Hi, i have a 3 cylinder Deutz F3L 1011F in a dumper. The other day it went into run-away and i couldn't stop it, lots of white smoke but eventually stopped. Since then i've drained the oil to find lots of diesel in it. If i drain some out of the oil sump i can run it for a little while but lots of diesel getting in the engine. Any suggestions where i should be looking? Found a common fault is the injector pumps leaking. Does this sound a good place to start? I've read they are timed up with the fuel rack. Can anyone explain how i remove the injector pump's to have them checked, and put them back in the right way please? Seen a timing pin mentioned that goes in a bolt hole near the injector pumps, just can't find specifically how to do it. don't want to take it apart and not be able to get it back timed up again? Thanks in advance.
I think this is what you are referring to . Please attach a pic of your engine, I might be able to help more. I have never known a D3 to power a truck . If your runaway died on its own , without running out of fuel or oil, I'd really want to investigate further
I'm afraid these are the only photos i have at the moment. Its only a small 1T dumper. I'll get the injector pumps tested, i'm just unsure how to remove/refit the injector pumps correctly, so they're still timed with the fuel rack etc. The document you added looks helpful thanks.
Photos included
Please read the previous reply attachment.
Check the supply pump 1st. U see that lone 10mm bolt between the 2 injectors.?? Thats where u pin the control rack to pull & install the injectors.. BE VERY CAREFUL.!!! if your off just a little bit & tighten the pumps down & miss the control rack hole, it'll bend the control rack & you'll hafta pull the engine down to fix/replace it.. SO.. check the supply pump 1st..
Hi I am hoping someone can advise me. I have a genie scissor lift with a deutz 1011. original problem was a no start. Then a non deutz diesel mechanic tried to get it running. He pulled out all the injector pumps and had them all serviced - he said one was stuck. After he reinstalled them he placed the injector pump pins in the B slot-(see photo) and the engine started but revved very highly and we had a runaway situation. Managed to stop it by blocking the intake. After reading info here and other places, I advised him to put the pin into position A- which was the original position. But again the motor wouldnt start. He says its not even priming the injectors; I am wondering now whether the runaway could be due to a pickup pump leaking oil into the crankcase. I dont really understand how this occurs, but I have read it is a possibility. The mechanic remarked that the oil level had gone down quite a bit and he didnt understand why. Could this be connected to the problem? Any thoughts gratefully appreciated
The pump rack definitely goes in A position.. If your rack is stuck, that could b the problem.. The engine rack must b checked for freedom of movement after each pump is installed.. If this unit has an electric shutdown solenoid on it.?? THAT could be the problem also.. remove it and put the pumps in.. BUT.. more than likely, when he put them in the other position, it bent the engine control rack, hence the run away..
I would speculate that he dropped one of the pins on the control rack and bent it. With pumps out one at a time and the fuel shut off removed, you should be able to work the rack back and forth easily with light finger pressure. If you have to use a tool to pry it, its probably bent. When I replace pumps, I use a small screwdriver where the lock pin goes. I exercise the rack from side to side or I push in on the rack from the where the shut off hits it. It should always be very loose, no bind. Good luck.
Man, pumpguy a much quicker type outer than me. BTW happy Thanksgiving bud
Thanks for confirming the position. He tells me that the fuel rack is moving freely so based on that , the rack hasnt been bent. In which direction does the rack get bent? Is it bent vertically- ie as the pumps are tightened down into the block, the pin contacts the rack in an area where there is no slot, and so bends it downwards? or have I got this wrong? The mechanic , tells me that he put the pin in position B which is another "slot" but not as deep. Could it be that he jammed the pin in this shallower slot and prevented the rack from moving freely without bending it? I was watching when he tightened the pumps down and they were tightened down flat with the block. he also commented that the pumps were slightly offset when in position B, probably to facilitate the shallower slot? Am i making sense? Regarding the solenoid, that was the very first thing that we tried before any pumps were removed. but it made no difference and there was no fuel coming out of the injector pumps. Complete no start. Our next step was to take the pumps out and get them serviced , reportedly one was "stuck". It was only after they were serviced and replaced in position B that the runaway started. The oil level had declined which suggests to me that the oil somehow is being used as a secondary fuel source causing the runaway, but thats just me a novice speculating.
