I recently quoted a new Pettibone 204 Tier 4 pipe handler to a customer. I was told by Pettibone that the DEF system CANNOT be run out of fluid...…………...if so, the Cummins people have to come out and plug in their computer to get the machine to run again. Does this make sense to anyone? What is aggravating me is the new machine has a super small DEF tank, and they are telling me it will need topped off every 1.5-2 tank fill ups. I'm not that familiar with the DEF systems on most other equipment, but does this seem normal? I have a new 2018 Dodge truck with the Cummins and no one said anything of the sort...……..although Im getting 5-7 tanks of diesel per 5 gallon fill up on DEF.
A lot of our farm machines have to be filled every 2-3 tank fulls of diesel. Some of it varies on how hard you work the engine. The harder its worked seams like the less DEF is used. once you are used to filling them its not that bad to remember. reliability and throwing codes is a whole different story. LOL. Yep its stupid.
If the system detects empty for a prolonged period, it derates. Once you enter second level derate, it recognizes that as "tampering" Which must be recommisioned by a dealer tech . Thank you EPA. Yes, they are supposed to spec tanks to last at least one and a half tanks of fuel or a solid days work. That's the way the Cummins rep explained it to me.
Sounds close to right. Your dodge will only go so far empty on DEF before it derates to almost nothing like 15 mph. As far as the Perttibone and Cummins I would think it would warn you before it went crazy. Cat told us on the newest rig you have two chances to ignore a regen or run out of DEF before it takes ET to bring it back to normal. All a pain if you ask me....
DEF tank size is regulated by the EPA. For a truck with 100 useable gallons of fuel, the equation is DEF required = 100 x 0 .06 = 6 gallons or more of DEF REF: Page 56 https://www.kenworth.com/media/25008/kenworth_medium_duty_bbm_dec_2011.pdf
At 2% of fuel usage that should be good for 3 tanks of fuel. I'm not sure about Cummins in off-road appliactions, but FPT is around 5% of fuel usage in combines.
I've heard CA truckers have bee usin the def tanks, fer urine disposal...
We don't participate with the nonsense . Top the tank with some diesel & run with it .
This is out of a Deere manual on SCR derates. The DEF and SCR systems on Final Tier 4 engines are required to reduce NOx emissions generated by the engine. When certain components of these systems malfunction, the NOx emissions increase and the engine is out of emissions compliance. To keep the engine in compliance with emissions regulations, a separate derate schedule is used for the DEF/SCR system malfunctions. There are certain faults that can occur where the ECU cannot determine if the system is operating properly and the ECU shuts down the DEF dosing system. When this happens a warning is displayed and an internal counter is started. The engine will operate normally without the DEF dosing system operating, but the NOx emissions will be out of compliance. Once the internal counter reaches 4 hours, a derate with a 50% torque decrease and engine speed reduced to low idle will be implemented over a 10 minute time period. This will, in effect, disable the engine from performing as needed. Once the DTC’s that caused the counter to start are repaired, the counter will stop, and if the derate was implemented, the derate will be removed. However, if another DTC is set that shutdowns the DEF dosing system, the counter will restart at the point it was at when the previous DTC was repaired. To reset the internal counter, the engine must operator for 40 hours without a DTC that shuts down the DEF dosing system. If a DTC is set during this 40 hours, the counter will start from the previous count.
They may have sized the tank small because tier 4 equipment that sits for longer periods of time is going to have problems with the after treatment system because the self life of DEF is much shorter than fuel. I hope someone comes up with a better after treatment system, there are just to many problems with this currant system.
So...….with all the brilliant minds in the world, that cured Polio...……….that sent man to the moon, ……..that created the computer, cell phones, internet...…………..THIS SYSTEM IS THE BEST THEY COULD COME UP WITH?! JESUSSSSSSSSSSSSSS There has GOT to be a better way.
When the engineers write it all out on the whiteboard it looks like a chemical equation for an advanced placement science test The bottom line is thhe SCR stand alone systems seem to operate more efficiently and more reliably then the tier 4 interim systems did.. Most have done away with burners and DPF The bigger picture is we need to look forward to what tier 5 or stage 5 is going to bring us it's been postponed thanks to the trump administration thank you Mr. Trump but it's still coming down-the-line eventually .
I’ll say from my experience with trucks that DPF and DEF is better than DPF alone. Considerably believe it or not. If they’ll keep the thing from needless idling it will make a HUGE difference. I’d go as far as to see about having the ECM programmed to kill it after so many minutes of idle time.
