My Case 580se was manufactured around 1985 and came installed with a one touch starting fluid injection system. As I look at all the parts necessary for this cold-start system, I wonder why didn’t they just put in glow plugs and/or larger batteries. The battery box is configured for single or dual batteries so that was a designed on option but not so for glow plugs which would have provided easier starting on a single battery without starting-fluid injection into the intake. This glow plug technology was available, just wondering why it wasn’t standard. Maybe Case backhoe designers thought backhoes aren’t used much when it’s freezing cold. Or it was an expensive additional feature and wouldn’t be use much especially since a large number of backhoes go to climates where it doesn’t get below 40F year round, so just throw on a optional cold start ether dispenser which is relatively cheap. Etc. Any thoughts? I wish my Cummins 390 had glow plugs.
Traditionally, glow plugs were used for indirect injection engines. That engine (Cummins 3.9) is DI so no glow plugs in 1985. They might have put an air intake heater on it, in fact you still might. But I am not sure if air intake heaters were really a thing until a little later than that. Those engines are known to start very easily in all types of weather without any assistance. Does yours not?
There may be direct comparisons out there, that is, direct injection engine models available with glow plugs and without, but I'm not familiar with any. I'll guess that ether is MORE effective and cheaper than glow plugs, but that's not really the point, the engine was not designed with glow plugs, end of story. A block heater is cheaper and simpler too.
I don't know what the temperatures get to in Kansas, but in extreme temperatures, ether is the only thing that works. Glow plugs work much better than an intake heater system however. And there comes a point when all the battery in the world isn't going to get you going. All you're doing is using the starter to warm the block, and starters are expensive.
Fact is glow plugs draw a lot of amps and you’re depleting your power source before you even attempt to crank. DI engines have generally higher compression and are better starters.
The 6.0 and 7.3 diesels in the Fords were glow plug engines and were problematic. When the glow plugs didn't work, the engine wouldn't start. The plugs would go bad, the timers would go bad and the starters would go bad when the plugs and timers were bad. In my experience glow plugs are a sign of low compression engines with some added complexity to make up for the poor design.
Good time when the glow plug solenoid goes on the 7.3 get you screw driver and off to the races
Are you saying that in 1985 the technology for glow plugs on DI diesels didn’t exist so the only option was an ether system ? Found this on wiki, according to the author the minimum starting temp on my Cummins DI 390, would be 32F since it doesn’t have a glow plug. That seems about right: “...The minimum starting temperature without using glowplugs is 40 °C for precombustion chamber injected, 20 °C for swirl chamber injected, and 0 °C for direct injected engines. ”. Main article is here .
Small pre-cup PC engines are not as big a problem as large pre-cup engines on emissions. Large pre-cup engines usually have poor fuel mileage and dirtier emissions. Plus pre-cup cylinder heads are way more expensive to manufacture. Maintaining the glow plug/starting system is a added task and can be expensive, plus more to manufacture. The simplest idea is the intake air pre-heater. The old A model cat was a good engine with pre-cup, when Cat changed them to direct injection it made the early 3406's a great engine. 1/2 to 3/4 a gallon advantage/ increase in fuel mileage.
An air intake heater could be added. I have thought about adding one to my Ford 445A, but it is a project that I haven't gotten to so I haven't done it yet. Anyhow, if your intake does not match the bolt pattern of existing heaters, there is a company that makes an add-on unit. This is the one I have been thinking about. Here is a link: https://www.rattlintruck.com/i-1626-sure-start-inline-universal-grid-heater.html
That article should start "Once apon a time" if you read it carefully it contradicts it self several times .Who ever wrote that is basically clueless about diesel engines. Bob
If this machine is parked where electric power is available I would be looking into block heaters. If there is one available as an in-block that would be my first choice. Second choice would be a well done external tank type. Some of the in-block types can be installed with a thermostat that control the on off of the heater to keep engine at a set temperature. Another option would be having a timer in the power source to have it come on a predetermined time before the tractor is needed. To my way of thinking having a coolant heater of some kind has the advantage of having the combustion chamber warm at start up. Where the manifold heaters, ether injectors or even the glow plugs have the engine components cold at first start. And if machine is parked in say sub-zero temps an oil pan heater might also be something to consider.
In colder temps I used to have to crank my machine for a while if I did not plug the block heater in for 2 hrs or so before. Recently I realized the previous owner had snipped the wire going to the Thermostart system. Apparently It introduces heated fuel into the intake with the use of a glow plug. 20-30 seconds before cranking and it started at 30 degrees without trouble. I used to wear down a battery trying to do that before i fixed it. The block heater is still the best way to go though if i know I'm going to need to start it.
