Ok so, i know that Deere uses Hitachi excavators, but what are the ins and outs of the whole thing? Who makes what? Does Hitachi make Deere's compact exvavators or does Yanmar do that now? Are all the mid-sized excavators made by Hitachi? Exactly what parts are Hitachi and whats Deere. I know Deere uses some of there own engines but what else? Hydraulics? And lastly what about the large excavators, i know that the Deere 470G, 670G, and 870G all use Isuzu engines, and so does Hitachi, yet in each comparable model, there is different models of Isuzu engines (i believe). Why arent they the same? Does anybody have any opinions on which brand is better? Or is it just comparing apples to apples? Im interested in any knowledge, opinions, and ideas anybody has on this topic, and Deere's relationship with Hitachi in general.
MHO, I have no experience with the smaller rigs, we have a 800 Deere and an 800 Hitachi and the only difference is paint and the seat cover. The deere has 16,000 plus hours. We also run several 750 Hitachi's with N14 Cummins, the Cummins is not a good match and only one has made it over 10,000 hrs. The Isuzu is a better engine in my opinion, like the energizer bunny. Our 350 and 450 deere had engine issues with the previous owners but I cannot speak for how well they were cared for, If you run the JD engine out of fuel it's a major PIA to get running. If I were purchasing it would be orange with an Isuzu!. Lee
Hitachi made the deere machines in the start, deere put their own engine's in them, can't verify it but the rest was supposed to be the same, deere is supposed to have marketing rights now for the hitachi machines in the USA I've been told. I don't have experience with the deere machines myself other than the older one's they put deere engines in and I own several other machines with that same engine in them, they didn't want to start when it was under 50 degree's out, were not that fuel efficient and had issues with every size they had. IMO, the Isuzu is the way to go, have had a few of them and never had an issue with them, start in extreme cold weather, probably start when it too cold out in fact, maybe they shouldn't start that good when it's 30 below zero, but they do start and run fine, never need either to get them going..............ever. and are a bullet proof engine as far as I'm concerned. Now that said, its up to your dealer or network of dealers, for support, meaning your dealing with Deere and they have the tendency to change their minds on things like corporate relationships, then independent dealers have their own idea's on what to back or not back for parts and support, and those dealers change their minds as well, what they sell new today and promise they'll fix for 20 years with no issues, tomorrow they'll cut a deal with another vender and rather sell that brand and back it instead. I've had parts and dealer issues in my area, along with deere's idea's at corporate level and when Hitachi went away and deere got them, there was a tremendous turmoil in my area on what they were or were not going to back and who was responsible, basically I had an excellent Hitachi dealership near me, and the next day, they were out and deere got hitachi and knew nothing about anything, no parts numbers, no service manuals, no experienced mechanics, nothing and the story changed daily on parts prices and availability. Any machine is only as good as those that support it and back it, now not to knock deere or anyone else, its corporate America with any brand today, take your pick on which one you want to deal with and what set of problems you want to deal with as well, but Hitachi machines are great machines, the network to back them used to be great as well......................
so what is the story with Deere dozers, which ones are Liebherr
and Bell, thought they suppilied Deere with bendy trucks, excavators and shovels over there and some other markets
Deere cut a deal with liebherr for the 950 and 1050 size dozers but I'm told they ended that deal and might be making that size themselves now, maybe someone else can say for sure one way or another on that, I've been given so many stories from deere's people as of lately, I'm not sure even they know to be honest with you. As for the excavators, I've been told they are all basically hitchi machines with deere's engine in them, but as corporate America goes, last weeks news might be outdated by now and something completely different maybe in the lineup now, as they say thing happen fast and the trickle down effect of information takes longer to get to the public than some of the machines that are made. Again some can correct me if I'm wrong or outdated on my information.
Yes Bell does make ADTs for Deere, if you look on the final drive hub of the Deere ADT line up you will see the Bell logo! In return for the ADTs i believe Bell has the rights to market Deere's TLBs and maybe something else in South Africa i believe.
Here is a link that explains a bit of what is going on http://www.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_US...deere_construction_and_forestry_division.page and another http://hitachiconstruction.com/history.html A fellow that I know used to work for Wajax (Hitachi dealer in BC) and he told me that Hitachi outsells Deere 2 to 1 in Canada and Deere outsells Hitachi 4 to 1 in the states. Funny when you know that they are the same machine. Personally I find in my neck of the woods that the product support from Deere is better then Wajax, and I have always found Deere's books to be better. What I hate is when you order a bunch of Hitachi parts and the little baggies come with Deere numbers on them, really sucks when the O rings are really close in size. When they are assembling the machines at the Deere Hitachi specialty plant in Langley BC, they go down the line at the same time, like they say, paint and seat covers, other then that, not much difference.
