Hello, looking for some help with my truck. This post may be a bit long, but trying to put as much detail in it as possible. The truck: 06 International 4400, single axle dump, 33k gvwr, 65k miles, dt466 manual. The problem: I have owned this truck since Feburary. It has a pretty violent shake to it, ONLY when fully loaded and ONLY between 50-60mph. It drives fine unloaded, and fine with a half load. The shake feels like the truck is rocking back and forth, I can feel the front sort of "bouncing." I can feel it in the seat, the mirrors and hood shake. The steering wheel does not move side to side. The shake comes in waves, and I can count them. It does it accelerating, coasting, braking, and with clutch in. It only stops when I drop below 50mph. If the roads are bad it is worse. What I have tried/looked at: -The front tires I replaced when I first got it (Toyo 11r.22). No change. -The rears are 295/75/22.5 Ironmans, put on by the previous owner. He stated the truck shook the entire time he owned it (4yrs), and the tires did not change it. -balancing beads in all tires (rears had weights) No change. -Run out/out of round test on all tires - They all appear good, no bulging, tread issues etc. All 110psi. -Run out test on rims - 2 rears appeared slightly out of round - replaced, No change. -Run out test on driveshaft - appeared to have excessive runout. Driveline shop confirmed rearmost shaft was bent. New shaft welded in, balanced. 3 new u-joints. New carrier bearing. - No change. -New front shocks - No change. Other things I have looked over: Front wheel bearings and king pins are tight. Tie rods tight. Leaf spring bushings look good. I do not see any broken/bent leafs. Motor and tranny mounts look fine. Cab mounts look fine. I have done several tests with the truck on jacks, unloaded, running at various speeds, no shake present. Nothing appears out of ordinary. Any ideas on what to look for or try next? Anyone had a truck with a similar issue? Any ideas as to why it only does this when loaded? I've spent a ton of time trying to figure this out, any help is appreciated, thanks!
Good first post. Plenty of information to get started with. We can figure this out. What type of rear suspension does She have?
Thanks, it's just leaf springs in rear, no shocks or airbags.
Alrighty. Let’s look at some simple stuff. Sounds like there was extensive drive shaft work. Are you certain the drive shafts are in phase? One or more wheels may be bent, or not concentric with the hub. Are you certain that there are no stud piloted wheels mixed in with the hub piloted wheels? You can jack it up, put it in gear and look for yourself.
Pinion angle is off when loaded.
Truck Shop, please pick up the courtesy phone.
Have one of your friends in a different vehicle follow you on a 04 lane highway and observe where it is shaking the worst=== front axle, rear axle,etc. Hopefully that will point you in a general direction instead of the entire truck
You crabbing in the rear. Need to measure from front to back and see if you got a little crab going on.
Check and make sure it’s not a slip yoke binding or bottoming out
Okay I'm back with some answers, went to Lowes and bought a digital angle guage. U joints are all in phase, driveline shop marked the two shafts, and before I put it in I made sure by lying it on a flat surface. The wheels are all hub concentric, I have had them off numerous times, they appear fine with it in gear/on stands. Slip joint splines look excellent, driveline shop verified. The slip joint moves freely and does not bottom out loaded. I measured the driveline angles today (unloaded). From front to back: Crank pulley/rear of trans - 4* 1st shaft - 6* 2nd shaft - 7* Rear pinion - 6.5* I'll hopefully have time tomorrow to load it up and measure the angles.
As for crab-walking, I measured from lip of front rims to lip of back rims: little under a 1/2" more on passenger side. From front U-bolts to Rear U-bolts: About a 1/4" more on passenger side. I did this alone with a tape measure so not sure how accurate this is, but may be something to look into. No sure how to adjust rear axle.
Good idea, I'll try and plan that out. Just 2 lane roads around here but worth a try.
You should name this truck, Miley Ray Cyrus, because it likes to twerk. Miley for short.
Make sure your transmission is bolted solidly in place. I had a dump truck once that shook really bad. It turned out that the transmission mounting bolts were just a little loose, causing the transmission to move around at road speeds. Odd things can occur.
I would check all mounts, cab, engine, transmission. Still sounds like a driveline problem. Question, does it do it under tourqe only? Does it shake over 55 if you’re going downhill and off the pedal also. That would indicate a driveline issue or not.
I checked the two trans mounts today, they are tight and the rubber looks good. Here is what they look like, I am assuming they look normal
I spent the past hour or so going over all the mounts mentioned. All the mounts and bolts look good, bolts are tight. I checked U-bolts as well with a load on it, only one let me tighten it a smidge. It does it under torque or just coasting. If I am going downhill over 55 and off the pedal it does it. Around 60 is about it's top speed, it's geared low.