Glow plugs are a solution to a problem (the problem is: won't start when cold). Your 3.9 engine is generally known as being a type that will start without any help. Does yours have a hard time starting and at what temperature does the problem start? A few extra seconds of cranking, using some throttle, and rough running and smoke would not have been considered a "hard starter" in 1985. So long as it could actually be started without burning down the starter, using jumper cables, etc. they would have been OK with it back then.
Best reply I've seen in a long time. We are spoiled rotten compared to what men had to deal with in the 70s-early 80s. Caterpillar had it figured out long before anyone else, their PC engines started as good or better than anything else of that vintage. When the B series Cummins came out, the best starter I knew of at that time was the Case 504 that had a rack magnet and starting grooves in the plungers. Deere didn't figure out cold starting until the mid 90s.
Perfect example of a hard starting gold engine is the early Cummins 855. Fixed time-anything below 35* smoke like hell. Plug it in for a hour fire right up. When those engines were common early cold mornings at truck stops you couldn't see across the lot for the light blue cloud of smoke hazing the view from 10 trucks firing up.
We had a 1979 W900 that I believe originally had a 8V92 that had been converted to a 855 Cummins. Believe we rebuilt that 855 with a kit and some parts for a NTA420 that we had sitting around from a canceled overhaul on an off-highway M-35 Mack. Like Truck Shop said if it got near freezing outside it needed heat or just a sniff of the ether can to start. A couple times I recall someone not familiar with it fire it up cold and try giving it too much fuel while cold and it could skip a little then fire in the exhust and blow the exhaust off. Most of the drivers did like it otherwise as it was gear so I was told that running empty on level roads it could hit 100 mph, but then I know how some drivers can stretch things a bit!
My Cat 922A loader manual claims that at 0 degrees F, 2-1/2 minutes of glow plugs equal 10 seconds of cranking amps. That's a D330 engine. Cats typically have long glow pug hold times. 1-1/2 minutes at 30 Degrees. Below 0-F they recommend a external preheating source such as a block heater.
when i used to run my 46a doing land clearing i used a propane recirculating coolant heater on 20lb bottle. i would start it after i shut it down and leave it on all night and in the morning it was nice and warm
I've never heard of a propane coolant heater, but I would bet that's the cat's meow for working out in the bush during a cold, northern winter.
It is a basic tank heater that runs on propane. Properly mounted on a reasonably clean machine and protected from the wind they worked great. With the flame burning a few machines burned when things went south and proper care got sloppy. We had one on a TD9 tractor pulling a self loading short wood dray when I was a lot younger. We would lean a couple posts against the tractor and throw a heavy tarp over it so it had good distance from the heater and flame. It was nice and toasty under the tarp in the morning due to the hot exhaust plus the engine was at near operating temperature.
this is the propane heater on my 46a. Not the best location, but the easiest
Been around enough Deere and IH tractors back in the day, most needed to be plugged in, anything under 50 degree's, done it all, put glow plugs in the intake, those take a huge amount of amps out of the batteries with limited success, the best versions dump diesel in and ignite it inside the intake rather than just a glow plug or intake heater, plug in block and tank heaters are by far the best and cheapest. Hilton cordless heaters do the job as well till the lp tank runs empty, then it will run the battery dead and then freeze the battery solid. The older Lp heaters had a spark plug to light them [like the one in the photo posted], then a flame if I recall correctly, but the new versions use a catalyst to ignite the lp, those heaters are really nice, they take about 25 amps to heat the catalyst for a few seconds to a few minutes, then once hot, only a few miliamps of power to keep them running till the lp tanks runs empty, then its 25 amps till the battery is dead kind of thing. We always started the heater when we were going to shut the engine down, that way the alternator kept the batteries up while the heater kicked in and once the heater was hot and running, shut the engine off, just had to be sure the lp tank was full enough to run overnight, or the entire weekend or week or however long you wanted it to run and keep the engine warm. As for either, if your at that point, or been at that point, you might need to do a compression test to figure out just how worn your engine is and how low the compression is. You also might have an injection pump or injector issue as well causing you grief. I had an IH 466 engine that you could never get running, done it all and it was impossible to start, did the compression test, which was fine, pulled the pump and injectors twice and had sent in, both times came back perfect but still cost me thousands of dollars to have checked over, checked and rechecked the timing, finally before tossing it into the trash heap, took the the pump and injectors once more but this time to a different shop, turns out the injectors were not even close to being set right, got them home and in and when going to start it, never even heard the starter engage and it was running. Over ten years of fighting and more swear words than anyone should ever know and more cash forked over than I care to even think about, but it now starts and runs just fine, down to and below zero without any help, but I do prefer to plug it in [block heater] so its warm just the same. For that age and vintage, the cummins started really good, I don't know if yours has 2000 hours or 20,000 hours on it, that all makes a difference, but if it were mine, I'd be checking into some engine testing to figure out why its not starting the best it should.
