OK, since we don't have either a grinder or burnout specific subforum, I guess here is as good as any place. Instead of reposting the pics, here's the link to the beginning of this thread. The beginning: HeavyEquipmentForums Here's a link to a Google Photo album where I put the rest of the pics I have so far. Then I'll post them here so no one will have to leave HEF to see the pics. I know some people don't like going to hosting sites, so I won't use them unless I have to. On that Google site is the short vid of the fire itself, since vids aren't supported here. https://photos.app.goo.gl/H1s5VvVMeVuBiaaG9
I use youtube to post video. If you make the video on youtube, you can embed it in your post.
Get all your tools out Tony.........We are ALL going to fix that dam thing right HERE! Lets start off with your boss supplying us with a premium bottle of Scotch!
I think this one may justify adding a refrigerator to the truck, and definitely some new tools...starting with that Scotch! And since I'm the boss on this one, that bottle is as good as here! Or Bourbon if that's your preference Will be premium, for sure lol! Thanks for the tip, crane operator...I'll try that.
Don't forget to add the microwave oven as well. Might need it for the hors d'oeuvres.
Might have to make do with the Coleman stove I already carry. Which reminds me, it's time to service it. It's nice to have a hot meal without having to gather up tools scattered all over and get cleaned up just to drive someplace to eat. Of course, having chili, stew, etc, easy to heat stuff gets old after a few days, but it doesn't happen often. I guess when I put the fridge in, I can broaden the menu
What I see is a positive battery cable short to ground causing the fire. It is common on trucks. I have repaired some that the driver managed to put out before it got too far. Burns up from starter and takes out fuel lines. Once that happens you are too late.
That's what I am sort of seeing too. What puzzles me is the self attempt to start during the fire. But then, that may have been falsely triggered by a short in the solenoid circuit, and without power to the ECM, it isn't going to start and run, but die trying. That may be the first thing in the chain of events. That could cause enough heat to melt insulation on the main battery cable or another hot wire and start the whole thing.
I have made a list of changes I am going to try implementing as this thing is brought back to life. I'll post them tomorrow if I can. I would appreciate comments, suggestions, criticisms, insults, etc...in addition to more ideas in the pot. It's at the engine shop now for their analysis. I'll report on what they say. Owner says he thinks it will be back to grinding first week of Nov.....this year. Now I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but as far as I know, we won't be able to get parts fast enough for that to happen. We're pushing though. We don't have an equivalent grinder, so we will just limp along with what we do have. Several grinders, just none that can compete with the D-Z.
The power pod should likely get replaced as a package. Wiring harness and electronic controls I would guess may take some time to get. I suppose yours had radio controls as well. Go over the repair parts list with a fine tooth comb because so much gets over looked on fire jobs until you start putting the machine back together. It all goes into the pot of money they use to figure whether or not the machine is a total loss.
The machine harness and several sensors are a total loss, and I'm thinking that they will have to be built to order. The PLC or Microprocessor are safely away from any of the heat. The only way I see damage to the main control is the possibility of some route for 12 or 24 to come back on a 5 volt signal line, which is a possibility. I'm hoping there isn't any damage to the circuitry there. I'm pretty sure we will be hard pressed to get all the parts, mainly the machine harness, in any short time frame. The sensors probably are stock somewhere. Those I've seen appear to be non-specialized, mostly generic sensors such as prox switches and Hall effect devices. But at this age, even the engine harness and ECM may be a little scarce. I say that without any knowledge of any special features that might be handled by the ECM. But if that is the case, D-Z should be able to flash, or furnish the file to the supplier to flash it to proper parameters. I was told there was virtually no change for about 16 years in the overall design of the machine, and with quite a few in the field of this model, it's possible the engine harness could come from D-Z, if it's special, but I'm not seeing anything special there unless there is a custom interface with the machine controls. This just beginning to unfold really...still more questions than answers. And yes, it does have the radio remote, but the receiver module is safely tucked into the main control box. That's located at the far "right" of the machine, probably 8-10 feet from the fire and shielded by the tanks from the heat. I'm sure we won't hit the bullseye on the first go around, because this is a fairly complex machine. At least I do have a serialized schematic for it. There is a guy we have helping who has been with this machine while it was under construction and he's been free with the information we've needed up to this point. I believe we can count on him for help to the end.