X2 on parts, seems they change p/n weekly, then you get orange parts for your Deere and yellow for the orange rig. Very well built machines IMHO. Lee
There is a John Deere 1050K dozer in Edmonton right now. They are 100% deere. Sauer danfoss hydraulic/ hydrostatic system. John deere 13.5L engine in it. As for Bell. The new trucks 310E, 410E and 460E are all deere the older ones are Bell and still are being sold but not for much longer. Bell got the better end of the deal, they got almost the whole deere line up to be sold as bells. http://www.bellequipment.com/en/products
Glad to hear they re-engineered the 1050K. I worked on the 1050c's when they 1st came out, what a piece of sh@t! I was just looking at a 1050J and it didn't seem like much changed. Was also trained on the old C series Deere ADT's when they came out, equally terrible. The 1st D series trucks had many issues too but started to come around when Deere got their hands on them. The old B30B's were something else.
to be clear,the 950 and 1050 j machines were liebherrs with deere stickers on them. The new K is an all deere machine, but much of it appears to be carried over from the J. As for the trucks, the D series were always bells(with deere decals), with some having deere engines (250d and 300d). As far as Im concerened,wajax can have them back...I always found them to be annoying to work on. The E series are pretty good though
I hope they redesigned the undercarriage on the Ks I dont know about the Js but all I work on is 950C and 1050C, if they have it could be quite a good machine. I think besides the engine deere also changed the electrical adding the ssm on the trucks. The new e series trucks seem like they are good machines. We have a few over 2000 hours now and they seem to be holding up well. Dont get me started on the B trucks deeretracks!
If I never see another Kusel coupler again it will be too soon!
First part of this sentence is correct, second part is not - a K Crawler Dozer/Loader is 0% carried over from Liebherr, Deere designed and made in the good ol USA. 450-850 have always been Deere designed, made in USA 605/655/755 D Series Loaders used to be Liebherr rebadged, but are Deere designs starting with K Series and made in USA Only the 950/1050 C and J are Liebherr designed
I got to see a Bell shovel for the first time recently, seemed to be a rebadged Deere , look good and well put together
No, and to clarify for those who didn't read the Deere history link.. Mid-Sized Excavators (7.5-38 Metric Tons) are Built in North Carolina at the Kernersville Deere-Hitachi Excavator Plant. Such as 200DLC, 240DLC, 250GLC, 350DLC/GLC etc. Its a joint venture. There are literally are only a few minor differences: the engine, the engine controller, and the seat. The large Excavators (450-850DLC / 470-870GLC ) and the RTS (reduced tailswing) excavators (ie 135DLC, 225DLC) are built in Japan at the Hitachi Factory. I do believe the Mid sized hitachi Excavators are also built there are well, but probably not destined for the NA market. They are shipped over in pieces and we reassemble at the dealership. Mini Excavators are built in Mexico by John Deere. If you go to Wajax, and order a piece of Hitachi machinery; wajax orders the unit through - Deere & Company - North America. Deere sees a cut of the money, and this is why they have no need, or desire to compete in large scale mining machinery. I find the deere engines are cheaper to repair and easier to get parts for. The isuzu engines are nice, but expensive and more labour intensive. When the isuzu goes down, it goes hard. You can pull a Deere engine, and have a Reman in less than 24 hours delivered and installed. Deere have a huge parts network in North America. We don't wait around for Days or weeks like the Cat guys (at least in terms of Finning Canada) Purpose built Forestry swing machines such as Log Loaders and Processors using Excavator Base machines are built in Langley BC at DHSP (Deere Hitachi Specialty Products). Another joint venture. Liebherr built machines are being slowly phased out model by model. Liebherr has resisted, as branding their machines JD increased their market share in NA, but its all but done. Thank-gob. Over engineered Pieces of junk. Bell built machines are mostly phased out. Thank-god. Oh yeah, and Deere owns Waratah, the processor head for the DHSP Forestry Swing Machines.
DeereTech, you forgot to mention when deere started doing this at each location? And how it was done before each location was setup, some of us own and operate much older machines than your thinking about, like the first deere/hitachi excavators many decades old. Post the link to deere's history, oh yea, welcome to the forum
Excavators without a Metric Ton model designation (270DLC is 27 metric tons, whilst 690E LC is not, and the LC is Long Carriage) are generally built in Japan. It's pretty simple, look at the first 2-3 letters on the machine PIN plate. The Serial numbers contain factory codes. FF (Kernersville, North Carolina) Excavators T (Dubuque, Iowa) Dozers AP (Saltillo, Mexico) mini excavators DW (Davenport, Iowa) The Articulated Dump trucks are built here, using some Bell Components (ie axles). BE (Richards Bay, South Africa) Non Davenport ADTs are usually not found in Canada/USA. Its true, there are retired machines sitting on farms here and there. Those are not getting 2500+ hours a year on them.
where does airman come into this http://www.airman.co.jp/en/product/product08.html i thought hitachi's up to 6 ton were just these little blue diggers painted orange and then deere bought orange ones washed off the paint and painted them yellow? or do airman buy yellow diggers that were painted orange and then throw a coat of blue on them?