the propane heater in the picture i posted has to be lit manually with a match, so no draining of any batteries. that's why i liked it. some guys used a set of quick-couplers and hoses to hook their truck up to a cold machine to circulate the truck coolant through the cold machine engine. the truck had a set of quick-couplers teed into the heater hose and an isolation valve to adjust the circulation. obviously the truck and the machine had to be using the same coolant/antifreeze. that was back in the day of cast-iron engines in pick-up trucks. you couldn't do that nowadays but you could use an old engine with a radiator on a skid and make it work
have tha same issue with a 580e. with a 1000 cca battery. There just isn't enough battery to spin the motor fast enough when it gets below 20f. My old 816 allis had two 1000cca batteries it started fine with the same size engine. dont think glow plugs would help if you cant turn motor over fast
i used it to heat my truck cab when ice fishing
A trick I used to do on diesels in cold weather was to throw a tarp over the engine to keep the breeze off it and then set a 500 watt halogen portable floodlight about an inch or two under the oil pan shining on it. It essentially worked as a block heater and warmed the oil enough so the engine would spin freely.
Our propane heaters were match start also. Required nothing from the unit being warmed up or more often being kept warm. The heat lamp trick Steve mentions above works well to start a machine without a mounted heater if you have electricity. Another trick we did at times when we were in a bind, was to take 6 inch stove pipe with an elbow on one end and stick it under a engine with the elbow pointing up. Stick a weed burner torch running off a 20# propane tank into the horizontal part of the pipe. Never had to turn them up to high to get all the heat on the pan you could want. An hour of heat with a tarp over the hood and presto. Another summer day start. We never left these unattended.
Great information shared in this thread. We don't deal with too many cold start issues anymore, but knowing how it can be dealt with is certainly handy information. Thanks for sharing guys.
You can even use another vehicles exhaust to heat a cold engine. Tent off the cold engine again with tarps and use a hose on the running vehicle like they use to exhaust fumes from the repair shop. Let it sit a while and the cold engine will eventually be warmed enough to start. Might take a while in frigid weather but if you're in a bind it will get you going. If the machine has a closed cab be sure to open the doors or windows before you start to keep the cab clear of CO
WHAT NOT TO DO TO START A COLD ENGINE----park an h model mack in a household goods storage warehouse the night before - following morning temp is 13 deg.f ---- try to start it at 6;am won`t start so place a lit hibachi under the oil pan------head off down the street to the bowling alley resturaunt (opens early) for breakfast then a beer or two-----then about 10:30 get surprised that fire sirens are screaming every where ----go out to see whats happening notice that all the commotion is coming from the warehouse where the mack is. this happened in alex. va 1967 destroyed the whole 50.000 sq. ft warehouse and all it contents. I helped haul the aftermath away
I bet the engine was warm enough to start by then though...possibly water damaged
A local guy years ago bought a new diesel pickup, those 6.2 gm's and on a really cold winters day, it wouldn't start, so he took a waste oil pan with some waste oil in it and lit it, slid it under the engine and waited for it to get warm enough to start. Turns out he used the waste oil from his old worn out car engine, that had far too much gasoline in it, as the flames came out around the engine compartment and lit the engine compartment and front tires on fire as he tried desperately to pull the oil pan back out, before he could get the water hose to put it out, his entire pickup was engulfed in flames as he watched it burn up. The only lucky part for him was that it was in front of his attached garage and not inside it or else he'd have burned his garage and house down as well. His next new pickup [the same year] was a gasoline instead of diesel. The investigators though it was gelled up as to the reason why it wouldn't start and stay running. Open flames with anything involving grease, diesel or gasoline probably isn't the best idea, but yet most of use salamander space heaters all the time to warm equipment up enough to start. We've also taken huge 220volt tank heaters, 5000 plus watt units,[zero start and others sell them] plumbed in a hot water pump inline for forced circulation and used a welder generator to heat the engine that way, takes about 15 minutes on below zero days to warm most any engine up to 80 degree's or so, works for really fast safe starts in remote area's and saves dragging lp tanks for the hilton heaters or space heaters around, just pull up and fire up the welder and drag out a short 220 cord and wait a bit and shes warm and ready to start. The Hilton cordless heaters, if we have a half dozen machines sitting on the job site, we use a couple of those heaters, have quick couplers set up in the lines ahead of time and have two machines warmed over night, then once there, we just uncouple those two heaters, carry them to the next machines, couple them up via the