Hi All ,The trans pump on my 8k was just weeping a bit of oil from the body housing seals.After striping down the bearings on the drive gear are a bit rough not so bad on the other gear though.How can l draw out the old bearings? The service manual does not mention getting them out just driving new ones in with a service tool.The manifold end has a little wear on the face but only where the drive gear runs.Any thoughts appreciated .
How deep of wear? might be an issue with the drive gear spline wear forcing the driven gear back into the pump. Changing the drive gear is best but many just grind the end of the pump splines. Might work might not. Later Bob
On the blind hole bearings try filling 3/4 of the depth with grease, find a close fitting shaft , put it on top of the grease and smack with your favorite hammer, the grease should drive the bearing out . Notice I said "should"
Yair . . . Small bearings, even the outer of a needle cage will yield to a bit of weld on the inner surface, it usually doesn't take much if you let it cool right out. Cheers.
If the housings are good ill Rebearing And seal But usually if there was hydraulic pressure problems the housing is damaged ether radial or Thrust. And the Price of new pump is usually cheaper than down time of future problems if pump is marginal. Just my 2 cents
This pump is best swapped out as non gen CAT pumps are very low cost even the CAT Classic stuff, you would be well advised to drop off the transmission belly guard and remove the complete suction line and bolted on pipe housing (4 bolts) and check for any blockage inside the area, its usualy stuffed full of brake band junk etc, the suction hose is clamped to the side frame so look for any wear holes on the hose, its worth getting a new hose fitted to the 2 ends as this item is a great cause of transmission damage etc, the gear/hub that drives the pump in the Aux' can be swapped 180 deg to put a new wear face to things, its a bit of work but something I always try to do, you need to also fit new O rings on the screen fittings and pop out the torque screen to have a "Look", the main trans filter has a drain plug at the bottom needing removal before the filters get tugged out, its all good fun in the frost??? tctractors
Sounds like its going to be a bit bigger job than l thought! Think l might put the pump back on then drive it on to some timbers and over a hole to get under to do the pipes.Oil needs changing anyway.Then with new oil and everything checked out under there go back to the pump and if they are not to expensive treat it! Thanks for the help.
The D8 is at a good hight to work on as it stands on hard ground, driving it up on timber is not realy needed, to help drain the oil from the transmission I fit a hose to the filter blead blug on the lid of the trans' filter, then with the pipe placed into a drum start the engine and let it pump out the oil it can pump, then this will leave around 6 to 7 gallons to drain out via the loosening of the suction hose clamp bolts firstly, then drain the 2 pockets under the steering clutch case, you will need to leave it dripping over-night to get the last gallon out, the torque case should hold little oil way less than 5 gallons, poke around in the 2 drain pockets under the main steer case for junk? tctractors
Thanks for the tips.Had a closer look at the pump today and there is a bit of wear on the splines of the drive gear.l can see now how it thrusts forward into the cover housing to wear the face.The female end on the tractor looks OK. Pumping the oil out in to a drum is a great idea! Its always been a headache try to get a drum big enough under the tractor! Have not priced a new pump yet.Still in shock of needing new tracks on the D6R,might still have to drop a link.Now need to build up enthusiasm to start rolling around under the D8 dropping belly plates! Will let you know how l get on .Jon
To drop out and re-fit the belly guards I use 2 shortening chains and 2 pull lifts (lever lifts 3/4 ton) with the chains and lifts hooked onto the track plates from 1 frame to the other, it makes things safe and very controlled as you dont even have to get under the tractor just work through the track and frame, I always do it this way as usualy I am working in muck so trolly jacks etc are no use, the more you do the faster it becomes to rattle them up and down, the chains pass under the guard to the short set hook on the pull lift with 1 set close to the E/Beam and the other set about 2/3rds or "less" towards the beam as the guard needs to lower then rock forward towards the E/Beam to set free, I also try to use lengths of timber if possible to push bar things as I need as it slips less than bars. Work safe as the World needs D8 Ump's tctractors
Yair . . . tctractors method works good . . . to get them down I just used to bash a couple of pieces of 4x2 or what ever to thomb them in place, get all the bolts out and just bash the thombs or drive or tow the tractor away and let them drop. On some models you could drop a chain down past the drive shaft to a lifting eye or a length of chain welded to the inside of the guard . . . most Australian tractors had canopies with lifting eyes in the roof. On some hydraulic tractors I made cables to lift the engine belly plate with the rams . . . as the blade went down the belly plate went up . . . worked good on 9's . . . I think you had to poke a bar through a track link to get the right angle with 8's. I'm talking G's and H's of course. Cheers.