Any chance you can buy the pettibone as a "glider" like they do with the over the road trucks? They provide the forklift, you provide the powertrain?
I don't like the whole "anti-idle". I realize its the best way to deal with the DPF and DEF issues, but for my primary application- in the cranes, we do a ton of idling. We're working, swing a piece over, and sit there while they connect it. Then rev it back up, swing over and grab another piece. Might be minutes between picks, might be hours. But you can't hardly shut the stupid crane down everytime. Then when you restart, you have to go through the whole set up computer/LMI screen, and frankly, if I've got a bunch of stick out on a job, I don't like to shut them off. It may not restart. Who want's to sit there with 188' of boom out over top of something, and if you shut it down, its 3 minutes until you can get back moving again, if it starts. Its a question without a lot of answers. Charging by the hour, the customer wants that crane moving when its time to go. I've recently run into a lot of guys in the trucking game that have totally given up on the new trucks, and have gone the "glider" route. But they are all worried, that its a short term solution with the gov't limiting production numbers.
That must be the EPA regulations as CAT is pretty much identical to that as well with counter and derates.
The way I understand it, the EPA dictates what and how. Its up to the engine mfr to fit in those parameters, submit it for approval and wait. But we should all feel better knowing they're here to help. Back to original point. I believe most tanks are produced by 2 or 3 companies. Would it be possible to spec or demand a larger tank. The only downsides would be the ability to thaw a frozen tank in the winter and wasting a tank that sat too long.
Most mid-range trucks are programmed to shut down engine after XXX minutes idle time. Adjustable duration via the ECM.
Seeing as my service truck and my wet line lowboy trucks are Tier IV final, and do a lot of idling (lowboy is around 30%, and my service truck is around 50%), the excessive idling solution is to raise the RPMs, when encountering prolonged idle periods. My service truck does this automatically, raising the RPMs to 1050 for 5 minutes, on 15 minute intervals. 90k miles on the service truck, and one time, the DEF doser nozzle needed cleaned, and, one time, the EGR valve passage needed cleaned. The only other check engine light events were for a turbo actuator electrical, and a failed exhaust manifold gssket.
Biggest issue we have is with telehandlers. They all have direct drive fans and they never really get worked hard. When -28C and colder hits, it takes too long to get the DEF thawed so then it throws inducement codes. I think the biggest stumbling block is operators. They do not know how to run this stuff correctly. These emission systems need heat. You can't make heat with 80% idle time and 20% light work. I am so glad I'm getting out of the rental industry just as we're replacing our old gensets with tier 4 ones. We have had nothing but wet stacking issues with our older units because everybody rents gens that are much too large. I kid you guys not we had a customer run a 100KW gen all winter powering only a single 1000 watt light. Then they complain that the thing is a POS because it freezes the crankcase vent twice a week and pukes out all the oil
Typical for Cummins powered service trucks and PTO usage set-up. The 50% PTO time (increased fuel usage) boosted sales of auxiliary diesel power packs. Going APP adds an additional $18-28K on the price of a service truck; all emissions related after Tier1. IMO, most mid-range is dry vans, reefers and delivery trucks. All of the used rigs I've looked at shut down after idling 10-12 minutes. Emissions controls need exhaust heat to operate per design.
I'm in the same situation with cranes. A new crane may have a 400 hp engine to drive it down the road, then when it gets to the jobsite, it sits in one place and just runs the pumps with that 400hp engine. There's no way that you can get that engine warm just running the pumps, you could run them with a -100hp engine easy. The crane I ran with a DPF/ regen was hilarious. You couldn't get it to regen automatically when just set up and running pumps. (Link belt and the cat man each blamed the other). If you could get it to start its regen manually from the lower- if you would hit the throttle upstairs (trying to keep working) it would 1/2 the time kick out of regen mode. If it was really hot outside, and you did get it to regen, and it was sitting there doing its thing for 25 minutes (because you couldn't keep working because it would stop the regen), then it sometimes would get too hot under the fiberglass engine cover, and stop the regen because it was too hot in the engine compartment. This was 6 years ago or so, and a year ago I worked with the same company- and they still fight to keep that crane running. And it was a $800,000 crane new. I wouldn't own one if they gave it to me. What are they supposed to do with the telehandlers? go run hot laps around the jobsite? Its just like the cranes- there's no way you can actually work them that hard. I realize the EPA is forcing this on us, but when the engines won't do the work that they should? Progress shouldn't be going backwards.
