operation or torque converter seals......and I don't think it's converter seals.....there's nothing else that would cause the to housing to fill up right??
You need to do some pressure tests, maybe Old Magnet has some pages from a manual he could post. Have you drained the torque yet? How much oil came out? Later Bob
It's on my list next.....to drain the converter housing.....we'll see how much fluid comes out.....I guess my order of operations is drain the converter housing....then check scavenge pump screen.....then the scavenge pump.....then after that......I don't know???
The Torque Converter impeller case can crack, the seals that you talk of are a steel piston ring style seal, the scavenge pump suction screen would have been my first task to check, the pump the next task, if you remove the converter make sure you remove the pump off the case first as it can be damaged. tctractors
After checking those items the next step is pressure tests. Here is the flow schematic and where test ports are located and test values. Note: For some reason the scavenge pump is not shown in the schematic but it is there and just pumps from the torque converter housing back to the transmission.
OK guys.....here we go...TC is flooding for sure....bout 10 gallons on initial drain....and of course NO leak at the starter flange once I drained the TC housing....but looks to be about normal after TC stall test. The screen was clean....scavenge pump looked OK.....I have no idea now????? 1st Pic.....initial TC drain 2nd Pic........drain after the TC stall for 60 seconds 3rd Pic........the screen 4th Pic.......Scavenge Pump.....
Open up the scavenge pump and send us some pic's of the insides. Later Bob
Its time to whip out the peddle shaft and control rods and pull the converter case from the engine, tie in the drive divider to the case to stop it falling out as you hoist it from its spot, then strip it out by firstly removing the divider drive thats the thing with 3 gears, pull out the drive shaft then drop the case down onto the converter, undo the case bolts and remove the seal plate, then lift the cover off the converter, undo all the bolts on the impellor and remove it from the turbine, then undo the stator and inspect the bearing set up, what would help is a few more pic's but there is nothing tricky in this job as the amount of parts are few, a pic of the bushings the drive shaft runs on also the drive shaft and the gear face that drives the scavenge pump would be handy, you dont need CAT to fix this item in lots of ways they are easier to do than a clutch drive transmission D-D. tctractors
So there's still a possibility it could be the scavenge pump??
Yes check it before pulling torque. Later Bob
It's already out so no reason to not disassemble.
Check the gear tip to housing clearance as well as side clearance. If it's much more than 0.004" it's considered worn out. I'd also recommend checking the torque converter outlet relief pressure at tap "E" before tearing into it. If pressure is low it will verify leakage. If pressure is high it can effect leakage....assuming relief valve is properly set.
Old magnet.....are you talking about the clearance between the face of the housing and the gear itself?? Cause it's a hell of a lot more than .004"???? In fact....The gear has at least 1/32" play movement in and out from the face of the housing??? Should it have this play in it???
In the photo's of the case drain test, after the first drain down of the converter was the oil topped up in the transmission case before the stall test??? I also thought in your comment that the scavenge pump "Looked Good" that you had it opened up to check, but I would be thinking that the torque needs work doing on it and you need to be fixing lift eyes to the case, as I have already said they (Torque's) are easier to do than the over centre clutch units, on the pressure check thing I only usualy fix a test point to the High pressure filter, then check the drive shaft stall for the transmission (Shaft stops spinning) then on the torque I know by the engine sound if the torque when on stall is lugging the engine down enough, plus the case flood level plug usualy confirms things, if you read CAT service books they have you chasing around with pressure gauges for nothing, a classic example is on a tracked loader hydraulics I will save you the details but 1 test point (main Pump pressure point) does the lot without all the messing about, good luck with the pump I hope it is the cause of your flooding? tctractors p.s. I work on D6C/D's and D8's near every week in the U.K. so I have a rough idea now how things should be.
