so the other day we thought the truck ran out of fuel or gelled up and i drug it back to the shop no big deal, well today it was 50-ish and i messed with it all day and never did get the POS to fire off. this is serial number BES566 its a gen1 EUI system, after bleeding the system like normal still no fire so i presurized the fuel tank until fuel came out the return line on the back of the head and still a dead truck.....well, kinda, it runs great on ether lol. the ECU is talking to the GENESIS scanner so im convinced we dont have a dead ecu, however, after i left the shop i got to thinking about it..... only putting 5-10psi air in the fuel tank should i have had any fuel coming out of the back of the head at the pressure regulator? surely it has to hold more than that in the head to feed the injectors doesnt it?? anyone have any way to test a gen1 EUI pump ? has no test port and the genesis scan tool does not read pressure, another thing is that on the solonoid on the eui doesnt seem to have any voltage to it when checking with a test light but im guessing thats not a big problem ? i can only locate one 10amp fuse in the pannel that appears to run the entire ecu and with the scanner connecting to it i believe we are ok there unless somone has a breakdown of harness schematic on the ecu so i can verify it is getting fed at all the pins it needs to be ????? pj
Im not sure, Its been years. The solenoid on the HUEI pump works from a PWM signal that you cant really check with a test lamp. Again im Im not sure on the 3126, but the C7 and C9 had a test port at each end of the head under the rocker cover, -4 o-ring boss thread if i remember right. I believe it was a minimum of 800 LBS of oil pressure to fire the injectors.
BES is a 3126B reman engine. Does this sound right? If your scanner isn't showing any active codes and doesn't have the capability of reading the HEUI pressure then yes, you need to check it with a gauge. There should be a couple of blanking plugs in the oil gallery. Look near the HEUI pressure sensor, installed vertically above/behind the HEUI pump. Remove one of the plugs and install a gauge. I seem to remember that they look like a standard 9/16" stor boss fitting, but they aren't. Maybe some weird metric thread?
Your problem is not the low pressure fuel side. The PRV is set to open at 5psi, so applying 5-10psi like you did should give you fuel coming back to the tank. I agree with CM. Remove the oil pressure sensor from the HEUI pump and install a 5000psi pressure gauge. Crank the engine over and see what pressure you have in the HP side of the system. Regarding a wiring diagram, at the bottom of your engine data plate it should say something like "Use reference Numbers only to obtain Parts & Service Information" and there will be an original engine S/No and an Arrgt Number listed, like the photo. I need that number if you want a wiring diagram.
I'll check the psi today, the more i read about it the more im worried about the pump, nige i would app the schematic but im affraid we both know whats wrong here lol pj
Got the schematic. PM me your e-mail address if you want it. I tend to agree with you as to the likely root cause but you would be kicking yourself if you replaced the pump and then discovered a wiring fault in the engine harness wouldn't you......?
you bet i would lol
im affraid its the little heui pump, spec says 800psi on crank and i have 250psi...... anyone know of a rebuild shop?
Based on previous experience with HEUI pumps trying to rebuild them is a fruitless exercise. Chop it in for a Reman from somewhere (not necessarily Cat) ..?
got one coming out of ohio for $500 as apposed to $950 from cat (reman also) so i guess we'll see how it works out tomorrow.... there was a $500 core charge so apparently they want them back pretty bad lol pj
I think I'd be looking at the injection pressure control valve. Sometimes it just needs cleaning. Is your oil in good shape?
yeah it has about 3500 miles on it, the new pump did not come with a valve do you think i should order one anyways? its another $200 and no return allowed on electronics im sure from what i understand een if the IAP is bad it will still allow it to start but may just have poor performance?? pj
If the iapcv is not working it sometimes wont start. They also had some problems with the heui pump drive gear spinning loose on the shaft. Did you pull off the valve cover yet to see if there are any internal high pressure leaks on injectors? Not real common but easy to check.
no sir i did not check for leaks, to be honest it never even crossed my mind, i wanted to cap off the pump and check actual psi but didnt have the proper fittings and regular mechanical procedure called for removing the sender unit or a plug behind it and putting a manual gauge on it so thats what i did i did pull the pump and was quite suprised to see no indexing or splines but it did have 3 protrusions on the drive gear to grip the shaft and i can verify that it was not spinning on the shaft. the drive gear looked good with no signs of wear so i plan on reusing it but after thinking about it and the protrusions should i replace the gear to lessen the possibility of spinning? how about using some red loctite on the shaft/gear ? i tried to tear the pump down for a visual inspection but there was no way that i found to get into it, seemed to be pressed together and a non serviceble component. i did remove what appeared to be a check valve or maybe a pressure regulating valve ???? and it had a spring underneath it and it was all in good shape. i just cant wrap my head around how quick the damn thing died with no signs of failure coming on at all but i guess thats the way they go sometimes? the truck has always been underpowered as hell and we have joked and talked about putting a 2 spd rear end in it because with a 287 skiddy and a slight hill your liable to be down in 3rd gear running 40mph at times but at a whopping 190hp i always figured it was just underpowered, is it possible the huei pump has been proving poor performance for a while now in the form of low-ish power ?? pj
now we have 1700psi at huei pump on crank but still will not fire off.....any ideas?