One solution for the telehandlers would be a fan clutch or a hydraulic fan. At least then you wouldn't be constantly pulling -35C air through the rad and engine bay. With cranes, is it possible to install a small, 3-4 litre engine to run the hydraulics? What about a load circuit on the hydraulics? Keep the pumps loaded up and make the engine run under load when in standby?
Some of the 100 ton plus cranes are two engined, one to drive on the road- one upstairs for pumps. Actually the old grove 25-60 ton (old TM series) were twin engined too. Of course the bean counters don't like this solution, two engines are more expensive than one, especially with the new engines being so much more expensive. I think they have also tried cylinder deactivation on some of the all terrains with only one large engine.
I love that "We" need to brain storm to resolve (insert pretty much any truck/equipment manufacturer) problems! Don't they have people much "smarter" than us to figure it out? $800,000 for a crane that doesn't work, my ***!! Machines that go into regen all the time because they can't placard the inside of a cab with stickers that say "DO NOT IDLE!!" Or a simple explanation of how to run a manual regen, I guess the cab walls are too full of lawyer stickers so you don't run yourself over or so you know how to Turn on the dome light....the whole emissions thing is a huge joke and we are the ones that pay for all the nonsense....rant over, carry on.....
I heard they went back to twin engines . Makes perfect sense given the difference in horsepower requirement between the truck chassis & crane house . I always thought it was a more simple system overall with a twin engine rig . Not to mention if the truck fuel tank is a little low you can borrow some from the house unit to get back home . Not that I ever did that . LOL !
Regeneration cycle . When I hear a phrase like that …… I think about lunch time chomping on a hamburger & checking the engine oil & fuel level on the machine . LOL !
Forget this regen stuff, keep your old Jimmies going. Im sure they burn less fuel in the end anyway, less fuel = less emission?
They keep going back and forth- every year or two liebherr changes from one engine to two engine. The largest AT I've run that was one engine was a GMK 4085. It had a tip up cab like a cabover semi, but if the boom is in the rest- you can't tip the cab up. And you have to tip the cab up, to get at anything on the engine. And the fuel filters are mounted on the engine in canisters, directly on top of the engine, directly under the center of the cab. Can anyone else see where this path goes, because I've been down it- and the weeds were tall and the language was colorful.
I've been pretty deep in the generator world for a while now, and just glad I've mostly lived in areas without emissions after seeing pictures of the Tier 4 equipment. Wouldn't mind getting into the rental world for the variety, but feel you dealing with dummies running a trailer mount 4024 Deere in a Kohler to run a couple of saws on a jobsite. Always fun to finally get the wet stacking bastards set up on full load and launch some chunks out.
Well, who in here is gonna fix this mess!? Who is going to lead the revolt!? Who is going to stand up and demand answers!? Who, amongst us, is going to be the leader......and throw up the finger to the MAN!?
Building my armored D9 now. Who wants point? Problem is they always win.
That's for the zombie apocalypse. You need to REFOCUS!
Refocusing energy...zap, zap, zap for increase monetary corporate profits. https://www.5gspaceappeal.org/the-appeal
I'm trying Vetech63 to do as much as I can- I refuse to buy the new equipment, and I don't do work in California. It hasn't seemed to change much.
Until it lights the foam sound deadening insulation in the engine bay on fire..... Happened to me a couple times. Burning embers drop out the drain hole in the muffler, get caught in the vortex created by the engine fan, then get sucked through the gap between firewall and radiator. We have had a couple that actually had a 12" flame burning out the stack there was so much fuel in there. We were probably about 4 seconds from melting the muffler it was white hot lol.
He died several years ago...
That's a great point Crane Op ! With all the boom jammed out over a job would be the worst time you could have an engine failure or some BS shut down over an emissions add on . Would almost be like the Captain of an airliner addressing the passengers …. " No need to worry folks as we are just loosing altitude due to engine regen cycle , the engines should fire back up fine after a few minutes " .
Number 45 has put the Man on the run . LOL !
