Hello everyone, I've been reading posts on this forum as a nonmember for awhile, figured I should join now that I bought my first piece of equipment. I purchased a John Deere 410 (old model) with known problems, because it's all I could afford. The problems that I know of are, the machine will move in low range but feels like its slipping, it will not move in high range tires pulse, machine sits and slips. The other main issue is when the machine runs awhile the hydraulics start moving slow, if you keep running the front bucket and hoe start creeping down. My first approach was going to be split the machine change the clutch and maybe get in to the reverser clutches. Then move on to the hydraulic issue after thats completed. Does this sound like a sound plan or is this a wrong approach? Forgive me for ignorance I know enough to be dangerous but lack experience. I also intend to change hydraulic filters and purchase a set of gauges. Thank you in advance for any assistance.
Welcome to the forum, and I'm no Deere guy. It sounds like you picked up one with a whole lot of needs. Transmission, hydraulic pump and seal issues are going to keep you working on it for a while. Hope someone with more knowledge will come in and assist.
Thank you for the reply. I figure I'll know a little about machines by the time I'm done getting this one going. Expanding our winery/vineyard intend for this 410 to do a lot of the work. Really don't want to dive in to splitting the hoe unless it's necessary.
Do you have a Deere technical manual? I'm not familiar with that one, but the manual I have is great at explaining the workings of the system. I believe, from reading on here, that the "reverser" as deere calls it may be the same one used on other makes like Case, so if you can figure out what you have, you may find everything you need to know on here. Since you're buying the gauges, I'd definitely take the readings BEFORE splitting the tractor. When it's cold and working and when it's warmed up and working, and temperature readings at the pump, hydraulic tank, oil cooler, transmission. If you find that the reverser and the hydraulic pump are both toast, I'd say you're better off cutting your losses before putting any time into it.
Sounds like solid advise. I have manual for a 310, which I understand is very similar, if not the same systems. I've read about reverser clutches forward and reverse, I've only heard people talk about changing forward clutches not reverse. Not sure if it's difficult to change reverse or they rarely need changed. As far as temps. go, I have a IR thermometer is that sufficient for tank and pump temps. or do I need to measure fluid temp?
Good enough for what it's for. You're probably right about the 310 being the same, and you'll know it if you run into a difference.
The difficult part is the manual describes a lot of flow tests and hydraulic test equipment I don't have. I'm going to do my best to pressure test what I can and get into the filters and screens. I haven't found any way to tell if the main engine clutch is faulty or, reverser or, it's hydraulic pressure that's making the machine slip. My thought is if I figure something out with hydraulics and it still slips, I'll then go from there. Not sure if the problems are separate or the same.
I have a 310 that was slipping as you describe in the higher gears. I was able to get it going again by adjusting the clutch pedal linkage.
As I work through this i will update findings and progress, in case anyone else has this trouble. Today it's getting washed with hot water pressure washer before I get started. Might make my life a lot easier
Wino The 310 and 410 hyd. systems can be totally different depending on the year. Also be sure you have a straight 410 and not 410A,B,C, There are some differences. If you P.M. me your email addy. I will send you the pdf. copies of the technical, parts and owners manuals for the 410. It cost me a few bucks to get them so I don't normally offer them up. My advice (having worked countless hours on mine and split it twice) is to get your gauges first and test your pressures. The Hyd. is a common sump system. There is a Trans. pump that supply's the trans and reverser with oil as well as sends oil to the main pump. You can test the pressures of both pumps with two test ports on the side of of the main pump. If the pressures are low there are a few things to check before taking anything apart. Andy
I steamed the machine today, and found while playing around the brake pedals creep down to the floor and, you lose brakes. Let the pedals back up and they creep slowly down again. I'm not sure if this is related but I was under the impression the brakes are part of the main hydraulic system.
Not related at all to your problem but the brakes do use oil from the hydraulic system.
You may have read my post from 2011 about the trans. screen. But if not, your model may have a screen like mine that is near the hyd/trans filters HeavyEquipmentForums Screen removal and flushing would be worth a try.
this is what I found, if I'm not mistaken the trans screen is behind one side of this pinched line. If this is the culprit, I would be very happy. If not, I still need to change this. Anyone ever change this line? What did you use so that it doesn't pinch, does it need to come from Deere?
You are correct. I changed the hose and Deere wasn't all that expensive, any hose shop should be able to match it up. There are two bolts holding the horizontal filter base on in slotted holes. The filter was removed but I'm not sure it's necessary. I removed the bolts and used a wood wedge to hold it back (towards right rear tire), leaving the other lines attached at the top. Once the base is moved and hose is removed the part on the trans. un-threads. The screen should wiggle out. The hose may be a little too long on yours and might be compressing. Mine was not wrinkled as bad, but I just assembled everything minus the hose and measured and the replacement is not as bad as the one that I took off. Once I removed the screen, I checked the trans. housing with a magnet. After finding debris, I began flushing with diesel, vacumming and using a magnet to clean the trans.
