Hi guys, Newbie here (first post to forum) Have similar problem but I think more complicated. Have a hydraulic problem with a JD410 backhoe. All systems, (4in1, bucket lift, hoe and stabilisers) are ultra slow (bucket lift being the worst). Can get all bar the lift and bucket tilt to full speed and power after cycling through full range of movement a few times. Sometimes the lift and tilt resolve themselves, but all lose speed and power after approx 10 minutes. once this occurs can only get 6-8inches of lift in bucket lift and tilt up rams. Machine recently blew a hyd line which drained the whole system. Filters and oil replaced and strainers where cleaned. Machine operated perfectly for approx 120min after service. Intial thoughts were low oil (guys who did the flter and oil replacement had overfilled by approx 40litres!! have drained off enough so level is just under max. But still as above.drained the oil via the hyd pump return line to ensure pump still working. seems ok. Power steering has never had the above problems. Any ideas from the brains trust out there.
Welcome to the forum jd410. You've written a good post, one that deserves its own thread instead of being hidden in a non-related thread. If you get your 3 posts in to change your status to Jr Member, I'll move this post to it's own thread for you so others can respond if they have suggestions. BTW, is it a 410? or a 410B, 410C, etc?
Thanks Willie59, Hopefully that has done it? Cheers
No worries mate, I'll take care of it. Welcome to the forum. :usa
I'm no Deere 410 expert, no little about them, but I do know they use a variable displacement pump. They also have a solenoid that de-strokes the pump when cranking engine so engine doesn't crank under load. They also have a manual de-stroke valve on the pump that you can operate to allow engine to get warmed up in very cold climates without engine being under pump load. But it doesn't make logical sense that either of these components would be your problem if everything about the hydraulics of the machine go south after about 2 hrs work, except steering. Except steering is the curious part. Are you saying steering works proper in all cases of machine acting unusual?
Thanks for the welcome guys. It only started going South after the first 2 hours after the service. So every time I start the machine I have to ëxercise all rams to maybe get the machine to operate for a small amout of time. I tried it again 2day after my last post and after 15min was able to just get the bucket to lift the front wheels off the ground enough to fix a flat tyre. How does the destroke solenoid revert to normal ops after the engine is started (i.e does it have a cct breaker) or broken wire that intermitently stops it destroking? Yes the power steering still works regardless??
Well, I'm no Deere tech, and I can't put my finger on what's causing your problem, can't even say that the failed hose that drained the tank even caused the problem. It could have, just don't know how. I'm not sure how the soleniod destroke valve works, if your pump has one, my best guess is it operates when you are cranking the engine, gets a voltage input from starting circuit. The manual destroke valve on pump is just that, manually operated. It's used to aid engine warm up during extreme cold so engine isn't under pump load while warming up. I really can't say the pump is good for certain, but I'm thinking pump is good. Reason I say that is you stated during machine operation, whether loader/hoe is operating or malfunctioning, you still have steering, especially if it still steers easily while machine is sitting still with load in bucket. The basic nut and bolts of that hyd circuit works like this; oil is drawn from tranny reservoir by charge pump mounted on end of main pump. Charge pump sends oil to filter, a relief valve is fitted in filter in case filter were to clog and sends oil back to sump. Charge oil leaves filter and goes to main pump. Pump is a variable displacement radial piston pump fitted with internal pressure sensing stroke control valve to control pump output. All hyd valves on machine, loader control valve, backhoe control valve, and steering orbit valve, are closed center, meaning, when no function of valve is being used, they are blocked ports, basically a hyd dead end, oil does not flow out of the valves. When you start the engine, main pump begins to deliver oil. Oil encounters dead ends at control valves and pressure increases in pump output line. At a certain PSI of pressure increase, a port opens in stroke control valve and "destrokes" the pump, the pump holds and maintains this preset pressure in the pump output line, this is known as "standby pressure". Oil leaves the main pump and first goes to the pressure control valve, which is actually a priority valve. The pressure control valve gives priority to backhoe valve, outriggers, and steering. Steering priority is what allows you to be driving the machine while raising a load in the bucket and still be able to steer. The pressure control valve also has a relief valve that dumps exsessive pressure to tank if there were pressure spikes on the system. The fact that you still have proper steering operation is what puzzles me about your problem. This tends to indicate the pump is operating proper. Granted, steering does not require the amount of pressure to operate as does, say, loader lift with load, but it does indicate pump is operating. Another thing that puzzles me is backhoe has priority the same as steering. If steering is working proper, theoretically, the backhoe functions should work fine as well. Once thing I'm curious about, if you have the machine sitting still and turn the steering all the way to end of steering cylinder stroke and hold wheel tight there, does it make the engine go under load indicating pressure increase?
