Well, it happened a little sooner than I thought, but here we are. I have my first tier 4 engine in the shop. A Perkins 854 in a Terex PT110 track steer. The customer has been calling me for probably a month or more telling me his Terex is acting funny and can I help him over the phone. Each time, the conversation ended with "ok, I'll bring it in". So just last week, while I was on a trip to visit family in Chicago, he calls, on the jobsite, putting in soil nails, and he's got the drill buried 10' in, and the engine's deader than 4:00. Dude is in a complete panic. What happened is, his turbo crapped out, and all his induction tubing was "sucked in" like a kid trying to drink a thick milkshake though a thin straw. I told him his engine is tryin' to breathe, but something is blocking the way. I told him to disconnect the hose between the engine and the intercooler to get that thing running just enough to back out the drill, and get it on a trailer. Don't mess around, just take the hose off, and get it on the trailer pronto, and shut it down. Which he did, and now it's here. So yeah, turbo is toast. I mean just ground to bits, no rebuild is going to do it, he needs new. No biggie there, a couple grand and he'll be back and running. Except. The DOC / DPF is FULL of oil. I mean black sooty oil just dripping out of it. Nasty. I knew right away he has been running this for months with a failed / failing turbo that had just been sending oil through the engine, and the DPF. The bad news doesn't stop there. An oil soaked DPF might not be able to be cleaned. I've already been turned away by 2 local shops, and am now sending it to a place in Iowa, who says they can clean it. For about a grand anyway. Fortunately they will be able to tell me one way or the other before they charge me, so there's that at least. The worst part is Perkins wants like $5K for a new one. FUG. Total suckage there pal. If this shop can't clean it, he's gotta buy new. Does anyone know of any other options I missed? So instead of being a $3500 turbo replacement, this could end up costing him close to 10 grand. Unreal. Is this tier 4 stuff worth it? Geez.
I think Tier 4 is total nonsense, but this customer was not operating in the same universe of reality to let it get that bad. I don't care if it is Tier 4 or Tier 0, if it is having a problem and you don't know what is wrong with it, don't keep running it or it is going to cost you money.
I’ve worked with a lot of companies like that. I was running an old 9 started out ok,about a hour in to the day started to see engine oil coming out of radiator pressure relief. I told the boss ,he told me to keep running it and keep an eye on it. The hood was covered with oil, I refused to run it any more and parked it. Next day they came to move it didn’t check oil or water,fired it up took engine out . What happened was engine oil cooler went bad ,when running oil pressures kept antifreeze out of pan when I shutdown the antifreeze went into the pan.
I have heard of much less totaling a filter but if your already looking at 3500 for a turbo then 5000 for the filter is not bad it sucks but what really sucks was there was mo need for that to happen I am surprised the machine could perform or that no one was concerned about the oil usage
They probably were concerned about the oil usage, just had to finish that next job. I hope they made $5000 in profit from completing that job to help pay for the filter they wrecked.
Is it me or does 5000 sound cheap fo an exhaust filter
These guys make me make a living. If all of my customers were good about maintenance, I’d be broke. I LOVE these guys! This is a just about daily occurrence at my shop. I only post about the ones that stand out. This is my first exposure to a tier 4 engine. It just occurred to me that I only specified the DPF for replacement. I didn’t say DOC, so that 5 grand might only be part of it That busted turbo is going to be PRICEY!
Every time I'm asked about the new equipment, I tell them to check the used market for older stuff. LOL
Well, what do ya know, the guys who cleaned the DOC / DPF called me today and said it's done, and are sending it on back. That just saved my customer untold thousands. It's almost like this isn't reality, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'll stay optimistic for now.
Cherry bomb still offers a good exhaust filter . https://cherrybomb.com/project/glasspack/ https://www.autozone.com/exhaust/performance-muffler/cherry-bomb-glasspack-muffler/696469_0
Yep had close to same problem...filter was only slightly plugged....but caused enough back pressure to literally cook the turbo...it was cherry red...quite expensive to fix....it was caused because we rarely got the machine hot enough working it...it was in my yard loader with pallet forks...short run times...not enough rpms....and boom major expense...now we rev the cramp out of it and leave it running most of the day...really defeats the purpose of tier4 lol...burning way more fuel...but it runs...i miss the old engines....i actually bought a chinese loader for yard use with no tier 4....so far so good.
