Time for new tracks. Deciding between regular SALT track vs SALT with positive pin retention. Dozer is run in dirt, not much rock or other material. It does run over the occasional "make your butthole pucker" rock and such. I do heavy slot pushing. From what I read, it's a metal ring that can help extend life and is recommended for mining and heavy industrial use or tracks with wide shoes. My shoes are 22" thinner. Is the positive pin retention worth the extra $6,000-$8,000? Thank you
Also, one track is worn twice as much as the other. Is there any reason I can't just replace one side?
Would you like to share the wear measurements for both sides.? I'd vote to go for PPR in your conditions of operation as described. Are you proposing to wrap new tracks on top of the existing sprockets/rollers/carrier rollers/idlers.? You could conceivably do one side first but I would not advise to fit new tracks withpout replacing everything else in the U/C system that the tracks runs on.
Yes I'll send a picture of the difference. Will be a few hours. One side has 1/4-1/2 the bushing wear face gone and is exposing the pin. The other side is barely starting to wear completely through the bushing. 1/2" difference on grousers. Can even tell it's a different color on the more worn one. So far I have trek or ITR no PPR with extreme shoes 22" and sprockets at 22k and replacing rollers is about 9k then idlers are 10k. I have DCF PPR 30k and ITR PPR 26k. Again idler and rollers 19k. So 45-49k for ITR PPR or about any brand no PPR is 38-42k. Maybe one side at a time may be needed, I know I have my trans rebuild coming up soon. Engine is still strong, want to do a sos test soon. Trans is still good in second and third gear. First is toast.
Is this a joke? Bad bob
Photos can only tell so much but numbers don't lie. So you haven't had the U/C measured by the dealer.? Were you aware it's a free service.?
I have to agree on the joke comment. I have measured thousands of undercarriages and the stated hours and types of wear are just not possible. Wearing one track out with little to no wear on the other side would mean the machine is spinning circles. The comment on slot dozing added to the stated wear gives me visions of the machine cutting threads in the earth.
Nothing is free anymore unfortunately. I've called and told them I want to buy a complete undercarriage and please come see what I need, they said no and wanted to charge $800 to look. Last time I had a tech out, they missed a few maintenance things I should have been aware of so wasn't to fond of $800 for a quote. I'll try asking again. Last time they said they don't have any in stock and don't know when they will.
Yes very bad. Imagine seeing a gap in the plates that's twice as big on the right side then the left of the same track while tracking an uphill 2:1 slope. I'm repaired the more worn side twice now. Tired of $2,500 bandaids.
I don't have the pictures on this phone but I will take more today. I've previously posted the pictures. I'm amazed at the strength of these tracks. Every time I repair is when the pin is buckling. Slot pushing, uphill tracking.
What kind of work are you doing with that machine, quarry or mining .road building ?
Pretty sure the private seller pulled a fast one after my paid mechanic inspection and switched one side before delivering. Right side is 100% bushing on top, 0-10% bottom. Left side is 100% bushing on top, 0-5% bottom. I can cut perfectly flat and smooth surfaces on an area of 100 newly dumped trucks (staring at the top 1/3rd) It's time to order new.
New commercial and residential.
If first gear is toast, why are you even worrying about your shoes when you're about ready for a heart transplant? I can't believe you're going to be pushing much of anything much longer..
I'm guessing you never considered Cat undercarriage and the $800 to do an assessment is from aftermarket suppliers and not Cat? Don't have to buy Cat but could still get an inspection and quote from them.
Call the Parts Dept and ask to speak to the PSSR (Parts & Service Sales Rep) who deals with undercarriage. Tell them right up front you have a D8R, it'll have them salivating......
While we are talking undercarraige does anyone do grouser jobs or build up idlers anymore?
I think it all depends on circumstances and wear rates. On a recent job we could go 3 wear cycles (new + 2 re-grouserings) on shoes without the base of the shoe wearing thin but this was in highly abrasive material where in worst-case scenario we could take a set of SES grousers from new to the wear limit in maybe 1000-1500 hours. Idlers we just wore them to 125% and junked them.
I don't know of anyone welding up grousers anymore. Idlers were cost effective on D9 and larger. The messages from the OP just don't make any sense.
I ran a dozer (8K) that had one track replaced. The dam thing wouldn't push straight with a blade full.
Another deja vu thread, wasn't there another D8 in So Cal that had one track different than the other on here a while ago?
Same guy too HeavyEquipmentForums
I believe the term is Deja poo as in same old crap. Bad Bob
The big reveal! You can see the difference in chain wear from each side. There are 3-4 spots where the bushing is worn off on the more worn left side. That side also needs to be tightened every day or so while the other side never has to. So it's definitely more worn. I'm getting ready to do everything both sides, that way something else can break down the following week! Ha! No really it's a work horse and besides my chain abuse, I keep on the maintenance which isn't much really.
Are you planning on doing anything with the transmission when you put the new U/C on.? Not having 1st gear to work with could tear up all the nice shiny new parts in short order which would be a shame after you'd invested so much money in them.
Yes planning on it asap, however 2nd gear is strong enough to slot push up hill so 1st hasn't worried me too much. There hasn't been issues with stuff in screens, been getting cleaner with each change.
You haven't answered if you asked Cat for an undercarriage appraisal? Need to clarify who wanted $800 to do it.
