I have a 98' Bobcat with a Deutz diesel. I only purchased the machine a month ago. I didn't know any previous maintenance so I took the machine to the nearest dealer to have the timing belt replaced just in case. The machine has 4554 hrs on it. The dealer replaced the timing belt and sent it out the door. I picked it up and went home. When I got home I started the machine and let it idle while I unchained. While unchaining the machine died. I took it back to the dealer and they say the camshaft is locked up. Looks like it's my fault and problem. Any ideas or suggestions?
Tell them to have their mechanic to actually show you the cam is locked up.
He put a wrench on it and showed me it wouldn't turn. I'm questioning how it ran fine when I dropped it off then they put a new timing belt in it and I loaded it but never got it back off the trailer before the cam went out. Is there anything they could have messed up? I have heard rumor about there being an adjustment pin or some sort of adjustment they have to make on the cam. Is that true?
Brother, you're in the worst position a person could find themselves in. Yes, the camshaft and crankshaft have to be timed together using timing pins. Could they have done something wrong? Who knows, now. Could coincidence just happen to make the cam lock up with such dubious timing? Yes. Even if they did do something wrong, you'll never be able to prove it. Even if you took the machine to a different shop, and they were able to determine a method the dealer did caused the failure, you'd be hard pressed to convince them because they weren't able to see what you found with it at another shop in someone elses hands. I've had folks ask me something like "what shop would you get to work on XXX. I say, none of them, I don't trust any of them". Seems like when bad things happen, it's always the customer who has to empty wallet. I have to ask, did you watch the mechanic try to turn the cam gear in both directions, CW and CCW?
it could be they put the belt on a tooth out and bent the push rods just a suggestion pull the muffler and valve cover and take a peak
Tim prior to this did it run fine ? If it locked the cam I assume it shreded the belt ? Like Atco said your in a bad spot to trying and point fingers ..I can hear them guys now "hey buddy you cranked it up and loaded it up it was runnin when it left here " The timing pins for this motor thread into holes in the block ..Did they use the Deutz pins or something that would work like a drill bit ???
The machine ran just fine when I took it in. When I got there to pick it up it was sitting outside running so I loaded it up and shut it off. I stopped at the fuel station about 10 minutes from home and fueled it up and then started it and drove home. It was running just fine when I got home, so I started unchaining it and then it died. I never even got it off the trailer. Do they have to pull the timing pins to put a new belt on? All it says on the work order is repair kit with a part number. Is there a possability that something locked up in one of the fuel pumps that would cause the cam to lock up?
There are plugs in the block that you take out and insert timing pins so that your valve timing is correct ...Install belt REMOVE the timing pins and put plugs back ..like i said prior alot of motors use this method for timing injection pumps and for valve adjustment ..If you dont have the right pin you can use drill bit or pick ..The key here is dont forget to take them out before running .. Just a thought ...Could the mechanic have used a drill bit instead of the Deutz pin and left it in the cam hole and fired it up ..Leaving a small piece of the bit turning in the hole ..hence after time it locks the cam up ?? just a thought ..
Unfortunately if he did they will probably never admit to it and like was said earlier I'll be the one with an empty wallet. They unloaded it with a payloader and are gonna look at it. So time will tell. The only prayer I have is that if they made a mistake that they will own up to it.
If the cam really did lock up it should have torn the lugs on the timing belt.
Yah it did ruin the new timing belt too. I stood there while he pulled the inspection cover off and I looked at the belt and then watched him turn the crank and the pulleys but the cam wouldn't turn.
that sucks..... unless you can prove any wrong doing on their part open your wallet. Was this repair done by a Bobcat dealer?
The repairs were done by a bobcat dealer.
Dont know what its like over there but in Aus you woud take it to court if need be. Thats a joke, it was clearly them doing something wrong. Nick
Well, ain't that some s@*!. I JUST dropped my perfectly running 863 off at the dealer to have the belt changed. Now I'll be praying that they know what their doing. You can bet that I'll run it around the lot before I load it up!!
Mechanic just called me and said the oil pump is locked up and keeping the cam from turning.
