Has anyone tried to install a DEF Delight on their equipment. I have a 2013 Case 621F Wheel Loader. Their is a DEF issue the dealer can't seem to find the fix for. Maybe it would be faster and cheaper just to git it delighted. What do you think??
There are guys out there claiming to have delete kits and programs. Not a wise investment. If, IF, the EPA catches up with you, you're looking at ridiculous fines, to start. Not worth it.
If you do a delete... make sure the entire package is covered. I know of a Cummins ISX with a DEF/ EGR delete that has burned down twice. I wont touch it and obviously Cummins will not touch it. It's a 2012 engine and the emissions controls are so messed up nobody can really figure out what is going on.
Agree with others, delete kit sounds inviting, but if you you're in a spot that you need OEM help, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, they won't touch it 'cause EPA controls them. And as was mentioned previously, the EPA fines are substantial, very substantial.
OEMs and certified shops cannot have 'tampered with emissions controlled vehicles or equip' on their property except to repair-back-to-certified-emissions controls. Fines article https://www.overdriveonline.com/eng...cement-put-the-brakes-on-illegal-engine-mods/
For an engine OEM, the fine is $33K/day/per engine for out of spec engines. So the engine guys have a little incentive to not get involved in an engine that has been altered. The fines are similar for the equipment OEM for having out of spec. engines. Simple reality is.....equipment/trucks with emissions controlled engines are going to have a relatively short life. Once the 5 year emissions warranty expires.....the cost of keeping the engine alive is going to be more than an owner wants to bear.
What is the issue with your emissions problem? Maybe I can help.
We run the machine 9 miles to get to the location where we use it to plow snow. Before the unit gets to town the yellow light comes on warning about a DEF issue. Sometimes when you restart the unit, the light goes out and things run like normal until the next time. First time the code was 3350. Termin50 sig. Wrong operation. Next time the yellow light came on it was code 3612. Engine SCR CTRL out of limits. Our Case dealer hooked it up to the computer and thought the DEF might be bad. I drained the tank and refilled with new fluid. No change. It seems like the high RPM driving down the road might be triggering the issue, not sure. They came back a second time, hoked it up and ran it down the road. The Knock sensor was kicking out the code at high RPM so we replaced it. $700 plus now 2 service calls later, same issue. I notices a little oily film on top of the DEF fluid so I removed the cap, cleaned the cap breather and filler filter, sucked the oily substance off the top and checked the in-line and canister DEF filters even thought they were both changed when we got the machine and all looked good. Took it for a ride last night, got 9 miles out with no problem. Turned around with a big smile thinking maybe just maybe when the yellow and Red light came on shutting me down to 900 RPM. Tried restarting the machine several times to see if something would reset but nothing. Limped it home and put it back in the shop. Same issue this morning. I am not looking to avoid any government regulations but the $75,000 paper weight isn't what I was looking to buy.
That's my take on it as well . Wont matter if your a small operator with one piece of equipment causing trouble or a big fleet owner with 100 of them . The trouble will have the same effect on both . When it comes down to spending $ money to make it blow smoke again & produce …… They will take the path of least resistance to put it back in action . Whatever that path may be ?
Don't say "blow smoke" that'll get you in trouble right there.
You are correct RZ ! How about " Great Again " .
First thing I want to tell you about the SCR DEF system is when you have excessive idling or running it hard will cause you to consume more DEF. The first code I’m not sure what it means. But the second code 3612 Catalyst efficiency lower than second Nox prediction threshold level. You have two nox sensors on the SCR. The first one in line is reading how much nox gases are coming out of the engine exhaust. It then passes through the SCR which basically scrubs the nox gases out of the exhaust. The DEF fluid comes into play creating a reaction to help in the removal of the nox gas. So the second sensor is predicting what it expects to see after the exhaust is passed through the SCR. And in your case it doesn’t like what it sees. You could have a bad DEF doser or your SCR is burned up. Or you could simply have a bad nox sensor. The DEF doser isn’t really bad it’s just not spraying well. It’s kind of like a fuel injector. A fix for that is to remove it and soak it in hot water. I also want to add that DEF fluid purity is critical. It will benefit you to get a tester for the DEF purity. Depending on temperature DEF degrades over time. The hotter it is the faster it degrades. Sorry for the long explanation but I like to inform while giving advice. I hope this will steer you in the right direction. It’s frustrating to see people working on this stuff and not know how to fix it at the customers expense.
A local Pepsi distributor has gone to a legal delight. All their medium duty trucks have been switched to gassers.
I just wonder why all this wasn't covered under warranty? When the regulations came out on cars the new controls had to have a 100,000 mile warranty by law. So now we have all this new technology on diesels and the end user gets to foot the bill for the learning curve?
This is wonderful for bankers! As soon as the machine is paid for, you have to get another loan and you will forever be paying interest on money they issue out of thin air.
We have a machine with a cat c4.4 nothing but problems. It randomly turns off and derates. But something strange has happened. It has stopped using def. Not even a gallon in the past 400 troublesome hours. It is a 2017 and the advice from the dealer we purchased it from was keep running it.... the code comes up j1939 communication error. I wonder what the epa would have to say about the dealer saying run it?
Just wanted to add to your excellent description, Paul, that de-mineralised water is far better than hot tap water. Drop the DEF injector into a container of de-min and it'll do the job.
I've seen that on a few pieces. Dealer should be able to test the CAN communication status in ET. If nothing is communicating with the PETU you've likely got a harness issue or an issue with one of the DEF components. We've had to change a few DEF pumps on fairly new units because they've failed.
We put some sort of bypass on our 2012 or 13 Kobelco SK210 right from the very start it had constant problems and we'd have to have the dealer come out and try to figure it out. After the warranty expired the boss phoned a guy and had this thing installed and 2 years later we still haven't put a drop of that horse **** in the tank. I'm still of the opinion that everybody that's anybody that runs diesel powered equipment needs to band together and let these 'greenies' that tier 4 or whatever you want to call it doesn't work and we're throwing our money away trying to make it work!