Yes it was Cat, Hawthorne Cat. They don't care that I want to drop 40-50k. In fact I'm still having problems getting them to call me back for a quote. Parts says they could order it but they recommend I go through a sales rep because they'll definitely get me a lower price but the sales rep won't call back. Every aftermarket rep gets prices back to me in 30 minutes and you can text them any time. Cat don't give two squirts
I asked for a full field lube service with all filters 2 weeks ago and was told they can get to me in 3-4 weeks... I did it myself.
I'd always thought it was a free service too. Perhaps a call to Cat corporate letting them know about the treatment or lack of it you've received might be in order. Do you have much of a history with this dealer?
Bought lots of parts from them. 15kish a year not including any pumps or whatever extra. I don't think corporate is interested. I'm smaller business.
Wouldn't hurt to contact them. 50K in potential undercarriage and a tranny rebuild isn't pocket change.
The skilled labor shortage is very real. Even car dealers/independent mechanics have to be scheduled similarly.
My inlaws have a used car dealership and full service repair shop. Since the covid lock downs were removed in 2020, they've been booked 3 to 6 weeks out. That's over 2 years that their schedule has been completely full with a waiting list. There are no slots for emergency roll in work. You bring a dead car on a rollback and drop it off, they might get a chance to look at it in 2 weeks. My father in law could hire 2 more techs, if he could find them. I'm not surprised a Cat dealer is just as.booked up. Our Deere dealer is busy as heck too. The only time we see their techs are because of emergency field repair. Anything that goes to their shop is a couple months or more getting it back.
If you need to tighten the track on the worn side every other day the track tightener is releasing on you (leaking off) and may explain why that track is wearing so much differently than the other. Just my 2cts. What I'm saying is you will want to address that when you replace the UC.
Definitely need to repair the track tensioner problem. Is there any chance that the tiller steering control is malfunctioning and and putting more drive power to the track that is wearing so much faster than the other ? I have done heavy slot dozing and it is very tempting to try and turn in the slot. It puts a lot of strain on the track that is being used to turn.
I’m going to say he’s in for at least one tensioner reseal if not both getting to that age,, betting equalizer bar needs rebearing and no telling how the center bore and pin is, no telling how the pivot shafts are, and so forth. I would urge a FULL inspection and scope of work estimate before dumping all the money into just the undercarriage and encountering unpleasant surprises once torn down. More than once I’ve seen an owner decide AFTER teardown that the work needed is higher than the value of the machine. The part nobody wants to think about on these machines is what else needs attention beyond just replacing the normal components of the undercarriage.
Who slot dozes up hill?
Someone who dozes in 2nd gear.?
Yes I understand this. However with their $200 an hour they could do a little better but I do understand. Many people get paid to stay home now. Don't get me started lol. Screw 'em, I'm out making all their money while they're home sick. Wish them the best. As a licensed earthworks contractor who is licensed in hazmat, mold and more while also having field hospital experience.. I can't believe how things went knowing what I know.. and there's a lot more people a lot smarter than me running things!
I don't care about value of the machine. I care about the huge amount of profit each job brings. If I weren't preparing for a good future for my 800 kids I'd have no problem buying a new one. But with great opportunities come great responsibility and potential support for those taken opportunities. I do appreciate the warning though! Hey, in this day and age that dozer is gaining value every day.
Where do you stockpile 2,000cuyd for a commercial building that is 150x55 with an over excavation of 10' deep on a total lot that is 200x300 total? In a pile. Which you have to climb. I could use my excavator with a 1.5 cuyd bucket heaped. But it would also take 4 times as long minimal and with a 30' reach total vs 400cuyd per hour with the d8r. So a week job turns into a month. I currently don't own a compactor which is 300 a day. That's an additional $6k a month plus the employee on water hose additional 4.5k a month. So a dozer is meant to move dirt. I don't big down the engine or trans. I move the maximum dirt allowed at full speed without overloading, which is an insane amount of dirt. I don't own a loader, however at the last job I was able to load a screen with a 1.5 yd bucket and had to do it slowly not to overload screen and a large loader was barely keeping up with me. I don't think they move the same.dirt as a d8r. They definitely can't go where a tracked machine can. If I have to replace 40k a year in maintenance, that's still less than a year of renting a compactor and having a guy on a water hose, nevermind the operator for compactor if I'm really moving.
Part of one of the bars has a weld on it, might not be straight. Thank you! Yeah I plan to replace the seal or whatever is needed. I'll probably be asking here for anyone's advice or experience. Cat technical helps too
Have you considered to removing both track frames and drag the pivot shaft out of the frame to inspect it, then as a minimum re-bush and re-seal it.? Are you also prepared for the possibility that the pivot shaft itself might be toast and that would put another (probably) $5k minimum on your undercarriage bill.?
As always I appreciate your comments. It's something I'm considering. I am curious how the pivot shaft looks. I need to find that picture of the bar that pans the entire undercarriage that is welded on the more worn side. Ask if you think it affects the pivot shaft. I do not think it affected the chain and such. It's easy to tell everything is more worn on that side including the grousers. Big difference. But for the pivot shaft? Would that require taking apart the finals and pulling out the shaft to the trans?
Nope. With the track frames off it slides out of one side or the other. Shaft weighs about 1000 pounds. As a minimum I'd say you are in for new bushes (Ref #8) and seals (not shown) for it. Worst case scenario a new shaft, although I have seen worn shafts rotated 180-deg and put back in to present an unworn surface to new bushes because they only generally wear on the bottom side.
Honestly with how much I've taken apart and put back together, it also being fun, I may do this. It's great experience. Thank you.