I measured the driveline angles again today with a load on it (9 tons). From front to rear: Trans 4* First shaft 6* Second shaft 5.5* Pinion 7* I also measure ride height while loaded, rear drops about 1", front around .5" with 9 tons. Below are the angles unloaded vs. loaded
My employer had a couple 4000 Internationals the same vintage as yours that developed a shake at speed at about one year from new. It was very similar to how you described your truck's shake.The dealer tried to fix them as they were still under warranty. The dealer had one of them for several weeks and returned it still shaking. I found a steering damper kit on Internationals service page and ordered one and installed it. The shake went away completely. The kit consisted of a hydraulic steering damper a bracket that went on one of the U-bolts and a bracket that attached to the tie rod with two U-bolts. I installed one on the other shaking truck and it cured the shake as well. Ask your dealer to open a "Case file" in the "Iknow" system to see if the steering damper kit is still available.
Pull the axles and run it up to highway speed. No shake means it’s not a driveline issue, start looking closer at tires, hubs, drums, clutch, engine etc If it still shakes it’s in the driveline somewhere, start pulling driveshaft sections until it stops. Are all the drums centered on the hubs? I’ve seen aluminum hubs with slightly corroded registers allowing drums to be off just a fuzz, they usually reveal themselves in a funky brake adjustment or a pull when braking.
Is there any chance of a hub not being concentric? Maybe pull the drums and check for runout on the hubs with a dial indicator?
While you’re at it check the runout on the tires themselves. Might have a broken cord or wire.
Have you checked front end alignment?
Interesting, did a little google search and this may be what you are talking about: https://www.hendrickson-intl.com/getattachment/9317e344-016d-434e-9650-a86da988b441/59310-071a.pdf I'll give the dealer a call and see if they still offer it or if It'd work with the Dana front I have. Worst case could buy a stabilizer and fab some brackets, see if it helps.
I have not pulled the axles, But I have ran it up to 60 (on jacks, no load in bed), with just the drums, with just the rims, and with the tires on. Nothing noticeable. I've considered doing the same tests with it fully loaded on jacks, makes me a bit nervous though.. I have not looked into the drums being centered on hubs, will have to check that. It does not pull when braking. Thanks
This I will check. Dial indicator on order.
When I had the fronts mounted when I first got it, the tire shop said it looked OK. It drives straight. Probably wouldn't hurt to have front and rear axle aligned, since in one of my earlier replys I measured the front and rear axle distance and it is more on the Pass. side.
I would look into this further. Depending on the wheelbase of the truck, having the axles skewed by 1/2" is no small amount. I'd also have someone follow you both empty and loaded and see if the truck is crab walking.
6 & 7 degrees is steep angle, normal max is 4. One question was this truck shortened wheelbase wise, because trucks with short wheel base normally have the engine tilted towards rear up to 5 degrees to help stop radical angles. The longer the wheelbase the less tilt. Plus most when moving a axle ahead don't correct pinion angle with correct shims at housing mounting saddles.
I do plan on taking it in when I have some down time to check alignment. I'm not sure how the rear would be adjusted, here is how the leafs are connected to the frame.
I don't think the truck was shortend, but not 100% sure. Wheelbase measures around 151" Door tag from 06 says 385, not sure what that means.. It does have shims under leafs
Those are adjusted by shims between spring trunnion/pivot and spring hanger. Is that from center of steer axle to center of drive axle? Or back of cab to axle?
Also for history--contact IH to see who originally bought that truck.
Shims between here? It is from center of steer to drive, 151".
Correct.
At 151"-12'7" it has one short and one longer driveline. Driveline shake is cyclical, it starts at a certain rev and stops at a certain rev. Normally starting around 45 mph all the way up to 60 then stops. It can start at lower speeds and can't really be felt until it reaches a certain speed. Alignment in steering doesn't normally cause shaking unless it is related to a wheel end out of balance. Wandering, hunting & pulling one direction or other is normally related to steering, although there is shimmying/death wobble some call it, common with mono beam axles. Steering dampers are used to control that, it masks the issue, you would feel that in steering wheel, and can start any time, just about any speed. Motor mounts are easy to inspect, but it is rare even with mounts totally gone to start a vibration and if it does it's because it changed driveline angles. Checking radial runout on tires is easy jacked watching distance to floor while spinning, offshore tire casings are notorious for radial runout. Rims & wheel ends, I personally have never seen a hub that had radial runout issues, most all are machined, most all drums are balanced except offshore ones. Mud/rocks stuck between tires and rims, probably not, you've had those off. Spin balancing is the best way to find radical out of balance casings, I've seen as much as 36 ounces in stick on type lead inside of rim. Pounds mind you. * But your issue doesn't occur unloaded or half loaded only when loaded. So that means the angle of dangle has changed.
The best drive lines I have ever gotten are ones beaten straight rather than balanced. If its a drive line issue find a shop that pounds them straight.
Do you think I should order some 3 or 4* leaf shims to try to get the pinion angled down more? I am going to try and put spacers/washers between that leaf spring bracket and see if I can get the rear axle lined up better.
They did actually replace the rear driveshaft tube, then balance both. I did not notice a difference unfortunately.