That’s good info. I didn’t know that. Hot water was how I was trained from cummins. Which I believe all SCR systems are modeled after.
Demineralized water is ideal for cleaning DEF components. But lacking demineralized water, hot, clean tap water is the only other choice. Never use anything other than hot water to clean DEF components. You should even clean your tools of any traces of dirt or petroleum products before using them on DEF components. You can contaminate the system with dirty tools. IME, the engines that met the T4i requirements seem to be a bit more delicate with emissions issues. The T4F engines seem quite a bit less fussy. A number of T4i engines had several software patches rolled out during production to fix assorted odd issues. It amazes me how many engine people either don’t know about or don’t try a software update. If your engine is a T4i and has odd issues not explained by hardware, ask about software updates for that specific engine. With any engine with a catalyst, don’t rule out engine health causing catalyst issues. Leaky turbo seals, rings, valve guide seal leaks, even a dirty crankcase breather put oil in the system and overwhelm the catalyst.
WOW, lots of great advice. Thanks. Just an update! The Case dealer service truck spent most of the day friday testing and driving my unit. At Case advice he ended up flashing the computer on the engine and the DEF pump and installed the latest version software. He took it down the road twice with no issues. He said the knox sensors were still high but he assumed the new program allowed for higher reading before kicking out a code. Time will tell. I pray it works but I will be settling down with a beer in my hand when the bill comes I will follow up with everyone on this trend after we use it for plowing if it ever snows again. This winter sucks here in WI. THANKS AGAIN!!
Gene, Did you ever get to the bottom of this? What was the bill like from the dealer? We have a 2011 Case Puma tractor that just started throwing the 3612 code and SCR failure> Checking around to see what people have done. Our warranty was up last year, lucky us
feel sorry for the big horsepower tractors/trucks and equipment o/o thanks CA retired truck driver all I have is gas powered and they screwed that up!( gasohol) one new M-f diesel under 25hp exempt with epa rules you will be moving timber&dirt with elephants after that invest in tonka toys!
245dlc I'd love to know what you did or who to call! I have a 2012 Kobelco sk210 and I've spent over 4k since new on the DEF system. Every winter I get the DEf injection failure code and the dealer keeps cleaning it and putting new sensors in it. Any help??? Thanks!!!
Welcome to the club Denaliidigger. I had the joy of spending $4k yesterday for my 2015 Iveco truck. Probably spent around $6k total in the last 12 months not counting my time and fuel back and forwards to the dealer. I don't know about Kobleco but Iveco has electronic delete controllers for sale out of Europe .I'm just scared of plugging something into the truck that has the potential to totally screw the whole thing up.
@Gene Allar can you track down a schematic and figure out what "Terminal 50" controls? That code 3350 is defined as "Terminal 50- Always on" according to a chart I found on CNH code chart I found. Link below. Maybe you have a rubbed wire or loose connection creating the issue. https://www.altaimpl.com/siteart/pdf/T8000 Engine Faults.pdf My experience is with on-road applications, mostly Mack and Cummins, so Equipment is slightly foreign to me. When I worked at a Mack dealer, most of the time wiring was the cause of after treatment issues. Certainly component failures and driver ineducation added to the list, but many times a shorted circuit, sensor, or open wire would be the culprit. I have seen wires broken inside an intact coating creating major headaches.
Yes def delete is a delight.
The best thing to do is delete it. All the stuff people say about getting in trouble for doing it is ON ROAD applications. Other than California, I have never heard of anybody getting into any issues with OFF-road stuff.
Does anyone have a good lead on where to get help with the delete. working on a 2011 Case puma tractor with the 6.7 engine. Tractor has complete SCR failure right now and wont stay running long enough to pull it out of the tractor shed and get any work done. Thanks yall.
What's the serial number on your 621
3350 Terminal 50 is the cranking signal from the ignition system at the engine controller. This signal commands the engine controller to activate the starter. The fault indicates there is voltage at pin 32 (connector EDC7) or pin 63 (connector ECU) of the engine controller connector after the engine has started and is running. Check for voltage always being at this pin even after the engine is started. This fault code becomes active if the status signal is continuously active over 25 seconds. Note: Depending on the age of the machine, there are different troubleshooting steps needed to resolve this fault. To make it easier to diagnose, the following troubleshooting contains the steps for all E/WB and F/WC-series wheel loaders. The most likely causes of this issue is are: Faulty starter relay (K2 or K3 in ECB) Faulty ignition switch Faulty harness connection Faulty harness Troubleshooting steps: Suggested first step is to test/replace the start relay. Verify the wiring between the engine controller and starter relay do not have any stray voltage or shorts to power or other wiring in the harness. Look for corrosion, bent pins, broken wires or other types of damage. Check for shorts to ground and power in harness. E-series (WB) machines: Pin 17 of EDC7 connector to pin 85 of ECB (position A9, fuse 9) Pin 32 of EDC7 connector to pin 89 of ECB (position D6, relay K3) Pin 37 of EDC7 connector to pin 86 of ECB (position AA10, fuse 10) F-series (WC) Tier 4 interim machines with ECD7: Pin 17 of EDC7 connector to pin 85 of ECD (position AA6, fuse 6) Pin 32 of EDC7 connector to pin 87A of ECC (position C10, relay K5) Pin 30 of ECC (position B9, relay K5) to pin 87 of ECB (position D6, relay K3) Pin 37 of EDC7 connector to pin 86 of ECD (position A5, fuse 5) F-series (WC) Tier 4 final machines with EDC17: Pin 19 of ECU connector to pin 31 of ECF Pin 63 of ECU connector to pin 87 of ECB (position C4, relay K2) Pin 88 of ECU connector to pin 36 of ECF The voltage should be no more than 25 volts at EDC7 pin 32 or ECU pin 63. Check the ignition switch for shorts or bad connections. Test/replace the ignition switch if necessary.