Does anyone ever build up the worn pivot shafts? Spray or weld buildup or would there be too much chance of breaking in the heat afected zone? I know steel is getting out of sight expensive these days = expensive parts.
Does it lose any appreciable amount of oil over time from the pivot shaft oil tank - or is there no oil in there.? Any signs of leakage around the PV shaft seals if you crawl underneath for an up close look.?
No leaking anywhere. No little drops the next day. There is oil in the pivot shaft tank, it's half full after 6-8 months.
That's a moderately good sign at least.
What do you think of these used? I may jump on them.
Photos don't really show enough detail. Some of the track rollers appear to be worn out already, hard to tell about the rest.
I will go to the place, measure and let you know.
Get some better photos while you're there. For example take a photo of the idlers from directly in front, not from the side like the one in your post above. That helps to judge the wear on the idler tread. Also look for any signs of oil leaks from the rollers or idlers.
Why look at used if your uptime is a priority with lots of work ahead of you? Lots of time and labor with the undercarriage; pivot shaft bushing's; transmission plus what ever else you find to fix. I get the sense you are pushing you and your machine too hard. I mentioned it in the earlier post and I say it again. Slow down and consider the sound advice you have been given.
What's the story on the used? If it's been sitting, there's a good chance the the links will be leaking soon BTDT. What is the price point on the used? No more than half of new, less if worn more than 50%.
Robert,firstly I understand your frustration with your Cat dealer.I’m only 30 years in the game,never bankrupt,allways paid my bills,never had a single crossed word with my Finnings dealer and only owned over 10 x D8’s 1x D9,1xD4,1xD5,1xD6 and various scrapers etc.So you’d think they may be happy to quote work or call you back or offer dealer support? Nope. Nothing,not intrested.Not intrested then,and not intrested now. That’s the way it is here in the UK
Secondly,I’m not going to comment on the state of your existing D8R undercarriage.It is what it is. Assuming all is well in your trackframes and eq bar and pivot shafts etc,your question as to wether it’s worth the extra thousands of dollars to buy Cat PPR on a D8R dozing or ripping in you material is a big,fat NO!! Whilst I agree with everything Nige has ever stated on here over the years,I’m going to put my neck on the line over the PPR thing. I’ve lost count of the amount of undercarriages I’ve bought and ran on D8’s.I keep a close eye on things and know that Cat are very good.But,not that good.They are very overpriced and offer me a much higher hourly running cost than ITR or ITM. I’m not going to bore you with the many variables in undercarriage wear and operators inexperienced methods,but I’ve had many of the same men on the same machines in the same quarries for years,so have a fair idea. PPR offers you the luxury of not having pins walking out.I’ve never had one pin ever walk out of a D8 in 30+ years in either general muckshifting,sand and gravel quarries and sandstone quarries.In that time I’ve only ever owned one set of PPR only.In your operation,you’re paying all that money to throw it away once your bushings are toast. Buy some cheap ITR 22” std grouser track groups,some cheap ITR segments and throw the lot into the bin once the bush is worn through and you’re running on pins.However,be sure to replace the segments (do not use Cat) when they are only 50/60% worn.I expect my D8’s to get through 3 or 4 sets of segments during the life of the chains.ITR segments are under $600 a complete set here in the UK and are easily swapped out in 3 hours. It will extend your profit margins considerably.When the groups are completely knackered,the links should be around 70% worn.I’m happy to throw the remaining 50% rail away. This method works well even with well worn rollers and idlers,but careful monitoring of cannon length and bogey abuse is advised.Don’t try a squeeze too much out of them
So,in complete contradiction of my previous post on PPR,I’ll say that I have an entirely different opinion on what tracks get fitted onto my D9T. It’s about 55T and 50% bigger than my D8T I think? So,because it’s so big,it’s understandably expected to tackle the harder quarries such as limestone or granite etc. In these applications,I’d recommend PPR track chains for sure.The same can be said if you’re using a D9 to push scrapers or push out loads off 777’s on coalsites etc.Lots of weight,sharp spragging equates to walking pins.
Then you have to consider the dreaded DCF/DCR Korean undercarriage for bigger tractors. Well,what can I say?Ive had one on a D5H and one on a D8H.They’re soft for sure and they’re cheap.I never bothered buying DCF/DCR since. Then Covid struck……..I ended up hiring in 3 more Cat D9T’s aswell as my own kit.All the D9’s were on runout track wise at the time,although mine had a set of pretty decent Cat tracks fitted that went on to last until April this year.At the time,Finnings we’re not intrested in bothering to quote or supply complete D9 undercarriages for 3 tractors.You just couldn’t get them to reply to phone calls,e.mails,nothing. So,what do you do with 3 D9’s needing tracks with a few hundred thousand cube of muck to shift? You buy them off the only company that has them at whatever price they demand! Cat D9 trackgroups $30k and more plus 3 months wait.DCR trackgroups $15k and delivered the next day. All those 3 D9’s were sold after that job after particular job probably clocking up 6/700 hours each.I don’t recall exactly,but all the DCR trackgroups looked to be in very good shape.This was in general muck overburden though and not hard rock. So the time came this April to replace my PPR Cat trackgroups on the D9T.Again,Finnings were hard to get a quote from,ITR were on a few weeks back order,but the DCR tracks were sitting in stock as usual. They were $15k and delivered the following morning.They aren’t PPR but the tractor isn’t ripping in hard rock. I’ll probably never get to see how the DCR D9 undercarriage pans out as work is drying up here now,so the big Cat is snoozing.
