A D8H with completely new undercarriage (track frames removed, rollers, idlers etc ), and new track sets. I’d like to pick up jobs with this machine, any operators previously and currently, care to share how they would quote a job? Also if you did account for track wear/depreciation how would that effect your cost/pricing? As far as trucking, that just get stapled on to the bill,…. Open to other opinions if there is a better way I’d greatly appreciate it. Thank you Merry Christmas.
When I worked in the small coal mines I figured out the cost per hour to run through record keeping and experience. Once you have an idea of how many hours the undercarriage will last, it is just simple math and attention to the cost of replacement. In our operations using sealed track chain and pin and bushing turns at mid life, the undercarriage was good for at most 3,500 to 4,000 hours and at worst 2,500 to 3,000 hours. In those days it cost around $25,000 to purchase all the components and a weeks work for two people to replace it all. Figure $30,000 total cost and go from there. Now days you might be looking at twice that for a dealer to do the same job.
Thank you! Yeah now it does cost more that for sure, and that’s if they can get the stuff. I’ve been lucky, either had it or it was available. I agree with your approach. Time to keep better records now that it may leave our farm. I appreciate your insight on the lifespan of the UC and having the bushings turned.
Bushing turns now days may or may not make sense. It's just another factor in managing the use and cost of a machine.
For me I’d have to have them shipped the next state over. Not sure anyone around here does that stuff anymore. Be about 3 hours away to get them to a track shop. Some local people I’ve talked to say they ran them for $400/hr plus trucking at first I was thinking that seemed high but then the price for the UC started to change my mind.
Here in the UK,I’ve decided 25 years ago that it’s not cost effective to turn bushes and pins on any D8 or D9 in my operation. However,I change out segments quite often in high abrasion conditions and am very happy with the extra life I get out of my bushings.
I'm going to state the not so obvious opinion, and that is you should be trying to sell that 8H, and looking for an 8N that isn't so long in the tooth. Not that the 8H is a bad tractor, it's just maintenance on a flat-track is basically unaffordable in this day and age, and parts might be getting few and far between. One breakdown with that old girl and you are backwards everything you have or might have made, plus likely more.
I'm starting to think that way more and more with my ancient old stuff
Maintenance on any high drive is a whole lot more than most any oval track. Engine parts for an H might be a problem but there were so many made that there should still be plenty of repairable used parts available. It would be a good idea to check into torque converter and transmission parts for the H. Final drive stuff and people with the experience to repair them would likely be the most obvious failure to kill a D8H. When you think about it though, there are people who buy and restore D2 machines all the time.
Buying and restoring for playtime is not the same as hiring out. Not to mention the obvious fact that we are talking about a 40 ton tractor, not a 4.
No such thing as a D8N that isn't long in the tooth either.
Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than the plain and simple fact that if you lose a final on this old 8 in the middle of a job, you are going to be in trouble. A transmission swap in the field would be pretty straightforward on a high drive, and you don't have to worry so much about dead axles, sprocket presses, bevel gears, and people with the experience to accomplish the job.
Completely agree, but still a better option IMO than any H. And I still run and like a 7G. I'm in the same boat.
Some good comments here chaps. I’ve owned lots of D8H and D8K tractors over the years and I love them.Parts are relatively simple and cheap to buy as there are loads of non oem manufacturers around selling them still. But,I sold my last 2 D8H tractors back in 2018.They we’re in sharp order and working around 500 clock hours every year with very few problems other than constant fiddling and tweaking with them. Any issues with finals and bevelcasings etc would immediately require highly skilled fitters with all the special tooling.These chaps are now an extreme rareity in the UK and are disappearing for ever. Also,some parts are now hard to source in a hurry.Years ago,there would be breakers yards all over the country with tons of old cat parts allways stocked.Today,they are almost gone. Our Cat dealers are not interested in helping out customers in any way like they were years ago and if you intend to run an old D8H seriously,then I would reccomend you buy at least one more as back up. I’ll tell you this……..running 2 old D8’s is a headache,but only running one is an absolute nightmare.
Exactly. It's finding qualified personnel to help. Final drives in particular.