Engine fault 3612 (which displays as Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 31E when viewed with the EASY tool) indicates that the catalyst efficiency is below the level two threshold limits. Engine fault 3611 (which displays as Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 21E when viewed with the EASY tool) indicates that the catalyst efficiency is below the level one threshold limits. The 3611 fault code or 21E DTC fault occurs first, prior to the 3612 fault code, or 31E DTC. Catalyst efficiency issues can develop, if the current load is lighter than a previous load and exhaust temperatures are not hot enough (232 C [450 F] minimum). As the catalyst cools down, the efficiency drops, as heat is a primary factor in NOx conversion. Therefore, a decrease in performance can indicate an efficiency fault. Remove the dosing module (injector) and inspect it for large amounts of scale build up. You will observe some scale on the injector tip, which is normal. Inspect the mixing turbulators in the exhaust tube below the dosing module. Verify this area is not built up with scale. Check the DEF concentration with a refractometer. The perfect mix of urea and water is 32.5% urea to 67.5% water. Place the unit on the dynamometer and apply sufficient load to achieve 232 C (450 F) degrees exhaust temperature. Watch the NOx sensor output in the "derate status" screen. You should observe NOx ppm drop from the static 500 ppm to 200 ppm, or lower. You can compare to the estimated NOx output from the engine, which is also found in the lower portion of the derate status screen. NOx sensor in range failures can also cause these faults. Swapping with a known good sensor, or replacement, can verify whether the sensor is operating within range. You can also place the NOx sensor in the dosing module hole and verify the NOx sensor observation is within reason of the estimated NOx output of the engine from the derate status screen. Remove the exhaust pipe and inspect the catalyst substrate for damage / cracking. The substrate should be a uniform honey comb structure. If cracking is present, replace the catalyst. If the unit is equipped with 2010 or 2011 Model Year (MY) software you can update the software to MY2012 version. Later software may help with erroneous 3611/3612 fault codes due to some improvements with the detection. If you update the ECU software, the ICU software also needs to be updated to be compatible with the ECU. These updates change how the operators observe and detect failures within the after treatment system Once the change has been made, it cannot be reversed. NOTE: If the software of the ECU and ICU software is changed from MY2011 version to the MY2012 version, the operators manual also requires replacement. The MY2012 software versions display different messages and functions differently than do the MY2011 software versions. Therefore, the correct operators manual must be provided to the operator. Search the Document Management Center (DMC) for the current operators manual part number for the machine model that is updated.
It bothers me when a manufacture gets the blame for a possibly poorly trained tech. The tech should have went through the above. If your def injector wasn't checked a software change may not work. As we get older we realize following all the instructions lead to a more pleasurable outcome for everyone
Who should we blame for this mess? The tech? They can invent all this butcant put on board trouble shooting, got to have a team of nasa techs to probe dozens of pins and still cant fix it while the customer takes it up the ass? But it bothers you someone blames the mfg vs some worker bees? Seems it might be able to be done wit another fee? OnStar type thing.
If tech didnt pull def injector given the code hes an idiot. Maybe just lazy but no actually diagnostics was put into this fix by the rech. Nasa techs that's funny. These machines are simple 2 or 3 can buses is the equivalent of a nassa calculator with a dead battery in terms of diagnostics. Most manufacturers have the ability to view codes remotely if you pay for the service. Then the tech can view codes before they go out there. On board diagnostics there is. Its telling you the def injector has problems. It cant diagnose itself when it can have multiple causes. If it could you think they are complicated now? Sure manufacturer isn't training techs well enough. Reflash ecu maybe it will go away is a long shot.Who do we blame. I guess we blame our capitalism selves for wanting more more more more
There should be a thread about important information to get a copy of when you have a tech plug your machine into a diagnostic program. Codes past and present. Controller software versions Diagnostic tests performed Confirmation codes were cleared This will allow the next tech to have a better idea of what's going on. Past codes can be just as important as present codes sometimes more important.
We didn't want this stuff, it was forced down the manufacturer's throats by the EPA, courtesy of the Clean Air Act. I was peripherally involved with the diesel engine design and engineering business some time ago. 30+ years ago the reliability engineers were God. As an engine engineer, if the reliability engineers didn't like and approve your design it wasn't getting built. Period. It just didn't matter how good of an idea it was. A 10,000 hour durability test requires 14 months, after everything is made. Then along came the EPA emissions requirements, with never enough lead time. All of a sudden the reliability engineers were shoved to the corner, and the emissions engineers were God. 'Cause if the engine didn't meet emissions, there was nothing to sell. So lots of stuff got pushed out the door with little concern about reliability. Lots of sensors, wiring, software, actuators, etc. didn't behave the way or live as long as the supplier claimed. So used equipment without all the electronics has seen an increase in value. Some emissions equipment trades at lower values because no one can keep it running. And truckers all want new glider kit trucks with B model Cats. There are always unintended consequences.
I'm wondering about the evidence of used equipment values on older non electronic machines rising. It might have been three to five years ago but I sure can't quantify that today. Do you have some reference that I can review to research the topic. I deal with nearly all the equipment dealers in my area and all say the trend is that used equipment that is available is too old and worn out to make any money with. The feeling is that the only machines available in the less than 5,000 hours range will be rental fleet roll outs. The other issue is that the government agencies are mandating the minimal use of anything older than Tier 3. The feeling is that two to four years down the road any non compliant machines will only be allowed for hobby use.
The cost of used non electric machines is going up. We have sold alot of older machines for pretty high prices for very used poor quality machines. Then you have to put another 20k into it to make it reliable. So that nice old emission free loader you paid 35k for as is now has another 25k into it 60k total and it's still far from a new machine
This is a very niche example, but it does illustrate the point: ten or fifteen years ago, small haul trucks for underground mines would sell for just a few thousand dollars. Now, you can't touch those same trucks in running condition for less than $20k on a good day, or often $40k with how some dealers price their wares. Bear in mind that these are simple machines that have seen hard service. I blame emissions, the price of gold, and the tendency of manufacturers to "gold-plate" their new machines. In underground mining, no piece of equipment is too old to make money with, or so the mine operators seem to believe. The cost gap between well-maintained used iron from the 80s and a new machine is often an order of magnitude or more, so the same old equipment is continuously rebuilt and resold. Hell, some mine operators will actively seek out designs that haven't been built in 25 years.