Try to post some photos of drive shaft angles at all three yokes with truck loaded. I just use a old bubble level with degrees from a combination square on driveline and each radically tipped yoke. * Yes they make degreed shims for spring saddle mounts, used on steer and drive axles. * And a worthy note, not everything is done equally when it comes to a {steer axle}. For instance on old 60's & 70's W900A's with a FA 931 steer axle, to stop aggressive pulling to the right because of crown in road surface. One extra 2 degree shim would be placed at spring perch on right side to put a slight load the opposite direction on that leaf spring. Which would take the pull out of steering, only old hands at alignment shops knew that one.
Drive line vibrations are usually higher in frequency and not usually described as a shake. Your actual U-Joint working angles are front U-joint 2 degrees, centre U-joint 0.5 degrees and rear U-joint 1.5 degrees. They should be within one degree at either end of each individual drive line. I don't think the U-joint angles are off enough to cause a vibration. Working for a Kenworth dealer we delivered to a customer two identical Kenworth logging trucks. One had a vibration that started at around 70 Kmh and got worse as the speed increased. 5.29 rear axle ratios means a high drive line speed. Both trucks had the same engine drive line and axle angles. They tried swapping all the drive shafts between the two trucks and that made no difference. I was able to get rid of the vibration by shimming the top torque rod on the rear drive axle taking the U-joint working angle out of spec. Vibrations and shakes can be very difficult to diagnose. I'm still thinking the steering damper route. I drove both trucks that had the shake and surprisingly you could not feel anything in the steering wheel. Both trucks were bucket trucks with fibreglass service bodies and Altec AM438 booms and the service bodies were full of tools and parts so they were close to their load limit.
True--I've changed driveline vibe by raising the mount for carrier bearing-too, on long three piece drive shafts. But obviously those bucket trucks were starting to shimmy, other wise the damper would have done no good. In order for his to shake with full load the caster at spring perch would have to be tipping to a negative--but anything is possible.
Don't know if it matters, but the truck most likely hasn't been shortened if that is the factory door tag. 385 is in centimeters, 385cm = 151". I personally haven't seen any in metric like that, was the truck originally from another country?
Question or I'm wondering about---how did driveline get bent in the first place, one that can't be answered, along with the rear drive out a 1/2"?
The door tag threw me for a loop too. It says made in USA on the tag.
That's a great question, and I have no idea. I have owned it since April. The guy I bought it from had it 4 years. He said it had the issue the whole time he owned it, but never drove it much. The original owner from what I understand, bought it new for his small excavation company. He passed away 5 years ago. I found that out by calling the faded number on the door of the truck, in an attempt to see if he had any insight on the issue.
Someone drove over a big assed rock and knocked the axle back. Seen it more than a few times.
Which is causing me to consider just how straight the axle housing is.
Spent a good part of yesterday crawling under the truck measuring. I measured from inside rim to inside rim front and back side of the rear axle, looks equal so I don't *think* it is bent. Rear axle appears shifted towards pass. side about 3/8" measured from frame, and towards rear about the same. Looking at the pictures can see how its not sitting equal under the leafs. I measured the wheels and hubs for runout with dial indicator, hubs around .010, the wheels around .040, one had about .080, will replace that one. I also re-did the test from months ago where I jack it up and watch them spin with truck running. One tire now has noticable up and down/side to side movement. One on other side looks like it as well. Can see in pic where a crack has started in tread on worst one. So I think my plan is replace the rim, try to align or get the axle aligned, and new rear tires..
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0.080 isn't much to worry about, but out of round tire casings, yes. Ironman are Chinese casings, highly susceptible to casing failure at edge of tread, DC-150's the same.
It's been a while, but heres the latest update. I swapped on a new rear rim for the one with the .80" runout, no real change. Last week I had 4 new drives put on, went with Toyo 647's, up a size to 11R to match the fronts. Speedo is correct now. Also had a two axle alignment done, can see the stack of shims they added in the pic. Should take care of the drive tire wear issues.. This helped a good bit. Truck drives smoother now, I feel like I can drive 55mph now without it tearing itself apart, but the shake/bounce is still there. I drove around for an hour today loaded trying to focus on the shake again. Feels like the front end still just wants to bounce up and down/shake at that 50-55mph speed. Also noticed if I hit a bump at lower speeds it "activates" the shake, but goes away in a few seconds. Again, only when loaded. May try the steering stabilizer idea next. Or pull the front shocks I replaced and make sure ones not bad.
Definitely check the shocks. At this point a steering dampener may help but if it were mine, I would first load the front tires. I noticed you mentioned balancing beads, back in the beginning but might be time for some equal in the fronts.
The steers do have balancing beads in them, from when I had them installed new last March. They have around 7k miles on them now and still visually look fine. I'd still like to find someone local that'd let me swap on a set of known good steer tires and wheels and rule that out for good, no luck yet. I'll update on the shocks and stabilizer when I get to them.
Sorry, I meant having them filled. We use Equal around here. I haven’t run truck for a while but when I had 3 tractors, I always had my fronts filled, specifically for the ride. Balancing beads work well in some application’s but always thought the beads didn’t work that well with that much of a tire.