The OP has not stated how many hours, or which model of 410 he has (as Willie had asked) and that will make a huge difference in what systems are on the machine. If I remember correctly the 410 was one of the first to come with a variable piston pump that employed a closed center system with load sensing capability. Willie has moved forward with that assumption but I request that the OP confirm this. There are many older 410s out there with open center gear driven pumps too. In the mean time I will jump on the band wagon. I had some issues that were similar, though not as severe, as this on my 416C. My problem turned out to be bad o-rings in the resolvers. It was several of them and this has a direct affect on the load sensing. My machine was very high hours (over 11,000) so we are back to the OP as to how many hours are on the machine and what model it is.
thanks DGODGR for your input, sorry I thought i had given model and hours, oops. Model is a confirmed 410 year is unknown but Very few hours on clock (756hrs) so I assume it would be one of the later versions. If there is a plate or means of narrowing the year down I'd love to know for parts and system purposes. To answer your Q Willie, And sorry for not ensuring previous info was correct, No the engine does not loadup on full lock in both directions and will still slowly turn if pressure applied to the wheel. The hoe works slowly but has no guts, for example placing the hoe bucket on ground and trying to lift tractor rear end. There is little if any movement even under full throttle. Same applies to the outriggers. They still move hundreds of times quicker that the loader!! Reason I mwntioned destroke solenoid is that if I disconnect the electrical conection to the solenoid I should have the destroke valve closed during starting and system should always be at full pressure Will try this 2day to see if it makes a differrence.
Thanks for more info on steering and backhoe operation. That helps, but still doesn't answer question of what problem is, hopefully we'll get there. It would help to know which version 410 it is. As DGODGR mentioned, some of the older ones had gear pumps with open center circuits. The letter versions were similar, but the B series had a slightly different pump than the C, D, and E. It sounds like you do have a pressure and/or delivery problem, just not sure at this point what would cause the problem.
JD410, Please look at the models in this photo. I know you have a 410, not a 310 but the models are very similar. If your 410 has no letter after the 410 its probably an older model 1971 to 1982. I had a 1981 410. There were no letter marked on the loader arm. Just 410. JD410 if you can identify your model your will be one huge step ahead for getting help. Willie 59, if JD410 has the older model, the engine was started in cold weather by lifting a lever on the clutch pedal to allow the pedal to go down farther than normal to open a car like dry clutch that disconnected the engine from the drive train. That is the only time that machine was quiet. As soon as you let up the clutch a little the machine noise became much louder. With clutch in cold start mode, the only thing that was turning with the motor was the piston pump up front.
Definately low back seat, open cab, hi exhaust stack RHS. will post pics shorty.
Again guys thank you for your input and Deon no lever on the clutch pedal. will place some pics in the next hour. I also assume that all these models have a hoe slide i.e hoe can be positioned left or right of the machine or somewere in between.