Non electronic values keep going up
The machine here has an electric problem the ignition code points to harness issues. If these two codes set at the same time you can delete this or that but will still have a problem until the original issue is diagnosed properly and fixed What's interesting some and probably all manufactures are not selling replacement engines that are not tier 4. This too will increase the value of older equipment. I wonder if manufactures that refurbish equipment are replacing engines with tier 4? We are moving to a time were parts will also become unavailable for non electronic engines.
The thing keeping the lid on this all is EPA threats of fines and such. If freedom was allowed to prevail, and America was to return, T4 rules would be noticed to be too ridiculously restrictive, and the reliability guys would return to their seat at the table on the engine OEMs. At the same time, aftermarket people would start making and selling new ECMs that would allow current T4 engines to run like diesel engines used to run, air in, inject fuel, exhaust out. Not just Eastern European hackers but US based people with warranties and such. And the associated removal of useless components. Caterpillar already has a name for this, and I am sure the others do too, LRC, Less Restrictive Countries. It can be done, the system we are all working under at the moment is simply artificial, generated by some bureaucrats' keyboards, and other keystrokes are all it would take to undo it....
I have said this somewhere in a another thread. I would like to see a carbon footprint analysis done with a teir4 machine. They burn more fuel to artificially keep exhaust temps up,and we are filling landfills with 2.5 gallon jugs of d.e.f. All for cleaner smoke. How is this any better?
I have to assume we are not the only country. Sure mexico doesnt care about emissions but it's not just the epa driving emission standards. The car companies are driven not just by epa but by other countries. Even if epa cut all the regulations would companies make specific models for the usa. Possible but not for long. One of the reasons mexico gets electronic free engines is there fuel has to much sulfur to even run in a tier 4.
I take it you are a salesman then? Can you provide an example, maybe a model and year of manufacture and I'll run a survey. Same with this. Could you provide a model and year of manufacture. Twenty thousand dollars is about the floor for most any ten year old machine that runs and has ten thousand or more hours on the clock. So far I haven't been able to actually put together proof that can't be explained by inflation.
I'm not a salesman I see used machines sold where I work as a tech. We just sold a 544 jd 35k machine was a wreck. Center joint shot. To get it reliable and fixed 20k. Skid steer non running with a tier4 engine sold for 20k. I have no idea on used prices everything seems high because your looking at 10k to fix basic issues. Our shop stays busy fixing great auction deals people get. 10k junk loader with 15k into it to make it move and stop. Theres alot more to fix on that one. I cant see constructiin guys buying used up machines to run there business with. The down time outways the savings
I've seen that kind of thing here but those buyers are the hobby people or those that think they can do their own thing on their own land and then sell the machine for more than they paid for it. What that comes down to is uniformed buyers chasing a dream. What I'm looking for is some kind of proof that mechanical engine machines are bringing more money now adjusted for inflation than they did five, ten or more years ago.
Something I noticed and could possibly be driving up prices. Companies here are buying up pre emission machines and trading them in under the t.e.r.p. program. Basically cash for clunkers but for equipment. And I also seen dealers here are buying up all the pre emission machines that they can get their hands on out of California and selling them at a premium. That's what I have noticed in my tiny corner of the world.
That's something I might be able to use. What state are you in and can you provide a dealer name?
I live in Texas. Holt cat, R.D.O. equipment (John deere), Romco equipment (Volvo/ Hitachi) Kirby Smith(kamatsu). Those are the big players.
Mechanicale machines adjusted to inflation have a consistent base value last may I bought a 314c cat ex out of southern California for 31k it had 5k on the clock it looks worn but is mechanically sound that was a deal especially since the same machine new right now is over 220k I am looking at a new backhoe right now 3 month wait to build my order i just bought a mini out of the rental fleet 2 month wait to order skid steers are over 45 days to get order excavators are at least 2 months from local deere dealer the cat dealer has the opinion that they stock what i want and wont talk about ordering what i want you cant find a skip loader in any condition of any series for less than 25k right now Point is work here is on fire people are running anything they can get there hands on used equipment at auction is bring a premium because new equipment is months away and the jobs to lose money on are going on today so it becomes a mute point to worry about a premium price Now that may not be sound buissness but that's the industry attitude here and i see more new iron all the time So emissions is not the driver today it was 4 years ago no doubt and with age of equipment emissions are never going to be the driver again everyone is getting used to it case has eliminated egr on most new equipment i know deere is trying to and i think has 2 test backhoes without egr so as things progress it wont go away but it might be simplified to create reliability
Sounds like time to start rebuilds again .
That is the point I was looking for. Basically, right now the real issue is availability of new iron. The other observation I have is that as the prices of new iron increases, so to does the price for used iron. Any price change in new will nearly always affect the price for used. From my perch, I'm seeing that all the industries have generally accepted that electronics and pollution controls are the new normal. I'll do some research on Pauls list of dealers and see if the hypothesis of mechanical's prices are being inflated in the markets as a preference over electronics.
Paul the carbon foot print side interests me a bit so I started looking into it. The new emmisions standards are for pm and nox. No mention of carbon. So from a carbon footprint standard it's clear new machines have a bigger one hands down. Plastic def jugs, production of def, more parts being made. The overall footprint on these new machines has to be greater. Carbon levels dont seem to be a concern. It's just nox and pm. Desiel engines have always had a smaller footprint compared to gas on the carbon side. I couldn't find any info other then renting machines lowers the carbon footprint. I quess I need to search more or they dont want to admit deisel engines now have a bigger footprint then before but we are breathing cleaner warmer air
Midnightmoon, I see your point and I agree. But if we are forced to " do good with our environment " and by machines with emissions standards. Then we shouldn't split hairs with which is worse. I am not saying you are splitting hairs, but our environmental do gooders certainly seem to be. Somewhere there's a happy medium and government sure as hell isn't qualified to get us there. I could go on forever on this subject and more. It just seems like we regress more than we progress.
