Wonder how long before we have def systems on equipment or does someone already use it and does have any problems with it on there pickup yet.
We have it on our new service trucks. It will probably be on Tier 4 final next year for the earthmoving side. This year Tier 4 interim is being released ( we already have some)and it does not have DEF. We are told it will have DEF but it is not 100% confirmed yet. EDIT: The only problems with the DEF are finding it.
Around here its about 8$ a gallon and pretty avalible like advance auto parts , tractor supply and most truck stops . Ive been thinking about trading my pickup but havent heard much about cost as far as how far go on a tank and what happens when you run out and if any aftermarket computer chips can bypass it yet.
The DEF tank is designed to go to two tanks of fuel. If it is almost empty it will derated and give warnings, when it is empty it will shut off the engine. Filling it with water will not fool it, there is a sensor to check for the PH. I think it is sold here in 2.5 gallon jugs for $13. How long will it be before we have to get equipment emission tested?
Lee, I am willing to bet in just a few years we will see almost everything being tested. Smitty
Yair...could someone explain please? what is DEF?
(diesel exhaust fluid ) it gets spayed into the exhaust to help burn up particulets befor releasing to the air
This should explain it Scrub, it is called AdBlue or NONOX here. http://www.agcoforwardthinking.com.au/scr-engines/adblue/ This is how it works. Click the arrow. http://www.volvo.com/group/scr/en-gb/SCR_technology/scranimation.htm RnR.
Man, you guys are getting gouged on the price of that stuff. I am a Case IH Ag dealer and we are selling 2.5 gallon jugs for about $6. I can't speak for the construction industry, but on our Case IH Ag tractors, they are engineerd so that the cost of the DEF is offset by diesel savings (1 gallon of DEF used = 2 gallons of diesel saved vs. Tier III tractors). As far as finding it, like WV said, it is at a lot of truck stops anymore, and all of the Case IH dealers should have it by now (or very soon). Here is another link that talks about DEF and Tier 4 emissions. http://www.caseih.com/tier4/Pages/Overview.aspx The more I learn about it and understand it, the more I think the benefits GREATLY outweigh the disadvantages (having to add a second fluid).
I heard a F-350 owner say he has to fill his DEF tank about every 5,000 miles. I do not know the capacity however. Earlier, I had heard the big 3 were trying to get DEF fils & oil changes on about the same interval.
Well why is it some engine manufacturers require DEF injection and others only require a filter that gets changed every 5,000 hours or so? Personally I think this tier 4 b.s. should only be applicable in places that have trouble with smog like California, British Columbia, and stinky old Toronto. If anything more should be done on making equipment and vehicles more fuel efficient and cutting down on fuel bills.
The system on the D6T i have seen is a pretty good set up, as long as the operator lets the engine regen when it is required and the parts last. It is a basic system when you know it and it really does run clean. There is no smoke at all even in a torque stall. In some areas the exhaust will really be cleaner than the air going in. The exhaust on our service truck is just as clean on the inside as it is on the outside. This is with 3K miles. The requirements are different for different engines depending on HP ratings. The smaller engine will use a passive system and the bigger will use an active system. changing the filter at 5K hours is a calculated time frame. Basically the filter (The muffler) fills up with soot from unburnt fuel, the system monitors this and at certain percentage it needs to regen. This may be daily or every few days. This is where it sprays fuel into the filter to burn off the soot (active system). This now become ash that gets trapped in there, It is this that needs serviced at 5k hours because it should be full of ash. Either remove and get cleaned or remove and replace with a reman or new one.
I'm guessing here that the fluid is urea and that is part of what is called a "selective catalytic reduction". Cat so far does not use this but from what I'm told, all their Tier 4 interim machines are set up to have it installed when the time comes. The exhaust filter system is termed a "diesel particulate filter" and it is on most of the larger Cat equipment this year for interim Tier 4. Neither system will improve fuel usage. Both systems take up large amounts of space in the machines and greatly increase the cost of repair or rebuild and operation. I also believe that it is not too far down the road when there will be smoke police out looking for machines that they can apply revenue enhancement on.
Yair...thanks for explanations fellers. RocksnRoses...whats the go here in Aus? are these systems becoming mandatory? As you will realise I have been out of the game these last few years and I'm pretty out of touch. A dumbass question...are the V8 diesels in the US light trucks direct injection?
