For a 4500/5500 Ram or F-450/F-550 service truck, what would be better for power, diesel or gas. I've never ran a truck that size with a gas engine. All have been diesel. Good power but man these new diesels sure are CEL happy. Way to much junk under the hood for my taste. I understand the gas engines don't have the longevity of diesel but I also don't want to be stuck under the hood or in the shop every other week with emission problems. What do you folks have for insight?
I think diesel is so much more expensive and doesn't get the fuel economy of the original diesels that it's hard to justify unless you're constantly pulling a trailer near the max GVW.
The last 6.7L F-550 I drove wouldn't break 10 mpg. I can't see a gas engine being much worse than that.
Our motorhome has a Cummins ISL, I think it's an 8.3L inline 6 with 1200 lb ft of torque. Our combined gross weight (motorhome plus Jeep on a trailer) is about 40,000 pounds. I average around 7.5 to 7.6 mph. The equivalent in a gas rig, assuming it could even get up a hill, would average maybe 6 mpg. But there's the price per gallon delta of gas vs diesel - not that important in this case. Gas engine is just not practical with some situations.
My durability testing (from my coworkers) would lead me to a C4500 or C5500 GM. We've tested them all. The GMs are in for repair by far and away the least. With that said, all my 3500s are gas now, but, unless you live in the flatlands, I wouldn't go gas in anything over, say, 17k gvw. And, here in PA, my Tier IV final Cummins 6.7 in my 26k (actual weight) returns 8.5 mpg consistently, and, @ 100k miles, has only had a DOC (under warranty, but was really just a bad NoX sensor), and EGR tube cleaned (with a simple pipe cleaner), and a blown out exhaust gasket.
I think if your asking that question you better go gas. Those of us who are die hard diesel fans will only ever have a diesel in a large truck but once you break down the pros and cons the gas is cheaper and less trouble in the long run. In my mind nothing beats the feel of a well tuned diesel when the turbo spools up and you feel the torque come on.
Really? One place I worked had a fleet of C5500's and they were finicky as ****. Nice trucks but holy hell were they high maintenance. I'm looking at used to get started with. I'd love a diesel but the emission junk + used truck just seems like the perfect combo to be a shop queen. If I'd been on my own and already had dedicated and consistant customers I'd probably go with a brand new diesel. $180,000 is a lot of scratch for just starting out lol.
So why are you going with a 550 size truck? When I started shopping for a truck, it seemed I could buy a 650/750 size truck for the same or less money which gave me a larger gvwr. I wouldn’t think that the cost to run a truck my size is much more than a 550. I’m not sure what I get for mileage because being a service truck, it’s prone to idle a bunch. Besides, it’s a service truck. Fuel mileage is one of my least concerns.
You are recently laid off, right? My advice is "lean startup." You are going to be paying every which way for tools, insurance, down payments, deposits on all sorts of stuff. Get an older, uglier truck that just works and that is likely to be gas or diesel just depends on what you happen upon. If it has to be newer for some reason, then my advice is gas as well. Better a higher fuel bill with breakdowns that are manageable then some savings on fuel and breakdowns that are bankrupting. Big fleets can spread that kind of thing across many trucks, little guys not so much.
The forum wouldn't let me like Birken's post more than once, so, like, like, like
I hate to be reconsidering gas jobs. Used to want diesel everything. With the cost of some of these new diesel repairs I am. If you are traveling long distances spend the extra money for a diesel, without emissions devices if possible. Working fairly close a gas burner can be real a money maker. Just my opinion and experience. When I started on my own I had a C10 van. I painted it and put chrome bumpers on it. It looked good. When you get in the door most folks are worried about if you can get the job done than how big a vehicle you drive. Best wishes.
If your are new and under financed, you get the best deal you can find that you can make work. The type of engine doesn't have a lot to do with what you can afford. Big gas in trucks is pretty well dead in used trucks around here.
My $.02 is there are lots of good deals on older Ford units with the 6.0. Not starting a brand war. There is a reason for that. Just bad news. They can bleed you dry
Honestly I'd trust an old, deleted 6.0L with head studs over a new diesel with all the aftertreatment lol.
If i needed a pickup that was all most a truck i would get a truck then i would look for something older that is proven to be good. If i was getting a over grown pickup i would go gas. Every one of the 1 ton and bigger i drove felt like it was overloaded all the time.If you are starting out go small and see how you like it before you get in to deep.