I think I am going to ask him to confirm this looseness in the rack. thanks for your input
There should be access to the engine rack thru the hole he used to pin the rack..?? Insert a small screwdriver or pick to see if he can move it .. There may be a small plate on the front of the engine, in-line w the engines control rack.. Remove the plate for access to the rack.?? I always started w the hardest 1 first..that would b back by the firewall.. drop it in, tighten it down, THEN pull/ push on the rack to check freedom of movement, then on to the next..repeating the action. I’ve had 2 in my career that had bent racks.. ( before coming to me) The bend was on the end pump, fan side & 1 was in the middleman pump.. The rack is made from a very flimsy “pot metal”..& once it’s bent, it stays bent.. I’ve tried to bend it back in shape per customer request once.. The lead time was several weeks on a new rack & gaskets and he needed his machine.. I patched it for him, the rpms were very slow but he didn’t care.. as long as it didn’t run away and he could shut it off was all he wanted.. until the new parts arrived.. It was a chore, that’s for sure.. Putting in 1 pump @ a time, checking the rack movement, putting in the next pump, having it lock up the rack, pulling it back out, twisting the rack w vise grips and doing that over & over again..
Once again thanks for everyones advice. I have opened the hole for the rack pin, and tried to move the rack with all 4 pumps still in place. It doesnt seem to move. Should it move with all 4 pumps installed in position A? I cannot see any plate for removal . I have also removed the solenoid and I think I can visualise the end of the Rack= is that the end of it visible through the solenoid opening? i have tried to move it but again its very stiff. I tried to see what happens when I use a wrench to move the crank , but it doesnt seem to move. Next step is to take the pumps out again and see if the rack can be moved through the pump opening
So update. The rack was definitely binding with all 4 pumps in as installed by the french mechanic. I took each one out one by one starting with the RHS and moving left. The first 2 were sitting quite passively and didn't pop up after removing the nuts. The other 2 seemed to pop up a bit , upon release of the nuts. I checked the rack carefully after removing 1 and 2 pumps and it was binding. I then decided to remove 3 and 4 at the same time. After all 4 pumps were removed the rack to my surprise moved quite freely and sprang back . There was only a light bind if the rack was pushed to the right of its spring back position to my amateur eyes, that rack is behaving pretty normally, as if it hasnt been damaged
I'm gonna ask if you could post a pic of the pumps, as you removed them. There's a lock wire installed for shipping purposes and must be removed before starting. I'm wondering if one or all were left in.
video shows the 2 pumps that wont go back in. Excuse the dust on them, the dog liked the blanket they were lying on!
They'll go in, they're probably just out of time. You have to compress the plunger to free the rack pin. Try and get them evened up with the ones that go in. Just don't force anything.
The rack pins are rotating freely on the pumps. I have tried rotating them a little each way, and they just won't slot in. I have tried lining them up with the slot , and even used the screwdriver in the rack pinhole to jiggle the rack from side to side. Is there something that I am misunderstanding?
Typically, those pins are very stiff to rotate on the body without compressing that plunger. Are they all the same part number? They should be dropping right in, especially with you moving the rack side to side. Maybe pumpguy will join in .
I must admit I am confused now. There seems to be 2 types of rotation possible for the pin . As shown in the first video below. The pin rotates a little stiffly to start, and then it suddenly rotates much more freely Then it can be rotated with the spring quite freely- 2nd video. Finally it rotates quite stiffly, if i hold the pin and rotate the bottom of the spring- 3rd video. The 4 pumps are identical video 1 video 2 video 3
The pumps have all been taken out and are all Bosch . Number 1 and 3 pumps install ok 2 and 4 seem blocked out; I tried both 2 and 4 pumps in the 1 and 3 ports, and they both go in no problem- so all 4 pumps will install into ports 1 and 3 None of the 4 pumps will install into ports 2 or 4 . So it looks like there is a difference between the 1 + 3 and 2 + 4 ports. Manual inspection and I cant see any difference. Next is to investigate a path of insertion issue. he replaced the mounting bolts with much longer ones. Going to take out the bolts for 2+4 to see if they insert .