Good point Nicky. I would agree with PPR on a 9 and above and probably debatable on an 8.
Just for fun I’ll throw out my recent example. D9T was 100% Cat UC for 45,000 hrs with no major issues. Customer decided it was time to shop and we did a test. Wood chip application. Low impact. Low abrasion. Mod/High moisture. Mod/high packing. Steep slope work and high speeds (an issue for another topic). Overall dream work for UC. One new Cat HD track with new Cat 30” shoes and hardware. One new ITR track with Cat 30” shoes and ITR hardware. After 6792 hrs on the tracks notable problems. PSR shows 39% idle so call it 4075 working hours on the tracks. Cat link 5% wear, 3% internal wear (stretch) and bushing had 8%. ITR link 5% wear, 101% internal wear (stretch) and bushing had 16%. 3 Cat idlers at 44% wear with over 12,000 hrs. 1 ITR idler at 6% wear (hrs unknown but newest) but tread had hard surfacing all peeling off and cracking. Customer ask the ITR selling dealer for support. They came in to check the UC (with eyes cause they have no measuring tools) and said they did not see any issues and no reason any support was needed. Customer just bought a new Cat track to replace the ITR (18 months old) and 2 idlers (1 spare)…. Application, utilization, length of ownership, up front costs, warranty, UC management options, just a few factors that need to be considered before deciding on the right choice ! Good luck out there !
Fair play Ben. There is allways another angle. I’m a Cat lover through and through,but I’ve never had my value for money out of their undercarriages and GET products unfortunately
Hey Nicky, I get that one shoe does not fit all ! I’ve put non-Cat UC on Cats and lots of Cat UC on non-Cats ! As well Cat general duty D8 UC is about 50% the cost of HD. It is non-PPR but great value overall. D9-D11 Cat general duty UC is PPR.
If machine goes full speed without bog down it's not overloaded I'd think? And why go used vs new? Well I have other large equipment which I can use to install everything myself and with my friend while partaking in our favored reality augmentation. I can have the tracks and everything replaced in 1-2 days. Then also there's a cost difference.. used costs 25% of the new price. That's lit rally the entire cost of trans rebuild. So I can get tracks that will last 8-12 jobs and also rebuild the trans or I can just get new tracks for the same price.
Cost of new vs used is 25%. I can take the other 75% and rebuild entire trans and have decent tracks and rebuilt trans for same price as new tracks. They said none of the links are leaking, but I can tell you for a fact 80% of my bushing have no lube at all and still lasted over a year so I should get at least 1-2 years with used tracks and if business keeps going as it is I can easily get new tracks down the road a year or two from now. So I'm not expecting the links to be sealed forever but they do say they're all sealed right now and they were planning on using them for rentals. I'm probably going to head up today and take a look at them but they're bushings look amazing compared to mine haha!
Also any new tracks have a month to delivery and I'm not sure I'll last a month. That one pin is really bad.i have too many jobs to stop a month. I have 3 right now and more permits coming.
Thank you for this I appreciate it. For segments, do you mean sprockets?
I definitely agree here. I believe the PPR is standard on d9 and up.
Agree completely. I have my cat credit card waiving in the air saying please charge me 40k and they literally won't. Last rep told me they have a set on the east coast and freight is 15k or I can get shipped here for free regular cat shopping but it will take a month if I'm lucky. Those are the words the cat dealer told me. "I'll have to pray cat sends them quickly but it could take over a month to get them" then they said they'll put me in touch with another sales rep since the first one is on vacation... They made a group email saying contact me I want to buy.. I responded saying I'm ready to buy immediately please contact me... That was over a week ago. So unfortunately **** cat and here I come used.
Holy crap 101% internal wear? Yikes! I'd like cat but they are too busy to answer an email to sell me any.
I emailed the group email and let them know I've been trying to buy tracks for 5 months and now am going private party because they aren't interested in making any sales and thanked them.
Yes,segments and sprockets are one in the same to me
If it's in one piece it's a sprocket. Yours is in 5 pieces IIRC so they are segments.
Speed & Spinning the track kills undercarriage period ! Seen it too many times. Just watch Andrew Caramatta on YouTube. On a high track machine the ride is smoother & have more hp so you can go faster ,Looked after a Brand new D9t after 1200 hrs it needed a pin & bushing turn, roller’s replaced, was adjusting tracks once a week, Green operator’s and a ignorant Boss didn’t help.Just wanted the material over the side
I didn’t know that. Every day a learning day
As Bccat says,it’s all in the operator. Good operators can get twice as much out of an undercarriage as a novice or a highly experienced imbecile. Fortunately for my little operation,I’m quoting against big companies that accept and understand that you can’t get good men to operate them,so the higher running costs are allready built into their rates. Rates are allways tight enough,so if I undercut by a tiny margin,or offer a much more flexible service to the contractor,then I can make a bit of profit from time to time.
I got about 160k cuyd and 3 years out of UC supposedly 40-50% when I purchased according to auction I had do inspection.
I sent the pictures of the used parts. What do you think?
I sent some more pictures of the used parts. What do you think?
Nicky, I like " a highly experienced imbecile" ,I've come across a few myself.
Out of the 6 track rollers in your photo I can see 3 that I wouldn't consider installing even if they could be bought for scrap price. That's 6 rollers out of 16, what do the other 10 look like.? I assume there are four idlers but there are only photos of 2 of them, and without seeing them side by side with a new idler it's hard to tell. Is it possible to put a straight edge across the top of each idler as shown and measure the depth at the points shown by the two pins on both sides.? Post up the results and I'll tell you how much they are worn.