I'd say that pump is well worn and needs replacement. Open it up and have a look anyway. A 4M5909 scavenge pump ranges from $274.74 aftermarket from Regal to about $1,500 OEM Also a 2S7920 is equivalent. Check Florin Tractor for price. Plenty of optional sources out there. http://www.machinerytrader.com/list/partssearch.aspx?partnum=4M5909 If you have to go in to the TC, tctractors is the man to follow.
I'll open it up and get pics up......I guess I'll go ahead and find a replacement and see if that fixes my problem before tearing into the tc. ....since it needs replacing anyway......
No, the clearances he's talking about are the internal "pumping gears". Unless he could tell by the play you described?
I'm gonna pull her apart......just as soon as I find my gear puller....I can tell u this.....when I twist the gear drive back and forth.....There seems to be a lot of clunking Goin on in the pump gears......not sure how tight of a tolerance there should be in there.....seems to me the gear mesh should be tight....but what do I know???? I'm new to this....
The pump gears are keyed, pressed and held in place by retaining rings so unless the gears have got loose on the shaft end play is a pretty good indicator of the wear inside. Gear tooth back lash is not a critical item. Pictures of the pump drive gear look normal.
Pics of the scavenge gears???? They look normal to me.....
The gear to housing tolerance was.004" or less.....however...here is a gear to gear tolerance with a .016" and a .010 together between the gear to gear......so .026" gear to gear???? What do you guys think??
What is clearance between the sides of the gear and the cover? Need to see picture of the housing w/o gears and the cover wear. Gear to gear clearance seems a little excessive but tends to be self sealing when operating. This is a low pressure pump 18gpm @ 10psi test at 2480 rpm so there is not a lot of back pressure to seal the mating gears.
Non T, just thought I would say as I dont know your mechanical skill position, that the oil is pumped around the outside area of the gears, as the gears come into mesh the oil is pumped out making flow, the scavenge pump usualy has trouble with the Woodruff key drive within the gears (Half moon Key) the common failing being the screen blocking up starving the pump, the pump would be well up for a replacement unit< I usualy buy the cheap jobs and change the bushings for CAT bushings on D8's on your tractor a bolt straight on non O/E will be fine, the side plate surface wear is the first thing to check, then the bushings followed by the feeler gauge test if all the other points are good, so now you should be able to make a good judgement on the oil pump, it might be you are in luck and this pump replaced will do the trick on getting things good for you, if not I am building up a torque next week out of odds and ends from the "Healing Bench" I will be posting a few snaps in shop talk on a thread I have started on sprocket stuff, but to pull out the torque from your tractor is around 4 hours work now you have half the bits off. tctractors
I suspect you have a torque rebuild in the cards but try this. Put pump back together and install. Then put all of the drained oil back into the trans. Put a 5 Gal bucket under the drain hole sitting inside a much larger bucket. Start the tractor and stall the torque for one minute and then throttle down and shut off the engine. Come on back with how much oil you have in the bucket. Then I will give my opinion on the torque's condition. Later Bob
Tc....that makes total sense.....I'm not sure there's anything wrong with this pump?? Does it look like it needs replacing to you guys?? And I'm afraid ur right bob.....Unfortunately. ....I think I'm gonna drop my pair and pull the converter.....u guys recommend pulling tc out the top.....or bottom?
The pump cover does not show much sign of wear....so where did your 1/32" movement go. Eye balling is not a complete check. Mike the gear widths and depth mike the housing and get actual numbers.
That pump is worn some but I don't think it's enough to cause the flooding you have I always drop the torque out the bottom . You can leave the steering linkage and pedals alone that way. Drop it onto a creeper or plywood and roll it out. All you need is a come along with a long travel chain. Make sure it's got enough travel before you start. You may want to run a couple more tests as bob said before you drop it .
