Any help will be appreciated!!!!!! Test is Wednesday at 3:00 and I have to double clutch. I am doing great upshifting and not to bad down shifting, but every once in a while I get hung up. I know most all of you have been there before, and would like too know any secrets. I do fine with the clutch in, gear netural, clutch out. After that it gets fuzzy sometimes. I know road speed needs to be down to match the gear, and I know I need to rev the engine some what. How much? and is it a quick rev? I am doing good so far, and will have some driving time on Sunday, and Monday before the test to get things worked out. If anything fails me it will be this ( out of gear too long). My first day behind the wheel has been the only day that I cried like a school girl! Lol. Things are much better now! N-14 Celect with an Eaton Road Ranger 9 Speed.
I don't operate trucks to regular, But will try to help. Don't clutch to deep and get into your clutch brake, it will throw everything off. Don't panic when you blow a gear everybody did it at least once. When it happens don't try to get every gear in the box, don't panic. Check your road speed and think what gear you should be in, bring your engine RPM's to where they will go into that gear. On a grade things can change in a hurry. On a down shift you must first ask yourself ,is that next gear attianable. I always try to use my tach to make a shift, Say down shift at 1200 bring them up to 1700 put it in gear (just an example). Down shifting is just the reverse of up shifting. Down shifting more RPM's for the next gear, Up shifting RPM's drop for the next gear. Hope this helps, and don't confuse. Somebody help. Telescooper
Basically you want to increase the RPM's around 300 from what you are running in to downshift. The way I was taught on upshifting is 1300 RPM for the low side and 1600 RPM on the high side. The reasoning for this was this is where the engine is most economical and generating the maximum tourque. Any faster and really all you are doing is wasting fuel.
I won't have any steep grades to deal with. Just slight declines to get to an on ramp I 80, declines for an off ramp ect. The declines where you need to brake to get the speed down to get to the next lower gear really mess me up. It's hard to rev the engine with the foot on the brake? And all the rest to think about.
If you are trying to down shift going down hill you have to slow down further because your truck will gain some speed. Slow down more then what you need take your foot off the brake and bring up your engine RPM's. You must becareful doing this if the grade steep, if you blow a shift and can't quickly recover, you might not be able to get your ride back into gear. As a rule of thumb when decending grades you should be in one gear lower than it took to climb it. I know you stated that it is flat where you are, but you won't always be driving on flat roads.
Oh, if the grade is steep for future referance get your gear before you get there.
You need to "tickle" the throttle and gear shifter if you do miss. I never learned on a stick (18 speed Eaton Autoshift) but I was told by the instructor how to do it. Here's some more info: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5016111944787994393 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7026882383890305918&q=&hl=en
On a 9 speed, you are probably about 500 rpms between gears. Keep this in mind when shifting. When going down a hill and down shifting, the vehicle will gain a little speed, so you might have to rev it up 600 rpm to match gears. Conversly, when going uphill, you might only have to let it drop 400 rpm to match gears. To find out what the normal rpm change is when on the flat, look at the rpm guage when doing a normal upshift and see how much it drops. This is usually the rpm change in all the gears, unless you have an overdrive tranny, and then the higher gears might be a little more. The Fuller 9 speed is an easy to shift tranny. If your aren't already, you will soon be shifting without the clutch. If you are already good shifting without the clutch and it is just the double clutching that is causing the problem, ask the inspector if you can shift without the clutch once you have demonstrated a few times that you can use it. Most inspectors will allow this. They just want you to demonstrate that you know how to double clutch. As mentioned before, when shifting with the clutch, you only depress it partway as a full depression engages the clutch brake. Just keep calm and think things through during the test. You'll do fine. Good luck.
You all have been ALOT of help. Thanks. I will try some of the things out today and see how it goes. I started out float shifting because that is how my driver told me, but found out I had better learn to double clutch or I will be docked points, so here we are. After watching rons video, I think I am nailing the fuel and blowing right by the hole. Most of the time I do fine, just get flustered and get hung up occasionally. Truck Question? During my air brake test, when I get down to 25 or so pounds my dash valve is not popping out. I cleaned the shaft up and put some electrical grease on it but it is still not working. I am going to change the Dash Valve today, but if that doesnt work I will be at a loss. Anything else that will cause this? My air system and parking brakes are working fine otherwise.
It would take less than 25 pounds, my trucked popped the valve at 15 psi and it goes faster if you really pump the brake pedal fast and hard, I made that mistake once on the pre-trip in my last lesson and I did it right on the test.