Roll the crank 1 revolution and retry. The cam lobes are probably high
EXACTLY RIGHT FWF..
yes thankyou both . i actually figured this out myself. I feel a bit stupid- should have realised earlier. So all 4 pumps are back in, and I checked for free movement of the rack after each pump was installed and all was good, the last one in was number 3, which initially was binding, but I easily freed it. It seemed like just a little bit of friction rather than an actual locked bar. I have left it for now and will try to restart in the morning. Having a mini celebration with one of my favorite beers
Now that all 4 pumps have been installed, one at a time and with confirmation that the rack moves freely, I have bled the fuel through and unfortunately the number 4 inj pump refuses to pump. it gave an initial spurt then nothing. These were all sent off for checking last week, and came back all ok.
Remove that pump , place something you can observe on top of the cam follower. Make sure you have a lobe to push that plunger up and down. If the cam is good, then someone didn't properly check the pump. In my opinion based on everything you've posted.
By the cam follower, I am guessing that you mean this?
Yes
Why not re-bleed it.?? MAKE SURE its getting fuel instead of air..
.I had assumed that if the other 3 pumps were squirting fuel that they would be all ,not so? I will try rebleeding # 4 tomorrow
so i should put something like a piece of poly pipe on top and watch to see if it moves up and down?
That would work, try pumpguys advice first.
OK tried PG's advise and re-bled- no problems with fuel. So I took the #4 pump out and turned the crankshaft- the cam follower is moving So it looks like pump #4 is probably the culprit right? This would explain the no start? Or just not running smoothly with only 3 injectors getting fuel? I know that the engine will start when the pumps are installed with the pins in position B (that was when we had the runaway problem) So is pump 4 significant enough on its own to prevent a start? Obviously the pump has to be fixed, but I am still wondering if there is a setting or something on the pumps that is preventing a start.
That engine IS NOT TURNING fast enough to start, PERIOD.!! U should leave # 4 pump alone for the time being & focus on the cranking problem..!! Don’t those pumps have an eccentric mounting flange hole?? Meaning u can turn them slightly left or right.?? How about shiming.?? Did they have shims under the pumps when u took them out.??
Haha yes the battery needs help. Its been cranking a lot. I have a booster that helps. Yes they have eccentric holes and the shims are still in place. Qu why is it important to keep the pumps in their original hole? Is there a setting that has been calibrated for each pump? Is that what the shims do? At the moment they all have 1 shim that appears to be identical under each pump. qu why not swap out one of the other pumps and put it in # 4 hole and see if it pumps. This would diagnose the pump as the problem? or have I got this wrong
Whoa, whoa, whoa! First thing first. Remove the injectors and see if you have compression. That runaway with improperly shimmed pumps may have hurt your pistons. The shims establish your injection timing. If you were advanced too much, the piston crown may have been hurt. Maybe. There is a procedure for measuring plunger depth and subtracting the desired height stamped on the pump body. It really depends on which generation and applications.
qu why would the pumps be incorrectly shimed? They were taken out , marked 1,2,3,4 and the shims were kept in place. The runaway happened when he re-installed the pumps (in correct original sequence) with the pin in position B. If he replaced the pumps in the original holes, with the original shims, then everything should be ok shouldnt it? He hasnt changed the height of the pump relative to the cam follower. Having said that , I remember he pulled # 4 pump out after the runaway and it had to be reassembled- something had come loose. Coincidence? Also, If he had installed the pins in position B, it could be that the fuel rack was PINCHING the fuel rail ? (see pic below) I assume that this could lead to the fuel being constantly supplied rather than pulsing . I dont think he tightened the pins down ON TOP of the fuel rail as has been suggested ., and this would be supported by the fact that the fuel rail seems to move quite freely; Sorry about the number of questions, but I am struggling to understand this engine, and dont really want to let him loose on the engine again if he has done damage.