Jon,at about 180 quid for a new tranny pump,just put one on and let it develop.it it fails prematurely at 300 hrs,you can afford it!.Then go pulling the belly plates as these guys suggest because the main suction hose will be toast,all the o'rings will be hard and drawing air in.Pulling the screens will reveal more porus seals and bits of brakeband etc and you may decide to go pulling it apart,but don't worrey about it just yet.I am genearally happy to put a tranny pump on a D8 at least once a season because new pipework,labour,oil loss far outweighs the cost of a tranny pump.
As for belly plate removel........(I have just come back from the pub...)TC's method is the only way to do it,however Scrub's is just as interesting.My way is abit more cowboy style,I slacken all the bolts off with the big bar then loosen me belt buckle and try and squeeze through the trackframe to remove the last 2 nuts causing it to drop uncontroleably onto the wishbone,then I climbI under and boot the thing off onto the deck.I then steel all the money out of my childrens piggy bank and pay TC to put it back on properly.
I get a kick out of you guys across the pond. I've never worked on anything bigger than a 7H. On my Komatsu's the belly pans were hinged. Drop down one side, then you could dig the ton of muck out to lighten up to get down the rest of the way. I did have to torch out over half the bottom roller bolts, then tap all the holes on my 7. You guys that work on these tractors for a living, you have my utmost respect. :beerchug
I also have had little tipple and have taken on board all advise and plan to go out all guns blazing tomorrow and set about it.Will let you know how I get on if I still have all my fingers !
Stuff it John, just poke a ting tong pump on it and stick a pressure gauge in the plug on top of the transmission filter, do a stall test not forgetting that the tractor will drive through the brakes in 1st cog on full bore, count your fingers making a mental note to try harder in the better weather, it can get tough going pulling things to crap this side of May, I seem to have copped the bigest load of crap jobs this winter ever, its taken some sticking due to the bleak locations and the fact that I seem to be working on Crushers "To Much" although I stripped out a CAT cross shaft and blew off the clutches on Wednesday, 200 mile trip and a lot of work to get things done in the day? keep your gloves on pal tctractors
Jon,I hope today works well for you.I have to refit a new tranny pipe on the D5 next week ,then back on with it's belly plate.The D8's have been home since Christmas and have almost no required work for a change.One had a sticking winch plate and another needs a starter motor but it seems to be ok at the moment for some reason. Today,I will be messing about on the water in Chester in a putt putt boat then onto a nice pub somewhere for Sunday lunch and a pint.I will think of you under the D8.......
You would need an ice breaker to play around with a putt putt around here! Depending on who you go by it is either -2ºF or +2ºF here! But that pint at the pub does sound good!
Hope everyone had a good Sunday.I had a recreational spannering day.Got the rear belly plate of without to much greif.A bit of heat on one of the nuts helped shift it.Lowered it down with a trolley jack and then draged it of the wishbowns with a tractor .Knees are a bit tender and a bit of soil in my ear but otherwise OK! Drained oil from the torq and that was as far as I got.I have a plan to try and loosen the pipes underneath to let the oil out of the trans case then tighten back up when the drum is full hopefully without an environmental disaster. Its going to be a cold oil drop because I did not other putting the old pump back on.Its hopefully going to be a worthwhile exercise,TC was right there was a bit of oil weeping from the hoses underneath!Will get back to it later in the week Jon
The big suction hose upto the pump cops a wound easy, this does not mean it will leak oil it just sucks air with the scavenge pump doing its best to prime the transmission pump for a short while, this is often the cause of trans' pump knackering up with a slow transmission responce from first start, the trolly jack thing can be a bit tricky on the belly guard task as the guard needs to lower some to clear the E/Bar (check the pin in this) then the guard needs to go forward some to clear the wishbones, using the chain thing sorts this task sweetly, anyhow the crap bit is done bar the oil mess getting that 100 gallons of fluid out ( its not that much realy it just seems like it) oh and dont forget the steering case drains under the clutch packs. tctractors
Hi Jon,My local Finnings hose repair guy is extremely reasonable on the pen where pipes are concerned.Get them to come out and properly reroute the main suction pipe with a new one.Do the seals all the way up to the bottom of the pump.Make sure it hangs high enough with the correct brackets (lots of heavy duty zippee clips!) as any rubbing can cause suction problems (not oil leaking initially) as TC mentions.This should set you back around £300 parts and labour from Finning Hose repair (not Finning service).You get the correct quality pipe with the correct end fittings and seals.Finnings came to do my D8's and changed some of the angles to make a better job than the original.You may want to look at the main return pipe whilst the oil is out and you have easy access.Finnings would want around £200 to fit that however its an easy fix with a new pipe yourself.I stick to Cat to be honest where pipes are concerned for what they charge is pennies where D8's are concerned.Any D8 heating up problem allways starts with bad suction,dirty radiator or worn fan belts and pulleys.If you get these basics half deacent they will run for ever with tired transmission,low liners etc,etc and all the other fun ailments that seem to affect these old giants.