Have you got the heui pressure sensor plugged in , it wont start if its unplugged. Can you read rpm on your scanner. If the ecm has no speed timing signal it wont start.
this is getting complicated now...... yeah the sensor is plugged in i have even swapped it out with another one off my d6n, the scan tool is reading rpm and when its running on ether the tach is working properly. I got a code 74 from the MIL and it shows an injector driver failure on 5&6 from what i can gather off of google ?? i unplugged an injector and used a LED testlight to varify that the comp is trying to fire the injectors.... i tried holes 1,3,5, and we are getting a blink on the light so I would figure we are good to go there ?? I pulled an injector, we have plenty of oil and plenty of fuel coming from the head in the respective passages, with key off cranking i have little to no HUEI pressure, with the Key on I have 1700psi so we know the IAP and the HUEI is functioning as it should, i have installed a hand primer pump and it gets very stiff when motor is cranking or running on ether so i am confident that the new transfer pump is supplying plenty of fuel i have not gauged it but to be honest i dont really see a reason to. I have checked the wire harness at the ECU and i do have power and ground where i should so that eliminates keyswitch, fuses, grounds, wire harness etc in my thinking ? I normally dont get stumped that often but if a motor has Air, fuel, high pressure oil, and a clear exhaust plus the injectors are getting power what the hell else is left ?? pj
would there be any chance that the ECU off my '07 d6n would work on this ? at least enough to see if it'll start and run ? Also is there anyplace that any of you know of that I can send the ECU off to get tested and reflashed if need be ? cat has to have it on the truck pj
I'd try a new Injection Actuation Pressure sensor thats on the head. Even if you tried the one off your D6N. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
I don't think that ECM will work. More pins I believe but might be worth a look. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
i can try an IAP if you guys think it'll be worthwhile, i was going to pick one up anyways because the one that was on it was leaking oil out of the top of it. i found a couple of places that will check out and program the ECU on the net, im going to go that route for the time being even if it doesnt fix it the truck needs HP it's a total dog..... could have been caused by the low HUEI psi but 190hp sucks anyway you look at it lol pj
In a situation like this, without ET, you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back I'm afraid. A couple of reasons I can think of for it maybe not starting; How long have you cranked it for? These things can take a LOT of winding over to bleed the air from the oil and fuel systems once they have been apart. You could try removing the speed/timing sensors, giving them a clean and putting them back in. Remote shutdown. The truck's not got an E-stop by any chance?
I read these threads about problems like this and I realize just how old I must actually be. No matter what brand the engine is, these electronic controls are better how? lol
Yair . . . Markat425 Me too mate. I find it absolutely amazing that the industry has embraced such bull****e . . . "embraced" may be a too strong word but the young blokes coming through see this stuff as "normal" and can't envisage a machine not controlled by a computer. Had an old mate give a start to a youngish but experienced dozerhand to run his old stick-shift D8 for a few days pushing mulga for cattle feed. The feller lasted about an hour and wanted the clutch backed off because it was making his arm ache . . . from memory they snapped over at about fifty pounds!!! Sheesh. Cheers.
If you're so keen to go back to the way "things used to be" would you be prepared to give up your cell phone..? Well control systems on machines have developed pretty much on the same lines over the past 30 years. I'm fast approaching the age of retirement yet I have no problem getting my head around diagnosing machine electronics.
PJ, call R&J Diesel in Warrensburg, he told me there was a place to send an ECU to get it checked & repaired, am thinking he said Springfield but can't remember for sure.
I think your best bet is to find someone with ET and have them hook up to the truck. You need to know if the ecm is trying to deliver fuel while cranking or if there is an active fault preventing injection. Your D6N is 24 volt system and the truck is 12 volt. I would not recommend swapping parts between the two as a valid test. The cost of having it checked with et should be fairly cheap and quicker then guessing. It would be nice to see what the ecm is registering for heui pressure and fuel delivery.