The oblong holes allow for changes in fuel delivery to that cylinder.. U should be able to find a slash mark on the pump and block.. Yes u can swap the pumps around to determine if it’s a bad pump.. At this point it doesn’t matter.. you’ve already sent them out without marking them or tieing the shim to each one..
Re the pumps- no they were sent out marked. He was very careful about that, the shims stayed on the block. So neither the pumps nor their shims were mixed up Re the oblong holes (B). I thought the pin on the pump was meant to go into A not B. When would B be used? Sorry I am having a mental block here
No, no . Pumpguy is referencing the holes where the pumps are secured onto the studs. Some pumps set down on studs and shims and cannot rotate in the bore, the holes fit the stud. Others, the mounting hole is oblong so that the pump can be rotated in the bore. This gives a small window of adjustment in relation to throttle position. I hope this clears things up.
Yesterday I tested no 3 and 4 pumps by swapping their bore positions. Neither of them pumped, so 3 that was working, would not pump in the bore for number 4. So i swapped them back, and again 3 started pumping but 4 would not. Could that suggest that there is a problem with position number 4? The cam follower certainly moves when the engine is cranked..... I examined pump number 4 and noticed that the pin movement was a bit stiffer compared to the other 3 pumps. I wouldnt have thought that it was stiff enough to interfere with its movement once bolted down though. And if it is engaged in the pin slot A then the other pumps would not be pumping if this stiffness was interfering, and locking the rack. So i dont think this stiffness is relevant i also tried rotating the pump number 4 in the oblong holes, but the rigidity of the fuel pipe would not let me do this. The fuel nut just wouldnt engage with the pump in this new position. Is there anything simple I can do to test the pump on the bench? I am thinking that it needs to be sent off to another person to have it re checked
Have u checked fuel delivery TO #4.?? Is your #4 at the beginning of the fuel flow from the supply pump or at the end.? If it’s at the end, that’s what makes me think it’s air.. The stiffness u feel is deceptive.. Push on the bottom of the pump slightly and move the rack.. it should be free.. there’s a preload on the pump when u bolt it down.. it never reaches full spring relaxation.. U know how it works, so lock it in a vise, rig up something to feed it fuel & push on the bottom.. But, you’ll have to figure out which way is pump & which way is stop.. Btw>> those pumps aren’t rebuildable.. you just buy a new pump.. get the Bosch 10 digit # off the name plate & start your search.
Yes they have been bled right across the fuel pipe. #4 pump is actually closest to the pick up pump which is on the rhs on this motor . Sorry for the confusion, the pumps were numbered from left to right. "Push on the bottom of the pump slightly and move the rack.. it should be free.. there’s a preload on the pump when u bolt it down.. it never reaches full spring relaxation.." OK. Thanks. Just to be clear though, I have been referring to the rack as the metal rod with notches joining and timing the pumps. Thanks for the tip on the pump in vice.
Yeah, sorry.. sometimes I forget not everyone has 30 years of injection pump experience.. lol I was referring to the pump rack/slider.. U can push on top of the pump to give it a smidge of preload on the work bench.. & move the slider left & right to see if it frees up.. Good luck
no luck in the vice for either pump 3 or 4. couldnt get a squirt out of either of them. I have ordered a new pump to replace 4 which seems to be a continual problem.