I've always been told the same thing. That the Deere, and hitachi minis are rebadged airman machines.
Is there a DHSP plant in Regina, Sk or is that just the parts depot?
You might be thinking of Brandt Tractor's operations. They are a Deere dealer, and have custom/specialty machine building operations around that area.
Im reading a lot of love for the Deeres. I think they are making great machines on their own now E series trucks and K series large dozers, but I think they should never change from the Hitachi. does any one else agree?
Deere's NC plant now makes up the the 470 and it now has a Deere engine as well as of this year. Quality from that plant is highly suspect and not the old stand by Hitachi of Japan equipment. They build Hitachi's there too now. I've had a couple low hour Hitachi machines offered to me lately as well...and I know why. Deere has a habit of 'Deereing' everything they touch. The Bell trucks & 950 & 1050 were all non-Deere that Deere mucked with along the way. New trucks & 950/1050 are all Deere only now. 850K's have drive failure issues...but their sales pitch on the 950K to customer with several 850K's with problems? We use FOUR 850K drives in that machine. : 0 I've sold Deere for a short time...lots of electrical issues. They've clearly fired anyone with practical knowledge or experience in their engineering department. Who else puts a vertical air filter in a dozer with the intake on the bottom? 300 hour motors dusted. UAW is killing them as well. Build quality is poor and all over the place. Much of both are just lazy and short sighted like not securing or wrapping up wiring harnesses. BUT when your electrical fails the tractor is just as bad as if the component failed. No manufacture is perfect right now...but Deere is IMHO currently on the bottom of the heap for mainline mfgs. I won't touch or sell anything K. Not worth it. Don't look for it to improve as Deere is well aware and making no changes.
Sorry to hijack, but I am always keeping my ear to the ground with industrial engines especially as my field is currently transitioning to Tier 4. Deere seems to want a piece of the loose engine market with the 3029, 4045, and 6068 which is all I really care about...same good engines as always or are they falling off the cliff also?
Deere motors have a lot of EPA overhead. They were evidently dirty, they've got every damn emission reduction method under the sun on there. I did Deere's T4 training...it was informative & funny. 60% engineering, 40% BS spin to explain why they're using 15 different technologies to get to T4 final. : ) But with all this **** on there, fuel economy on T4 sucks. IRL a 544 from T3 - T4i- T4 final almost doubled fuel consumption. Deere fuel systems are some of the most fragile in the industry right now. Water and debris F up all fuel systems these days, but Deere seems to be highly susceptible and like everyone else their pumps & injectors are asinine priced. The EPA is kicking the **** out of diesel. No one has gone unscathed. And for the most part I don't know who is my favorite. Fiat actually has a very good, fuel efficient engine line up. Cummins also was way ahead of the curve on emissions as well. Due to their now defunct partnership, a lot of the tech is shared. But I'm sticking by my 'never Deere' stance until proven otherwise.
Any updates now that the Deere-Hitachi partnership has been dissolved. I know the thread has been dead 6 years now, but thought there may be some opinions after the break-up. Professor has loved the project progression so far also! -SP29
Isuzu yes very good engines. They can last for a long time with no oil changes and operators knocking dirt out of the air filters with the engine running. Ask me how I know. It was the most worn engine I had ever worked on, every moving part well broke in.
I think it is interesting. I am seeing a lot more Hitachi dealerships spring up since the two split. I believe overall that Hitachi will maintain a lot more customers than Deere now that buyers are actually buying a Deere excavator from the ground up. If they liked their Deere Ex built maybe/designed by Hitachi, only makes sense to keep buying them in Orange. As more Hitachi dealerships spring up, it will make it even harder for Deere to keep their customers. It is no secret that Deere engines are thirsty and the Isuzu for certain are not, that alone would likely be a deciding factor for many. CASE is giving up the Isuzu for their Fiat engine in the E series, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Linkbelt is keeping the Isuzu in the X4S series. If you make your own engines it makes a lot of sense to use inhouse instead of buying an engine, but when you can have an engine as good as Isuzu, perhaps buying them might result in more customers in the end.