Thanks for the explanation Lee and John C. I think here in this part of Canada it will be a while before they have some type of rent-a-cop to go exhaust sniffing here other than possibly semi's and even then with a province as big as this one Motor Carrier Enforcement has a hard enough time keeping up with all the offenders. And I think a lot of big contractors still using Detroit 2 stroke motors and old Cat D8H's will be very reluctant to put any kind of exhaust filtering system on their old dinosaurs.
I have pictures of the Tier4I D6T in my picture thread in shoptalk. I think the engines are more fuel efficient because of the NRS is keeping the Stoichiometric air fuel ratio spot on along with the common rail being extremely precise with it ability to inject a quantity of fuel.. The regen, the DEF and the total cost all more than offset that though. Remember Ultra low sulfur fuel and low ash oil has to be used in these engines. I don't know about smoke police but state and federal construction contracts will demand a certain percentage of equipment to meet the standards. probably have a points system that will punish the older equipment.
Scrub, there is no requirement at this stage for anyone to have to upgrade and no talk of older engines being scrapped like in the US. Obviously, all new equipment coming into the country will have the cleaner engines in it and considering that we don't have the pollution problems that the US has, I guess the hierarchy are happy to leave it at that for now. We don't have too many problems in this state, but I think they are pretty hot on excessive smoke in the eastern states, you probably know more about that than me. All of the new trucks coming in from Europe are fitted with the SCR technology and the US scourced trucks are using the EGR technology, so it is going to happen anyway. As time goes on, these technologies will slowly filter through to all diesel engines and we seem to turn equipment over quicker here, than what they do in the US. RnR.
Wouldn't heavy machinery with engines manufactured before the new rules come into effect basically be exempt from new emissions equipment the way Semi-Tractors are?
One thing you have to watch out with Urea is it has a shelf life and if it gets to old the engine will go into limp mode as if you where out of fluid. It also freezes but GM as well as other I'm sure has a way to heat it, but your in limp mode until it melts. I know on GMs it won't shut down the engine just go into limp mode and you won't be able to go over 5MPH or something like that is you run out of Urea. The Urea tank is ~6gal. and last ~5K IIRC and there is a tuner by H&S that will disable it for off road use only of coarse. Here I doubt you will have to do retrofits for a very long time, but in places like CA thats a another story.
True, but CA is pretty much it's own country anyway.
My 2005 peterbilt got 10 mpg with a cat eng. My new 2009 peet gets 6 mpg with a cumins, They spray diesle fuel into the exuast system to help clean up the emissions. Its been back to the dealer multiple times with turbo problems.
I wonder what the carbon footprint is to produce the urea,if one looks at the total picture, we would be using many gals of what I thought to be fertilizer,in comparisons to the extra manufacturing of the components and the urea its self for this system,would the carbon footprint really be lower? are we really ahead with the total carbon picture?
Yeah, the DEF is for selective catalytic reduction, it mixes with the Oxides of Nitrogen (they like to make smog and acid rain) in a way that the exhaust spits out nitrogen and water. The next stage is the particulate filter, catches soot till its hot enough to burn off or 'regen' Both systems have to be designed with the engine although there are some aftermarket soot filters for busses. It seems the days of smoke are going away slowly.
The new Case F Series wheel loaders introduced this year use selective catalytic reduction (the kind of emissions-reduction system that requires DEF) now to meet Tier 4 Interim emissions levels. Case sources engines for a number of models from Isuzu, which often/always (??) uses selective catalytic reduction (SCR) on diesels where other engine makers are typically using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and a diesel particulate filter (DPF), a system that does not require DEF. Based on the Case link earlier in this thread, it looks like a number of Case ag tractors are using SCR as well. EPA's Tier 4 Final emissions limits will likely push most off-road engine makers into using SCR for off-road applications, although I think the first size classes to hit T4F (>75 hp in 2013) may be able to meet the limits without SCR. You'll likely see SCR and DPFs on much of the next size range to be required to comply with Tier 4 Final (175 to 750 hp in 2014). Engines from 75 to 174 hp have to comply with Tier 4 Final standards the first of 2015. Headed toward SCR in much of that bunch, too, but a lot can happen in the intervening few years. L
Whole web site devoted to DEF here: http://www.discoverdef.com/def-overview.aspx
The Kobelco Mark 9 excavators introduced at CONEXPO also require DEF. And here's the 411 on some of those Case wheel loaders: 1021F And 1121F Loaders CASE F SERIES WHEEL LOADERS