This problem is confusing. I have replaced pump #4 with a brand new bosch pump- all numbers matched including the Deutz oem number. After I installed it , it simply did not pump. After hours of checking and unbolting etc, I got it finally to pump, but # 3 stopped pumping! In frustration, I decided to change direction, I removed all the injectors, and using the existing pipes, I connected them to the pumps to see if the injectors worked. They all spray fine but only when connected to pump # 1- which is at the end of the fuel line before it goes into the return line. So despite the pumps 2 and 4 visually confirmed to be pumping, they refuse to allow the injectors to spray. I guess that means a pressure problem coming out of these 2 pumps -2 and 4 ( 3 doesnt even spurt). Could it be that there is a problem with the pickup pump, not providing enough fuel to all 4 pumps? This doesnt make sense though, because the one pump that does work is the furthest from the pickup pump. Or is it a multiple pump problem- including the new one just purchased? The odds of this are fairly remote. Next step will be to try one of the other pumps in Bore # 1 to see if they can operate the injectors This video shows 3 pumps spurting, the far left one is the # 1 and allows the injectors to spray. This shows the injector working well in bore #1 Any suggestions would be gratefully received
I thought we covered the inlet pressure.?? It should be over 14.5 psi. at the last pump.. Have u found the overflow valve in the last pump.?? It should be a double banjo bolt.. that holds pressure in the fuel rail that jumps from pump to pump.. But, u need the fuel going to the rail before it can hold it.. I thought u said u replaced the supply pump.??
No I havent replaced the supply pump. Could it be pumping plenty of fuel when bleeding the lines but then fail under load? Its definitely got plenty of flow. The curious thing is that the last pump ie far left is able to pressurise enough to give a good spray pattern with the injector ( see video above) Does it make sense that the injector pumps before it, arent getting enough fuel? I dont know anything about the overflow valve on the last pump. As far as I can see all the pumps are the same. I dont see any double banjo bolt either. i will take a photo tomorrow for you to see
There HAS TO BE some kind of pressure valve to hold fuel pressure in the jumper line.. It’s always located on the last injection pump.. Remove ALL the banjo bolts and try to find the one that has either a small orifice or a spring & ball.. It should b stamped “out” on top of it.. I can’t blow your video up hi enough to see how the last pump is connected.. “Normally” they have a long/double spring loaded banjo bolt .. it connects the jumper tube AND the return to the tank/injector tube..
On the last pump, is the fuel manifold on top of or beneath the return banjo. The image in page 1 reply 4 that you posted shows the manifold on the pump and the return line on top of the manifold. Is it still configured that way? In the video, it appears the opposite.
Many thanks for those 2 replies. I am going to check the banjo bolts- which could quite easily have been mixed up because I was not aware of any differences between them. I enclose some pics below of the last pump and the way it is connected ; It has been connected that way since I have had the machine. The tube at the end of pump 1 goes up to connect with the return fuel line that T's off from the injector overflows
I removed all 4 banjo bolts. They are identical. There is no spring and ball. Could it have fallen out when the original guy removed them? There is no sign . There is nothing stamped on top. Here is a vid of all 4
I would think THATS the problem then.?? Comparing all the bb’s, to each other, is there 1 that’s newer/shiner that the others.?? (replaced) How about using a pair of vice grips on the cloth return hose.. just to keep fuel pressure in the jumper line..& try to get fuel from all the pumps.. THEN hook them to the injectors.. good luck, I hope we found it..
I have a good look online and cannot see any Banjo bolt to fit the Bosch injector pump that involves any spring or reduced hole etc. Do they have a specific name? I am going to try with the vice grips this morning.
Now u have me wondering if the reduced line size from the fuel jumper line to the return is enough to create the pressure necessary to allow the pumps to pump.?? BUT.. then that goes back to the supply pump, weather it’s up to the task of filling the jumper line before it dumps to the return.?? The vise grip test should show THAT.. BE CAREFUL if u still have the injectors out.. If your standing near the injectors and it starts pumping, your liable to get sprayed..?? THEN ITS A HOSPITAL STAY FOR CHRISTMAS.!!
First a question. Do the banjo bolt internal exit holes have to be aligned with the direction of fuel? I marked the direction of the top holes to align with the pipe. But often when they are 'tight' the marking doesnt align with the pipe direction. could this be chocking off the supply? So i closed down the return line and got a mixed result. Pump 4 the new one, closest to the supply line looked to be spurting well. Number 2 didnt spurt as well as 4 and the others did nothing. I have ordered a new fuel pump; The curious thing is that putting the injector onto pump 4 go no spray.