I really wonder what either company was thinking. As far as I'm concerned, Deere had it made with Hitachi's technology and Hitachi had it made with Deere's parts distribution. In the mid to late 90's when Totem Equipment was still in business in Seattle and Portland they were the top Hitachi excavator dealer in sales for North America, now a year or so after the split there still doesn't appear to be a Hitachi dealer in Washington yet. A number of guys from the area asked the Hitachi people at ConExpo this spring and were told that nothing had been decided yet. Setting up a whole new dealer network in these times seems foolish to me, unless they plan to steal techs from Pape and other brands who are all having difficulty finding good help already.
I knew a guy who had Hitachi's but was forced to buy Deere 892's because the agreement didn't allow Hitachi to sell the 300 series in Canada/N. America. I had heard the Deere engines were mounted higher so the hyd. pumps had to work a little harder and the Deere engines were thirstier, not as reliable and didn't last as long before needing an overhaul. They were better than 6V53's he had in his earlier P&H's. He swore by the Isuzu engines. He sold a UH122 to his former partner. It had over 9000hrs. but still ran like new and had never been touched other than routine maintenance. The one thing he did do is add water separator's to the fuel system. That seemed to prevent IP problems and gave piece of mind.
The Deere/Hitachi agreement did work well for both of them. Probably one of the most successful joint ventures that I can think of. Since Hitachi brains developed the machines, it will be up to Deere to atleast match the machine they used to offer their customers. That is asking a lot for a company that has never designed and built their own excavators. They are using WN to help with the mini's, so that says something about how they felt about design and building even a mini all on their own.
JD designed and built their own excavators long before Hitachi came into the picture. I think the 690E was the last JD designed and built excavator.
John Deere and Hitachi began a supply relationship in the early 1960s; then in 1988 the companies started the Deere-Hitachi manufacturing joint venture to produce excavators in Kernersville, NC. In 1998, Deere-Hitachi expanded the relationship to include the production of forestry swing machines at Deere-Hitachi Specialty Products in Langley, BC. In 2001, John Deere and Hitachi combined their marketing and distribution efforts in the Americas. In 2011, excavator manufacturing was expanded with the addition of the Deere-Hitachi Brazil factory in Indaiatuba, Brazil. I don't think the 690E was built by Deere all by themselves. The above was put out by Deere. Other information states that Hitachi collaberatated with Deere since the 60's. Hitachi has been a part of Deeres hydraulic excavators from the very beginning of Hydraulic excavators. Clearly since 1988 when the official build agreement went into place.
Earlier 690's and the 890 were designed and built by Deere. A guy that did some work for me had a 690E and it didn't cross to a Hitachi model. According to him it was the better machine between a Deere and Hitachi. Interestingly Deere/Hitachi machines could be bought at the same time. There was likely some, or a lot, of influence from Japanese excavator designs but not necessarily directly from Hitachi. The Hitachi designed Deere excavators started with the 790 series.
As far as I know the 690E had a Hitachi built cab but did not use the Hitachi hydraulics.
This is what John Deere put out 2/28/22 with regard to the Americas and Hitachi etc. John Deere Acquires Deere-Hitachi Factories, Begins New Agreements John Deere has acquired full ownership of Deere-Hitachi joint venture factories and has begun new agreements with Hitachi Construction Machinery. www.deere.com
When I used to work up north, JD and Hitachi excavators outnumbered Cat and Komatsu an easy 3 to 1. I think that speaks volumes about the product and dealer support.
Hate to say but explains seeing some Fiat Allis based ideas in Deere mid 90s and early2000s machines, from those FA Hitachi days.
Well the local Volvo, Kobelco, Tak dealer picked up Hitachi excavators as well. Halfway expected the local Deere dealer to sell side by side as they had in the past. Used to see orange and yellow excavators on the same lot. Maybe there is something about co-dealing the split?
In my area the non major brands (as in not Cat, Deere, Volvo or Komatsu) end up being serviced by much smaller dealers who may only have a couple locations in the state but they represent a lot of brands. I have a good friend who went to work for one of these second string dealers and he really likes working for them but says getting service info and parts can be a real issue…the dealer may rep these brands but the feeling doesn’t seem mutual when the dealer needs support.
Of course Deere are going to act like they are the ones with all the latest inovations. 1 in 4 excavators sold were Hitachi back in UH series days. I don't think Deere excavators would have sold nearly as well without the Hitachi joint venture. I mentioned previous if you wanted a 300 size Hitachi you had to buy an 892 Deere. I think they were pretty popular but I think a lot of the buyers would have bought Hitachi if they had a choice. The guy I knew surely preferred Hitachi after running them for quite a few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more Hitachi's now they are on their own.
Th That's quite possible as the 690E was made during the joint venture and JD Hitachi's were sold at the same time.