Did you see the thread on here where the guy started his business renting plate compactors and throwing them in the trunk of his car? That is my kind of business. Keep costs down and finance out of cash flow not credit. Especially in this economy. With bad roads and such any truck new or old is going to look bad most of the time anyway. The hourly rate is set with the customer by phone before they ever see your truck. They may get a disappointed look when you show up in an old truck but once you fix their stuff competently they will call you back. A good paint job is all you really need and get it when you can afford it, not right at first.
Download the truck paper app. You can shop for all kinds and sizes of service trucks and get an idea on what your budget will allow
To me, image is important. I want a truck that reflects the level of professionalism and attention to detail I put into my work. It doesn't need to be perfect but I don't want something that looks like it tumbled off a cliff either.
A used truck that looks well cared for and well thought out will impress more customers than a shiny new expensive one. When you get a new truck some guys assume you charge too much.
A new truck also leaves the assumption that you can be pressured because your on the hook for payments each month. It can also mean that people resent it some and want to take their time to pay you.
Your vehicle is kind of your signature and some people think because you have new equipment or a truck you must be rich. An older truck in tip top condition would be good advertising for a mechanic.
Especially if you rolled up in a vintage, fully restored KW service truck. That might be phase 2 if things take off lol.
And the clueless would assume it is a new truck! I know a lady with a restaurant, catering a party recently. Host looked at her Nice Suburban, commented:" Catering must pay well to drive a vehicle like that" Her response: " Oh yes indeed it does, other wise I could not afford this 2007 model"
This what Rob Zucker operates, on paper.
That's freakin' cool! I've been restoring an old W900A in my spare time. Was going to use it to tow a 5th wheel but maybe I'll put a service body on it in a few years when its finished.
I'll start my reply by stating I'm a diesel nut. I love the sound, the smell and soot of diesels!! In a perfect world I would own nothing but diesels, but the EPA has choked the life and efficiency out of today's diesels. Gas engine technology has improved and as has been mentioned diesels have become extremely technical. The new emissions systems have lowered the fuel economy of the latest diesels while fuel economy in gas engines has improved dramatically. Diesel fuel now costs more than gas instead of substantially less as in the days before ultra low sulfer. The slightest variation in fuel quality will send the latest diesels into a tizzy as well. On paper you really can't justify a diesel in that size truck unless you plan to drive mega miles throughout it's lifetime. When I ran my landscape business starting in '97, I bought diesel trucks for the torque advantage in towing and plowing but once the DEF engines came about it just doesn't make sense anymore with the miles I drive, plus the reliability of today's gas engines vs diesel only solidifies the argument. I've been spec'cing gas engines both in my personal vehicles and work trucks since the switch to DEF. The local school district is even purchasing nothing but gas engined school buses now, even the 66 passenger models. It's such a shame what they've done, diesel fuel contains more energy per gallon than gas and should result in better efficiency as they had in the past.
PS: If you can find an old 7.3 Ford or 5.9 Dodge in good shape, that would be the way to go.
I have a 2000 F250 with the 7.3 diesel. Every time I take it to the Ford dealer a salesman or service writer wants to buy it, only 85k miles on the clock. I think it's had maybe five fuel filter changes in its lifetime. Apparently the new Ford diesels have two filters and they should be replaced every six months. I guess one is a pre-filter. We had a 2016 VW Passat TDi, we would get up to 55 mpg on the highway. When the crap hit the fan with emissions 'cheating' we decided to sell it back to VW because I was concerned the 'fix' would ruin the engine performance. Great little car.
As others have already stated, for how choked down the current diesels are and the advances in gas engines they're pretty much even at this point. Last service rig I was in was a brand new 2018 Duramax dually that got the same mileage as my '86 6.9idi (that has no turbo, no OD and 4.10 gears). That truck had endless DEF refills, and regular CELs (continuing for the guy that got it after I left). Rig before that was a "temporary" Ford gasser with almost 300k on the clock and took me all over 7 states with nothing more than sceduled service and an AC recharge. There are good deals out there for slightly older clean trucks (especially with a crunched bed), and no shortage of $500 service boxes that just need keys and a coat of paint.