Replaced a suspect water pump on a D5H this week that the young fella that helps keep them in profit hobbled together with a pump off a D7G.He soon had it stripped and fired some new bits into it's innards then stuffed it into some old beer boxes before squeezing it through the letterbox.I opened the box to find he'd ordered new gaskets and a large o'ring that I couldn't figure out what was for as I had scrutinized my parts book carefully when ordering all the new hoses and gaskets etc for the job.Now then,....the lad's never wrong in what's needed to get the job done,so I figured that I had cocked up somewhere with my reading of the parts book.I mentioned this to my father over a cup of tea and he reminded me that 'Well he's never wrong Son,so yer better look again' so with that ringing in my ears,I resumed my head scratching with the parts book.Sure enough,it was there in 'B veiw' and I realised to my embarrassment that it was the main seal for the bloody pump! Well TC,what can I say......you've saved me a whole load of heartache there mate.Thanks. Anyway,it went to work just fine with no leaks and a healthy looking circulation in the rad.I've drained it down and will get some antifreeze into it this week.The oil will get dropped and the breather will get flushed out.I don't suppose I'll get all the condensation out of the motor as it only works occasionally.It could do with a good 12 hour shift and a second oil change idealy. No pub today.Going to John Lewis instead with my wife and sons to buy curtain poles.......
Got back under the D8 again today. Not with the same enthusiasm as last Sunday (had a bit to much pop last night) Got all the oil out. Slackening the main pipe worked well although a bit slow but did not spill a drop! Drained both steering clutch compartments and did not find any nasty bits on the drain plug magnets. Had a poke around inside and found nothing even in the bottom of the main suction hose. I will check in bottom of the drums when it has finished dripping overnight Hope to get all the pipes out over the next day or two and then start ordering the seals and pump (ting tong type) Thanks again all for the tips and advice. It was leaking underneath there more than I realised. But its never had any priming problems or overheating. Thinking of really treating it to some T O 4 drivetrain oil aswel .Will keep posted Jon
Update on D8 .Have been working on it in short bursts over the last month or so.Fitted a new trans pump and new suction hose and replaced all the O rings right through. Put a bought 4 gallons of oil in and left it for a few days.Came back to find a puddle of oil underneath. Lucky l did not put the lot in.Thought l had meticulously fitted everything under there. It was just weeping from the trans case fitting. Anyway stripped it back off and rubbed the face of the casing with a buffer on a drill. Put back together with a bit of sealant . Hope that's cured it ! Keep finding other things aswell. Needs a new hydraulic suction ,that has been adding to the oil puddle .Ump
Jon,I have never been able to cure all the leaks and weeps on any of my D8's and I've had 9 of them!.The problem is that they are big,old machines with worn and fretted mating surfaces.The main thing is,you appear to have no leaks in the bottom of your beer glass.
here is one I made earlier
Its still leaking !!!!! Maybe not quite as much but I am going to have one more go at it.Your dead right though Nicky at least my bear glass has not been leaking although there has been many a morning l wished it had! Looks nice and clean under there.I made the mistake of dropping the belly pan off in the workshop. To late to pressure wash out underneath. Will do it when l get it running again outside and before l do the hydraulic suction hose. By the way seen the 68a in Eurotrash mid April ? 5000 series s/s ripper ,tilt blade.
Ump, dont forget to look up at the beam pin to make sure its not eating its way through the engine back case, oh and take a spanner to the side bolts on the engine mountings, if they are loose it needs more than a spanner to fix things, you need a "Right Tool" its Summer now tctractors
sorry Jon,not mine.Got no rippers on the 68A's.
Sorry should have worded that better.Have you seen the 68 a in eurotrash? I new it was not one of yours Nicky. Its on the website.for the sale at Selby. Thanks T C for the heads up on checking the engine mounting bolts and equaliser bar pin . Its not that easy to see under there but I will check it out. The tractor stands pretty level so I guess that's a good sign.