My guess is the preference for mechanical is driven by a smaller group of the independent owner operator, repair ourselves type of guys. Im certainly one of those dinosaurs . Im demobing from a 3 month job and was working alongside a new RT wondering whats really wrong with an older conventional crane if its maintained well . If my stuff worked a bit steadier id employ a couple of guys full time in my shop , putting more people to work utilizing resources you have instead of laying out huge capital for things that you cant maintain yourself. In terms of carbon foot print , whats the cost of cutting up the old stuff, transporting it ,melting it reproducing it and adding a ton of plastic to it. Compared to just maintaining it . Ill bet theres not a truck or a machine made now an operator could start his career on and retire on the same machine. It would be interesting to study the value of resources consumed on that basis compared to work done over time.
I try to stay out of the p word it's all corrupt and for the good of someone bottom line. I was just regurgitating what I read. What's interesting is carbon footprint has nothing to do with tier 4 emissions standards. I think we are off topic. Maybe start a new forum category on tier 4 specific engines. On one side I enjoy being able to use a computer to monitor the engine. If you look at the right parameters you can see a bad injector before it causes problems. I grew up with computers as computers grew. From dos to now. I like the ability to use computers for diagnostics but its completely taken and diagnostic ability away from the owner which is bad. New laws are opening up the ability for the owner to purchase diagnostic equipment but its limited and expensive. Who will pay thousands of dollars and annual fees for a few pieces of equipment. The playing field should be level to some extent and it will like cars with obd2. It's a double edged sword when the customer starts doing electrical diagnostics it will make my job harder when they bring in there machine with harnesses pulled apart and wiring bypassed in an effort to bypass sensors with resistors that dont work on smart sensors
Young's Machine 960-series trucks in particular. Model year isn't really meaningful as year-to-year changes have been minimal since the 70s, when YMC adopted the side-facing operator's seat. Hours, condition, and build sheet (transmission, engine, exhaust, ROPS, etc.) are the main distinguishing factors for any given machine. They're a sufficiently niche truck that I'm not sure how much sales data there is outside of Savona Equipment and a handful of other mining equipment dealers. I do know that we were quoted about $170k for a new-build 960 in late 2019 or 2020.
PM or particulate matter is carbon. I can see a niche machine being a possibility of something it may be worth rebuilding and there being a market for that. We see it here with log yarders. I'll do a search and try to find some more information. I'm thinking the issue isn't the engines, it's that fact that it is a small industry, the units are rare and extremely expensive to purchase a new machine.
Depending on the shop or tech that looks at it wouldn't be any better off. I am blessed to have a mind that understands this stuff and in my eyes it isn't that difficult to learn. I think most people eyes glaze over and brains go to sleep when looking at all those wires. And I believe some think it's magic and some kind of voodoo that makes it work. I like to keep it simple and use logic. Rarely have I seen a wire just brake in the middle of a harness with nothing acting upon it. I focus at the circuit at hand and focus on connections and where the harness will likely rub through. Most can be determined with your meter. If you know what those numbers on your meter are telling you.
All the Tier 4 stuff does is reduce DPM and gas emissions, often at the cost of fuel economy and MTBF. I'd argue that those systems actually increase carbon footprint! We actually do have to worry about DPM and gas emissions of engines underground, and MSHA publishes minimum ventilation rate requirements for engines (which don't really line up with reality for 100% duty cycle in the face of the new DPM standards). You can run expensive, clean equipment and save on ventilation, or run cheap, dirty equipment and pay for it in ventilation requirements- either way, you pay! Personally I prefer a middle-of-the-road approach - cheap indirect-injection Deutz engines with exhaust aftertreatment, and modest ventilation requirements. I'd love to see an open OBD2-type standard implemented. At this time, my off-road equipment is all analog but this won't always be the case as used modern equipment comes down in price.
I remember it being said, when T4 was barely thought of, that yarders were going to be the worst application because all they do is sit and idle, until they go full throttle for a minute or less, and then idle again for a long time. I'm curious to know how that has worked out, if there are enough T4 yarders to make a sample size.
I think I've only heard of one new yarder in the last five years. Haulback would be the guy most likely to know that. They do go full throttle for a lot more than a minute at a time though, but they also do a lot of idle. They are more like heavy lift cranes than anything else.
There is nothing in the clean air act about carbon footprint, thats a modern construct. But its coming. The biggest problem with the clean air act is economic analysis of pollution controls is specifically prohibited. To follow the letter of the law, at some point it will cost the entire GDP of the United States to remove the next increment of pollution.
I don't know about the total cost of the act becoming more than the US GDP, but I do know that it is inflationary on the face of it. The engineering adds cost, extra components add cost and the lesser reliability adds cost. Therefore, each added Tier rating adds cost. The only way to recoup those costs are to reduce maintenance and repairs or increase productivity. Both the reliability for the most part, and longevity have increased. The question to be answered is, was it enough. I'm sure the manufacturers have noted all the problems and are working to make things better. That takes time which was reduced because the changes were legislated instead of going through the natural progression of innovation. Don't forget though that the manufacturers were part of the process of passing and implementing these laws and regulations. The free market will choose the manufacturers who succeed with a better product. That doesn't help the little guy with the skid trying to make a living who has to fight a system he doesn't understand how it works and the manufacturers are not providing any solution other than call my service personnel to come a take care of it.
what I didnt know until recently is there are two different ways to reduce emissions 1 run the engine cool low nox high pm and catch pm in a dpf system. This is hard on the engine look at kubota's engine failures do to turbos failing. My experience is 500hr oil change isnt good and causing the turbo bushing to fail. alot of kubota engines Ive seen fail are at the 500hr mark. thats my guess 2 run the engine hot low pm high nox and axe the dpf and catch the nox case uses this system less engine failures I know this is over simplified and manufactures dont fall neatly into each system. Whats everyones experience in these two major differences in engine types Ive been looking into can-bus sniffers and came across one that has a database of j1939 spn's I wonder how effective this technolgy is over multiple manufactureres? Im thinking of pulling the trigger on this one. https://www.csselectronics.com/scre...,CAN hardware to try and control your vehicle .