25 pounds?....it should be higher then that when it pops...ours usually pops (on all 6 of our trucks) at 35-40psi and the buzzers come on at 60
Ron that first video was really good...i wish i would have saw that before i got behind the wheel of a road ranger for the first time
There's already a lot of good advice here. Ultimately double clutching and shifting any "crash box" is a "feel" thing. With practice and an understanding of how the engine/transmission/clutch/road speed work together, you will get better in time. I just took and passed my CDL maybe 2 months ago, so here's some other advice: Keep both hands on the wheel when turning corners. Check mirrors before and after the turn. Stop BEHIND the big white line and then creep forward at a stop sign. A yellow light is really pretty much a RED light accrording to the DMV- so stop. Don't speed. Get into the right lane after a left turn onto a 4-lane, or anytime you are on multi-lanes. Flashers on when backing. Those are things that everyone knows, but if you've been driving anything for a while, you have probably gotten out of the habit. Those are the things that took me down the first time, not how well I could handle the truck, or back to a dock, or shift. Even on my pretrip I only missed one little thing. I guess my point is that I was worried about all the wrong things. had someone told me what to watch for, I'd have gotten it right the first time. At least in my state, you have to blow a shift 5 times before they even start counting points against your score, so it's not too big of a deal. Above all, take your time. It ain't no race. Slow down early, and that will give you time to downshift without panic. You can feather the throttle to find the sweet spot- it doesn't have to be to the floor to downshift. Just don't coast in neutral for too long. Take your foot off the brake and do the shift, then go back to braking. I suppose every tester is different and every individual is different and has different types of experience. Just relax and do your best. Paul
My tester was so incredibly dumb, he didn't even bother to look at what my hands were doing while I was doing the "under-the-truck" brake check, I forgot to push the parking brake valve back in and while I was under the truck, I realized my "error" and I just kept calling out "wheel #3, 1/2-2/4" travel, #5, 1/2-3/4 etc, etc." Even after he passed me, he didn't even bring it up.
Well Im back. Long day. The Dash Valve kicked my a**. 3 1/2 hrs to change it, but its done and it works. 20 to 15 psi it pops out like a rocket. Then came the fun part! Started out driving with my mind somewhere else I guess, it sure wasn't on shifting. My first 3 upshifts were like it was my first day. My Driver said pull over now. We chated for about 10 minutes and off we go. Drove like a want to be pro. Did I say that dash valve kicked my A** LOL. Anyway, My problem has been trying to downshift with my speed too fast for the gear, and not letting the clutch out all the way after I take it out of gear. We practiced that, and tickiling the throttle. I will say that I have alot more respect for you guys that do know what the hell your doing! Lol. All day practice tomorrow, and test wednesday. P Backus, thanks for your test advice !!!. Anyone with any test advice, give it too me please! Lol. I want to pass this thing so bad. On the first try that is.
don't shift in the middle of an intersection or over a railroad always check your mirrors make sure the instructor is wearing his seat belt take close notes if you go over a bridge or under one, when you get to the other side i can guaranty he will ask the weight limit or height if it was posted also don't forget to put the keys in your pocket during pre-trip pre-trip and the cones course really are the worst parts..the road test was cake
Take a look at my post i made a while back and see if anything on there helps you. It all takes time but you will get the hang of it. When i first started i was like you, i could do the up shift good, but the down was what screwed me up. But after a while it will come to you. Hey if i can do it you should be able to do it. I passed on the first try. The tester said he thought i was the youngest that he has passed which i thought was pretty cool to hear since im only 18. edit: also everything digger just said.
I knew this and had totally forgot it! Thanks! So much to remember.
Thanks Nate. It must be that you youngsters don't have as many mental issues as us older folks. Like loss of memory! Alzimers at 46 Lol. Every reply I get something out of.
With your downshifting problem of going too fast,either slow down your road speed some or increase your revs,or a combo of each until you find the sweet spot that will allow no grinding.I have the identical tranny---you have to stay focused and you will be fine,but the first hot woman you see will almost always screw you up.Twin rotating countershafts with no synchros need a deft touch.Good luck.