I intend to start that process tomorrow, after that, I'm going to start checking pressures. I'm assuming the hydraulic reservoir needs to be drained before the screen is pulled. Did you have any issues using napa hydraulic fluid instead of hygard? I have 5 gallons of hygard but at 75.00 price tag a cheaper option would be nice. Also, how many gallons does the system hold? Thank you for your help Wino
Yes the trans. reservoir has to be drained and has two drain plugs, front and back. You may just have to remove the front one, but I ended up removing both with my issues. They take an 1-1/4" wrench/socket I think and may be the same size as the threaded part in trans. to remove screen, but I'm not 100% sure on size. I used TSC's fluid after the initial screen change. After maybe 80 hours, drained trans and rechecked for debris, finding none, changed filters again and used Hygard. No problems with TSC's fluid but I just went with Hygard for what I hope is a long time so the extra cost wasn't too bad in my opinion. I think I used about 10-12 gallons for the trans drain/filter change each time.
I believe you would need to match the Deere specifications because the wet brakes work in the oil you are replacing.
Drained the transmission today, and fixed the pinched line. Unfortunately this wasn't the problem. The screen didn't look too bad. This did drop out of the rear plug of the trans. I don't think this is related to my problem but it doesn't look good! Next I'm putting the gauges on it.
Did you fish around with a vacuum or magnet to see what else you could find? Hope you didn't refill it already. How about some scale on that rivet, like a pic next to a ruler or coin. Somebody will have a pretty good idea where that came from, this will be fun.
From the look of it someone found a piece of hose laying around and put it on with a couple clamps. If that is a suction line, just need some hard wall hose so it won't collapse
I did fish a magnet around, didn't get anything to speak of. I figured I would continue to trouble shoot, when I get working again, I'll pull the top of the trans. off. If I have to get into splitting the machine, I would investigate further, it may need a transmission for all I know.
It could be part #3 which is a solid rivet. It's also in the same vicinity if not right over the rear drain plug.
I tested pressure on the reverser today, it was 100 psi, manual says it should be 160 psi. The manual also says to verify transmission oil pump is working properly before making adjustments. Does anyone know if I can do this with a pressure gauge and not a flow meter?
Wino Any progress on the repair?
Here is my update, been real busy lately and haven't got as far as I would have liked. I tested the pressure of my reverser and found it low. I believe, I need to verify other pressures first before I change anything based on that pressure. I spoke to a equipment mechanic about what i need to flow check the transmission pump. He felt that I was over thinking the whole issue, said "if the trans. Pump is moving fluid it's probably fine, they rarely go bad." I need to get the proper fitting to test the hydraulic pump. I think I can test the trans. Pump pressure on the lower fitting on the hydraulic pump? The guy I spoke to believes I have 2 separate problems, one he feels is a hydraulic pump, the other he's not so sure but, thinks the first step would be change filters regardless of how they look. First of the week I'm getting a fitting and I'll know a little more. BTW, I sent you a bottle of wine, it came back to me, didn't make it for some reason or other. I'm going to try it again.
If I remember correctly the trans pump feeds oil to the hydraulic pump, so if the pressure or flow are low it probably affects the hydraulic system as well. I agree that the trans pumps rarely go bad, but rarely ain't never if you get my drift. I'm thinking there's a pressure regulator valve somewhere in that system for trans pump pressure and it may actually be in one of the filter heads, but I won't swear to it, it's been way too many beers, er, ahem, years.
If I put a gauge on the hydro pump, and say the pressure tests good. then I run the machine, to heat up the system, and make my loader run slow, if the pressure is now low, is this a definitive test to say I have a bad hydraulic pump?
I would say no, because of all the other components in the system that could cause low pressure due to bypassing, or possibly a lack of feed flow to replenish the system. I don't know if your local Deere dealer has a test stand for these pumps, or maybe a hydraulic repair shop. Back when I worked on these our local dealer rebuilt them in house and had a test stand, they would happily take our pumps and test them, and if they just needed control work would tune them up. It's an odd system, now working from memory of a 510, the trans pump supplied half the oil that the hydraulic pump required at full flow, the other half was recirculated from the loader or backhoe valve with any excess being dumped out I believe through the hyd oil cooler. Point is there's lots of things to go wrong and it's hard to diagnose, especially with just a pressure gauge. I noticed that one of the symptoms you describe is that after everything gets well warmed up both the loader and the backhoe start to bleed down, now that has nothing to do with the pump, it's either cylinder seals or something in the valve spool sections bypassing. Hang in there, you'll get her. The good news is, thousands of these were built and they're pretty bulletproof when they're running good.
It's been awhile since I've updated, so here it goes. I put a gauge on the pressure side of the hydro pump, at 3/4 throttle I'm getting 2200 psi. When I move the loader controls my pressure will drop to about 800 psi or so. When I move the hoe controls pressure falls way off down to 200 psi. I'm not sure if this diagnoses anything or if this is normal? I also discovered my left brake works pretty good, solid pedal good braking. The right brake is nonexistent, never could tell because the pedals were hooked together. Anyone ever do brakes on one of these machines? Starting to give up on this thing, don't have the knowledge of the system. I feel like if I just knew what to fix, it would be no problem.