I guy that I work with has something similar to that one. The problem with off road versus obd2 is obd2 has the same protocol across the board. The make and model doesn't matter. With off road diagnostic its the wild west and it can change from model to model and brand. For example, with a j1939 protocol in car manufacturers. Let's say that pin 39 is the coolant temp sensor. That will be true for all makes and models. That's how the can sniffer with the software to identify components works. It doesn't work with off road so well. That same pin 39 could be anything on any make and model. There isn't any regulation of how these manufacturers do things and there isn't any global agreement to make it so as of yet. I hope that I am making sense. It's kinda hard to explain. The sniffer will work, but you may have to do the leg work. I have done some research in this with the hopes of building a device that can keep these machines viable after there isn't any dealer support anymore. There will come a day when that D8T sitting in a field can't be used because you can no longer buy a nox sensor for it. Nothing wrong with the machine but the computer won't let it run.
That's kind of what I was saying in post #44 above. I've already seen it in the equipment I work on from the 80s. The manufacturer no longer has the part available but the aftermarket makes it better, cheaper, simpler and eliminates extraneous junk. The opportunities will be endless for a good electronics shop but the government and/or OEMs will want to step in and squash things if they see too much junk being fixed.
I guess I need to start working on emulators to fool ECU's into thinking that nox sensor is still working so when parts are no longe available we can keep the old iron working.
I think that by the time I learn to do all this. Someone smarter than me and has better resources. Would come up with the solution years ahead of me. I don't know what kind of mind it takes to dream this software crap up. It certainly makes my brain smoke. Programming isn't my gig. To many variables to deal with and to much math involved. I would have to go back to school to learn how to do something like that. I could probably enlist my kids and they could do it for me.
Training the kids now with basic programming for building robots. An emulator is just a micro computer set to send info to the ecm. I'm trying to make one to help with getting a machine in limp mode out of the swamp its stuck in so I dont have to work on it mud up to my knees. Not sure I'll ever figure it out but my kids might
To make a successful product it is going to take more than one genius. A software/computer hardware hacker to make the actual product. A mechanic/operator to keep things practical. And a lawyer to beat back the government and OEM goons. Plus office staff and somebody with deep pockets to supply all the money. But the opportunity is ripe.
You are partially right on the PM and NOX. It's high firing temperatures that create NOX. NOX isn't caught, its chemically converted into other compounds that are essentially harmless. The Tier 4 Interim machines were required to have low firing temperatures to limit NOX as there was no stream of reactant chemical to change it in the outlet of the engine. This made for lots of PM which they had to catch in the furnace filters and end up burning it to ash. The addition of DEF provided the needed chemicals that would react with the NOX and then allowed the firing temperatures to rise to more efficient rates. That provided for a more efficient engine. The penalty of the system is the added expense of the fluid and the maintenance item that has to be carefully monitored by the operators. The benefits are less regen cycles, a more efficient and longer lasting engine.
Is the rise in efficiency the reason some OEM's are doing away with egr I am not engine by trade but it's my understanding that egr creates the majority of soot problems in engines equipped with it and the cause of premature ring failure that pretty much makes the emissions system nonfunctional because of lower compression and oil finding it's way into the combustion chamber?
I quess I missed something. I understand nox is caught by a chemical reaction that was just simplified. I under stood it that manufactures went two different routes with reducing emmisions. Run engine hot to reduce pm or run it cold to reduce nox Then it comes down to egr vs scr It gets complicated with different horse power engines. One manufacture 72hp will run a dpf that needs to regen then another runs a pm catalist with no regen. I think I need to reread some stuff
Soot is carbon and is the particulate matter that was getting caught and burned up in the DPF. The EGR is just taking some of the exhaust gas up stream of the DPF and injecting it into the induction air to cool down the firing temperatures in the cylinders. With DEF, you don't have to cool down those temps anymore so the EGR is needed less or not at all.
It is all complicated as hell and I always have the feeling we aren't being told the whole story. I am lucky to the point that when I worked for the Cat dealer I had full access to the technical literature. The manufacturers didn't take two routes to get there either. They all took the same route with some variance in how to meet the specs. What I note is that all the manufacturers have very similar components which has made me wonder if some third party put the systems together and then sold the process and/or the components to each brand.
Svl 75-2 74hp has dpf Case 310 78hp no dpf No def on either of these engines These two engines do not use the same technology the case pm cat is very small with no sensors on or after only before. Kubota dpf has all kinds of fun sensors. Case explained 2 ways to meet emmisions by running engine cool low nox or hot high nox. One engine puts out high pm and low nox and the other the oppisite. I thought I was starting to get a understanding. I'll have to watch that training module again.
I took a class at Cummins for teir4 final engines. By the time I got into class I had most of teir4 figured out, but I still learned something. One thing I learned is that Cummins is the first to come up with a teir4 emissions engine that would work. The other thing I learned is that most everyone has a licensed version of their system. And Bosch makes almost everyone's def components. The other thing that I learned was that. Once the def system was added and how it works, the need for egr wasn't necessary. I did raise the question as to why egr was still being used, but couldn't get a answer. It appears that since then the engineering gods have agreed. And now the next generation of emissions doesn't have it. Also anything 50 horsepower and above has to have the latest emissions standards. the smaller engines will regen passively and not need def. The larger engines will regen passively and run def. Since the emissions game is expensive you will notice manufacturers for small platform equipment have a 49.5 horsepower engines.
78hp no def in fpt engines. They us a pm cat and egr. Its passive cleaning only. I think the pm cat is a doc and scr?
You don't get the choice of one or the other. You have to meet both specs. It is easier to do with a small engine. Small engines don't burn as much fuel per revolution so it is easier to get it under a specification. Here is a link to the current state of the emission laws and about halfway down on those pages there is a table that shows the limits for the various pollutants. It is showing an alternate cap and I don't right now understand what that means but do note that there is no spec for NOX on engines under 56KW of power. 56 KW is about 76 horsepower. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2014-02-06/pdf/2014-02612.pdf Things are changing, I don't know what Svl is but Case has for the most part been running licensed Cummins engines under the Case name. Is that still the true?