I only run plant as abit of a sideline to get me out of the office,and I’ve had to move with the times to keep getting the sort of jobs I like. Almost nobody here in the UK has the intelligence to hire an old D8H and pull scraper that will bring their projects in well under budget.They simply can’t get past using a digger,dump truck and a D6 even though I can move their muck at upto half the price.They allways look at the fuel burn and nothing else. I only survived with the old d8 and boxes because I’ve been at it for 30 years and allways get enough work that I wanted. But,if I was looking to start up in the game today,an old D8H would be the very last machine I would buy. Sorry for the negativity,but that’s my opinion
That’s a great point, I might add though… I’m my maybe small group of D8H owner/operators/service(r’s) I have not heard of the H/K failing like that. Yeah the oval track is old. But still has it’s pluses over high tracks, Deere still runs oval on their biggest dozers. It’s a simpler design and I think historically there are less Catastrophic failures if serviced to spec. There is a good point though in selling now and moving to something modern, and not as big and clunky. I’m kinda a sucker for the H and K. I think Cat made these very well, if kept up with servicing and addressing maintenance issues as they come and not ignoring, the H/K is a great reliable dozer.
Thank you! Nice looking matching on your profile. Do you charge differently for jobs that deal with Rock and ripping vs, jobs that don’t?
These days I have much newer Cat dozers that I use on certain jobs if I fancy doing abit to earn some money. They are in good order and considered relatively new.As a result,I get frequent enquiries and turn lots of deceant contracts down.This was never the case with the old D8’s.Apart from existing customers,very little new work ever came knocking on the door. I suspect the OP may have the same problem if he was looking for hire work for his old D8.It’s one thing using them on your own contracts (they are pretty good) but another thing entirely trying to attract new hire customers
Definitely seems to be the case running and old equipment. I think most people like to just walk around old H’s and talk about the glory days rather then hire them out .
Yes,each job is priced separately. I’ll enclose some pics of my last D8H tractors that I sold back in 2018. They were nice units and I got as much money for each one as you could find some old D8N’s for. They are awesom machines built by a great company,but they are all 50 years old and a very severe final drive failure could be the end of them. I should point out that they currently belong to a chap that still works them.He has over 20 of them,so spare parts will never be an issue
D8H Cattle. I think you’ll like these sir
My current line up is a low houred D8T that I’ve had from almost new and a high houred old D9T.I also allways have a spare old hired in D9T as back up.It allowes me to fix them at my leisure rather than let people down.
Definitely jealous! Beautiful machines. Can tell they were very well taking care off. You and a YouTuber “JayPay dirt” would get along. He runs old Cats and similar scrappers. I’m sure the chap who bought yours can say they were the best out of the 20 he owns. I really appreciate your advice and insight!
Thankyou. Yes,I follow J Paydirt and very much respect him. I’m keen to see how he gets on with those 2 new D9H’s he’s bought. As for advice,all you can do is read other people’s opinions,then form your own and do what you think is right for you. One of the most profitable jobs I ever did was getting a 24 hour a day contract on a coal mine for one D8. I put 5 old D8H’s on the job and kept one going 24/7.It gave me loads of time to maintain or repair the others and I made a good few coins. I’m those days D8H’s were about £20k each and the five stood me at £100k.At the time,a new D8R would have been £380k and still only earning me a similar rate,so the old D8H’s were a sounder investment at the time
Best looking 68a's I've ever seen, I was surprised a while back when you said you'd moved them along. The newer looking machines though, makes business sense in so many ways. Is your friend TC still fixing the big iron up your way? Great pictures, cheers.
Hi John. Yes,selling the last 2 of the older D8H’s was a sad day,but a sensible day.I was a getting abit too old to be mauling about with them and TC was one of a few people that pointed that out to me. Yes,the newer ones do give trouble abit,but almost zero compared to the older ones.My tool kit is rusty these days! I still do business with TC and will Infact be ringing him next week about a matter.
8s still have a place as a Heavy Use/User machine, for the individual trying to use one as a singular business are a bit of a stretch. Cost to maintain, repair parts acquisition capability, the costs to transport as are so large and heavy does tend to outweigh the end result paydays. Rails on a 6 or 750 Deere are roughly 2/3 the cost last just as long, weight is still high but NOT to a 8s level. Get into transport permits and another can of worms opens as does costs of maintenance of the tow machines unless have it hauled then have those costs rolled into hauling. Local has a Antique Cable 8 he uses with a Cable pan still builds ponds (small Lakes) and Larger Small lakes (larger Ponds) where may be on a site for a month or two, pays reasonably but then has to pay to move the machines off the site when complete to then look for other bids. He has decided the 8 is getting too old to continue as has he.