Ump, the pin can migrate out of position and start chewing away at the back case, the tractor stance will not be off kilter, the engine mount bolts and the pin are easy to check with the belly guard off, the D8K should be nose up in stance with the bonnet rising towards the rad, if the nose is level there is a bit of work some time when you pull the frames to sort this point, its easy enough to do but due to the low amount of work the tractor gets it might be some time off. tctractors
just reread this thread.......short history of last year.One of thr D8's with all the new pipes,pump,etc etc goes out to work last march.works strong all year until early December.Reliable,cool engine,cool tranny,no real tranny oil leaks as such.By October,she's starting to sruggle in the mornings on the pick up then works hard all day nice and cool.Can't switch off at brew time as looses prime.Pulls 700 hour old non cat pump off at weekend and it's knackered.Found magnetic screen pipe had worked loose so was happy to find culprit.Also happy that 'micky mouse pump' lasted 700 hours at 180 quid.no drama. Puts new pump on and she works another 6 weeks until off hired. Fires up tractor in April after 4 months,oil levels checked well,and off she goes for a days work across the field towing a scraper with the blade still on.Works great.no drama. Parked up until new D8K laydown muffler fitted and fired her up yesterday to do another days work on the box over the bank holiday weekend.The oil levels had checked out fine and I'd let her idle for about 20 minuits.Jumped into it and no tranny pressure!!!!!pump was cold and I'd been letting it tick over dry......pulled the throttle back,buggered about with the shift stick and nothing..tried again....nowt.Now I know I'm heading into a new pump as they don't last long dry and I'm wondering why????? have I not done enough to the suction lines etc??? Anyway,I fitted my trusty bleed tap to the pump and fired her up.Eventually,it primed bubbly oil and I shut it off to turn the pump tap off.Fired the motor up.....nowt.By this time,I'm sweating and decide to pull the floor plate up to see if the big prop is spinning.It was,so some major relief and decided to bleed it again.This time I let it blow a good near gallon back into the atmosphere then jumped back into the seat.This time she pulled her feet up and charged out of the gate.Ran it a round the field for half an hour to burn the new paint off the muffler etc and then parked it up.All seemed well,craked the pump tap off abit to take a look and the oil seemed abit airy.Anyway,fu#k it,decided to take the family to the caravan away for the weekend instead and went to the pub.The D8 and the little soil job can wait.. Obviously,it's pulling air in again,but where?.Tony knows the history on those oil lines on that tractor and knows I've done everything I can,so I'm surprised it's dropped the ball again so soon.For the record,I allways run the trannies a few gallon over the mark.
The Air filled oil can only point to trouble from the pump to the main case oil feed connection, some place along the way its letting wind into the suction line, if the oil pump had been mounted lower to the spot the oil is kept troubles on D8's and 9's would be a lot less. tctractors
TC I just love that last sentence. I wish they would have learned that pumps push better than they suck. I have had moore wild rides due to a loss of suction at steep angles than I care to remember. After repeated experience, I ran mine at a minimum of five gallons over the full mark, and still they would loose prime at severe angles. With the heavy end pointed downhill, as was usually the case when it would happen, the blade does a poor job of stopping it, so hold on for the ride. What wouldhave been so hard about mounting the pump lower like the starter, and the starter up high wherethe pump is?
The handy tap
assuming that the bottom orings and manifold that attatches to the bottom of the bevelcase are allways drowned in oil,then I assume the problem can only start at the engine end where the pipe connects to the manifold that attatches to the magnetic screen and eventually up to the pump itself.The suction hose is all reacent Cat and is the later D8K style.I'm fairly sure the hose hasn't fretted,it must be drawing in air from that fitting up to the pump??.Am I assuming too much though......If the immersed o.rings and casting of the manifold isn't craked back at the bevelcasing end,can it still draw air there? I had a D6C once that was used as back up tractor to work on jobs with the D8's.It would get hot after about 4 hours and would run near the red for the rest of the day.Eventually after a few years I got a regular hire for it and decided to take a look.....The suction hose had been replaced with some sort of homemade car water hose that was fitted by jubilee clips.The hole in the car hose was big enough to shove 3 fingers in.(I kid you not,Neil Becher can give testament to that!).I replaced it with the proper kit and it made little difference.It's worth mentioning that it never failed to pick oil up in the mornings.....
Is this another case of pump seal and the old orientation of the seal lip debate?
Hi Old Magnet.Do you mean the seal on the shaft?.it's not transferring oil
Can't remember if that seal is on the suction or discharge shaft side of the pump but I was thinking more that it could be sucking air.
Old Magnet.It never occurred to me that it could pull air in there . Can't see it ,but I'd Prefere to repair that seal than pull belly plate off
Seal is installed with lip towards the outside of the pump so it is capable of drawing oil or air, whichever is on the other side if it leaks.