Tier 4 is E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! The eco folk think EVERYONE should pay for the 5% additional reduction in emissions that tier 4 from tier 4 interim causes. Homeowners, municipalities, cost to build streets the list goes on and on...They think money grows on trees I guess...I have had NO luck increasing MY rates, even though these costs have skyrocketed.
What raising rates???such rebellion will cause ripples....shhhhhhh....lol..our rates locally have decreased because everyone that quit or got fired in the oil patch apparantly bought a mini, skid steer, and dump trailer lol....i am lucky...my clients are loyal and i kept same rates....but i am guessing my rates are staying the same for awhile
There is NO WAY we are going to come through this without severely raised rates. Once the fired guys from the oil patch have to pay for a set of injectors they can't do themself and a DPF they can't do themself. They will be gone from the business. It can only go on so long.
That and they suck at what they do...too fast....crappy finishing...just want the money.. i hope they are gone soon....60 dollars an hour is too low
We are at 100 but there are guys charging 75 and I know they are not making money but they probably dont have insurance either As for maintaining equipment no one cares when they buy now and pay later it's just like getting paid it's getting harder to get paid timely people want you to carry 60 and 90 days with no interest it's crazy we are not banks One thing is for sure if things are still this busy 18 months from now the rates will have gone up cause everyone I know is going to new iron
I don’t know how anyone can charge 75 and make money. I’m at 95, and most of my bucks come from parts sales. I charge 30% markup on everything. I’m going up to 100 soon
People that charge 75 an hour are just paying themselves to have a job they have no real business sense as to cost and most of them have no employees doesnt matter weather your a mechanic shop or a small excavation company when you pay yourself just to have a job you wont make it in the long run Same can be said for people charging to low of a rate for equipment work just to get more work you lock yourself into people expecting you to be cheap and it's hard to raise your prices customers of quality is much better than quantity
We have old equipment and only work with our neighbors on side jobs. $65/ hour, but we have minimal costs.
Surprising nobody, this was a boomerang. It came back on Monday with engine in derate, black smoke leaking out of all exhaust connections, barely running. Yep, DPF plugged solid with soot. I cracked it open, let the soot out, started it up, and it puked out a big old black cloud, and actually ran right. I took it up to a "real" diesel shop, Diesel Forward here in Denver, a local shop who has the software to talk to it. I'm stuck in the stone age, as far as that stuff goes. He says he's using OEM software, not anything aftermarket like Texa. Anyway, this is what I got: 1 active diagnostic code 4 active event codes 6 logged event codes The 1 active diagnostic code is J1209-4 exhaust gas pressure below normal (126 occurrences) Active events - High differential pressure and low oil viscosity (the low oil viscosity is probably because the oil change interval was never changed. I don't think that's relevant here, so I'm ignoring it for this discussion) He didn't mention what the logged events were. They read the DPF status and it said "regen needed highest level" Soot load is at 100G (I don't know what the G means, but it's a unit of measure). They said normal load is 30G. So, this all makes sense, sort of. The soot was building up at the DPF causing a high differential pressure, and eventually the ECU saying it needs a regen. As far as I know, this is what it's supposed to do. It looks like there was a small leak at the air pressure hose on the inlet side of the DPF. The line is a little loose, so I'm sure a little air got out of there, setting that code (J1209-4). BUT - even if it had a leak, that air pressure was building. So much that it unseated other exhaust unions. The "high differential pressure" event shows the ECU knows soot is building up. Along with the "regen needed - highest level" on the DPF status. The $10K question is, why didn't a regen happen, or did it happen and it didn't work? Shouldn't the machine go into regen by itself, when it sees these events? OR, did it actually try a regen, and it failed? That's really the core issue here. Is the root cause that the DPF didn't respond to a regen, and needs to be replaced, or did the ECU not even attempt a regen, and the root cause is more that process and not the DPF at all? Since my report didn't include any log information, I asked the shop for a more detailed report, and am waiting for a response. I would assume if the ECU did a regen, or at least tried to to a regen and failed, that would be logged. Man, I need to get the software. I dropped the ball on that a month or two ago, and I really need to pick it back up, and run with it. I can't get the OEM stuff, but I can get TEXA. I'm in denial about it I guess
I don't know any specifics on this engine. All I know is generalities. There should be a catalyst right ahead of the DPF. When the engine wants to regen it pumps raw fuel into the catalyst which combusts and gets the DPF hotter than blazes. Then all the soot is supposed to turn to ash. But the catalyst can be poisoned by an engine with poor oil control. Also if for injectors or some other reason the engine is blowing soot. Nothing will ever work right. These systems are totally dependent on an engine that runs perfectly clean in the first place. Any smoke or slobber and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. The great part is that the filter masks what you can see by eye so you are left guessing.