I've noticed one thing, and an extension of the general idea would go a long way towards making a point. Older clean equipment, III and before, is bringing premium prices around my area anymore. I've had more than one guy tell me if I ever decide to sell out, he wants first dibs on my stuff. I feel for you guys who have to run newer equipment, for whatever reason; my business is geared such that I don't have to. I do have to pay attention to periodic maintenance pretty carefully, but have zero downtime because of electronics/software/firmware/emissions - got enough headaches with the regular stuff, thank you. For my room-temp IQ, simpler is better; I work in some pretty remote country so I often have a long way to go for parts/service. If I can DIY my fixes in the field, I'm days ahead for time. My point would be, if enough contractors were going into dealerships and asking about 15 or 20 year old equipment, clean, rebuilt, not abused, and not even considering purchasing new units, something would happen....I think. From what I see on YouTube younger guys starting out seem to not fear substantial debt and are much more comfortable with a chipset or DPF idling them for days - they raise cain with the dealer for loaners instead. Granted, I'm over the hill like a lemming on parade, but I've seen plenty of emissions nightmares as an employee - I don't need any as a one-horse show.
Actually good clean used equipment generally is not available. People are keeping it and running till junk. Rebuilding has been knocked in the head by parts and labor pricing. To add to that, financing for rebuilds dried up twenty or more years ago. Finally, the skilled people who have the ability to rebuild something are in my generation and are retiring out. The system is set up to cycle out the old and eventually make it illegal to use it on any type of business venture.
This is all true but even if we all buy into that way of doing things and "pass the cost on to the consumer", the consumer has got options and one of those options is to do nothing and just live with it the way it was, do not hire anyone, do not do any job, no money changes hands, no work gets done. We are heading that way in so many different areas, it is scary, and frustrating that all it takes is one stroke of the pen to put it back the way it used to be, but nobody is willing to take up that pen.
In kalifornia, they make you run older tractors, without oil, till the motor dies, then give you a tax credit, of like $7500, to buy a new electronic tier 4 equipped tractor. Shame to see good working machines scrapped, when they are still serviceable. Somewhere there's a video, I posted on this forum, before...
The other thing about us younger guys is we dont know any different on electronic equipment I graduated high school in 09 in my working life I have had less exposure to mechanical engines than not Cars have always had catalysts since I can remember so it's a way of life for us not saying I dont wish it was simpler but when you dont know any different you just dont know I mean how many guys under 30 know about 2 stroke Detroit's or have seen them in real life Just saying
That's without a doubt the most insane thing I've heard in years - I'll be carrying that with me to my grave.
That's like Obama's cash for clunkers program 8-9 years ago. Trade in for 4500 of taxpayer money, no matter what condition. Add a silica/ salt water slurry in crankcase after draining the oil. Run it till it dies. Dealers and dealer mechanics were beside themselves. Because once the ink was dry, it had to be scrapped, never to be titled again. Anything with a V8 or check engine light. Like new Rams and Broncos. Even saw a couple muscle cars in the local junkyard marked C4C , no parts
***
Reason # 2,062 why I don't live in Kali.
Bull ****, DIYDAVE post a URL link to that Cal,gov law, regulation or program.
I do remember an article like what DIYDAVE mentioned . Like a " buy back " type program . All equipment is destroyed & scrapped . There goal is to get rid of older equipment using other peoples money . That just aint rite ! https://abc30.com/business/valley-a...p-farmers-buy-newer-cleaner-tractors/4537780/ Now on the other hand if an individual decided for one reason or another they want send a piece of older equipment to the scrap yard and purchase a new model with there own bread that's cool .
Thanks fer stickin up fer me td25c, perhaps I shoulda added that it was a buyback program. I wish I could remember the title to the post, but I think it was DEF related. Hadda video od a big good runnin JD 4XXX type tractor that the owner of a vinyard blew the motor on, sos he could get the subsidy $ on a newer tractor. Maybe somebody better at searchin can find it, but I think it was in the last coupla years... As for stan, well nobody can read all the posts here, maybe he was just havin a bad day. I aint gonna jump through hoops just to satisfy him, though...
well, whaddaya know, I found it, sorta. apparently the video is now blocked in the US, but here is the post... Anytime you get out east, stan, you owe me a good breakfast, fer showin your kali gubment at work... HeavyEquipmentForums
Was thinking about this thread today . Spreading stone with the C-60 Chevy . Was hauling off of a stock pile on site & kept track of time & fuel burn . Less then 2 gallons per hour & never shut the truck off . Let it idle while loading . That aint bad for a 52 year old truck with a small block Chevy under the hood . We probably better keep that truck .