I won't be in the area again but I believe it was about .8".
That would make them better than brand new - less than zero wear in other words. I don’t believe that for a moment If you can’t measure them can you have someone else do it.?
That seems like less than a new one would be. Edit: Had it typed but didn't hit send, lol.
.8" as in 8 tenth of an inch?
Yessiree Bob. A brand new one measures slightly more than that so those idlers in your photos were obviously somehow miraculously adding metal to the tread area while they were working, not wearing it off.
They told me idlers are newer about 80%. Some rollers are newer than others. Some cat brand rollers and some other brand rollers. The pads on the chains are older than the chains/rollers/idlers.
I will see about a measurement, 3/4" is about what I saw when I was there. Didn't take a picture.
No substitute for some cold hard numbers. Post them up when you get them. When the seller said "about 80%" was that 80% worn or 80% remaining.?
80% remaining. Will do
I’ve put me specs on and looked at those rollers and idlers. Yes,there’s life in them for sure. Would I put them on? Not unless I was flat broke and wanted some exercise
One more point to remember if you do get a professional measurement on that second hand undercarriage………there’s not much difference in an undercarriage that’s 70% left or one that’s 40% left. Then there’s the 120% worn calculations to consider. However,if it’s going to cost you a few hundred dollars to get a professional measurement from a supplier,then leave well alone as they’re going to tell you things you don’t want to hear. And they’ll be right.
And 1+ months no date for delivery
Am I correct in thinking you’ll need to buy the old tracks as you can’t get any others at all? If so,just wrap the trackgroups around and some new segments. Try and avoid having to fit those old idlers and rollers though if you can. Too much hard work for very little reward
I’ve followed this thread all the way, if it were me (which it’s not) if it was my money (which it ain’t) and I had as much work as you say you do, Id rent a machine (or two) and work while I waited for my new Cat undercarriage, which would assure my clients were serviced and Id have an undercarriage on my own machine that would wear for much, much longer than the used one. But that’s one man’s opinion.
And as I've heard around this forum for quite awhile now: if there's no money in the job to cover a rental, then there wasn't enough money in the job to begin with.
I can see your thoughts here, but, there is always a but. Your running full speed doing jobs and taking more jobs. Making money doing good. BUT, you didn't notice, realize, think ahead, or plan for UC wear? It didn't happen overnight. Personally, I am fixing equipment for next summer while i have time now.
This is what I was thinking as well. I'll measure mine and see how they're doing once the track is off. I could get aftermarket in 2 weeks, but again this is much more affordable and doable for me. Big difference in the chains.. I mean mine have no bushings lol!
Except a d8r rental is 13k a month minimum heh.
I did everything exactly as I planned and wanted. Some like to spend 50k early, some don't. I got over a year out of those terrible tracks. All the while prices are going down. I'd prefer not to push so far but hey, when the stock market is down.. you can either put your money in a machine that has another year to go OR you can put your money in something that will let you buy 10 dozers a decade from now.
At least now I know the real limits. Always nice to know!
Wow. I'm not going to even try and take THAT apart. What colson meant on the rent comment, and I'll add to, is if you're not grossing $50k per month with this machine IF it's truly running as hard as you claim, you are going backwards. That tractor should be getting you $3000 every 10 hours it runs, minus operating costs of course. And that's probably low for some guys.
Agreed.
So then it's settled. Go call and get a rental lined up for when you take yours out of service. Get on the list at Cat to GET THAT TRANS REBUILT. That'll probably require the tractor being out of service for at least a couple weeks, if not a month.
Isn't equipment rent all tax deductible? IDK, I've never been in the position of needing a rental, but some here will tell you if it is or not.
Yes, it is. I've got around $10k worth of rentals I'll be writing off this year. They were worth every penny I paid as I made well more than what they cost me on the jobs I needed them for.
Shimmy,although you are correct in wanting $3000 for every 10 hours that D8R runs,I’m afraid we’ll never see that here in the UK for hire work . Here in the UK,I can get around £120 per hour max for an older D9T and £110 per hour max (and that’s almost unheard of,££90 more on the mark for my young D8T ripping).The hirer pays the fuel,cutting edges and ripper tips) owner pays the driver. In some very rare circumstances,the hirer may pay for a percentage of undercarriage wear too. It’s an unfortunate fact of life here.If I were to charge £2500/€3000/$3000 a day for a D8,I would never work again and possibly be blacklisted from every job in the country. On the other hand,if you’re on a price per ton for rip and crush and stock operations etc,you may be in with a chance of earning that sort of money with a D8
What do you mean by that? If they are desperate enough and they need the work done, they pay what the equipment owner says. Blacklisted, they going to let a job sit undone because they say you are blacklisted?
I’ve never known any contractor desperate enough to pay $3000 a day for a D8 or D9 in the UK in over 30 years of me doing the job. Perhaps blacklisted was abit harsh. What would happen,is word would get out that I was looking for that sort of money and the phone would simply stop ringing
I would think @Shimmy1 is pretty well right on. If I hire out my Bobcat skid steer, I get $90/hr with operator, but I cover every cost associated with machine (fuel, maintenance, consumables, etc) . The customer (hirer) covers none of it so rates should be higher per hour here as that's generally how things are done here. Not saying different contracts don't exist though.