That opens up a can of worms! What caused the pump to lock up? I have never saw a oil pump just lock up unless it sucked in a foreign object...... like a chunk of metal, bolt, cam timing pin..... you get the picture. I have seen a few oil pump drives fail but never a pump just "lock up". With that being said how does the crankshaft and bearings look? How about the pistons and cylinder bores...... any scuffing? Camshafts operate with a light load compaired to a crankshaft assy.
Don't see that everyday. The oil pump is the most lubricated part of the engine innards as it's what pumps the oil. :beatsme
I'm hoping the oil pump has not disappeared because I want to take it apart and see what happened. The machine was idleing when it quit and I was standing right by the motor unchaining and when it died it just locked up and I heard oil running back down through the engine so I know it was pumping some. The mechanic hadn't found any engine damage when I talked to him and he said if he found any he would call. He ordered the oil pump and belt kit and it's suppose to be here tomarrow. So we should know by tomarrow night if it runs fine or not. I'm really curious if theres something in the oil pump or if a bearing went out.
Ok, I'm definitley playing armchair mechanic here...but something smells fishy. For the sake of the argument, let's assume oil pump lock up as the wrench said. I find it hard to believe the pump drive didn't rip out, instead of trashing cam belt, but I suppose that could happen. Again, don't see this everyday. But let's say the pump locked up, trashed cam belt, as soon as the cam quits turning the engine will die because valves are no longer part of the running process, valves are going to be in the position they were in when cam quit turning. The engine will die. But, even at idle, it will turn a couple of revolutions, maybe 1 or 2, before the crank stops turning. Well, typical problem with that Deutz engine, when you trash the cam belt, it will typically bend some valve pushrods because crank continues to turn until it dies. Granted, this typically happens when a user is operating machine, not at idle. So crank will turn several revs before it dies. But, even at idle, it will turn enough revs to bend at least one pushrod before it dies. I admit, this is a lot of armchair speculation. I'm only saying, if they're telling you only the oil pump lock up is the problem...I'm having trouble working with that. But we can't prove nothing here. Like I said previously...I don't trust any of them.
What Atco said +2. Also if the cam locked up there is damage to the cam bearings and maybe also the cam..... I dident see a cam or related parts on the parts list. Like Atco said...... I'm being a arm chair mechanic here.
Atco this aint just fishy its fish heads rolled in skunk spray !!! Tim my advice would be talk to the owner of the dealer, try to remain calm ..Explain to him this is just too coincidental I mean C'mon man ..Sometimes an unhappy customer is bad for business ...
Ok mechanic called me this afternoon and said the machine is done and I can come pick it up. I didn't ask about the oil pump, I just figure I'll take the old one with me and take it apart and see myself. He said that there was one push rod bent. So parts list was: timing belt kit, oil pump and 1 push rod. Now when we looked at it together right away the timing belt was still on the machine but the lugs where tore off around the crank so belt was ruined but still holding. He said when he took the belt off everything turned fine except the oil pump, it was locked. But he was worried about the motor turning over that tiny bit and bending a push rod or 2 so he recommended taking it apart and checking. He did and found one bent rod. So he replaced everything and said it ran fine. So the damage (as they see it) $754.XX for fixing it the first time. Then pump locked up and thats my fault too so the damage this time $1070.XX for a total of $1824.XX
Wow man that sucks!!! I would fight hard on that one even though not much chance of proving your point at this stage of the game. We've had two belts break on the duetz and both times it bent more than one push rod, although i guess one is possible.... maybe. I would definetely offer than them far less than their current bill (like the original $754 only!) if you feel it was their fault. Bad sitiuation just gotta stand your ground, if theres any to stand on!!! This explanation just doesnt sound right the more i read it though. Like motrack said theres about gotta be damage to the bearings also. But those belts are pretty notorious for breaking on there own with no help from other things breaking....... I dont know!!! Best of luck, let us know what happens!
Tim S, I do declare, you have probably the oddest engine failure occurance I believe I've ever heard of. Sorry to hear you've had this kind of trouble.
ATCO what you wanna bet it was the same Mechanic both times.And I think you know what I'm getting at.