On removal of the torque, the method I most often use is from the top, this is usualy my only option due to site issues and the state that I get the task, if you can run the tractor up on timber and can steam clean things tidy then dropping the chunk down can save you some work, but its easier by myself to go out the top, the cab style also has a bearing on the removal method,once the case is removed its time to clean up the in-frame area and check the engine mountings etc, with the tractor up on timbers the from the downward task is o.k. but its better done with 2 people, 1 up top and 1 under the tractor, dont forget to tie in the divider drive using the case bolt holes, also the drive shaft needs pulling out as soon as possible if you take things out the downward route, if you pull it from the top things are somewhat neater as the shaft stays in but the divider still needs strapping in. tctractors p.s. if you do another check as Bob said, before you start the run test drop a gallon or so of oil in the torque case so the scavenge pump cops a drink.
I guess it's all in what you're comfortable with. When I take them out the bottom I do it alone without timbers and I leave the shaft in. I lower it onto a sheet of plywood and then pull the sheet out with the torque on it.
Mobiltech, the shaft can drop out as the case gets winched down flat so I pull it out to save it hitting me, I have done plenty from underneath the tractor so I can recomend the next 1 you do try driving it on a few timbers as it saves you struggling a good bit, I usualy go for the top lift as its the best way, as for the plywood thing I was doing that 40 years ago. tctractors
mobiltech, my comment about things better with 2 people if you drop the case down was aimed at the man with the D7E, as I work by myself without the U.S. style service truck set up, are you talking about D7E torques or D7 High Drive lumps as they drop out through the bottom easy with the lift eye in the cab roof, the 48A tractor comes with a fair sized case that takes some fiddling down and tipping flat??? this is the point the shaft drops out so I sort of wonder at your comment??? D8H-K series tractors are as tricky to lower, tilt, and pull out so take it from me try sucking them out through the top, its the best way unless you drive em up on timbers. p.s. any chance of a few pic's of your torque removal setup, tctractors
Here is a torque that is currently leaking abit around the starter.it also overheats from time to time.no shortage of powere though!
Had a torque getting warm towards end of the day about 5 or 6 years ago on this tractor.I didn't fancy taking the cab off this particular tractor so did it through the bottom.My main mistake was digging the pit abit too wide but it had the advantage of being able to walk under it.There was no crawling and the aches and pains to go with it.In a few hours it was in the back of the trailer.When the new one was installed it was totally shrink wrapped to avoid contamination only being unwrapped once it was hanging on the hoist.This job can be done in a yard on timbers however the tractor currently receiving attention has had the cab removed to access flywheel removel as it has a broken engine mount.To be fair,taking the cab off is better if you have a suitable crane.
Actually I was talking about D7F, G models. I just put a chain around the canopy or thru the cab doors and hook a come along to it. It is easier with two guys going back in for sure. If you have someone who can crank the chain lift up and down is all you need. I have tied the shaft in . Timbers make it easier if you have them. If i do it it the field I blade a bit of a dip in the ground or park a track on a bit of a ridge that is if the machine is mobile. I just don't like kneeling in the cab to do levers and pedals. I do most of the work from sitting under the machine I do trans R and I the same way. Flywheel and drive gears all done sitting on a creeper. I find it difficult when you get the trans or torque up to the platform or in the cab to get it out of that area.
Mobiltech, The 48A series tractor has the 4 pot motor with a fair sized torque case that needs a bit of jiggling out the bottom, do you tie in the shaft to stop dirt entering the hole? as I just pull out the shaft and stuff a half used bit of rag in the hole taking only a few seconds, to dig a groove out to straddle the tractor over in the U.K. usualy means that when you come to bolt things back together you need "Flippers" as the groove is now a pond, as for the flywheel job I just drop down through the top and spin off the flywheel etc (after removing the timing pointer) stood up with no crawling about underneath, the peddle shaft and rods are not hard to whip out, anyhow we are all different and all do things our own way. what I need is a few days off work to do a few jobs on my own CAT's tctractors
If the scavenge pump is bad or converter is failed, the converter temp. should be getting hot. If your not seeing excessive torque temps, its probably starter gasket or the rubber balls missing.