Old iron is problematic for any high production operation. My issue is at what age is something considered old. I have done appraisals for trade values on hundreds of dozers and put together repair numbers for nearly all of them. Both models are old, both models will have similar issues with drive trains and ancillary systems. Oval track D8s have the issue with final drives. High drive 8Ns have the issue with undercarriage cost. You can make either model work for production but both are going to cost you in repairs and lost production. Here is a hint on value. Both machines will be worth the cost of a new undercarriage less actual depreciation on the undercarriage as a whole. An oval track machine with a 50% undercarriage will be worth about 50% of that replacement cost. The high drive 8N will be worth more with the same 50% undercarriage only because it costs so much more to replace that undercarriage. Is one any better than the other? That is a question of experience. That's why Nicky 68's opinion carries so much weight here.
I think you over value my opinion John and have perhaps had too much Christmas sherry! In terms of pulling scraper boxes with either a D8N or D8H/K,I couldn’t say as I’ve never pulled a box with any hi drive tractor.My gut feeling is that my D8T would never pull a 463 in heavy going or a 435 in soft wet going as good as an old 68A or 22A or old 155 Komatsu. However,I feel my D8R and D8T would rip rock as well as any 155 or D9G/H. As for comparing a D8N to a D8K,well I don’t really know the answer. If I recall,the D8N was around 275 hp?.The D8R was belting out 335 hp?
Thank you all this is all great stuff. I really appreciate it. We got the D8 because we started to harvest large wood lots to turn/reclaim into pasture at our farm. Have the dozer, and the Fleco root rake that goes with the 46A’s. The jobs I’d want to pick up I think would be more land clearing type. Seems to more of that work than really anything else one would need a D8 for around my area. We got lots of work to do on our own property might just stick to that after considering the above discussion . The trucking hasn’t been terrible, most outfits will do 125/hr when I take the blade off. 175 if I leave it on with an escort. I’d probably only pick up 10+ acres jobs with in 2 hours or so of home. Was thinking $1000 per acre… seemed like easy math till I started thinking track life and the $ I have in the new UC. Bought it with a fairly used UC so I always new that expense was coming. I’ll balance the books by increasing the value of our own land, maybe see a profit by increasing the value of someone else’s land. Thank you again everyone, you guys have a lot my experience with this type of stuff.
How can you overvalue the opinion of a man who is spending his own money accomplishing something?
A humble man is a great man. Thanks for being part of this community, Nicky. What John was trying to say is when guys like you, TC, and I'll put Scrub into this category, too, are talking, a man needs to shut up, listen, and learn. Nothing trumps experience. Nothing. Thanks for taking the time to post here.
Hi I have a Cat D8R with 5400hrs. I need to replace the undercarriage for the first time and it looks like you have great knowledge. What would you recommend for a brand? Do you have pricing for a complete undercarriage and what's the average life out of the bottom that you're seeing? I was going to go with Cat bottom but after reading one of your posts that might not be the best route? Thanks!
It’s never a short answer sir……. I’ve had various Cat undercarriages on my D8’s and they’re good. But,they’re not that good. It’s a million dollor question,but my experience is that a Cat undercarriage has consistently cost me more per hour than non oem manufacturers when you look at them very closely. That’s my best answer I can give after 30 years of paying the bills on D8 undercarriages. However,my own experience is much less with D9’s and I can’t give you a straight answer at this time. As for your D8R (an awesom tractor by the way) you have many variables to consider,but unless you’re ripping hard rock (that should really be done with a D9 or D10 anyway) I’d recommend a non Cat undercarriage for you to achieve the most cost efficient and profitable solution. I hope that helps. P.s a pic of your D8R would be lovely
I currently have a set of ITM chains and sprockets on a D8T.At 700 hours they had broke even with Cat on cost per hour(in other words,I could have afforded to throw them away after 700 hours).They are currently on 1750 hours and still in good shape,so they are currently less than half the hourly running cost than my Cat chains.I fully expect them to totally laugh in face of Cat in longevity aswell. However,the Cat rollers and idlers on that D8 just keep on giving and giving at 3750 hours.I’ll be replacing them with ITR brand and they’ll have a tough act to follow. As for D9’s, I have one D9T with perhaps 70% wear on them and I’ve had one Cat idler shear the shaft into,and one collapse the bearing two weeks ago.Not impressive. Yet,I’ve another D9T hired in with a undercarriage that was shot when it arrived.I only drove than one myself and I’ve run it a futher 500 hours this year beyond what I thought was possible and it’s only just snapped a link the same day the other bloody D9 blew the idler!! I caught the link in time and put it on the lowloader last week.