Just found a plate obscured on the RHS chassis rail near hyd pump. After some cleaning and swearing managed to get the following id 410 - D. I assume that means it is a 410d, there was no other plates or marking I could find. Also i'm dyslexic exhaust stack LHS from OP position.Having found that plate and reviewing the 310d pic above there are lots of differences eg. loader bucket ram on 310d single mine double and parallel to loader arms, No cabin or indications that one was or could be attached, and open engine compartment with air filter not visible above bonnet. Could be mine is a Australian variant of US version?
outriggers when retracted are up under hoe rail and do not extend out from the rear wheels hope this also helps
I'm quite certain you have an Australian variant, not usual for Euro or Australian machines to be different from US machines. I've never seen a 310 or 410 that uses anything but single bucket tilt cylinder in the center, and the side shift backhoe is another feature that is common to Euro and Aus machines, don't see many of them in the US, occasionally see a JCB set up with side shift hoe.
I think that he amy have an older version. Didn't they come with (2) tilt cylinders that were tucked in between the loader arms?
Sorry Dgodgr my name isn't he amy. (joke) and the tilt rams are tucked in between loader arms. Having lots of hassles loading crap photos (sun in wrong position), and thanks Willie for the correct name for my description of a side shift hoe. If it also helps, air cleaner is mounted above hyd pump in front of radiator, and 4in1 bucket has an elec switch mounted on loader control arm for operation of bucket opening rams.
JD410, You definitely have an older version. A real 410D does not have a clutch pedal. I'll bet if you look at the clutch pedal arm/shaft, you will find a piece of metal that is attached with a pin or bolt. That piece can be rotated upwards so as to let the clutch travel farther. Could be seized if not used. I'm not totally sure I am describing it correctly but that is what I remember. Also it is possible yours is different than mine. It is also possible that the Australian model is really very similar to the North American model except for the side shift hoe. Do you have 2 stick shifts in the floor? One for selecting gears 1 to 4 and the other for selecting neutral or park. Also, if like my 1981 410, the gears are 1st at upper left, 2nd at lower left, 3rd at lower right and 4th at upper right. Also your clutch is time delayed as it is activated by an accumulator (cylinder located on the right side of engine near starter motor) to soften the release so you can shift forward and reverse at full throttle. Hope I didn't confuse you all to much.:tong
My 410 is somewhere between '75 and '82 and the serial number starts with 410D. I also have the stop on the clutch lever you speak of and twin loader bucket cylinders. Mine has a variable displacement pump.
Deon and OldandWorn, Thanks for the info/pic. From first glance that looks the same as my 410 except bucket and hoe. Two sticks on floor 1-4th as described above. 2nd low and hi range (possibly mid range as well) long time since i have used anything but low range.Time delay as described using fwd/rev lever on lower left side of steering wheel. Machine now has no hyd muscle at all, can stow hoe raise and lower outriggers. can just get loader to lift front wheels off ground. Another curiousity is when trying to move any ram (steering exception) with engine speed above idle,ram will stop moving. No mate not confused yet. I tried disconnecting destroke sol and it made no difference. Is there anyway to check destroke solenoid piston stuck in open position?:bash
Will check for lever slash pin 2day
JD410, I think I know why your steering is not affected. The steering valve I believe is its own pump. I found this photo in the JD online parts catalogue. I remember feeling the pulsing when turning on the steering wheel. If I am correct then your hydraulic pump is not needed for steering pressure. It may get its oil supply from the supply pump but you are creating your own pressure simply by turning the steering wheel.
Another thing jd410, your hydraulic pump has 8 pistons and about 38 o-rings. Its a known fact that old o-rings running in hot oil will dry up and fall into pieces. Your pump could be pumping oil round and round within the pump but without good o-rings your output pressure is gone. Maybe willie59 or someone with more hydraulic experience can comment on this theory.