If these machines didn't have all these electronic controls then you wouldn't need to be diagnosing them, now would you. In my opinion the electronics are way too expensive, terribly unreliable, and raise maintenance costs considerably. Besides all that, they have not improved fuel economy as much as they were promoted to do either. Oh,,, my cell phone did not work much better than this man's truck. I THREW it away a few months ago and never looked back.
Mechanically controlled equipment needs diagnosing also and fact of the matter is, with the right tools electronics are just as easy to diagnose. I understand the tools are more expensive and harder to come by which is annoying when you just want to fix something yourself. That being said, I'd rather deal with electronics and modern amenities than repeatedly rebuild older equipment. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
You still gotta love the power you could make with a 3406C cat by the turn of a screw, no passwords...no software...just give it more fuel and run a million Km. I don't mind the electronics makes troubleshooting interesting but you just can't beat a good mechanical engine for being trouble free.
Yair . . . Nige . I have never owned a cellphone. It's coming up to my seventy second birthday though and I'm hearing whispers, seems something called an "ipad air" is my future . . . is that a phone? (big grin) And no I'm not all that keen to get back "to the way things were" but when I see continual references to blokes rebuilding machinery and trucks rather than risk their livelihoods with new machines I have to wonder at the way the system has evolved. I believe it to be unacceptable when electronic/electrical repairs on a crawler tractor can cost much the same as walking gear . . . as mentioned by a poster on this board and confirmed by acquaintances working hardrock. I believe it to be unacceptable when a contractor with half a dozen new excavators tells me almost with tears in his eyes that the f#@*ing things are going to break him because of ongoing mainly electronic/computer issues. He survived though and I believe has bought some early model machines and rebuilt them for work on remote area gas-fields, he's not game to take his new ones out there. I think it is unacceptable that new Station (ranch) dozer broke down( "throwing codes" I think is how they put it) fifty kays from the homestead and eight hundred miles from the agents and they had to actually chopper in a technician with his laptop. I could go on but I think you get my drift. It's all very well to spend a career on minesites with all the backup and spending someone else's money. It's something else again to be in the position of a lot of small contractors on here who are held to ransom by manufactures requiring paid access the use their electronic diagnostics to trace faults that should never happen. I respect your knowledge and generosity in sharing it on here. You come up with the best of jokes (he grins) but I don't think your position gives the best view of the problems posed by the many so called "improvements" to machinery out in the real world of small contractors monthly payments and having to make a dollar. Cheers.
Changed the IAPS and the crank/cam sensors and threw in a coolant level sensor while i was at it and still no fire......... I think I have came to the conclusion of sending the ECU to get checked out, if it checks good it still could use some extra HP anyways the whopping 190hp is pretty irritating at times I found a place in texas that will rebuild them for $640 and that includes HP and torque upgrades, and if it checks out good they'll just charge me the $65 diag fee plus the $100 upgrade so i figure 'eh what the hell i might as well keep throwing good money after bad on this POS lol. does anyone agree with my decision? pj
You said that to get a dealer to check out the ECM is an expensive business for an on-site service call. Is there any relatively easy way of getting the truck to the dealer..? To hook up ET to it and run a diagnostic would be like a 1 hour labour charge. The problem with sending your ECM to Texas is that if it's not the ECM that's the root cause of the issue you're back where you started with a non-running engine and $600+ poorer for it.
You called it right, the 3126 is a gutless POS....
Pj, I feel that the price for the upgrade is way fair, did you check transfer pump pressure, I had a c7 in a bucket truck run out of fuel all opened up, they used ether to get it down and out of the road, it was in a chevy 7500. New start, batteries and a pump. Then had to bottle feed before filters to get it primed and running, a real bitch it was. I had good rpm, actuation pressure, struggled with fuel pressure and air in system.
Be very careful in doing this!!!!!! Check this guy out thoroughly first....... I did the same thing with an ECM and sent it to a company in Florida. They "claimed" they repaired it and sent it back, i put the thing back on and it didnt work. So i called them and said there was a problem. Ended up sending it back to them for another look and waited about 2-3 weeks. I got tired of waiting and called them, they said UPS never sent it, i checked the tracking and they DID in fact receive it. I argued with them for about another week and they quit answering the phone. Turned out that they had done this multiple times with other people. Me being in Ohio it was too much of a pain to take them to court and too expensive, as im sure they already knew. The internet is a great thing for many reasons but there are a ton of Richard Craniums out there trying to make a quick buck!