There would be a number of things going through my head. Same wrench being one, mad as hell being another. I tell ya...I don't trust none of them.
timing belt and locked camshaft............hmmmmm it seems that the dealer has some explaining to do.....
Tim S.--I am sure hoping this wasn't the same dealership I took my bobcat in to have the short fixed. Everytime I would back up it blew a fuse...come to find out the fix was breaking the two microswitches so they wouldn't activate when I backed up. That cost me about $35. each to replace and then properly adjust the linkage to stop the shorting. (Went to another dealer to have it fixed right)
Well the dealership called other dealerships too, and they say that they've been informed that the Deutz engine in an 873 is known for going through oil pumps about every 3000 hours and should be replaced with the belt. They claim they go through bearings. The oil pump is an external pump that runs off the timing belt and pumps the oil for the engine and the cooling system. I picked the machine up and it runs fine again but my wallet is significantly lighter for the WHOLE amount unless I can PROVE that their mechanic did something wrong.
I still dont understant the whole "cam locked up" thing. If the cam was locked up and the mechanic showed you it was how did it suddenly free its self and everything be ok?
I have to agree with ya motrack. If it's an external pump driven by the timing belt, the how the hell did the mechanic show you the cam was locked up. :beatsme
When he pulled the timing cover off and we looked in the belt was still on but the lugs where tore off around the crank. I'm guessing thats why he was able to turn the crank. But the rest of the lugs where still holding so I'm assuming that by the oil pump being locked up that it was holding the cam from moving and he wasn't able to turn it. When he took the belt off then everything moved normal except the oil pump. So ultimately the cam was never locked up only the oil pump.
Excellent idea!
I mean...really? Helluva mechanic at that dealer, telling a customer he's got a locked up cam without digging in far enough to even be able to say that. Does he not realise, by saying cam is locked up, that he basically told you "sorry bud...but we gotta pull your engine and tear it down and wear your wallet slam out!" And you have to give the approval to "ok, I'll bend over" for them to proceed with the repair. I mean...really? Just damn!
This deal here was like tellin a plumber you dont have any water and he starts tearin out the kitchen sink .....:bash
I think you were bent over by the dealer...... JMHO.
Hey guys don't be to harf on him.I'm sure a lot of us has been down that road at least once.
I agree with the rest of the guys. The mechanic should have done a more thorough inspection before he even offered to tell you what was wrong. I hate to say this but I am not to familiar with the model of Bobcat you have. I am however certified on most models of the Deutz brand engines along with several other brands. And just from what you have described I think you have an oil cooled 1011 Deutz or a similar model in that machine. Let me know for sure because I have been wrong quite often. But If that is what you have believe it or not the dealer is kind of right about the oil pump. I would not go as far as to say those pumps fail almost every 3,000 hours but they do fail quite often. I myself have seen several of them do exactly what you are describing. Keep in mind that with this style of Deutz engine you have they are a very dependable engine, but unfortunately they do have a couple of week points. The major one is the timing belt. I can not begin to stress how important it is to follow the manufacturers recommended service interval on replacing the timing belt. And as you have seen the other week point is that oil pump. A big problem I have seen on these engines is the oil pump will fail or seize and when it does it kills the timing belt. But then after it cools down a lot of the time the pump will be able to turn again. Then the unknowing mechanic checks everything over and just thinks he has a failed belt. You can probably see where I am going with this. I have heard of guys putting on several belts before they catch on to what is happening. As a rule of thumb I always pull the oil pump and give it a through inspection anytime I know that the belt has been replaced when it should be and someone all of a sudden has a premature belt failure. By doing this you can bet that nine times out of ten I will find a bad oil pump. Don't get me wrong though belts do break sometimes, but most of the early breaks will have another cause. Also one more thing to remember on these engines is that you will not always have bent push rods with a belt failure. I have always preached to all of the guys that I train that those engines where built with a couple of different fail safes to protect against bent valves. The most common one is the push rods, and the other one is the rocker arm bolts. Always replace the rocker arm bolts when you have a timing belt failure. The bolts where designed to stretch or break when the belt fails if the push rods don't bend. They are not very expensive and you don't want them to hide and then let go when you need the machine the most!