Oh, the "Improvement and Safeguard List": Covers to protect bearings from chip buildup Hydraulic lines and fuel lines routed where they cannot be covered tightly in chips. Electric power wiring (starter, solenoid controls, etc. routed above all sources of hydraulic oil and fuel. Hoses and wiring anchored in any area subject to vibration and chafing. If necessary relocate fuel filter cans away from starter and heavy electrics. Possible use hard line rather than hose in places where practical (at least to address the problematic connection at the head for the fuel line) Switch to nonflammable hydraulic fluid. Run battery cables through metallic Seal-Tite or similar Fire suppression system Solenoid valves on fluids with tanks above probable fire source normally closed and checks on returns since they are larger, would save cost to use checks instead of solenoid valves And as I said, please feel free to comment, object, suggest, criticize, improve, or strike down anything you see. I'm sure we won't make this machine 100% fireproof, but I have to believe there are things that could be changed to improve our odds. One thing I'd like to mention in the way of a complaint. Most of the machines have a master battery disconnect. This D-Z does, and contrary to our "SOP, no one seems to want to use it. Since it seems so likely that the origin of the fire was electrical in nature, I have to believe that had the operator properly shut the power off at the battery, we wouldn't have this thread running at all.
I wouldn't put any kind of normally closed electric shutoff valve on the hydraulic system. Have a problem shutdown and suck the pumps dry and collapse all the suction tubing. I have seen and used manual valves with brackets to padlock them in position to go along with a lockout tag out procedure.
Well, I was thinking about integrating them from two vectors; one off the E-stop, which would shut down the engine and pumps, and the other if the main power had to be cut or d/c in an emergency (or shorted and melted in two). That would sort of be parallel. So if things were green lit, power normal, they would be open and the engine and pumps supplied, otherwise a problem would initiate a main power kill. Still working out the various scenarios and how well they would play together before I commit. Could be just as effective to manage open hose flow another way. Flow limiters perhaps...dunno, still working through ideas. Main objective would simply be to stop a free flowing gravity fed fuel or hydraulic line to an involved fire. There are manual valves on some of the supply lines, but if the fire (or respectable fear) prevents personnel from approaching the valves, they wouldn't be shut off. Those on now are there simply for service isolation. Edit to add an afterthought: In parallel with these NC valves, an appropriately rated check valve in parallel with the solenoid valve would allow fluid to flow to the pumps ONLY if the suction from the pump exceeded their crack pressure. The issue there might be if there were an intact suction line to the pump and the compromised hose or line being after the pump. On the other hand, a toasted pump versus a burned up machine might be an arguable point. Provided the pump drive could be shut down before it was damaged. As I said...lots of thinking yet to do.
In my mind the problem is fire prevention, not suppression. Keeping the machine cleaned up as an act of maintenance is far cheaper than modifying systems across the board that may or may not suppress a fire.
Absolutely. If you'll review the list, most of those items are aimed at prevention. I'd rather not give any place to start a fire. My intent on suppression/control really is the last two items. Otherwise I'm attempting to prevent a fire prone environment from forming in the first place. Like routing the fluid lines where they cannot drip (because we all know in time they will leak) onto any ignition source. The solenoid valve idea is a last ditch effort to prevent the tanks from just draining down into an already engulfed area. If I can stop a 150 gallons of diesel from being poured on the fire, it can't get as large, my thinking.
I agree with you on the things that are preventative maintenance. But once it gets going, you are many times better off letting nature take its course. Proper routing and securement of hoses and electrical cables is one thing. Adding systems the manufacturer didn't install as standard equipment may put you in jeopardy should something happen. I was part of an insurance investigation in Alaska where a fire suppression system failed to work properly and the insurance company went broke before they could get their subrogation claim through the courts.
Then again, if the fire suppression system works, no insurance claim or court battle will be necessary. Choose your poison.
Many times the dry chemical suppression systems only slow down the initial progress of the fire. In the case of a grinder, the wood debris gets into everything. Diamond Z used to mount a big Quincy compressor on the machine just to blow out all the debris at the end of the shifts. The operators here religiously cleaned out the machines. Those things can catch fire in the bowls if something gets jammed up enough. I've seen one loss where a roller bearing for the bowl disintegrated and started a fire. It was a total loss. I don't think any suppression system would have helped on that fire. It was caused by a lack of timely applications of grease. I am surprised that there is no suppression system mounted on Tony's machine. In the case I spoke of, the chemical canisters had a defect that the owners and operators had no way of knowing about.