lol, i found a guy with a website and everything so he's gotta be legit right :tong i have got prices from $640 to $1995 all seem to be offering the same service, so im going with the $640 lowballer we'll see if he turns out or not pj
Just saying i would be careful and make a few phone calls and get a comfort level. Usually if its too good to be true....... its sometimes too good to be true! And this is coming from one of the cheapest people on earth!
update, turned out to be a bad ECM apperantly it had all failed the injector drivers..... i would guess that when she ran outta fuel and all the jump starting we fried it....... or of course the ECM just failed and thats what made it shutoff but that doesnt explain the very low huei psi so hell i dunno, but she's running again at least. the reason i didnt attack the ECM first is because we had very low HUEI psi and when i put a noid light on the injectors it was blinking, but i guess it didnt have enough voltage to it to pop the injectors now it's hard to start and has a long crank time but im just happy to have it back up and running loads again, any thoughts on the hard start ? it cranks for 10 sec before it even tries to fire and then its an instant start, regardless of the ambient air temp...... im thinking about throwing an ammeter on the grid heater cables to make sure it's pulling its own weight. edit: i should add that they did not have the BES software so they just downloaded the origional 8YL program into it, is there any way that is creating the problem? my personal opinion is no because there is nothing else that interferes with the ECM outside of all the sensors ( which was also replaced lol) and they was all ordered for an 8YL pj
The first thing I look at with long cranking time is the speed timing sensors. At least now it's running you can drive it to your Cat dealer and have them plug in ET, see what's happening and flash the latest software at minimal expense.
Do you have the software Part Number they loaded into it..? I can soon tell you if it's the latest or not. Also remember back to your data plate although the engine S/N is BESxxxxx it tells you to refer to Engine S/N 8YLxxxxx when ordering parts.
While your waiting on reply i have a question about chipping the 3126b on a D6N it is weak ,especaily mine having a semi-u dozer blade.5.4 cy yard when full.Love the dozer very nice,dif steer,year 2004, hours are 5100. I have had pressure on the pump taking with it running (manual gauge) it was at 60LBs which i think is above normal or close.Runs great just weak.No miss or anything.RPM runs around 2350 range.Never drops below 2000 on heavy load.1900 is actually suppose to be the sweet spot for torque and hp by the book for the 3126. Cat won't update anything here for power (software) since it is construction it is a big no go.They wanted me to have them check it over,but have a capable mechanic that use to work for the same dealer check it ,but he can't do any up grade with out passwords. Can get a chip for around 500 to 600 dollars,just a couple brands i have looked at.Chip will be adjustable with switch..So what do you think? Not worried about heat since the machine runs extremely cool and usual not doing a lot of heavy dozing ,but needs a little help as to the power end.Thoughts?????
i had mine done at ecmfram.com 818-548-0060 the guy's name is micheal and he's a great guy. i paid $250 for the HP increase plus $640 for rebuild plus a litttle shipping was just under $1k might be worth a call Contructo ? 2123989-01 is the software that they put in it the engine serial number is BES566 (8YL25053) they increased to 275hp from 190. pj
Pj, does it run any better? Overworked
yes definatly a change in HP we havent loaded it and pulled hills yet but i am sure it resolved the issue pj
You've ended up with a ba**tard. Don't ever take it to your Cat dealer, they'll have a fit - and probably re-flash the software back to what "should" be in the engine. 8YL25053 is rated at 211 BHP @ 2200. The latest flash file for 211 BHP is a 246-8265. 212-3989 Flash File has been replaced by 246-8270. However even if your ECM was upgraded to that you would not see or feel any difference. The latest file just changes the way a few parameters are reported.
JP i just want to try the chip thing that way i can adjust it on the go,and less hassel taking off the ecm and sending off to get worked on. The chip is a TS Performance chip.It is used on a ag Cat Challenger with the 3126 B in it.I don't need a 275hp D6N !!!!!!does good on fuel just need some more ponies.They are rated at 145hp,but it feel like 90hp compared to the old 3306 in the D6C at 140 hp.I realize the 3306 has quite a few more cubes. Anyone have any thoughts?Should probably have posted this on the dozer forum. Does anyone know if they was the fuel rail pressure,supposly that is bad?
so should i send it back to them and have the newer program flashed in it in your opinion ? sureley they wont charge anything and i can have it back in 4 days. pj
I wouldn't TBH. What you have will work fine. Just out of curiosity ask the people who modified your ECM what Cat Engine Test Specification (something like 0Txxxx or 0Kxxxx) the 212-3989 Flash File corresponds to. I'm having difficulty finding data. If they give you that number post it here and I can have a look at the spec and see how it differs from what you have now. I'll e-mail you the new spec. The reason for that it they've told you your engine now has 275 BHP. How do you know for sure unless they show you what Test Spec it now conforms to..? All you can say for sure is that the engine feels stronger than what you had previously so it has more than 190BHP.
good point nige, i'll fire off an email to them now and we'll see what they respond. at first i was going to have them push it to 300hp but the little truck only has a 800lb trans pj
The test spec number I get with that flash file 212-3989 is 0k4029 which is rated at 207 hp and effective with serial number BES2266. From what I see that is the right flash file for your serial number. How did they rerate it 275 hp with that file?
