My tree services business is steadily staying busy and I continue to tackle bigger jobs which leads me to my current bid : Removing 1/2 an acre of oak stumps for a construction project. I was called in to remove 3 trees that the logger hired to clear cut the job site wouldn't touch due to powerlines. After removing the trees in question, the homeowner asked about stump removal. Said she wants them gone from building site. The dirt contractor for the building was going to remove the stumps, but it was going to cost $6000 because the logger cut the stumps too low and he can't push them out with his dozer. Next guy she called said $340/hr using an excavator, so many hour minimum. He also didn't say what size excavator he's using. She wants all the stumps gone, but would settle for just clearing out where the new barn and driveway are going in for now. She asked if I would bid it as well since she was very happy with my tree removal work. I'm looking at renting an excavator with a thumb since this job is a bit big for my 310A. Day rates for a 30k-50k machines vary from $800 to $1000/day, plus taxes, fees, delivery. Is a machine that big needed, or could a mini ex in the 12,000 to 18,000 pound range be effective enough to put in a competitive bid? What are your guys thoughts overall on this project. Rent a hoe? Use what I have?
It will take forever to dig those with a mini x. You need a machine around 30,000-35000 lbs. we have been clearing land almost constantly since last Aug. The JD 130G is ok for brush and small trees. However the larger JD 210 has worked much better for trees around 2’ diameter and larger.
What will you do with the stumps?
That's why I asked. I was hoping you and treemuncher would reply. I know you both have done a lot of this type of work. My grandpa has a Deere 590D that has been quite effective over the years pulling stumps and clearing fence lines, but we aren't doing production work with it. We're do clean up work in the off season (winter) and it doesn't matter if it takes my uncle a couple extra days to clear the edge of a field compared to a bigger a excavator.
Whatever she wants. Leave on site or haul off. If hauled off, there will be a charge related to that.
It makes a difference. If you end up loading them that takes time. If you load them in a high sided end dump, a little machine will make you very sad, or possibly injured. Get all the info up front so you can size accordingly. Disposal rates, trucking, etc. A half acre could go on a regular dump truck with a high lift gate just a couple at a time if the stumps are small enough, or no gate and chains if they are too big. The most efficient is a single load in an end dump. Now you want at least a 250 sized machine to get them up over the side safely an quickly.
Stump diameter and height of stump are important information. I think you are still in the mud flat area, so soil type should be favorable. How dry are you? I take out trees with a 200, and find tree type and location make a huge difference. I can pull 12" hackberrys in a hedgerow, and push over 30" hedge in a hedgerow. But get a 18" mulberry by itself in a pasture, and it has to be dug out. Siberian Elm are about the most difficult local tree. I've never taken out an Oak, so I don't know what kind of rootball they have. Short stumps will make the job a lot more difficult, and mean you will have to dig a lot more around the base. Your machine requirements may well be decided by getting a large enough machine to lift the rootball into a truck for removal. Given time, you could dig them out with a mini ex. But that does no good if you can't get the rootball onto a truck.
I expect your client will want the stumps gone, if not now, at some time in the future. Otherwise, they will be around for several decades.
most oak trees require a lot of digging. You can dig all around and under the roo tball, and it still will not move. This is due to a long and thick taproot right under the center of the bottom. Until you get that taproot dug out/broken loose, you are not going anywhere with that stump. It might wiggle and move around, but it is not coming out of that hole. The 130JD will not pick up a 2' dia. stump with root ball and put it in a dump truck. Not even with a thumb, as it will weigh too much. The attached photo shows the size of a 36" dia tree, along with its root ball. We had left about 6' of trunk on this one to give the excavator some leverage during removal. We used the 130Jd and a track skid steer to load this one. Barely got it on the trailer.
I have dug out some oak stumps before and I know how bad they are to remove. The largest stump I saw on site was about 24" with the majority being 8"-18". I appreciate the discussion guys as this is a lot different for me than what I have done for myself. I've dug my share of stumps, but they all stayed on site, either buried or burned. Size of equipment to remove stumps, type of ground, dealing with them once removed, etc is all very useful to me. I can see the guy charging $340/hr being right in line with the work that needs to be done once haul away and disposal, mob and demob, and site clean up is all factored in.
If I had something lower to load them in then a 120 -130 would be enough.
Unless I really needed the work I'd let the 340/hr guy do it.
on a tight access stump removal job I did we used a 80hp stumpgrinder to grind the stump as far into the ground as possible then used a 4 ton digger with a ripper to remove the remains. It was amazing how the root ball broke up and was a relatively easy job. In saying that different tree species can be problematic but the method above may work.
@Tones I thought of a grinder too. If they absolutely need all the big roots gone, cutting up the stump like that takes most of the fight out of it. The roots also load nicely as opposed to a complete stump. I have been around an old d8 with stump splitter on it and I thought that was pretty cool, but then again I was not the one bending my neck and backing into them.