Do not know if worthy Company I am working for is using ITR with good results, cost is a little less than 2/3 cat for full UC Rollers Idlers Segments Rails All Bolts and Shoes. Have asked and service hours is close to same dirt pushing.
Here are a few pics of that hired in D9 I squeezed every last bit out. Please understand it’s just a tractor that’s passing through and was allready buggered when it came in. I’ve been careful not to send the cannons out beyond their spec.The bogies were beyond help anyway and will be getting replaced next month. I wouldn’t recommend running my own D8 or D9 this far. It’s a Cat undercarriage and I really don’t believe I could have a taken a non Cat undercarriage as far down to destruction as this. I suspect an ITM or Berco,and certainly DCF/DCR undercarriage would have snapped and collapsed way before. Could be wrong though
A very worthy comment DMiller. I have very good things to say about ITR tracks.I also have very good customer service from them too. I also rate ITM undercarriage parts even more,but their importer went bust last year and are no longer currently available in the UK that I’m aware. Cat have got complacent and very conceited over the pricing of their GET products.I’m not complaining about all their pricing for parts etc,as they are still a world leader in quality and value for money in my opinion,and still just about retain some very high quality staff at Finnings UK. Going down hill though,as many main dealers are. Times change.
I'll get you a picture next week just looked through my phone and had none . How much was Cat bottom vs the ITM? I'm expecting to have to pay about $50k for the whole thing.
I’m not sure how our UK prices compare to different parts of the world especially in this Covid world. Do you need a complete undercarriage? These Cat rollers have seen 2 sets of rails out so far.
I’ll be replacing the segments next week and probably the 2 rear idlers. In the UK,ITR segments are £440 both sides.Cat are £950. ITR idlers are under £900 each. Cat general duty idlers are £1600 each. Cat heavy duty are £2700 each. According to the parts book,the actual idler shells and shafts are same part numbers for general duty as they are for heavy duty. It appears to cost another £1100 each idler for heavy bearings and seals? Go figure
I just bought set segments to get me a little more time because bottom was skipping and I didn't want to break anything. The cat segments for both sides were $2,000
$2000 US ? Ouch,they are expensive for sure and not any better than the ITR at around $600 US dollars? I made that mistake before too
This is generally as far as I like to take segments.There’s still plenty of life on them,but they soon start to chop into the bush if you’re not careful. You’ll get surprisingly more life out of your bushes by replacing cheap segments throughout their life. I allways get 3 sets of segments out of a set of bushings
A new set of ITR segments I fitted on the D9 earlier in the year. It’s cheap running costs
Good to know thanks for the advise!
Just wondering in your operation, do you get the grousers relugged?
No.The price of labour these days makes it too expensive to turn bushes and rebuild grousers etc. It’s worth bearing in mind that,even though the grousers themselves can be rebuilt to new standard,the track plates don’t get touched.The cleats wear thin and as the plate travels around the idler,the gap opens up a fair bi more.This can allow gravel or lumps of rock to get trapped and then crush itself out once the track straightens out.This may cause premature wear of the pin and certainly excess stress on the link. It’s ok if you’re just running in muck all the time,and I’ve done it over the years on my D8 and towed scrapers,but never on any ripping tractors
Nicky, do you have any pics of these "ripping" jobs? Here where I'm from, we have dirt as far deep as you ever need to go.
If you gotta run junk, you gotta have a lot of it.
I’ve not got many pics of them working,but here’s a mix of D8 and D 9 shanks in the ground
That's the first set of photos I've seen where someone tilted the shank so the tooth was pointed into the direction of travel. All the operators I have been around point that tooth straight down and leave it that way. Instead of wearing the point sharp, they wear it blunt. We were continually having to turn the teeth over to get as much wear as possible. Management at that time didn't care. A tooth back then was about $90. A bad operator could wear them off in less that two hours. I've seen some of them only last 3 passes in hard sandstone.
I would imagine caterpillar machines with elevated sprocket and tiny idlers the gap between grousers opens up a lot more. But this is getting maximum life.