Colson,I don’t see any Bobcats here in the UK on jobs for some reason,but a 5t mini digger for example would cost around $100 per day including delivery! The driver and fuel would be extra though.Tools such as a hammer would be billed as an extra too.
Wow. I can't rent a 5t excavator for $100/day here. About the cheapest excavator I can rent is a 3.5t mini for $275/day with delivery included. The last telehandler i rented cost me $1800 for a 40 hour (week) rental. It was an 8000lb capacity machine, but still pricey for what it does.
I think you chaps definitely have a better chance at putting abit of steak on the table every night. Us Brits have to go down the bread abs jam route
Just curious, how long do you figure it takes to pay for and operate, along with your other long term obligations involved to keep working..a machine that costs 1/2 to 3/4 of a million dollars like the machines you run? at the rates you quote?
You're not going to see that over here either Nicky. You may bid a job with a D8 and wind up making $300/hr, but that's not a rental rate. It's equipment plus profit. Many states publish their rental rates. One of the first that came up was the CalTrans rate sheet. Up to March of 2022, they were paying $178 for a D8R and $223 for a D8T, which is more in line with what I was thinking. As for paying off a $1,000K machine, that's where your brain comes in. If you bid a job and use your head, there's new equipment in your future. If you screw up, it might be the Ritchie Bros auction.
Something else to remember. You're working on a Prevailing Wage (or Davis-Bacon) job. There may be a surcharge that will add to your rental rate, but you're already paying around $90/hr for your operator.
IIRC, and I’m too lazy to look at the first threads posted by the OP regarding this particular tractor because they go back a couple of years at least, that’s where it originally came from.
If fuel is paid by the hirer could be a major factor the larger the machine.
That's cheap. I paid $15K a month back in 2004 for a D8R but it was a newer machine at the time.
Well,that’s a tough one to answer if my business was based solely on the purchase of a new D8/D9 and expecting to put it to work 2000 hours a year on a hire basis only.I’ve never done that,so I can’t answer that sorry.
That’s sounding more in the UK rates Check.The readers have to remember that I’m quoting off in GBP (Great British pound Sterling) and I’m guessing some of you lads are going off American,or Canadian dollers and perhaps Aus coin too. I literally have no idea how the rates system and taxation works after a qualified accountant has been over the figures each year in your respective countries,but the contractors in my country do seem to get by with out going bust. There are many more variables involved with making money out of a piece of equipment than simply the hourly rate.The machines are often part of a bigger picture and sometimes just a pawn or a knight in a game of Chess.
Welder Dave has just pointed something out to me,that fuel may be part of your $3000 a day D8 rental? Well,to clarify the UK side of things,generally the tractor rate is based on the tractor being supplied with a driver only by its owner (me). The cost of the lowloader,fuel,GET equipment and operators overtime is born by the hirer. Other variables get much more complex and are often utilised by the larger contractors are a cost of the percentage of trackwear over the length of the hire.Tracks are measured before and after the hire is completed and an agreed price is then charged out to the hirer. In other cases,the big boys will offer a package deal of equipment that includes diggers,trucks,graders,bowsers,tractors etc.This is an intresting concept to me and I don’t have first hand experience with it,so I’m going off guess work and hearsay to some extent,but it works well for the bigger outfits,but somewhere in the package of equipment are machines that are working below what they need to be,and some are working well above what they need.For example,a contractor pays for a digger,5 trucks,a dozer,a roller and a grader.His digger is flat out loading the trucks and the D6 is breaking a sweat keeping them going on the fill area. Meanwhile,the bean counters think they’re getting a cheap deal,but one of the trucks is often sat waiting on getting loaded,resulting in an easy day for all 5,the grader is snoozing most of the day,just making a little run up and down the haul road occasionally,the roller is sat on the edge of the fill area waiting his turn to roll,so the grader and roller are getting paid a lot of money to do almost nothing all day.The trucks are only working to probably 2/3rds of what they should and making easy money. The only machines that are working above what they’re eating are the digger and the dozer.If you quantify all this up as a package,then the owner of the equipment has done well overall and the contractor that’s hired him thinks he’s had some cheap machines. It laughable when you think,but by running cheap,the machine owner bangs 6/7000 hours on his tackle in 3 years and flogs it at Richie Bros or Euro auctions at a good price and the directors carpark is full of Porsches and Range Rovers
But back to the OP’s D8R track job. When you read some of my ramblings about how the hire sector works,or doesn’t,depending on your angle,you start to understand just how important it is to try and squeeze every penny out of the job.By using non oem undercarriage parts on a D8 in the UK instead of Cat purchased from Finnings (we only have one Cat dealership in the entire UK) I end up with more money in my pocket. That’s my conclusion over 30 years.
Thanks anyway, I wasn't meaning to hijack this thread, I was thinking it was a part of the process of what was being discussed. Now back to the OP.