The DOC is directly in front of the DPF, you're right. I'm only assuming that thing is doing it's job - I have no way to check. I'm also assuming that the ECU injects fuel into the DOC / DPF via simply making the engine injectors super rich, and hoping that fuel makes it into the filter. I don't see a fuel line going to the filter. I see 2 igniters (assuming that's what they are) and 2 air lines (pre and post DPF). Those are supposedly the lines that go to the differential pressure sensor. According to Diesel Forward, there is no indication the engine is running dirty. The more I read about this, the more I find tons of people out there fighting the same fight I am. What a horrible system that allows the whole engine to go to hell in a handbasket if it's not perfect in every way.
Some engines inject fuel on the exhaust stroke, and some have a diesel injector in the exhaust pipe. I don't think there is any other way to do it. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I don't have any experience with this stuff on a self repair level. They were all still under warranty when I quit working with trucks. And even the manufacturers could not figure it out. Drive it a hundred miles to their shop, they would put it on a computer and do a forced regen, drive it back and the same problems over again. They don't like to show you what they did if it is a warranty job. So it got bad enough I would tell them to fax us the work order before we came to pick it up. If it said something like "performed forced regen" and they did no other work I would tell them to get out some tools and actually fix the problem not just hook a computer up to it, before we came to get it.
The saga continues. I sent the DPF off for cleaning again, and spoke to the diesel shop. The logs indicated the machine asked for a regen in the neighborhood of 10 times, until it just went into derate. So, the operator ignored the machine, run it until it died, and came back to me. Again, this is no surprise. So I took the DOC / DPF off again, and sent it to the shop in DesMoines who cleaned it originally, and they said that it was uncleanable. Damaged beyond repair, must replace, no option etc etc. OK, fine just send it back. I got it back, and here's what I did with it: I believe I may have actually cleaned it out. It was 100% plugged before, and now, it's significantly more free - breathing. Some of those cells are still clogged, but lots of them are clear. Maybe just maybe if I can make it do a regen, it'll clean itself out, and we're off and running. MAYBE. But, since they ran that engine for so long at full throttle, and that DPF plugged, the intercooler is full of oil from the engine trying to breathe through the turbo, and sucking oil from the seal. So there's that to clean, and now It's burping and farting and spewing out white smoke - classic injector failure (most likely a clogged nozzle). So I have that too. I have to fix those other 2 issues before I'll even try a regen. Stay tuned
Luckily we only have 1 Tier 4 machine, the rest are a tear in ya eye
There are also several videos of reverse flushing with a pressure washer. From what I can gather it works even better than burning because it actually carries away the unburnable ash as well as the burnable soot. But not a lot of good data on it yet.
I saw that, and I was going to give that a try (and still might), but I just can't overlook the opportunity to use fire first
In my experience cleaning things water beats air [fire] every time. What would be really interesting is to see if you could get some kind of tiny brush up in the tubes, because a brush seems to beat just water being sprayed even by high pressure. But that might be taking it too far.
Here's a thought … If you get the DPF substrate hot enough to burn the carbon. Use the torch to blow pure O2. Naturally, keep the O2 away from any metal parts. Pure O2 and hot carbon should burn away. Disclaimer: I have no idea of the risks and hazards of this suggestion. Might be a spectacular fireworks show.