Funny to me the only diesels I ever owned had {low pro 24.5 tires}. I have spent a life time working on Class 8 and smaller, and not only do I not want or ever wanted a diesel car or pickup- I wouldn't have one shoved up my worst enemies ***. When I'm done with being around them all day the last thing I want hear is another one-plus waking up the neighbors at 5:00 a.m. . And I if were to tow something bigger than a regular car trailer-I would get a real truck for that task. JMHO.
For me the factor is where, I'm driving. Driving at high altitudes … the gas engines run out of breath unless they have a turbo. And that's would push me toward, even a new EPA choked turbo diesel. But down on the flat lands, gasoline emission technology has passed diesel tech at this time.
Well I have a different perspective on the discussion of gas v diesel in pickups and larger light trucks. First of all I currently have - 2001 F250 7.3 bought new with 160K on the clock with no major repairs 2013 F350 6.7 with 150K on the clock with no issues what so ever 2014 F250 6.2 gas with 160K on the clock that we've replaced the exhaust manifolds on 2018 F350 second gen 6.7 with 34K on the clock with no problems (my personal truck) 2019 RAM 3500 with 10K on the clock - it's new .. We have not experienced any issues with the DEF diesels in our pickups (knocks on wood.. ). At one time I owned 3 - 6.0's and still occasionally wake up in a cold sweat at 2:30 AM on a Tuesday morning remembering those abortions. In a heavy duty 3/4 or 1 ton truck, diesel is the only way to go IMO. Our '14 F250 6.2 gasser is a spare truck at the moment and will be sold. It's gutless compared to the '13 6.7 - absolutely gutless. The '01 250 7.3 is also a spare truck and the guys always pick it over the '14 250 gasser when they need another truck. Of course there is around a $8500 premium for a diesel when you buy the truck new. However you get most of that back when you go to sell it in addition to the added performance while you've put 250K miles on it - pennies in the grand scheme of things. The premium on the diesel engine initially and the extra cost of diesel over gasoline is a no brainer IMO over the lifetime of the truck. Hook up our 14K pan trailer with a 279 on it around 13K lbs total behind our '13 6.7 and then behind the '14 6.2 gas - the performance difference is no contest. I'm not experiencing the "choked down EPA diesels" folks are talking about in the newer engines. Our '13 6.7 is a hoss and my '18 6.7 is an absolute hoss compared to the '01 7.3 - no comparison whatsoever. The Cummins in the RAM is just getting broken in so we don't have a lot of experience yet. I can pull 14K behind my '18 6.7 like it's not back there. Seriously the truck will pull 14K up a steep grade as fast as you want it to go. Never owned a gas motor that will pull like that second gen 6.7. This is my business plan and other plans may vary in mileage.
CM1995 you have a need for them and a use, most people don't they use them to haul pie and coffee.
The 6.7L in the 2014 F-550 I used to run wasn't horrible but it sure loved showing off its CEL. Ford makes a decent truck but that diesel shoehorned under that hood gives me nightmares lol. The RAM/Cummins looks less cluttered under the hood and the fit and finish seems a little better. I have a love/hate relationship with Chrysler products though lol.
The '19 RAM is the first Chrysler product I have ever owned, not the first Cummins though. Time will tell how it turns out. Seriously I've had zero problems with the '13 and '18 Ford 6.7 - (knocks on wood even harder )
Never skip leg day.......
Looks like they used 4 of 8 studs on a 5 stud wheel Wonder how they made & balanced that set up
I would take what ever comes cheap since the body always falls away long before the engine dies. Unless you are towing at max capacity all the time i dont see the point of the new diesel trucks. And even at that you guys need different licenses to do that so in that case you might as well have a real truck. In quebec anyone with a regular license can put 30 000lbs behind a 550 and go.
I could sell my 2000 F250 7.3 for about what I paid for it brand new. A gas truck in that vintage is worth $3-5K. My F250 is by far the best vehicle choice I ever made.
I think Alberta is more or less the same as well. Seems we go by number of axles rather than weight when it comes to licensing.
I laugh at what people will pay for a diesel pickup, This is my brothers 97 350 PS with 63,000 total miles. Fully loaded with every option he paid $44.000 for it new, He has been offered $23,000 for it. Nuts.
You're talking about a 20 year old diesel that's not available new today. I even suggested if the original poster could find a diesel from that era in good shape that would be the way to go. The diesels available new today are a different breed.
For us if the vehicle weight is more then 3000kg you have to register the axles to the truck. But if the vehicle has a net weight of less then 4500kg its still just a regular license to drive it.