I totally agree with you Mcrafty,when people ask questions or advice on these threads,it’s often necessary to go off the track abit (excuse the pun) to help explain the answers we give. To be honest,I’ve forgotten what the heck we were all supposed to be talking about anyway ha ha lol
The thread has devolved into something useful finally. Rental rates in this area are done by the eight hour day, weekly and monthly. Four days equal a week, three weeks equals a month. The longer you have the machine, the less it costs to rent it. Renter also pays for machine transportation. Rents are always deductible as a straight expense. Leases may be deductible depending on the structure of the lease and ownership has to be written down on a depreciation schedule. Those schedules are subject to political manipulation so I usually see a lot of trade in business at the end of each year, until this year. Rental rates are determined by the capital costs of the machine and are a percentage of those costs also based on the projected rental life of the machine. New machines increase in cost so rental rates will always go up. Machines are always for sale while still in the rental fleets so there is a lot of moving parts when a rented machine is sold and another machine has to be switched out on a rental customer. Rentals from a franchised dealer only include the machine. Insurance can be purchased from the dealer but is usually covered on the renter's own insurance policy. Proof of insurance is required before the machine leaves. Renter is responsible for the operator, all fuel, maintenance and any damage repairs. The Cat house tried to make a surcharge on undercarriage some years ago but found they didn't have a mechanism to measure the undercarriage every time the machine went out and came back in on rent. The other problem is that a lot of machines go out and never come back to the dealer's lot until it is sold. They just leap frog from renter to renter. Nicky's operation is different in that he is supplying machines more in the vain of a contractor here hired to move dirt. We have several contractors here who do that but all work on a bid basis for a complete job. I have a sometime client that does dirt and utilities work for new school sites, running 631 scrapers, excavators and dozers who works more like Nicky and every penny is squeezed tightly.
Yeah, the $3000/day covers everything, fuel, operator, maintainance, etc. Transportation to the site and things like insurance are also worked into hourly or daily rates. For smaller machines doing shorter jobs there can be additional costs for transportation.
Sounds like you guys have things figured out. Yes, my $3000 per day number includes everything. Operator, fuel, insurance, transportation, maintenance, and what's left is profit. I was going to ask Nick but he's already weighed in on the subject. On another note regarding rent. I called one of my salesmen yesterday. We got a metric-frickton of snow this past week, and looks like I'm going to get to push snow back from intersections and low areas. A 22 ton LGP (all they have is a GPS equipped one, so the price reflects) is going to cost.......... TWENTY THOUSAND per month. If I have a month or more of snow to push, I'll just buy one.
John C,that’s a fair bit of script for me to take in on a Sunday night after a few beers and watching the World Cup football final ,but it explains just how different countries do things. My mind boggles abit at it all,but thanks for taking the time to explain it.
I remember back in the mid 80's a 235 Cat excavator rented for $10,000/month Cad. I knew a guy that rented one for pipelining and he still made good money.
I charge around 25-30k for 1,000-1,500cuyd. Dozer pushes 300-400cuyd an hour. 4,000cuyd 40-50k. 8,000cuyd 80k. I mean whaaa?
Came from a private seller who brought the machine down from Canadian pipeline.
Yeah I appreciate people's helpful opinions but I think they're a little out of touch on how much a d8r is to rent. Where I'm at, my 55klb excavator is 7k a month. I can't find any d8's that allow people to operate them. It always comes with operator. $2,000 a day.
Yes I do per job and move dirt. Unless I'm waiting on import, each job takes 2-10 days and ranges from 25-80k or more.
Some pic porn for everyone. Here's the old track condition. I missed one picture of a broken bushing. "New" track is on.. way thicker in every way and the tension is much better. Took 1 hour to change. Kept same idlers since they're about .6" left and also the rollers all look good. It was just an old chain while the o
And..
Wow ! What do the sprocket segments look like ? From the looks of the chain they must have taken quite a beating.
I'll take a pic next time. They're sharp, definitely worn. Getting new sprockets
Unless the wear is so rapid at this point that it isn't the tensioner.
It was the broken bushing and pins adding several inches to the chain length. With the used chain installed, the tensioner is less extended now.
Yes. It becomes a cost per yard calculation rather than a cost per hour calculation. I still do not run in 3rd gear, but I will run in second a lot, and much of it depends on what I am doing. Folks like Nige and Nicky probably have the answer to these equations as it relates to one dozer. Robert is factoring in many other variables, such as cost and efficiency of other equipment, additional labor, more jobs etc. that all hinge on this one dozer. I am not saying who is right or wrong, but I certainly understand Roberts perspective as it relates to the speed that he runs his tractor.
Availability of rentals has been a huge problem the last two years. I have had to purchase equipment I otherwise wouldn't have because I need it for one or two jobs that I have been awarded and cannot rent equipment to do them.
This is correct. Many factors.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you left a zero off the end of your yardage totals. Three bucks per yard on smaller jobs, more yards equals less per yard cost, sounds realistic. $25k for 1500 cubic yards? If you're doing work like that, you sure as hell shouldn't be here on HEF talking about it.
I pay my taxes and have overhead like all others. I have nothing to hide. If others were cheaper I'd be out of a job. I'm also licensed.
This is California after all. I have the same discussion with other generator people from out of state.
So if you are making those numbers 2000$ a day for a D8 that comes with an operator is dirt cheap. Might as well hire out and sit at home and let the cash roll in instead of messing about with blown transmissions and worn out tracks.
The one who pays for other mistakes is me and someone can really mess something up. Sometimes I think about it but risk is much.
Ok, bub. $4000 per hour pushing with a clapped out 8R? I was born in the dark, but it wasn't last night.
Yep because transport, labor, BMP, fuel and rentals are all free. Clapped out dozer? I don't have other equipment I bring to each job?
Oops I forgot, workman's comp, bond for license, insurance for all my machines, insurance for general liability... All that right there is about 20k a year. Also forgot wear and tear, that's about $30 an hour. I'm sure if I think some more I'll find more expenses. And that's just business related. Mortgage? Tons of kids and dogs? Running a ranch/farm. But I should just pay someone $40-$60,000 a month so I can sit at home?