Here's a good pic of an older 410 like Old and Worn posted, not a letter series 410. The ID tag says 410-D. I'm not certain, but it's possible that the D designates it was built in Dubuque. http://www.auctiontime.com/OnlineAuctions/Details.aspx?OHID=7907589&lp=mat That first pic you posted is the steering orbit valve Deon. All the info I can find on the 410 shows the steering orbit valve gets oil feed from pressure regulating valve, but I would happily admit to be in err if I come across something that says otherwise. There is a pile of o-rings and backup rings in the main pump, but the pistons and inlet/outlet valves have no seals, most of the seals/backups on the main pump are to seal the various plugs and caps. However, the stroke control valve does have a few spools that have o-rings and backup rings that could cause havoc with pump operation if they were to fail. The thing I'm not familiar with on these machines is the procedure one would follow to do troubleshooting of a problem. Since pumps in general, hydrostat in particular, do two things, produce flow and pressure, there are different ways of testing circuits on various machines. The Deere machines I just don't have a lot of experience with.
Willie59, am I correct when I say the steering valve is actually creating its own pressure to work the steering cylinder? Parts 20 look like the same design as hydro-slave marine steering systems. If so then all the steering valve needs from the machine is oils supply without much pressure. About the stroke control valve. How difficult would it be to just pull it and inspect the o-rings? Maybe easier than finding and performing the test procedure.
Item 20 is acting as a valve plate Deon, it's what makes that orbit valve a closed center valve. Pressurized oil enters the P port of orbit valve and goes to a port at one of those loop cavities in that valve plate. As long as the valve plate isn't being turned (not turning steering wheel) oil is trapped in that cavity, closed center porting. Once you turn the valve plate it carries the oil pressure to an A or B outlet to steer cylinders depending on which way you turn the wheel. Stop turning the valve plate, ports are once again blocked. Probably wouldn't be difficult to pull the spools and such of the stroke control valve to check seals. But if it required removing one of the spring adjusting caps, I would be wary doing that as it would change the load/unload values of the pump. I've never set up one of those pumps before so I have no info I could pass along doing that.
hey guys, Thanks again for the input. managed to get small weight in loader manually!! steering now very limited whilst stationary under a Small weight.the small elephant on the clutch pedal magically appeared but did not change much on start up. (I assume cold start means 0c or below. would adjusting the pressure help? Guys, would like a possible solution to at least try to make something happening. a PM is fine if that helps :Banghead
I remember reading a old parts/maintenance manual on hyd pumps for I think jd's that there is a pressure control valve/screw etc located on the top lhs of the hyd pump. From memory Full/highest pressure was /is obtained by winding inner screw out of larger locknut. Mine seems to be wound fully down, would winding this screw out possibly alleviate any blockage in system/s or do I risk blowing more hoses if my memory is correct. ointhead
Thanks again willie for the logic and the caution. have fixed flat tire and moved machine To LEVEL ground hyd oil level is still over max by approx 3/4in will drain more 2morrow am. Doubt this will solve problem?
No other oil/water level are abnormal so no chance or cross leakage!
My hydraulic level has been about an inch over the mark ever since I bought it and I haven't noticed any problems because of it. If you do a Google search on "410 deere" you will find various sites that have military parts and service manuals for your machine in PDF format. They start with TM and have a lot of numbers after. I have to leave for work right now but I can give you more info on the manuals if you can't find them. They are free to download. The site I got mine from is called "Scribd"
Willie59, Thanks for all that. You keep saying your not familiar with John Deere but I can see you've been around hydraulics a lot. I enjoy learning from your experience and knowledge.:notworthy
Well, thank you for the compliment Deon. :drinkup Yes, sadly, I'm not familiar enough with Deere circuits like these loader/hoes to have an good ideas of how to form a process for troubleshooting them. Hydraulics in general are pretty much the same, the theory and process of pumping and controlling fluid power differs little, it's the components and methods of controlling the fluid power that varies. Wish I knew more about these things because there doesn't seem to be a great deal of Deere techs here. :beatsme
I have a question, did you clean that strainer inside the transmission? Item #16.
Willie, What Deon said mate, thanks again. Yes that strainer was cleaned.