For the fuel, I'd be more inclined to use one of these... https://www.beckettcorp.com/product/fire-safety-valves-check-valves-and-thermal-switches/
I guess it's a toss up. If there was a truly effective a suppression system, D-Z may have put one on. But I would definitely agree that, especially the dry chemical type would never get to the bottom of the burning pile. And as long as there was a heat source, re-ignition would seem likely after the one shot system did its thing. In that case, it's just wasted money and effort. If it were practical and legal, provided the ignition source could be contained, a giant Halon system might work. I've been around them in large data centers, but they are all enclosed and atmosphere controlled. Halon isn't even allowed these days, if memory serves. Just a thought. John, off that list, but added to it, is a compressor so the operator can do just that. I have a couple, but they are gas powered and I am averse to having gasoline around this place. Everything is diesel. I think I have one more Yanmar single cylinder diesel on hand. Our Hogzilla and the Morbarks tubs have a compressor for that, and one has a Yanmar powering it and the other hydraulic, which I don't care for. At one time I found a couple of old timers who had invested in a lot of Yanmar clones, and then the EPA shut down importing them and I bought 4. I should have bought several more. They are identical, same factory. But because these two guys were out of business, they were selling way cheap. Those genuine Yanmars aren't cheap. Compressed air seems to be better on the tubs than the horizontals, but keeping the chips clear is paramount. That and fixing leaks. I feel like this was near 100% preventable. Just a bad combination of things came together. The way the frame and all the sheet metal is put together on this D-Z, it's hard to keep clean. It's a fine grinder, but it does have a catch or two. We're going to try to add some deflectors and try and change the direction of the chips flung out of the mill. I worked on a Bandit 3680 today that has the feed belt and sprockets so worn the chain hangs in the teeth as it rounds the bottom and tries to climb back up for another round, which of course it can't do. The belt tightens up and it locks. I took a couple of covers off and the whole thing is stuffed with cardboard fines. Would be very easy to ignite. Tried to take a little slack out of the belt to make sure it couldn't stick in the drive teeth, but it only made a little difference. The mechanics are going to tear it down and replace the front sprocket at least. It's got the wrong mill in it for wood, so it isn't even close to the D-Z, but it's the next in line on the lot to try and keep grinding while the D-Z is down. Couple of pinches of regrind and the belt hangs and has to be backed away manually. No radio on this one.
Nope. No manufacturer wants to get involved with the potential legal liability if a machine burns to the ground and the installed fire suppression system failed to prevent it. The best you can hope for from an equipment manufacturer is that they provide a designated strengthened area to mount the chemical agent tanks and have provisions in their electrical/electronic systems (e.g. the engine shutdown I mentioned before) to tie the fire system controls into. As an example it took Cat over 20 years to provide areas on their machines to install fire systems. Any large customer I ever came across was completely hands-off as far as fire systems were concerned. They were installed at the time of machine assembly and, most importantly, maintained by the installing manufacturer's representative agent who were legally in the frame if at any time the fire system failed to function as intended. On large job sites the fire suppression company would have people on site 24/7 carrying out system maintenance and attending any call-outs. Any machine with a non-functional fire system was classed as out of service. Today's methodology is a combined wet/dry system. The theory is that the dry agent puts out the fire, then the wet agent cools things down and prevents re-ignition.
Agree 100% that there is no effective substitute for good housekeeping & maintenance. Keep things clean and correctly clamp hoses/cables, etc, before that rub turns into something more expensive is the best way to go.
Volvo installs a factory wet system. The theory in a wet is it helps to cool the embers to help reduce a flare up later. We always say they’re to knock a fire down so the operator can exit safer, not actual to save the unit. https://www.volvoce.com/-/media/vol...20f-firesuppr-21a1006050-2010-02.pdf?v=K_g5Pw
See post #9. The machine was hauled back to us yesterday, Friday the 12 of February. Wish I had found a few takers for my wager. Next week we will see what is left to repair. D-Z was able to furnish an engine harness, but not a machine harness. Oddly, they only had microfiche schematics for the machine harness and told the guys I sent it to they could not in good conscience send an illegible copy. As it happens, I have a perfectly usable copy. According to my engine guys, their opinion is that very little of the control wiring was damaged and they feel reasonably confident they were able to repair the machine harness. The engine is repaired and passed all tests. New hydraulic hoses where needed. I didn't send the radio with it, and they don't know how to operate it anyway, so I just had it moved back where we will test it out and see. Maybe not much is damaged. It came in late, so I didn't spend much time looking at it, but I did see a bit of stray single wires just strung across the machine, so there is definitely work to do, but hopefully not too much.