Are you 100% sure the pin is engaged in the rack.
It doesn’t matter which way the b bolts r turned.. U can’t tell ANYTHING with the engine turning that slow.. If u change anything, u have to verify your results w the engine turning very fast.. It might b helpful to remove ALL the injectors, just to get it spinning fast enough to verify any changes. Besides, u don’t need the injectors until you get the pumps pumping..
That’s what I was thinking FWF.!! And is the shut off solenoid out of the picture.?? Can u STILL move the engine control rack thru the solenoid hole.?? Regardless, it still has to turn more than 2 revolutions to check ANYTHING.!!
pump 4? Well i cant be 100% sure, but I have lined it up pretty carefully and there is fuel spurting. The other pumps arent pumping like 4 is, so i assume 4 is engaged. The solenoid is out and was always out, as it was the first thing i thought of. The control rack moves freely to the left then springs back when i push on it thru the solenoid hole. I will try with the injectors out again and see if the pumps work any better. I am also waiting for the new fuel pump from germany. Any tips for ensuring the pin is engaged? Once again thanks to you both for your help
I have the same question and no one seemed to address this. We had a fuel injection pump go out on a F4L 1011F engine. We have another engine that threw a rod, so we used an injection pump from that motor on the same cylinder without swapping shims (so we didn't get a new fuel injection pump with a locking wire already installed). We no longer have a dead cylinder with the swapped pump, but it wasn't running smoothly. We bought the fuel control rod/rack locking pin. There seems like two holes in the rack that are close, but the pin would only fit when the rack was pulled against the spring (while the fuel cutoff set to off). We have a rod (the German manual with English translation calls it a "locking wire") down the injection pump hole after removing the "blanking pin". We didn't buy this, we just had a metal rod that fits the hole perfectly. It seems like we can put that rod on either side of the injection pump's control lever/rod, but even then, it doesn't really lock completely (there's a little play). Is that "locking wire" supposed to be on one the side of a control rod? There's no hole or other way to lock it that I see (that pin doesn't seem hollow). We could only fit the injection pump control lever/rod on the rack with injection pump "timing wire" on one side of the control rod. When we did that, it ran at full rev, without the white smoke we were getting, but we had to choke it to stop it. When doing it this way, it seemed like the fuel injection pump was rotated as far counter-clockwise as that oblong bolt hole would allow. The fuel injection pump that we didn't touch seemed to be almost fully clockwise. We redid all the pumps with the "locking wire" on the other side of the injection pump control rod without the rack locking pin and tried inserting them with the rack at its resting spot. We can shutoff the engine, now, but it seems like the pumps aren't in sync and it's not running smooth, again. It seems obvious that they need to be aligned more precisely. Long story short, can someone describe how to "Before fitting injection pump, make sure that locking wire is engaged in control lever" as it says on page 320/321 of this document? From the diagram they show, it kind of seems like the wire is straight over the control lever, and not on one side of it. Deutz 1011F manual in German, French, and English with steps to fully overhaul the engine ... but without the finest details https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sDEdkpwHxLebbDxnrioitolrpMYC90eF/view
I found a thread from a few years ago that has shown me at least one thing we did wrong: HeavyEquipmentForums The original engine's injection pump is a Bosch with a gold plate. That color doesn't match funwithfuel's chart for Deutz injection pumps, but since it's not a turbo engine, I'm guessing it's naturally aspirated without white smoke kit (which is black for Deutz pump)? The injection pump we pulled from another engine has a blue plate, so that means it's for a non-turbo with smoke kit. So mixing these pumps seems like a no-no. I noticed a slightly different smoke color on our cylinder with the different pump, and now I have a good guess why. Also, funwithfuel posted how to figure out the X or required installation depth from a name plate, but it was for Deutz name plates. Is it possible that the gold plate has an X = 8125 and the blue plate is 9570? If we order another pump, I want to know what these numbers mean. The guys on ebay selling these don't have more info than "for a 1011 deutz".