I recently bought an old John Deere 310A that did not run (there is another thread on that). I got it running, but ended up with water in the oil and a "chirp" after a couple minutes. Suspecting a head gasket leak and seeing a plugged rocker arm as the cause I; -Drained the oil last night (left the plug out to get as much water out as possible) -Disconnected the intercooler lines and drained them in a bucket, also left open (which exit the pump below the water pump) -Replaced the drain plug ~11:30 this morning -Pulled the head this morning -Cleaned and replaced all head parts At which point I decided to replace the oil plug sealing washer so I pulled the oil plug...... At which point ~2 quarts of coolant came out (green). There was nothing more coming out so I flushed more water out of the radiator/intercooler as above and no water came out. I poured some oil over the rocker arms and pure oil came out I then turned the motor over(a couple revolutions with the starter) and coolant started coming out of the drain. Long story short, does this mean my block is cracked? If so should I cut my losses and scrap the machine?
I should add that when I turned the engine over the injectors were not installed so there was no compression. I do not understand how there can be a small stream of coolant that starts and stops based on motor rotation
Should be a sleeved engine, sleeves are wet liner where have o-ring seals to the block, dependent on age and how well cooling system was maintained could likely have one cavitated thru wall leaking, that chirp you were hearing a piston trying to scuff to the sleeve wall or the cylinder ingesting coolant in the combustion process(Makes Steam). Most likely to have to pull and full overhaul at least inspect internal engine block to see if recoverable.
Don't scrap it ! It shouldn't take a lot of money to get it in running condition. There are people that look to buy TLB's in that condition just to flip them. A member named Phil did it on weekly / monthly basis. Sure wish I knew what happened to him.
A few questions to showy ignorance. I have seen the term "wet-liner" but do not know what that means other than removable sleeves (which I do see). The chirping happens after about two minutes of running Does a wet sleeve have coolant that runs around it? Could I verify this with low pressure in the radiator and see if there is a forced leak based on piston location? As far as I can tell the machine was not maintained too well and it does have 5,000 hours and I have almost no history. There is a ridge at the top of stroke and some score marks on the sleeves
Will not get any pressure to hold with head off, if dio not wish to sink money in it look for a buyer whole, will not do well breaking it down in pieces.
Maybe the chirp is the fan belt. I see it isn't turning. Take the oil pan off then fill the radiator and pressurize it. You will see water pouring out of the leak.
To be clear, the head is on the engine so it should be able to hold pressure. The belt was off in the video clip to eliminate the belt/water pump as a root cause for the chirp. What area should I look at if I pull the pan then fill/pressurize the coolant? Other than a sleeve problem is there anything I should look at for a cause of the leak that is engine position dependant?
Have the valve cover off at the same time and look for coolant leaking. Any leaks like you described should be easy to see. If you see one, look for more than one.
Anything coming down around the cam is bad could be had could be actual block. Pull engine around as pressurize to see if thru wall on sleeve.
Most likely liner cavitation. Pull engine oil pan and pressurize the cooling system. Watch where coolant comes from. Outside or inside of the liners. If inside you may have to rotate the engine some and you will probably spot where the coolant is coming from.
Thanks for the advice. Working on the oil pan now, but I have a question. It looks like the pan is a structural member. Do I need to support the frame while taking it off? I do not want to crash the machine and it looks like a main support for the structure
It is while in use Not sitting still Just additional strength for the machine If does sag when take loose other problems
Thanks, I was just a bit concerned when I saw the large bolts. I got them all loose and they do not feel like they have load. I will give it a shot now
Nope, the engine block is the main structural member
Try to reduce the volume of 'Blue Glue' when reassemble this, really dislike the excess use to Globs of the stuff on anything!!
I dislike it too, I do not plan for it to look like that on reassembly. Got the pan off and filled the water. I have not pressurized it, but it is leaking at the interface of the sleeve and block of cylinder#2 when the cylinder is near, but not at BDC. Does this confirm a wet sleeve leak?
I did not see which side of the sleeve was leaking well but it was definitely at the sleeve
Either cavitated or sleeve seals done Will have to come apart to determine further
That is what I thought. Either way the sleeves need to come out and they are worn, so they will need to be replaced. Thanks for the help, I will post more once I get them out
Black RTV is the only truly oil resistant sealant for engine assembly. IMHO. If it is a high hour engine I would advise you to replace the camshaft bearings. The last time I had a machine shop make a cam bearing driver it was only $20.00. I had it made so that the small diameter of it was long enough to scribe a line on it for reference to get the oil hole in the bearing lined up with galley (hole) in the block. It is very frustrating to install a bearing only see it is a half a hole off. You can see the alignment with a flashlight looking down the galley in the block.
Is the cam bearing accessable without more disassembly? I am already further in than I had planned. On car engines you typically need to pull the engine
The front gear cover has to come off. I never worked on a Deere 310A but I think the tachometer is driven off the rear end of the cam. Removing the cam gives you the opportunity to measure the cam lobes. It is often amazing how much wear is on them. I have seen them where 1/2 the lobe is worn off (on one lobe). Yes the motor would have to be removed. For me it is a lot easier to do a complete motor removal. I would much rather turn a motor on a stand than make 200 trips underneath to do the necessary work.
I would think the engine needs to be removed and completely rebuilt. It doesn't sound like it's going to be a budget fix. Everything will need to be checked and measured.
Also I always use liquid soap to lube the liner seals oil or grease can cause the o rings to swell
Best bet Crisco Used it for years, biodegrades and does not affect orings or the antifreeze or foam up.
Those are great ideas. I have also heard that the sleeves should go in the freezer to shrink them down. Along those lines I have a portable heater for the garage, would that have any value? I rebuilt a gas engine 20 years ago, but this is my first time working on a diesel.
Vaseline/petroleum jelly would likely be a good lube for seals too. Friend who is a diesel mechanic says it works for lubricating all kinds of things without causing any issues.
I made some progress today and pulled the pistons/sleeves. Cylinder #2 (which had the leak) was rusted on the inside and showed pitting on the outside of the sleeve through the wall where the rust was. I assume that the pitting is from cavitation and the rust was a result of the leak. There was some sludge inside the block, but not too much from the videos I have seen (nothing looked blocked, dry, caked) and it was pretty even front to back. Parts should be in this week, so targeting a start next weekend.
We use Vaseline alot on re-assembling automatic transmissions. Its great for holding things in place while you assemble it like checkballs, springs and acts as a great lubricator for orings on installing them. Once it heats up it melts and blends with the oil. Good luck on your machine.
I am happy to report that after a bunch of work.... It runs again with no water in the oil. For the rebuild I did not split the payloader to do the cam, but I did the following; -new pistons and cylinders -new main bearings -new rod bearings -wrist pin bushings were still good -new oil pump (I had previously had the head out and replaced the vales, springs, and retainers) I would like to thank everyone on the board that made suggestions and offer help. It is likely that I would have been 100% stuck without getting your feedback on wet sleeves and cavitation failures (which was the failure mode). I found that there was enough of a ridge at the top of the sleeve that I was able to use the old piston to push out the sleeves and I was able to get the old main bearings pushed out using a plastic "pushing stick" as the main bearings are oil fed through the block not the crank (so I could not roll them out with a headed pin) I ended up putting the sleeves in the chest freezer and using vaseline and they went in very easily.