No they do not make you run older tractors, blah, blah. The all voluntary programs (like cash for junkers) to receive tax credits and loans for non-gov-contact upgrades, the vehicle (farm, truck, etc) must be scrapped and engine made in inoperable. Farmer AG equipment per current regulations have no mandatory regristration requirements (YET) or annual usage reporting requirement. Registration is also voluntary; we would like you to report all of your equipment so we know how many diesel engines are out there, LOL The recent 'Right To Repair' law pushed by John Deere, Western Equipment Manufactures Association and California Farm Bureau will eliminate 'voluntary' upgrading via repowering with emissions compliant engines or retrofitting with after treatment particle mufflers... In Calif the little guys get FxxKed; owner-operators and small businesses fleets.
I have definitely seen an uptick in re-powering and repairing of older equipment to put off purchasing FT4 machines.
I'll check price to repower D8L with Tier4 final out of curiosity. Thinking $168thou; 3X plus price increase compared to new Tier1 3408E.
That 544 I'm currently repowering has a T3 engine and it runs around $15,000 (labor and incidentals not included) after getting core allowance back. Pretty good deal I think.
Early in my career we rebuilt crane/log loaders, dozers, loaders, log trucks all from the ground up . Some of the machines would come thru the shop twice . I know labour is expensive, but what is it costing us to remelt this stuff ,water it down with plastic and computers in the cause of making it better . The old way sure kept the pool of talent busy.
Because bean counters dont understand the first thing about fleet management and a rebuild vs repair most think a rebuild is a repair and it's not they also think warranty is a magic thing that makes every thing not company problems So bean counters have bought into the idea it's to much overhead to staff a shop and rotate machines instead we only own what we think is enough iron and we replace it with a new machine right now not 3 months from now
Believe it or not, bean counters rule our society because we base value in dollars. The problem is that the cost of a new machine can be financed with someone else's dollars. The total cost of that new machine does not count the disposal and recovery of the materials in an old machine. As long as we are allowed to just push that old machine into a vacant place and let the weeds grow through it without any intervening cost of recovery, a new machine will be more cost effective than rebuilding an old one. By using someone else's dollars we give up our control as well.
in the process of buyin a new machine, gonna keep the old one, fer the dirtier jobs, at least till something major breaks...
When the loader, excavator or truck leaves the drawing board it's life expectancy was designed into it. Cummins, Cat or Detroit doesn't want to keep building replacement parts for old engines. They want you to buy a new one. Therefor after so many years it's automatically an obsolete part, engine or piece of equipment. There's no money in manufacturing old obsolete equipment. And those companies like the EPA rules, emission systems are money makers.
Planned obsolescence!
It's interesting how the new stuff is obsolete much sooner than the old stuff. Apparently plastic doesn't hold up like steel and iron.
Like Climate Change, LOL
Agreed. Stuff that was new when I was a kid (80’s) is still going. I seriously doubt much of what was new when mine were born (04,10,14) will be around when they’re my age. We’ve got Watson rigs from the early 90’s that have rolled hour meters twice so over 20k hours. I’m curious to see what the Soilmec looks like IF it makes that many. I doubt it does. It’s all the unnecessary crap that will doom it just like all the other modern equipment. Same with pickups. The bones will be good but unless we repower with something mechanical they won’t move and none of the bells and whistles will function. Funny thing is with my background being in older iron I sometimes look like a genius when I fix older stuff without a computer! Haha.
Can still see Vette's at the car shows from the 50's/60's even early 70's with Metal bumpers. When they went to the molded plastic conformal body lines stuff the materials rotted so fast you could see the cars after 10 years sitting with those bumpers crumbling off. Still hard to find 80's cars with those plastic covers that are not crumbled crap or OBVIOUS Foreign made replacements. Same holds true for the HE market, ultralight wiring, very fragile, obsolescence of electronics faster and faster where the old hard part steel warriors are Still getting it just parts are thinning out as the manufacturers quit producing. Laughed when saw my first Komatsu Cummins Clone with EXTERNAL fuel lines, just could NOT believe they did that. Surprised they did not clone the old 180s with a blower.
With any tier four engine one of the worst problems is idling. If it doesn't need to be running shut it off. Even with the great piston/liner and ring sets of today excessive idling will cause wet stacking, especially in winter. Summer is just as bad because everyone wants a cool cab. The only benefit of summer is the engine temp stays in the higher zone. Even with engine idled up it is lacking a boost charge from turbo. In my end of the diesel repair our biggest problems can be related directly to excessive idling. The DPF does not like oil.