Thanks
Would like to hear your findings, be a shame to have all that hoopla over a $4 seal.
Nicky, it might be worth installing a constant prime oil line into the centre plug on your transmission pump like a D8K, I think your other tractor already has 1 fitted, but the pump can suck air in from any place including the shaft seal down to the case joint on the suction line, if you get in a jamb please call. tctractors
Old Magnet,it could be a while before I get around to it as I am very busy at the moment but I like TC 's idea of the constant prime line back to the torque. Put a police movement order for one of the D8's yesterday but will need the D5 first to clear up the mess.
OK, that constant bleed line will help vent air from the pump but it doesn't do anything about keeping air from entering the system.
The constant prime line to the centre plug on the transmission pump is linked to the scavenge system, this helps the tran's pump prime, and is outside any gizmo that Nicky has stuffed into the top of the pump in order to vent air from the system, the true fix on oil pick up issues can take some sorting, a few times I have after draining the oil, blanked off the suction hose line at the main case and filled the suction line via the top of the filter screen with heating oil as this always shows the leak location if any are to be found, the pump will always suck air rather than suck oil, its just a matter of finding the air inlet that often never lets oil leak from to make things easy. tctractors
Fair do Old Magnet,I understand that it's not a fix to the problem,but many of my D8's have had simmiliar issues over the decades and have often ran all day without getting hot or anything once the've primed up in the morning.It's almost impossible to keep them air tight.
Vacuum can be your friend. I have blanked off troublesome lines and used a hand pump to pull vacuum on the section in question. Will indicate a leak when it will not hold vacuum, just doesn't tell you where. Will indicate leaks that no liquid will show.
An update.Got around to fitting the constant prime pipe. I fired it up knowing that I'd probably trashed the pump whilst I was buggering about with it. It struggled to pick up it's feet and I knew then that it was toast.It ran for about an hour but it was just not 'galloping' as it should and I knew I had wrecked the pump. Anyway,I removed the pump to find the bearings had picked up on the gearshafts. I removed all seals to the suction hose apart from the one at the tranny end.They were all nice and flexible and not hard as this tractor runs nice and cool.I am convinced the suction hose is the culprit,however,I have a spare deacent pump that I'm going to fit,and with the addition of the constant prime,it may solve my problem sort of.If it trashes the pump again or gets hot,then I 'll have the belly plate off and simply replace all pump and hoses again . To be fair,I thought this suction hose was newish......It has in fact done around 1800 hrs. I have checked the screens whilst I'm about it and they are all ship shape with no sparkles,just the usual bit of dirt and no sleepless nights.
I'd still blank flange that pump and put a vacuum on it to check the shaft seal. Need a translation for "bearings had picked up on the gearshafts"?? I assume that means the bearings were worn which also would be hard on the shaft seal.
The bushes inside the pump had suffered a lack of lubrication and transferred white metal from them to the gear shafts.
Nige has translated Old Magnet. The pump is toast and it most definitely is drawing air in through the top shaft seal now!! I have also paid the suction pipe elbow from the magnetic screen some attention.The mating surfaces were all over the place.This has had the surface grinding treatment from the file and some emery cloth.New o'rings will get fitted too You can see the groove in the screen assembly
Put it all back together . drained engine oil due to the transfer of 13 gallons.put new oil in tranny to bring up to the overfull mark and fired it. Pressure was Imediatley there and it seems fine now.
Congratulations, looks like you won that one.
"I love it when a plan comes together!" Hannibal
This was a suction leak on our d8k Just shows how hard suction leaks can be to find it didn't leak any oil Once the she ran wide open for 10 minutes or so it would pull prime and work all day until shut down I had studied the area looked very closely the O rings right below that clamp with the massive hole worn behind it studied all the oil leaks to make sure they were not the suction line decided to change all the o rings and found that hole It did get a new pump also as that was leaking external along with the wear this would have caused now it sucks right away
Dear Lord, what they hell did that???? By the way,I have had no futher issues with the one that got the constant prime line fitted
Couple wraps of duct tape and you'd be good to go! Did I ever tell you guys about the truck driver that tried to fix the hose to the dump cylinder on an 18 wheeler with duct tape?
There was a hold down clamp were that groove and hole are I guess in the last 30 years it got some dirt and vibration going it was wore as thin tinfoil I considered duct tape and bubble gum New housing and it primes up like a dream it just amazes me that it still worked and didn't drip oil
Need to be sure it's vacuum rated bubble gum, most is rated for internal pressure! Now if you had someone good with a TIG welder they could put a nice patch over that!