I've pulled some pretty gnarly stumps with a pc78 because it was the only thing available at the time. To the tune of spending over a half hour working the stump. That certainly isn't efficient. Then you're trying to fight it into a truck with a machine that can barely get the stump off the ground. You need to take a good look at the amount and size of the stumps you're dealing with. A few big stumps can easily burn a couple hours very inefficiently with a small machine. Like everyone said, you also have to look at disposal. Try to figure out how much volume you're going to fill with the stumps and then you can price some options. Usually the least amount of loads is going to be the best value. If you have to use a smaller machine you can look into using dumpsters to haul out, as that is going to put your loading height at the absolute minimum. Any time we have a large amount to haul out we have a walking floor trailer come in. No stump dump wants a load of dirt, so you're gonna want to get each stump cleaned out as best you can before loading. Also with a big enough machine you can split those bigger stumps down a time or two. This makes them easier to load, also much easier to get a good full load with less dead space.
There is nothing that can't be resolved with the use of high explosives
Years ago I did a bit of time study on stumps. I used a Leibherr PR751 (88,000 lb 360 hp) with standard tilt blade, PC200LC6 with 24" bucket, root rake, ripper hook and stump grinder attachment. Hard as it was to believe, the dozer was not necessarily the fastest method.....and then there was the root ball to deal with. The Levco stump grinder was fastest in this test but it was not a very good unit at 24" wide with fragile teeth that could not handle much rock. I did not have to deal with too many stumps so I did not pursue much with that grinder unit. It still sits behind my shop. Fast forward a few years and I'm on a road widening project working for a very large contractor on an out of state job. They just wanted all stumps flush to grade with the mulcher - no problem. I learned from them that a flush cut stump would break up much easier with a hoe or dozer, be broken down into easier to handle pieces, rolled free on most dirt and loaded into dumps headed for the spoils site. What I learned from that job was that stumps hearts are generally only about 8"-12" below grade with most trees. Splitting that short section of the toughest wood of a tree is generally fairly easy with the right approach. If/when I have to remove stumps with the hoe, I run them down flush to grade with the mulcher to minimize what has to be split. I put a Tiger Tooth on one or both corners of the bucket and that acts as my splitting wedge. If a grab of a corner of the stump with the bucket does not cause the stump to split out, then take one of the Tiger Teeth and punch a series of holes (fault line) where you want the stump to split out at. It might be every 3"-8" for your holes but experience with species is the best teacher for that requirement. Once your fault line has been set, punch a tooth in near the corner of the stump at the fault line and pull towards you - the stump should split easily down the fault line. Remove the chunk you've freed, roll the dirt off and head in for the next chunk. Me? I mulch what is left but those smaller chunks are much easier to handle if you need to load out your spoils. Using this method, 24"-36" diameter oak stumps are fairly easy. A narrower bucket also concentrates your power when dealing with stumps. Of course the problem with excavated stumps is that you always have wood spoils to get rid off. Burn, bury, haul, mulch or pile those leftovers and waste more time. You want to get it done in the most time efficient method? Stump grinder - hands down the fastest and most efficient way to do it. Costs a lot to run in parts but one shot fast if you don't have to worry about chasing root masses. My FTX140FM (140hp, 69 gpm, 6500 psi) with the stumper attachment will take a 24" stump (oak or hickory) 8"-12" below grade in under 3 minutes. Air conditioned cab, drive to the work and cover most any terrain - absolute production with one man all day long. I worked some red oak that was 48" diameter at the cut with an exposed root diameter of 72"+ in 7-8 minutes each, average. Species will vary the time as will bit sharpness and soils type. The last decent sized job that I worked with that machine was 3 acres of stumps averaging 24"-30" at the cut being done in 2 days. I was getting $300/hr for that machine on that job. I'm sure a 300+hp stumper would be awesome! With the stump grinding, you have little if any spoils to deal with after unless you are required to refill the holes. With proper guarding, you can grind right up close to buildings if needed. Unless I had to cut off a lot of the topsoil and did not care about the spoils, my opinion is that the stump grinder is the fastest way to complete the job and will pocket you more money. Finding a large stumper attachment may not be easy and they are not cheap. I no longer run mine as it does not fit my current work profile and I do have the machine up for sale. I work alone so time management is key and I no longer run the small machine because of that. I don't live near city work and I don't work enough stump jobs to justify changing attachments on my larger machine either.
Excellent information @treemuncher Guys, I really appreciate everyone's input here. It gives me some solid information and experience to create a plan and bid from that. I also have to meet with the homeowner again once she has all the tree tops that were left from the logger removed. I certainly think a large stump grinder would have the best benefit for her in most of the area to clear, leaving only a small handful of stumps that actually have to be removed out of the build site.
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Colson, what I was getting at that if you ground the stumps to the top of the root ball the it becomes easy to bust up the root ball with a ripper, drag it out and load. The root ball doesn't necessarily come out in one piece.
Local Amish use a concrete saw with blade or a chainsaw to plunge cut an x into the stump. Cut off very low, x is center of the tree going down. Try to almost find dirt below the roots. Stuff all the Black powder possible into the X and if lucky the stump splits into four pieces. Does anyone have experience with the saw tooth rippers for the smaller excavator/backhoe size machine?
I found a solution for your problems and anyone else wanting to pull a stump up. Minus the horses and use a tractor. A I beam would work on the same concept.
Toyota Hi Lux is also good