Which paying someone 40-60 grand a month would push my workman's comp up to about 15-25k a year ALONE. everyone knows how workman's comp works? It goes off the more you pay someone the more they charge. The more hours someone works the more they charge.
Got some real keyboard jackasses here ha! Clapped up dozer. I'd like to see someone else tell a customer they're licensed for survey, earthworks and paving as well as septic/sewer install and all concrete work, that they can do all dirt work for the customer in a week, that the customer doesn't have to hire a survey crew because I have GPS saving the customer potentially tens of thousands because I don't need any staking.. just hire me and next week you'll have a county or city approved pad in exact location needed with a passing soils and civil report for the price I charge. Most are double my cost and need a crew of 10 people and take 4 times longer. And what exactly is clapped about my dozer? All the pumps are 1-2 years new. The final drives are same. I've already replaced any bad rollers when I did the final drives. I maintain it beautifully changing oil often. It starts right away in any weather conditions. Most hoses have been replaced. Also replaced many engine gaskets. Sure I can't use first gear, but first gear isn't needed. Anyone who has experience with large equipment knows you can push a full load without slowing, which means it's not overloaded... But I should be using first gear which puts more load on the machine? While taking 3 times longer using 3 times as much fuel and putting that pressure on each bushing for 3 times longer? If you watch how pressure is spread by the sprocket you'll see what I mean. I appreciate everyone's opinions but some haters just gonna hate I guess.
Maybe to those that are upset about my stupid situation should spend 600k of their own money they earned missing time with their kids to buy real equipment like I did, spend the time to actually get licensed for earthworks, survey, septic and concrete like I did, pay the tens of thousands in insurance like I do, then you'll be able to do what I do. Then maybe when presented with an option like I was, which is buy new for 50k or buy very good condition used for 10k and you can spend your 50k while also paying $2k a day for someone to run your equipment, then you can spend another 40k fixing to he wear plate for first gear in trans.. hey if you got hundreds of thousands to blow, good on you.
Plus workman's comp being triple the price for full time huge pay and also you're responsible for fixing anything the guy you hired breaks.. whether that be on your machine, the customers house or property. We can compare profit and loss at the end of the year.
Taxes, safety equipment and medical supplies for employees. Must keep those up to date. Have a whole trunk dedicated to each.
Here’s some help with that issue https://tinyurl.com/Click-here-for-help-that
hey OP, these men will give you the best help you can get on the internet, but it's clear you're not telling the truth and holding your nose high. logically, this pisses everyone off. While following this topic, I still didn't understand whether the problem is that there is no time or money for a quality repair.
Kiss my ass and Merry Christmas
Ahhh you are doing it government style I see.
I don't deal with numbers, I'm just an operator and a driver and just write down what I did for the day so I don't have an opinion one way or another on this. Except if I've learned anything in this business, it's that there's no one right way to do something. Everyone has their own way of doing stuff and if someone has found a way that works for them and their customers, more power to them.
I don't see a problem with his plan, I don't know why he should park his cat just to wait for shiny new tracks when it's not hard to wrap that set of cheap serviceable tracks on and make some money while he waits for shiny new tracks. The only mistake he made was putting his idea on the internet and asking for opinions...
I doesn't look like the op was looking for opinions, he has enough opinions of his own. FWD
Correct, this post was asking about SALT PPR vs non PPR and replacing only one side vs two sides. Not telling me I'm charging too little and should be able to afford more then telling me I'm charging too much or a liar when I stupidly converse with those telling me that.
The problem is cat says they can't get tracks for at least a month, maybe 2. So I can order and hope they show up in a couple months or pay 14k in freight for 2 weeks.. or I can buy aftermarket but again 2-3 weeks.. meanwhile I'm slot pushing and slope tracking with tracks in the condition of the pictures I sent earlier which has 3 spots where the pin is completely crushed on the ends and many of the bushings were walking out of place. That's the problems. Right when I was about to drop 40k for aftermarket I found the used for 10k. I don't lie about anything and I made something of my life. I wasn't handed anything and regarding amounts of money, the choices were (between trans and tracks) $100k vs $40k if getting used tracks. But I guess people wanting to spend another 60k of other people's money explains why there aren't many doing what I do. Common sense. If people get pissed off because I do what I do, maybe they should get licensed and learn the trade.
Robert, I never once said anything negative about you putting used tracks on. I actually think that you did a good thing by doing that. Where you lost me was your insistence on continuing to operate this machine with a failed transmission. Totally irresponsible in my opinion, but whatever. The other problem I have is, off the cuff, a 3 or 4 day job making you $80k is obviously not something to frig around at, and you taking the chance on that dozer laying down is ridiculous. Once again, in my opinion. I've been moving dirt for 35 years. From the outside looking in, some aspects of this don't add up in my world. Namely, you relying on a machine with something as substantial as a transmission on it's deathbed to keep this operation afloat. You probably have done all this stuff you speak of. Great. Obviously there won't be any consequences for you when you have to drag this 8 on a lowboy, haul it to the shop, and sit around hoping you can find something to use for the next month while it's getting fixed. Wish you luck, and Merry Christmas.
Understood, from my understanding second gear has nothing to do with first, etc. The trans is clean, has no wear material in screens or filters. There are no problems with overheating or slowing down. If I had first gear, I'd never use it. So to me, dropping 40k on a working condition (for me) trans doesn't make financial sense. If I had a ton of cash sitting around, sure. But I have other obligations and debts more important.
I have gauges hooked up to the trans and other ports to keep an eye on pressure.