We did the pressure washing on 1. It has worked well for the past 6 months. Saved us 4k for a filter.
Betcha you had a nose fulla black boogers after that adventure! We're from the government, we're here to help you!
Regen does not start because the ECU determines it need an engine oil change. Do an oil-life reset (manual reset so the ECU believes engine oil has been changed). Then restart the machine, let coolant temperature reach certain degrees then regen can automatically start.
Local contractor has three tier 4 units on Lease, they fail they return to dealer, he has no intention of buying anything at this point and will roll leases to next new machines. Dealer remains responsible for all repairs and lost time delays.
I've not seen any lease that included basic maintenance and repairs. Most that I have been involved in usually have specific terms that even exclude warranty coverage. Even the long term rental contracts that I've seen require the renter to perform the maintenance. Basically you get to use the machine and make payments with direct expense tax write offs for the same types of repairs with no ownership and no equity in the capital goods. You still get all the head aches that come with ownership.
Somehow the local does base maintenance, all warranty or hard not operator fault repairs are done by dealer. Go figure. Have a 755 series less than year old been back to dealer three times, always get a replacement and dealer has eaten all costs so far.
That sounds like a guaranteed cost of operation contract. The owner or lessor has to pay extra for that and it is figured by the number of hours the machine is worked. It's not a bad way to go for new models of machines if your customer base or product can absorb the added cost. The problem is that it only covers so much cost. After it goes over the base range, then the costs are usually shared. I've never found that what we were producing, in most cases coal or trees, had enough profit to risk those types of plans.
Deere replacing Cat on several machines, may have done this just to get back in good graces.
My county got three new dump trucks, and supposedly they have a bumper to bumper warranty, because they were having so much trouble with their new trucks- always back to the dealer. It cost extra, and I'm not sure if its a purchase with buyback, or a lease or a rental, but I remember him saying it was for three years only, and they don't own the trucks at the end. Of course that's a gov't entity, and while they have a budget, they don't have to show a profit......
I thought I had updated this thread with the final outcome. I hate it when people don’t. Yeah I’m one of those. Maybe I started another thread about it. I can’t remember. So... this was a year ago, so some details are a little foggy but here’s what happened. I was never able to clean the DOC / DPF enough to get it to do a regen. Even after my “cleaning” the differential pressures were too much, and you couldn’t even force a regen, which seems like a stupid feature. I didn’t have EST at that time, so I took it to a local diesel shop to get them to force a regen, and they couldn’t either. Joe you’re right about the oil life. That was, if I remember correctly, why it wouldn’t regen in the first place. After the turbo sent oil all through the engine, I put in all new stuff, along with the theoretically “clean” DOC/DPF and sent it to the diesel shop the first time for reset / regen and they reset the oil life and couldn’t do a regen then. That was the first time I sent it there. After the second time, and still nothing, I did get my own EST so I didn’t have to send it there anymore. So, after the second time there , with a supposedly clean DOC / DPF, I got my own EST, and could not get it done either. So, we were left with replacing the aftertreatment, which was something to the tune of 15 grand. My customer didn’t go for that. What he decided to do was reprogram the ECU to eliminate the aftertreatment system altogether. I tried like hell to get him to forget about that option, but he was decided. So the ECU came out, was shipped off for reflashing, and I took off the DOC/DPF and fabricated up regular muffler. That’s how the machine is still running today. Actually is running well. If he ever gets a state or federal job where he’s supposed to have tier 4, he better not have that machine on site. He’s gonna have trouble. This was a total CF, all brought on by a failed turbo, and operators who ignored the regen needed lights on the annunciator panel. Yikes. I’m glad it’s over.
Freightliner does have a warranty you have to ask for or buy, most dealers don't say anything about.
It has been my experience that Regen will not complete if there are any other active engine codes. Those must be resolved first, even something as simple as a coolant level code 111.
Newer electronics dependent systems are too tender. Somehow there has to come a in between or the entire hydrocarbon driven economics will die and so too much of our given Living economy with it.