Not run over a curb with the trailer,that is and automatic failure also.Good luck:usa
It's interesting hearing what different guy's experiences were. Someone said that the pretrip and cones was the worst. I found it to be just the opposite. Guarnteed that something that you really worried about turns out to be a non-issue. Hopefully it's not also the other way around too! Is there any possibility that you can find a truck with an automatic transmission to just take the test in? Sounds like the shifting part is what really has you rattled. It would be nice to take that off your list of worries for the test. There's plenty of time after that to work on your shifting skills after you pass the test. A lot of guys will do that around here, since they don't care if the truck has an auto in it- no such thing as a "transmission endorsement". Do you know where the test course will be? Mine was mostly city, with really no highway driving. I had to answer some questions about hills and bridge weight limits, etc. though. Paul
FOLLOW DIRECTIONS!!! I got @$%@ and was failed cause I went left instead of right(even after I re-asked to confirm---it's a long story). Second time was a breeze and passed with 93%, even though had some tester. She joked about using HAND signals so there was no questions in directions. Pre trip was easy, take your time(you have plenty), touch everything. I was "reminded" a couple times to actually "work" the defroster fan, wipers, etc. I pointed and said but wasn't "doing" and was kinda "ah-hm'd" a couple times by tester to make sure I wouldn't be docked. You HAVE to operate what you pointed at. Parking lot test was easier than I thought. Reverse serpetine was EASY as I just made trailer follow the marks in the gravel from previous 1000+ other testers. Not sure what all you'll have to do as I think they've changed things slightly over the years. I rented truck from test station. Little Binder with 5spd(sychro'd) and 40ft flatbed. Really easy to use/drive, and best $175 I spent!
maybe you will luck out like me...the guy says to me "if i look as nervous as you it's because this is my first time ever giving the CDL test" i think i could have done everything wrong and he would have passed me...i had to remind him of some of the things to do in the pre-trip...he even let me sit in the cab while he checked all my lights for me, and only made me do 1/2 of the brake check even after i reminded him there was 3 more steps:beatsme for me i had to do straight pull forward, straight reverse and parallel park...those were the easy parts...driving around the little parking lot they had me doing it in was the tricky part because it was the same lot that they tested the 16 year olds getting their regular licenses where i had to avoid all the curbs and orange barrels trying to position myself to take my test
Freightrain, how come you didn't want to test with your 2 stick Mack? I was chatting with my tester in between and was asking about that. I don't remember what he said, but he agreed that it would be tougher than a Road Ranger! Paul
Ohhhh, man. NO power steering either! I would have had the lady doing flips out the door with all the fancy "footless" shift work and one handed steering-as I shifted going around corners LOL!!! Actually a friend DID take his in his ol 60's Pete with 250 cummins and 2 sticks. I guess he told the tester he was going to do his best but will they allow some lattitude. He winged it and passed with no problems. Heck I gotta shift 3-4 times to just get across an intersection LOL!!! If not...the light would turn red before I got thru!
Just cause I'm a curious person, how many of you guys actually use the clutch when shifting? I usually don't use the clutch, most of the I use it to help it out of gear in a soft field. But I consider my self a very safe driver, and rarely do I miss a gear. I learned to not clutch, took my CDL test in an auto shift truck, and to tell the truth, I don't think I double clutch if my life depended on it. What do you guys say? And to add to that, I apply the brakes with my left foot, have a spinner knob on my wheel, shift while across intersections, bump the curb every now and again, and roll through alot of stop signs (it's pretty rural out here). Looks like I shouldn't have a CDL!
Well it all came together today. Finially. I worked with a different guy today, who is also a CDL Tester for the State of Utah. After we got the downshift fixed, he tested me on the driving portion. I passed with flying colors. But that doesn't mean squat for Wednesday. Downshifting, he told me to take the rpm down to 1,000 in the gear that I was in. Clutch in gear out, rev to 1500, clutch in gear in. It worked every single time in every gear, at every speed. 500 rpm window. 1200 to 1700, worked every time. Amazing that this kicked my tail, but sometimes you just need to hear a different voice, and get it to register. We took the truck to the test site, which happens to be the county bus yard. He left, and I went to reposition the truck, hit the engine crank (click, click, click). Wonderful. I checked the battery cables, I had just put new batteries in it, and all cables were tight. Grabed what I thought was the cable on the starter, and it was tight. Went inside and got a mechanic. He came out and jumped it. Same thing. He tried to short the seloniod. Finially he said your starter is bad. He tried some other crap to no avail. Called a service co, to come out and put in a new starter. $250 plus labor. He gets there and about 2 mins later he says your starter is fine. 1 cable on the solenoid was loose, and the ground on the starter was way loose. Tighten them up and she fired right off.:Banghead I said well normally I would feel pretty dumb, but since the bus mechanic wasn't smart enough to find them I don't feel to terrible. He said yea that's why he's a Bus Mechanic! Oh, the service call was just $91 with tax But I guess that's cheaper than a new starter.