Fpt is 2nd largest engine manufacture that just picked up dear for there 4 cylinder. Fpt patented their scr system claiming higher hp and more efficient. Now this is interesting https://www.khl.com/news/fpt-testing-dimethyl-ether-as-alternative-fuel-for-diesels/8009829.article Oh boy is this next
Case is fpt which is owned by fpt now and isuzu engines Tou can make a engine meet either pm or nox without aftertreatment but not both. No nox for below 74? Interesting
What does fpt stand for?
FPT stands for Fiat Powertrain. I don't have any personal experience but they are weaseling their way into all sorts of equipment these days and have for some time. Recall in another thread I recently learned that JCB has engines under 74 HP with zero aftertreatment. So it can be done. But probably just barely. I am pretty sure they use EGR on those models but no filter or even catalyst in the exhaust system. Choose your poison.
Under 75hp no nox spec I wonder how much nox they are putting out Fpt is doing something right. You used to see cummins in everything now I dont see them as much. Mainly jlg is all I've seen them in as far as new stuff and those had some issues brand new blowing oil everywhere. Made in China right? 4cylinder....cant remember the model on those. They ran great once the main seals were replaced Under that hp no nox spec I wonder how much nox they are putting out.
That federal register page does not seem to show the whole story. Under 75 HP the standard is for HC + NOx. Above 75 HP each one gets its own standard. The above 75 HP standard if you add them both together is still a lot lower than the combined HC + NOx standard below 75 HP. The JCB engine below 75 HP has no aftertreatment. Above that I believe it has SCR.
A diesel by definition is a lean burn engine at anything less than full fuel. NOx is produced by the high combustion temperatures that can be a result of lean burn. EGR is an attempt to reduce the amount of excess oxygen in the combustion chamber to reduce the amount of NOx produced.
The only way I can figure this is that the amount of fuel these engines burn per shift would still produce less emissions that the larger engines. I remember one of the stories on Myth Busters that tried to prove a modern motorcycle could not be used to claim someone was being green by using it instead of a car. They used exhaust testing to show the motor cycle engine produced more pollutant per gallon of gas than the car. What they got called on was that during the test, the motor cycle used less than half the amount of gas than the car used.
Don't try to make sense of it, it does not make sense no matter how hard you try. Big engines have much different standards yet. It's all nonsense, just roll with it. Engines under 25 HP, typically 1.5 liters and below, are considered Tier 4 but basically the same as T3. Just don't give them any more ideas, the air is clean enough, let's just live with what we've got, the bureaucrats have saved everybody, now just give them their pensions and they can leave us alone.
Wouldn't it be nice if they would just "leave us alone" . It's never gonna be clean enough and there are always bureaucratic pensions to build.
Why do they spend all this time on 80hp motors, and not do a thing to the jets they fly coast to coast in? As I understand it, the jets are way worse than anything on the ground. The figures I've seen for co2 on the planes per distance traveled are atrocious. But I don't see any regs from the epa on those guys.
Because the airline industry has more money and lobbyists. The will get there though. It is only a matter of time.
If they made DEF mandatory on jets the 737 Max problems would seem minor in comparison. Jets have got a lot more efficient and cleaner burning over the years but having an engine quit in the air because of DEF issues is a lot different than having an engine quit on the ground. A single engine on a Boeing 777 has over 110,000 HP and it has 2 engines. What would the emissions be from 220,000 HP worth of diesel engines in comparison? It would take 440 500 HP (diesel) engines to make 220,000 HP.
Where are you getting the 110,000 HP figure from? The calculator I checked shows a max of 29,000 pounds of thrust at 284 miles per hour equates to about 14,300 HP. https://calculator.academy/thrust-to-horsepower-calculator/#f1p1
Cruising speed of a 777 is 560 MPH. Using a round figure of 100,000lbs. thrust your calculator comes out to 149,333.3333.... HP. That's just for 1 engine. The newest version of the engine set a new world record of over 134,000lbs. of thrust. They are so efficient the 4 engine 747 is being discontinued.
"Iiihya Captain its the Dylithium Crystals! Their making too much thrrrrust!" OK, maybe just one shot of Scotch in the morning.....noted.
Great Thread! I just swapped a 6.7 FPT engine into a unit that failed with no oil pressure. I noticed that the DEF pump and tank heater valve were taped off and unplugged. I'm told this unit had SCR delete software in the ECM allowing it to run without codes or derate. The new engine and ECM are going to disagree with that. My boss told me it needs to leave with everything working correctly,... so I'll let you know what it takes to undelete it. The DOC, DPF and SCR are all intact. Let's see if they survived as expensive mufflers.
This just came across my alerts. https://www.equipmentworld.com/regu...35a7e056326d5b1b7f&oly_enc_id=9541F2856812F0D
Yep they know the people who actually bought and work the equipment everyday don't want that crap on their equipment so they know they can make easy money cracking down.
Who is THEY?
More manufacturer problems with emissions. https://www.equipmentworld.com/equi...ds-us-excavator-production-due-to-engine-snag
They, aka the government, the ones that take your hard earned money and then give it to people that didn't earn it.
They will probably just go back to the Isuzu engines
Yesterday I found a good reason not to delete. Before the artic blast I had diagnosed a A25G Volvo truck with bad injectors. I had used my laptop and some physical troubleshooting to help me determine what the problem is. At that time the customer hadn't deleted the teir4 final. I came back this week to install the new injectors and injector cups. I installed the injectors and wrote down the trim file numbers. I then went to connect my laptop to upload the trim files and my laptop wasn't able to connect to the engine ecm. I did some looking around and discovered that the customer has deleted the teir4 final. The delete is blocking my software from communicating with the engine. So now I can't upload the trim files or do anything else for that matter. Usually having the previous trim files will not create problem, but the potential is there. So basically the customer paid 8k parts and labor and will get no warranty. If one of the injectors melts down a piston it is the customers problem. Also if any further issues should arise I will not be able to effectively troubleshoot the problem thus costing the customer more time and money. I make good money because of teir4 and I will admit that it's problematic. But most of the teir4 final woes are customer driven. Excessive idling, contaminated def fluid and fuel. Canceling regeneration and not running the machine hard and long enough. So if you're considering a delete then think twice. Because once you do you are in a grey area where dealer support is nonexistent.