That's what I couldn't get to jibe either ..........hence my diplomatic question. 207 is higher than 190 but nowhere near 275. It would be interesting to see how they claim to have got 275 out of an engine that according to the electronics should only be rated at 209. if they have played around with it by majorly altering FTS/FLS numbers I would be getting scared right about now. Strangely enough if you go back to Page 1 the Test Spec on the plate is quoted as 0K4029 @ 190BHP. The new version of 0K4029 must be 207 I guess 'cos that's what it shows now. Either way it's not 275. I think PJ just needs to confirm he got what he paid for (275BHP) and how exactly the "tuner" got it for him. We'd also love to know. .........
you guys got me nervous now lol, i just sent them a reminder email to check their email lol hopefully theyll get the hint to check it pj
this just in..... hello rick, the job no. 10982, the personality module no. 2468273-00, it also has latest version of soft wear when i asked him what test spec number was installed...... not really a straight answer is it ? pj
this was my response ---------------------let me ask you again, i need the test spec # that you installed. it should be start with an OTxxxx or an OKxxxx if i look up the software number you gave me it comes up as 207hp which is a long ways from 275, so i want to know how you went from 207 to 275 if you changed fuel trim that much could it be causing my hard start issue i am having right now? pj
Edit: Sorry, I was typing at the same time you were. Edit #2: Found it in the details of engine S/N 8YL21926, and now even more confused. 246-8273 is the latest version of what was originally 184-3441. Rated Power - 175 BHP @ 2200 RPM ............ ***..?
we might be closer to figureing something out, the job number he gave me to referrence to was to a bus company in alabama, they had a 3126 they rated at 176hp..... hopefully mine isnt 100hp off lol. im waiting on a call back but the guy seems pretty helpful although he is extremely reluctant to give up the test spec# ...... could be a reason lol pj
he just called back and gave me a different software number supposedly installed. my driver just called in and said when he was loaded pulling a hill he noticed no change in hp and still running 45mph up the hills in 4th gear unable to even think about higher gears..... oh and he has a 257B on him today now he says the # software2468257
You have mail ..............
ok so from what i understand there is NO WAY to make this little motor pump out 275 due to a multitude of internal hard parts being different and to top it off a 16:1 vs 14:1 compression difference. so in light of that i have sent an email request of them refunding the $250 for the HP re-rate and i will take it to cat and have them flash it to whatever they can and make it start quickly, I know they would put the orig software back in it at no charge but i cant be without the little truck again for a little while butt in the meantime i do need it to start when it's asked to do so lol i guess im just waiting on a response from them on correcting the problem, am i being un reasonable or should i let them try to correct the problem ? and just to be clear at this time i am in no way shape or form talking bad of them, they was cheap and the truck is running again. i think if i hadnt wanted to change something it would have worked out better ? pj
I think you'd be within your rights to ask for the $250 back, plus to ask them to install the 246-8270 (see above) software which is the correct file for your engine configuration.
Yair . . . I suppose powerjokes experiences here relate somewhat to John C's observations on the "machine longevity" thread. It seems folks can produce or manipulate files and components but they need to tidy their act and make sure they have it right. Cheers.
As everyone here knows my background is with Cat. I've lost track of the number of times when we've had to sort a customer's **** out after he tried to save a dollar or two by going somewhere else because the dealer was "too expensive". It used to be a large part of our business. Not to say that cheaper alternatives to the dealer don't work, of course they do in a lot of cases, but the customer still has to be careful and know what he's getting for his money.
I would highly recommend that you conclude your business with this guy asap. As i said before one of these "ecm programmers" kept my ecm and never answered his phone again. I had to buy another one from a salvage yard which was around $1200 + the $600 i paid that joker to fix my ecm...... clearly not worth it in the end.
wouldnt by chance be the same one would it ?? uh'oh pj
Doubt it... The guy i dealt with was from Florida. I think he was Cuban with a STRONG accent. Could barely speak English and his emails were written like someone not too familiar the English language.
........ uh' are you sure it wasnt texas and spoke spanish ? we might not be too far off lol pj