I took my son up today, a friend of mine made a phone call for us and the cop was 20 minutes late, calling him a jerk would be a compliment and he still failed him because he crossed over the line by about 2 inches. Just take your time, and don't let the badge get your nervous hes no better than you and I. When i went for mine I had to back through a set of cones that were about 300 feet apart. Now they make it impossible and the sad part is, the guy giving the test couldn't do it if hes life depended on it.
Shifting without the clutch is great and occupies your mind. I learned to do it on scrapers with Fuller RR boxes and older Macks (two sticks) years back. Don't try it on modern syncromesh boxes though!!!!!.......C ya..........Ray
The law up here is if you take any road test in an automatic equipped vehicle, you get a restriction on your DL, if you get pulled over by the Police, and they see that your vehicle is a manual tranny, you are S.O.L big time. But in the Class 1 vehicles, I myself am restricted to an Automatic (I used a Pete with an 18 spd Autoshift) I can legally drive a truck with up to 15 speeds and not worry about the restriction, but if I get caught in an 18 speed, I am screwed. Smaller vehicles it doesn't matter.
I am right there with newbie. I learned to drive by NEVER using the clutch unless I was starting or stopping. Quite honestly the only thing that doubling clutching does for you is to excercise your left leg. If your RPM's are not matched you still have to increase your rev's or decrease your ground speed to get everything to match up. An instructor that MAKES you double clutch needs to drive across a soft field with a loaded ten wheeler and try it. It kills me that many of the over the road guys drive for 6 months, never leave the pavement and consider themselves "drivers". Try pulling a muddy field with 20 ton of silage. It'll never happen. Just my :my2c
Well, just so happens that hauling silage is right up my alley. You wouldn't be the same farm boy from Combine Talk would you? I'm silagehauler from over there. I find the only time when I really need the clutch is to help slide OUT of gear when in a soft muddy field. Sometimes its hard to break torque in those conditions.
The only time I ever double clutched was in my driving tests and then after demonstrating that I could do it, I asked if I could shift without the clutch. I am for not using the clutch whenever possible. Like said before, when in a muddy area or deep sand, you might have to use a light clutch to get it out of the gear it is in before shifting. There are a lot of "tricks" you can use when shifting w/o a clutch. For instance when climbing a hill with a heavy load, the engine rpm (because of the weight of the engine) doesn't drop fast enough to catch that next gear. If the hill isn't too steep, turning on the engine fan helps the engine reduce rpm quicker making it easier to catch that next gear. If it is really steep, you can "burp shift", which is shifting with the engine brake on, but you have to be really careful you don't screw up and blow a u-joint. Another thing I do is when rolling to a stop sign where I don't have to wait for other cars, there is a brief moment right before the truck stops when you can shift into a lower gear without clutching and then start out. If done right, you can't tell that you haven't come to a complete stop. There is this momentary "stop" and you don't ever have to clutch. Sounds like I am lazy, huh.
Using the engine fan to help slow down the engine is a great idea! I end up using the the 3 cylinder jake switch to slow it down, let it pop once or twice to get into gear, and the I like to keep my RPMs low when shifting going uphill or in soft conditions. This may sound backwards, but my theory is that the engine doesn't have to slow down as much to catch the next gear.
Shifting without the clutch is just another form of couble clutching, without, uhh, actually using the clucth! (can I get a "duhh" here?) The concepts are all the same as far as matching engine speed to ground speed, but stomping the clutch in gives you some "slop" room. I prefer no clutch and asked my examiner if that was okay, and he said it was fine. Newbie, looks like you shouldn't have a CDL? Yeah, LOL! you bring up a good point though. Passing your test doesn't really have much of anything to do with driving a truck well or safely or the other things that you'd think it should. Since you are dealing with a government agency, passing the test has to do with doing the things that they want you to do when they want it done- dotting your "i"s and crossing your "t"s. Same way that your Fed Med card doesn't mean you're healthy, but that you've got the right signature in the right place. 12 Wyoming, it sounds like you'll do fine. At least you had some instruction. I really didn't get any before my test, and paid for it by failing the first time!