Well, the spec is 2350 psi so that's not far off. Thing is you're getting pressure with no flow but the instant you try to take oil from the pump to do some work, like move the loader or backhoe, there's no oil coming out. The internal leakage is enough to lose pressure. When it's working right you should have something like 2,000 psi even when you're moving the loader or backhoe, that's how the pump is supposed to work, up to it's maximum flow it tries to keep it's outlet pressure at a constant 2350 psi, from zero flow to as much as it can pump at whatever rpm it's turning. Something to keep in mind when looking over hydraulic lines and hoses that get pressure direct from the pump, if you blow a line THE WHOLE SYSTEM WILL EMPTY OUT THE HOLE AS FAST AS IT CAN PUMP. Been there seen that, wasn't pretty. In no particular order, could be a problem with: The transmission pump or it's suction line. The hydraulic pump can't suck, it has to be pressurized by the transmission constantly, oil has to flow in before it can be pumped out. Several different relief valves and regulator valves in the system, everything is codependent. Need the service manual for this, they're everywhere. Bad hyd pump or pump control block. An internal bypass somewhere, steering, brakes, etc. You can check this somewhat be disconnecting and properly capping the lines going to the steering and brakes, thus eliminating any bypassing in those functions. Same for the loader valve and backhoe valve, but do one at a time and see if you get better readings. What kind of pressure do you get at just above idle, both transmission and hydraulic? If you move the loader valve while reading transmission pressure, what does it do? I'm still thinking with the reverser issues you have that your hydraulic problem may well lie in the transmision circuits... Have you removed the two relief valves from the hydraulic filter head and checked to be sure they're in good condition and not sticking open? The one is just a bypass, but the other regulates return flow to be recycled back to the hyd pump IF I'm remembering that right.
I haven't checked any valves yet, but I will soon. When checking the valves what am I looking for? Just worn or missing packings, dirt and debris ect. It sounds like the right brake issue my be connected to the problem. If I have to split the tractor, I feel like I should replace the clutch, trans pump and brakes while I have it apart, if that makes any sense to do? When you say properly block off lines should I be able to purchase caps from my hydraulic shop to do that? Thank you for any advice in advance!
The valves in the filter head will be under large plugs, there's a spring and a cone shaped piece for the bypass and the other has a spring and a spool I think, yeah just loooking for something obvious, broken spring, stuck spool, chunk of something hung up in there. Probably won't find anything but it's something you can check without too much hassle. Yes, that's what I meant you can buy the correct caps or plugs from a hydraulic or hose shop, everything on this old machine will be either JIC flare or SAE o-ring. If it comes down to splitting the tractor I would for sure plan on inspecting everything and resealing the reverser during the inspection. Many years ago I did a 510 down to the bare case. Backhoe comes off first and all the tin I think, then split the two halves. I would do the brakes after marrying the halves back up, or before splitting it, whichever seems to make sense at the time, as you have to pull the rear axles off at the main case, easier to do it it's all together and I would just do one at a time just to keep the machine somewhat stable while working on it.
I finally got the chance to put a pressure gauge on the supply side of the hydraulic pump. At idle I've got 0psi, at 3/4 throttle I'm getting 50psi. When I operate different functions, like the loader at 3/4 throttle I get a pressure drop to about 10 to 20psi. Driving the hoe I'm at around 30psi. Interestingly if I extend the hoe the pressure will rise to nearly 100psi, but when I retract it, I get down to about 10psi. I figure this is because extending actually retracts a cylinder, which sends fluid back to the system? Is this a definitive sign that I have a transmission pump problem, or at least narrow it down to something specific? I haven't got a chance to buy hydraulic caps to isolate systems yet.
Kinda still in the same place, but it's another clue. Either the transmision pump or it's associated valves can't deliver enough oil on the supply side of the hyd pump, or you have too much leakage on the pressure side of the hyd pump. I'm guessing your hyd pump is probably okay though, you just need to get the oil supply problem solved.
We'll I hired a guy who is a tractor technician for Kubota to help me. I didn't feel like I was going to get there on my own. His first recommendation was to get into the right brake, find out why it goes to the floor, and see if my mystery part came from there. He didn't think that was the cause of my hydraulic issue but, he felt that it's a potential source of debris that could be In the system. Says it needs fixed anyway, and may tell a lot about what's going on. Sounded like a reasonable plan to me, or he could be wanting to take along time to figure out the issue lol! I try to post some good pics and info along the way thank you for everyone's help so far it means a lot
must have got her fixed then I guess. Would like to know what it turned out to be cause I have the same problem.
Yes, Please let us know the result please Wino. I still make it here the odd time to see if you have sorted your problems.
Well thanks to you guys and all the great info here. I found out the reason for my slow hydraulics on my old 410 jd. I went to check the trans relief valve and discovered that the spring that holds the valve in place was missing. the valve itself was fine but no spring to keep it held in place . this prevented most of the fluid from feeding the main pump causing it to work very slow. it did however have plenty of power. now to fix the other problems on the hoe. again thank you all very much. Don