Did you get to retain all of the damaged parts, even the timing belt? If you did then we can have a forensic look at it. I have rebuilt several larger Deutz engines (914's and the older V12's & V16's), and have been a certified Master Mechanic and engineer for over 25 years.
i have a 1999 jlg 40 h with 3cl diesil when operating drive it kicks in to high idle and throws the breaker then stays in high idle any suggestions on how to fix it ,could it just ber the joystick controller in the man basket or some kind of relay it only happens when driving not when using boom boom high idle goes up when using it and goes down when done,also replaced the timing belt on it and put belt on to tight now the oil pump began to leak and eventually just broke the shaft off could you send me picture or link of where to get the belt tension tool or one that will work and how to use it
Welcome to the forum tcjlg. I would suggest moving your post to a different thread, but since you have a problem with the Deutz engine, probably best to leave it here. Question though, the 40H came with either the Deutz F2L511 two cylinder or F3L912 three cylinder diesels. I can't remember for certain, but I didn't think those engines used a timing belt, my memory could be way off on that though. Do you know exactly which engine you have? Another thing that puzzles me, the high engine should only be operated by drive, it shouldn't have high engine for boom operations, don't know how your machine is doing that. There are two relays in lower electrical control box, one for high engine speed, and one for low engine speed. If you're getting high engine speed doing boom operations, I don't know what to tell you would be the problem other than a short in wiring from drive controller, and through engine speed switch. I have no idea where the boom operation circuit would be wired into the high engine circuit.
Thanks for getting back to me Willie I'll try to figure out how to post in the right place soon lol.the engine does speed up a little bit when raising the boom but when driving it speeds up a lot and throws the breaker switch the stays running fast I have too reset the breaker so it will idle down again thought about using boom switch in place of drive switch to see if it's in the joy stick but have to change the oil pump first to get it run oh again ohh yea it the f3l912 someone told me that the timing belt should have about an inch slack seem to lose to me
Get in another post and you'll become a junior member and be able to start your own thread. I can only tell you how the machine was originally designed to work, I cannot account for the way it's operating presently. The engine speed speed should be controlled by an Adeco throttle controller which controls two adjustable speeds, high and low. It consists of an electric motor that turns a worm screw. A plastic screw block on worm screw is attached to a cable assembly which goes to the engine throttle control lever on injection pump. When high engine is selected, the high engine relay sends power to the Adeco motor causing it to turn worm screw moving screw block and control cable respectively until screw block encounters a limit switch and stops motor from turning. When hi engine is de-selected, the mid engine relay sends a voltage signal to Adeco motor to reverse rotation of worm screw and move screw block opposite direction, bringing engine rpm back down, until screw block encounters another limit switch stopping motor rotation. If you do in fact have the Adeco speed controller, and it actually revs up engine when working boom functions, I have no idea how it's doing that. On the other hand, if you say the engine revs a bit when operating boom functions, are you certain that you're just not hearing the reaction of the engine governor under load maintaining engine rpm and not really revving engine with Adeco controller?
Well,i learned from this tread to stay away from these newer deutz diesels. The older ones with the timing gears would run forever. Beats me why they fixed something that worked fine:beatsme
Could anyone help me find out where to get a workshop manual for deutz f3l1011f I'm going to Tackel a seazed bottom end
The duets is a non interference engine meaning that the push rods will bend before the valve will bend. My T200 had the same problem I took it to a reputable duets shop in Tifton GA Shiver Disel an he rplacex the belt. 4 pins in about 3 hours while it was on the trailer cost me about $400.00 and Iwatch him. JAMES knew exactly what was wrong and what to do. The duets requires a special tool about $800.00 to set the timing correctly some mechanics don't have the tool and k.ow how so they use bolt instead of pins to align the crank with cam and that can cause problems. Not saying the dealer did any wrong but when I called they wanted $1300.00 to fix it and I would have to leave it. IF I GOT ENGINE PROBLEMS I TAKE IT TO A REPUTABLE DUETZ DEALER SERVI E SHOP