I've floated gears in everything I've owned, cars or trucks. Guess that makes me lazy too? Why use the clutch if you don't have to? Works all the same anyway, the whole thing is "timing". As long as it goes in smooth, the clutch wasn't going to make it any better. I've done the rolling/stop/float 1st gear routine before. If it works, why not? Sometimes when you are learning something new, it might take a different perspective for you to catch/understand what's happening. Not everyone is the perfect teacher. I've had to bring company trucks home with NO clutch(broken). Get the call, the usual driver at the time didn't have a clue. I drive out, get in, take off and bring'r home without a glitch. Might have to shut it off once/twice if get caught at a light that I couldn't time right, but no problem.
Hahaha, that reminds me of the time when the clutch slave cylinder fell out of the housing on my old ford pick up, while I was still in the school parking lot. Drove home without a problem, and all my friends were amazed that I could do that! But I made it sound really hard so they would be impressed.
I am sure I will be back to floating tomorrow if I pass the test. I need all the points I can get with my driving ability :usa Oh and by the way, If you happen to be in Evanston Wyoming tomorow between 3 and 5 be on the defensive, and Stay out of my way! Lol.
Newbie, you are absolutely right on the low rpm on steep hills and in soft material. I do the same. It makes a big difference. Another thing I do when empty is skip gears. Sometimes I just use 4 gears and sometimes 5. No sense in using more gears than you need.
That's a weird law, down here you can drive automatic for your test and still not have a restriction.
If its a Syncro. type trans I use the clutch- straight gears or twin sticks I don't normally use clutch
Or, try this...only use the clutch to take it OUT of gear, slide it into neutral, and then slightly apply some pressure to the throttle to raise the RPM's, then slide it into the next gear, don't force the shifter, just let it float, you'll get a feel for it, and you'll get a lot smoother shifts..however if you are climbing a hill and under power, don't try this until you have mastered it on the flats.. "This opinion can be ignored at the viewers discrection"
Just wondering how it went? I've been in the DMV office in Evanston a few times. Is it still above the freeway on E hill?
Bob, You mention turning on the engine fan to slow the engine down. Your truck must be equiped with a manual switch ? The reason I ask is because my fan runs all the time and I didn't think that was right. I don't see a switch for the fan ? Sorry a bit off the subject...
Most big truck engine fans are Horton clutch fans (or similar) which engage when the water temp reaches a predetermined number (usually around 190 degrees). Most of these fans also have a manual switch in the cab so you can turn it on manually. My fan is air operated in that it is engaged when I first start it up until air pressure reaches enough to disengage it. You can just look at the clutch to see how it is mounted and determine if it has a clutch or not. If it is direct mounted, then no clutch and it will run all the time. If you see a clutch, then trace down what operates it and start troubleshooting.
It is a Horton air clutch and as long s there is air pressure it is engaged ,cold engine or not. Must be a stuck air solinoid or bad sensing unit right ?
I had one on a truck that was operated electronically, no air involved at all. On my current Western Star, it is probably air switch activated since it is on all the time during start up until air pressure is built up. Once there is sufficient air pressure, it is only on when the water temp reaches 190 degrees or when the AC unit is on which also has control over it. The overide switch in the cab is electronic. I haven't had any problems with it so I have not bothered to trace out how it works. I am still looking for a shop manual for my truck. I did have a problem once with the truck with the all electronic Horton fan. I started tracing wires until I figured out how it worked. It turned out to be a wiring problem. The torque from the fan engaging pulled on the wire harness, which was anchored very tightly, until it separated a wire. I made a new harness and all worked well. Start at the fan, and if it has a clutch, there will be something connected to it to activate it. Trace from there and see what is involved.
I passed! Everything went fine after I blew my first downshift. Tried going from 6th to 5th going down a small hill. Recovered into 4th. After that I never missed a beat. Yes the DMV is still there. The test started out at the county Bus Barn South out in the Yellow Creek subdivision.
Right on.:thumbsup Tests like that really stress me out. Good to hear your good to go.
Congrats on passing the test.
Hi all new to the site. I just recently took my test and the big thing that helped me when double clutch downshifting was realizing that I needed to slow down a lot more than I thought to downshift also that I was revving the engine like a stock car. As soon as I started slowing down more and just revving lightly it was much smoother. As for the test it really was not as bad as I thought.i just took my time and did what the instructor asked. I did downshift frequently to demonstrate but I have to say it didn't seem like he was paying attention to the clutch. How ever the instructor did like to look in the mirror on right turns to see how close to the curb I was which was scaring me Because the new Volvo I was using can't turn for jack shii...
A ten speed drops 5 rpm after shift, a 13 speed drops 3 after each shift, except for that big drop from low to high side.