On the whole I don't see the current impetus to more electronics doing anything but getting more involved in every facet of living. DEF is normal now and I've haven't been hearing of the same types and amounts of problems as I did when I left employment of a Cat dealer. I've looked at machines only three years old with 15,000 and more hours with no harness issues and few sensor issues. I've looked at and worked on 40 year old hydraulic excavators and had more issues with hard parts than any of the electronics. Telematics are becoming normal so monitoring operations by highly trained personnel are becoming common place. The biggest failure now days is in operators, service department personnel and parts supply. There is a reason memory functions are part of the electronics now. More DPF modules are killed by operators bypassing regen than any other reason. With the addition of DEF, the regen cycles are becoming somewhat of an after thought now days.
I agree with John on the rest of the issues becoming real issues. Took a CTL in to Cat, as I decided to have them do a scheduled maintenance, and change the oil. Busy on my end, figured I'd splurge and not get my hands dirty. Took 5 days before I could finally get somebody to tell me it was ready for pick up. Yes- one guy on vacation, but the whole system shouldn't shut down. Picked it up, got invoice in the mail 2 weeks later. Seems they didn't even change the oil, as it isn't normally on that interval. But didn't mind at all observing the fuel lift pump was out and replacing it, at my dime, without saying a word about it to me. I had been dealing with one of their smaller stores, and tried the Corporate Office shop hoping things were better. Nope. I work in an RV repair shop, and if we treated our customers like that we'd be toast in a year. But they are opening a new location next month. So apparently it works for them. On Edit- Didn't mean to go this far off topic. Sorry.
What EST did you purchase? My buddy has a texa and he has 1 hr of talking to them and updated thru them before he can use it on most all equipment this stuff is bad for the Indy shops more than anyone knows and the contractors and owners will not pay the price for this stuff.. how can you charge off a 10000$ tester on 1 or 2 jobs a month?????? we are both out of the military and can fix them as nobody supports the LMTV or ALLISON transmission in these trucks so we have a computer to fix them.... He says he is just going to fix Ex Army trucks that the fire depts get and see how it goes-- Me i just try and help with electrical as im old and Retired!
where did he get the reflash? here in the deep south texas..most pickups and trucks are this way as downtime cannot happen
It was EST2015, and I used a Chinese knockoff cat comm reader. It works fine for this one customer. He's the only one I have with a Perkins. I can't afford Texa or Diesel Laptops or any of those others. I sure as hell can't afford the "right software" - probably can't even get it, I'm a small time independent. Since this thread, Ive had 2 or 3 other customers approach me to maintain their tier 4 stuff, and I turned em away, because I don't want to get involved with software and crap like that. I know - thats how things are going, but I'm 50, and too old too small time to make that kind of investment. To answer your other question, I sent the ECU to England to get it reflashed. It took about 4 weeks, and cost about 5 grand. All in all the guy spent just as much for me to delete the aftertreatment as it would have cost to just do it right. Not to mention, he now has some b*****d version of a machine that probably has much less resale value. So, from my rather limited perspective - I would not recommend doing that again.
WOW thanks for that information will check this out more we cannot afford it either i run Auto Enguinty for all fords as that is what i like to repair---Diesels
Around here emission system for diesel pickups have become a midnight commodity. Ag fertilizer company had a brand new 450 ford with less than a 1000 miles on it stripped of it's total emission system. Cut the pipes, unplugged the harness, def- the whole system gone-$12,000 to replace. And that's not the first one.
on a yard right next to my house they got 2 systems off fords i was gone hunting and didnt hear a thing.. boldness with big lights and side road with traffic we got game cameras all over 14' high now!
Big items here are the SCR Converters for the DEF systems for precious metals and Newer DPF units they can sell to the herders.
I have been kicking around getting some Deere software and hardware since lots of my customers have them. Asked a couple local mechanics and they do not have the Deere stuff. I wonder if we should buy it and then hire ourselves out should someone else need Deere assistance.
May want to see what can get Local wrenches here cannot get what thwy need from aftermarket software companies to do them any good on Deere and CNH “Proprietary” is the excuse