quick couplers and use the alligator clips to the battery, fire up the heater and while two engines are started and warming, we preheat the next two, so in a couple hours we have all machines warm and running with only two heaters and two 20 lb lp tanks, once done we just unhook them and put them back in the pickup to wait till evening to decide which two machines we'll need first the next day and hook them up to those machines that evening and repeat, saves the cost of having a heater on every machine I own, that way a couple heaters can be used on 20 machines or more, just as long as you don't need them all to start and run right away the next morning at the same time. Those heaters also come in two sizes, standard or high out, if I recall correctly the high out put version has more catalyst in them so they burn hotter, cost a couple hundred bucks more than the standard version, also heat a lot faster, so we bought the high output versions for use with the quick coupler use, standard version for the overnight use on smaller block engines. Its not a big deal, once the block was warm enough it would open the thermostat to allow cold coolant from the radiator to circulate through the engine anyhow. So with the high output version left on overnight, even the radiator would warm when you got there in the morning, worked great for the semi's, or anything with cab heaters on them, that way you had instant heater in the cab once the engine was running, seeing how the entire system was basically hot upon start up. Those heaters also had overheat shut downs built into them, so before they'd boil the coolant, the heater would shut down automatically.
Does the Hilton heater alone provide enough circulation of the coolant or does your setup use an external 12v pump as well ? How long does it take to get one engine warmed to 80F?
the biggest problem with dozers is getting the external heat down in the bottom of the engine compartment. at -20c even with a herman-nelson type heater and tarped in, a d8 takes a few hours to warm up
The Hilton heater will circulate the coolant like any other tank heater and doesn't need a circulation pump. The time it takes varies by the size of the engine and gallons of coolant in the system, it also varies by the size of hoses to and from the heater and the fitting sizes, the larger the hoses and fittings the more water that can circulate as the heater heats is about the jest of it. As for how long, it would be up to two hours if you wanted the engine warm like on a summers day, in all reality, it only needed to be warm enough to start just fine, so if your engine will start fine at 40 or 50 degree's, many will start down to 20 degrees just fine which will shorten the time required by a lot, depending on how cold it is when you start. Google or call Hilton Cordless Heaters, they are a small outfit that can answer any of your questions you could ever have about heaters, I'd think they are still in business, its been over a decade since I ordered a new one or got parts. The units we put circulation pumps on were the 220 volt tank heaters and instead of using the heat transfer which would allow the heater itself to be thermostatically controlled and cycle on and off. We just put a huge tank heater on, about four times or more larger than normal, and with the circulation pump installed, the heater never cycled off, so the normal two hours time was cut down considerably by both the size of the heater and the fact it never cycled off even once, long before it would cycle off due to the water being too hot inside the heater itself, the engine was warm enough to start, we controlled the flow rate through the heater with ball valves to speed up or slow down the flow. That's how we reduced up the warm up time of the engine, when we got there in the morning using this setup. You also need to keep in mind even with todays engines that start really good, the oil in the oil pan is still outside temp, same for the hydraulics, so even if you can get them started, you need thinner oil or winter oil in both the engine and hydraulics so you don't destroy the engine due to lack of lube or the pumps due to the oil being so cold it won't flow, that's the reason why many use portable space heaters with tarps, to help warm everything up. As they say just because it can start doesn't mean it should be started. I always did an oil drain test, the pails of lube we have at the job site or on the machines we use to add oil, before we start machines up, we do a pour test to see how the cold oil comes out of the jugs, if it doesn't pour out fine, we don't start machines without a space heater under them first or sometimes not at all and just forget it for the day and wait for it to warm up somewhat, depending on the machines.
I would nt agree with you on that, Opposite CDI engines work on a lower comression cause they give more powerful injection. For example cdi engine may work when compresiion is 20kg per cubic. Whie ordinary deisel engine with that low compression is considered dead.
Yes, direct injection engines are typically around 17:1 compression ratio? even lower for turbo like 15:1. Precombustion or indirect injection engines are around 20:1 compression ratio. With a cold precombustion chamber the heat loss is worse than a direct injection, so glow plugs are needed to start, even at mild temps.
Well shows what I know. Thanks for the clarification gents.