I have a 2000 f350 with a 7.3 ya i like the truck and it has been trouble free for many years but its is still a underperforming dinosaur. Its towing capacity and payload are pathetic compared to a new truck. And lets not get started about the transmission and cooling or lack of cooling.
Yes, there were models in the past that turned out to be good trucks, and good investments, and then there were plenty of duds too, gas included but a lot fewer gas nightmares than diesels. All I know, is nothing gets bought new smaller than 8 liters in diesel if I have any say in it. And avoid the 2010 era in any used diesel. For all I know, and the limited bit I see, the kinks are mostly worked out, and we're past the armpit years of diesel emissions like the late 70's -80's were for American gas cars, FOR new heavy trucks, no idea how that has trickled down to medium duty or pickups.
To bad someone doesn't make a glider pickup. I would be all over a new pickup with no engine and trans.
I can just see all the failed pickup glider kits for sale on craigslist {the father/son projects that didn't materialize}. Plus the warranty nightmare over the cab and chassis, I can just see all the butchered wiring also. Plus finding a company to insure it. Plus title issues. Where did that drive train come from, chop shops would have a field day.
With my experience with dealerships I'd prefer to get the truck $5-7k cheaper and take my chances. My F150 didn't have a single issue under warranty. 4k kilometers off warranty and it needed dang near $3500 in repairs (injectors and intake manifold). I'd have fixed it myself but it was -35 and I didn't wanna do it in the driveway lol.
Why would anyone want the old transmission they were crap
I have been self-employed for around 24 years. I started with an over loaded c3500 with a 350 speed with Granny. Mounted a small auto crane on it. I would sometimes work on that truck all night just to work the next day. Next I bought a new f450 4x4 in 99, then later a used F550 with IMT crane body and air compressor. I still have that F550 but it rarely leaves the shop, I found in my business I spent most of my time just riding that big crane around as most jobs did not require it and wearing out six tires to go get parts. I do road work out of an F150 and have for years. I will get a picture if the set up. It works for me. Heed the advise above or you will be paying the truck more than you pay yourself.
I have a 1989 service body that has been in the family since new. When Grandpa bought it I thought it should have been a diesel but now in hindsight I realize if it were diesel it would be in the boneyad due to cavitation or some other expensive problem, the 351W is still going [not so] strong. It does not go up hill super fast but it goes on the level and downhill same speed as anything else so I don't care.
I agree. The 7.3's are no competition for a 6.7 - it's like night and day between the two performance wise. The 7.3's are dependable engines that are easy to work on compared to the newer diesels but are years behind in performance. My '01 F250 7.3 needs a transmission at 160K if we were to use it to tow anything. Since it's a spare truck we haven't got around to it. Interestingly the '01 7.3 will bring around $10-12K on the market and the '14 F250 6.2 gasser will bring around the same money.. 13 years newer doesn't count for much when it's gas V diesel and the '14 is a crew cab that has power windows and locks, the '01 is an extended cab. I am looking at buying a new personal truck in the 2021 model year and very interested in the Ford 10 sp trans. to the 3rd gen 6.7. Figured I'd let that transmission be out in the world for a year before I bought one. My father bought a new F350 one ton dump in 1988 with the 351W, 5sp manual and a 12' electric over hydraulic dump bed. It was a big deal as it was the first work truck he had ever bought new. It was a good truck for the time although the 351W ate exhaust manifolds mostly due to pulling a 843 Bobcat all over the city sometimes with the bed loaded which taxed the little engine daily. I saw that little flatbed dump running down the road a couple of months ago being used by the landscaper that bought it over 15 years ago.
You said a mouth full, the Ford E40D and the German ZF five speed were both a piece of crap, The Dodge 48 series was a turd too. It took some major work on the clutch packs on the Ford and Dodge autos to get them to last. The early Allison in the GM wasn't much better.
Ya the 4r100 is something. My truck has 335 000km and somehow still on the first one. With the stock cooler i would hit 200f just driving around in the hills with nothing behind the truck. With a oil cooler from a 6.0 i can drive the same route with 14k behind the truck and only hit 190f. Also reverse is so tall if i dont use 4x4low to back a load up a grade it will get so hot it spits fluid out the bell housing. But great for plowing snow.
This is one of the set ups I run. F150, Again they work for me. And they make money.