It's not a gray area at all. It's as black and white as can be. I was at a customer site this week and we were talking about older machines versus newer machines. The supervisor there said they had less problems with the older stuff when a young fellow listening in piped up that he liked the new stuff. I asked him why and he replied that the emissions stuff keeps him employed. I was there to do an inspection on and excavator and there was the dealer's field service guy there changing out a DPF. He told me that there was no codes, the dealer was changing it out before there were problems that might cause down time on the machine. I asked him how much that costs. He said it was free to the customer. The machine had more than 6K hours on it.
By grey area I mean that you can still have the dealer come and do repairs, but there is no guarantee. And if I can't communicate with the engine or perform other diagnostic tests because the other ecm's don't know if the engine is running or not. Then I would have to resort to old school ways of troubleshooting which is time consuming. At 195 per hour wouldn't you want the mechanic troubleshoot faster? To each their own and its your dime. I personally don't care if you delete or don't. As long as I making money is all that matters to me.
Not a slam at owners. Some guys are just into moving dirt and don't want to know what goes on behind the curtain. They get a problematic DPF machine and want it deleted and somebody makes big promises and does it for them. Then it's a roll of the dice. Of course much of the time they just work properly after that happens. They don't call on machines that are working. Only when they have problems do they call and then it may be difficult for the mechanic. [Who is grouchy by nature.] But dollars and cents it is probably still more cost effective to delete a problematic machine and keep it working and pay some occasional increased diagnostic difficulty than to have to sell it or junk it because it becomes a problem child. EPA fines aside. We have one way of doing things where I come from and that is the right way. EPA can wreck your day.
I'm working a piece of forestry equipment that ran without oil pressure, It had delete software in it and I wonder if that allowed it to run to the point of destruction.
I have heard of several horror stories involving deleted dodge truck's. All have lost oil pressure and grenaded the engine. I think that some of the delete software is merely tricking the ecm that everything is okay and when a failure occurs you won't know about it until it's too late. Because the ecm is programmed that all is well. The better deletes will include software from a non regulated market where there isn't teir4 regulations. But most of what I have seen are bully dog type software. In fact my brother in law deleted his 5500 dodge. At first he was pleased. More power and better fuel economy. But in the end with a little over 100k miles his engine is needing a overhaul. Basically what he has gained went back into the engine repair. He has replaced the engine and traded it in and said he won't delete this truck. He has a hotshot service and wants his trucks to get 3-500k if he can before replacing it.
That has always been my fear with these, something like running a gas engine lean, the owner says it had lots of power, right up until it suddenly didn't.
Problem with the Ram trucks and longevity after doing the D are generally either a very poor D programmer and or running hot tunes. Never heard of a 6.7 cummins losing oil pressure and grenading due to the Ds. Now they may do that just due to the inherent computer software, all the indications on them (oil pressure, oil temp, coolant temp ......) are computer algorithms and not necessarily the actual indications. If you want to see how big the difference is hook up a analog oil pressure gage and bounce that off the computer/dash indicated pressure. Most of the problems they have were due to head gasket failures from poorly written tunes. They have refined the emissions enough to get similar fuel mileage but the cost of the emissions out of warranty is scary. In warranty most dealers initial response is bad def or ya didn't use mopar def so your SOL (which is totally inaccurate). The emissions system is not part of the powertrain warranty and has its own sectioned up mileage warranty depending on the part.
You can run emulators to fool the ecm to thinking certain sensors are working as they should. A much better route then reflashing ecu and not being able to hook up to it for diagnostics of non deleted components. Issue I see with emulator is maintaining optimal back pressure so it doesnt run lean
Why would a diesel need back pressure to keep from going lean? I don't see how that makes any sense at all.
The ecm is tunned for the back pressure of the dpf. Remove the dpf and use a emulator to fool the ecm to thinking it's there and working you need to provide the same back pressure it had or it will run lean wont it?
Not sure how they do it on the heavy equipment but would think its similar. On trucks the duration and timing tables control the fuel and the only thing you have to worry about it making sure there is large enough exhaust to get rid of the exhaust for the increased fuel/air that gets used. Unless your going huge power its not usually a concern but most try to get as free flowing exhaust as possible. If I remember correctly the DPF sensors are basically to enable a regen once the differential pressure gets to a certain threshold (and or put it in limp mode if its a truck). I dont recall what all is sensed on the SCR for control of the DEF injection or if that just gets fed inputs via the engine load and or relies on the nox sensors. Edit: Got called off to work, anyhow wanted to add I am not sure about the emulation process. I am use to where they actually reprogram the computer to load new tables and disable the emissions related sensors and what not. As far as running lean its generally the intake side that effects that. More air (like a bigger turbo) without adjusting the fueling it goes lean or the opposite of adding bigger injectors without matching the correct turbo goes rich and ya get the unburned fuel (bunch of smoke).
Overfueling or rich is easy to do. Underfueling just gets low power not really considered lean.
I don't know nuthin' 'bout pick up trucks, But I just plugged everything back together on this TigerCat. I tested the DEF pump, then I ran a regen and it looks like it passed just fine! Not what I expected. I don't know why they tried a half-assed delete in the first place, I guess over some burned harness? Seems like a lot of trouble for no gain
New Jersey is now going after used truck for sale listings. Guys will be selling trucks through a tor browser on the silk road, and have the meet up after they pick up their "prescription" at the local 420 store. https://www.thedrive.com/www.thedri...ty-diesel-truck-on-facebook-and-yes-they-know