Drat...back to the idea board. :Banghead
Hey jd410....Question on that strainer. I want to clean mine some day but it looks rather difficult to get out because of the short hose and a filter canister that looks to be in the way. Do you have to remove the filter canister assembly to get the screen out?
hello jd410,welcome to the forum.i have a 1982 jd310 which i believe is a very similar machine,which guys on the forum have given me a lot of good advice in the last couple of months,i.ve had some similar problems,i,ve been reading these posts,but have not seen any suggestions about checking standby pressure at the top fitting on your front hydraulic pump.if you don,t have 2200psi pressure at the pump,and a minimum of 1200 to 1300 at the lower fitting when you activate a function, then nothing but the steering is going to work,because it gets priority over everything else,i would be checking that first,as long as you are sure your filters,and fluid is not the issue,hope this helps,sbarrett
Thanks sbarrett, apologies for the late response have internet issues. Will give the pressure a go this week and see what happens. Old and Worn I didn't personally remove said strainer, but the guys who did had no problems and did it pretty quickly.
Pressure adjust no good. Willie for my own edification:does a digging machine have its hyd filter b4 or after hyd pump. schematics i have are unreadable, i assume they would be after as they are on everything i have previously encountered (non digger backhoe etc). I have come up against hyd/oil systems that once drained and empty for awhile tend to cough up lots of crap that block new filters quickly (not this quickly). This theory (IMHO) supports the logic that the last system to Go was the steering, given that it has the priority and the smallest rams. Would appreciate your thoughts.
Sbarrett, sorry mate, meant to thank u for this reminder/idea as well. Don't have the equip to do pressure test yet but i'm looking.
My experience with variable displacement pressure compensated pumps has been that the the pump is spring loaded to full stroke at start up, flow is blocked at the closed center valve, pressure rises and destrokes the pump and maintains a neutral position at a residual pressure of 250 to 350 PSI depending on the setting on that particular pump. Once you open the control valve that pressure will drop allowing the pump to go into spring loaded full stroke. At this point the compensator valve on the pump will take control and destroke the pump when system pressure is reached. Failure of the spring in the pump will cause it to either not stroke or just go into minimum stroke. Considering that you have some activity when machine is cold, two things have happened, 1. the metal has contracted because it is cold and 2. the oil is thicker. This may allow things to move until the metal heats up and there is a binding in the spring side mechanism. All that said, you could also have a similar problem in the main relief at the control valve.You could also have a worn out swash plate that lets the pistons float with hot oil and when the oil is cold the slippers may seal somewhat. The slippers are on the bottom of the pistons and ride on the swash plate and there is a hole through the piston to lube the slippers, this keeps the pistons in balance. If the swash plate is scored the slippers can't seal and the pistons loose their balance and won't generate the pressure to operate the system.
The Deere variable displacement pump is a bit different oldseabee. It doesn't use a swash plate to change the output of the pump. Instead, it has pistons in a radial configuration with a rotating eccentric cam that operates the pistons. Spring loaded valves operate the inlet charge of piston chambers as well outlet ports of piston chambers. Standby pressure is achieved by the stroke control valve opening and allowing system pressure to enter the case that the cam rotates in. When the pressure inside case increases, it forces the pistons outward, away from cam, thereby stopping and stabilizing output of pump. JD410, on these particular machines, the filter is prior to the main pump. Oil is drawn from tranny reservoir through the stainer mentioned previously to prevent large particles from entering system. Oil is drawn to the charge pump. It leaves charge pump under pressure, flows through filter, then goes to main pump to charge pump with oil. There is a pressure relief valve at filter in case filter clogs which dumps oil back to reservoir.
I guess that proves that no matter how old you are there is something out there to learn. Thank's Willie. I dealt mostly with Rexroth and Sunstrand systems.
LoL, I wish these things had a Rexroth or Sunstrand system, I would know a little more about them. :tong
I had a JD 310 which was giving me problems years ago. If you haven't already, remove the destroke solenoid, inspect it and install new O rings. That was what fixed my problem.
You may want to remove and clean your relief valve. Usually located in the loader valve body. Relief valve opens every time you reach full stroke on any cylinder. Dirt and debris in the system will hold relief valve open. It may need new orings as well.