Hi Guys, I have a circa 2000 d3 Cat dozer that for years started instantly after turning the key. Just recently it started taking 10 to 15 seconds to fire up.Runs normal from then on but will do the same thing after every shutdown and restart,warm or cold. Someone told me to change filters but a diesel mechanic who I respect for his ability says it's most likely the fuel lift pump. Where is this pump located? Attached to the injector pump I see an electric type pump or motor of some kind. Could this be it? Any help appreciated. Attached is a pic of the injector side of the engine. Dan
I believe that is a combination fuel transfer and manual priming pump. Used on some of the D3B's. What you are calling an electric motor is a solenoid operated shut off.
I'm not familiar with that particular injection pump but as Old Magnet says it is most likely right where I circled in red. A plunger type pump working off the cam shaft in the injection pump. Possibly with a full S/N someone might be able to upload a parts breakdown or other information.
The RED circle IS the lift pump.. Check the banjo bolt connector below the hand primer.. it has a screen filter in it.. probably full of sticks & junk.. it unscrews from the bolt.. unscrew, blow it off & reinstall.. Use the hand primer to pump the fuel back up before trying to restart the engine.. & as stated> the electrical "gizmo" is the shut off solenoid..
Ok guys thanks alot. The Banjo bolt you refer to,is that the 1" looking nut facing horizontal below the primer hand pump?
I am trying to understand the automotive inline gas filter to the transfer pump, what would that be doing there?
Looks like someone has substituted a gas line filter for the pump suction. My D3B parts book does not show a filter in the normal banjo fitting and the fitting is an integral part of the line. I'd be suspect of that substitute filter. Here is what I'm working from...
By appearance they had previous issues with trash, added a inline, probably need to clean the tank and lines while eliminating that little bugger. Probably choked up.
If it's "circa 2000" then it's not a D3B, and would most likely have the Perkins engine instead?
Yes.. the 1" looking banjo bolt on the bottom, BELOW the hand primer.. I'v seen those inline filters ALOT.. just make sure the "flow arrow" is going in the correct direction.. TOWARDS the lift pump.. They may have removed the filter screen because it kept getting clogged & installed the inline filter.?? In any case, clean the screen & replace the inline filter w/ new one.. The part # should be stamped on it.. IF NOT, take it w/ you to the parts house..
Need a tractor s/n. Looked up the D3C Series III and they apparently started using the early style pump again. This would be for years 1993 to 2002. This would be on the 3046 engine 5XK1-up. Should have caught the six injector pump initially, oh well!!
That screen is similar to the screen on my later model 931B (without the manual primer) that threads into a hex fitting at the lift pump. It gave me fits a few years ago and I just had to clean it again a couple weeks ago. Engine will get to where it will only idle and die with more throttle. Then get so the machine dies, you let it sit for 10 minutes and it will start again but acts up in 15 seconds. Screen had what looks like ground up tree bark in it.
Your second photo shows a filter marked as 8\14 in magic marker! Almost 4 years ago, its about WAY overdue to be replaced! Start there and see what happens! Also, change automotive inline filter, Cats dont like water!!
True: But my experience with these type fuel systems when slow to start is. 1: The plastic valves in the supply pump are leaking back loosing pressure to the fuel rail (manifold). Check them out and I sand them on fine paper in the field. If in question replace them, their cheep. 2: At the left side of the fuel rail, just below where the injection lines hook up on top of the pump, is the injection pump fuel return line. I believe that should have a pressure regulator in it which is set at about 20 PSI. The fuel manifold should have pressure on it at all times. If it is leaking off either end the engine has to crank intel it builds pressure again. All other things mentioned are good points I would just expect many of them to cause low power not slow start?
I agree, if that's plugged, it will usually start and then die. Take that whole pump apart, everything you see in post #11 and do like Tenwheeler says. If that doesn't help, try priming it before you try to start it, unscrew that knurled round handle, it will pop up, pump that until you feel resistance, then a few more, then hold down and screw in. See if it starts better when manually primed. The banjo bolt is #14 in the diagram in post #11. It's 19mm/ 3/4", or maybe 17mm, not the 1" plug you can see in the pics.
Thanks Ten,That's the problem. It's slow starting but after startup,runs normally with full power. I undid the banjo bolt #14 and the screen filter was apparently missing explaining the reason for the inline filter. So,I think your theory of a leakage away from the fuel rail is probably correct. My question now would be,where is the supply pump with the plastic valves located? Is it a separate pump from the primer pump?
I'd start with what Menace says. Filters are cheap and easy, and even if its not the solution, it still is way over due for a change.
The transfer pump is the block assembly The priming pump is only the little pistn plunger installed in the left port. Nothing electric or engine driven besides.
To explain The block in the picture with that hand primer on it is a single piston positive displacement pump, it runs on the injector pump cam drawing and feeding more fuel than that inj pump needs to lubricate to cool and to keep air out. That entire block assembly is a pump with a priming pump attached.
From what I'm seeing on Old Magnets fuel diagram,the valves that Ten Wheeler is referring to are labeled #3 and there are 2 of them. Are those the ones that should be replaced or sanded down?
Yes. Also the priming pump piston acts on the same pumping chamber and uses the same two valves, if the seal on the priming pump piston is leaking, and you can see that it has in the pics, then air can get in there also. I think they have also seal when the pump handle is screwed all the way down, so make sure that cap is screwed down as tight as you can with your fingers.
I have seen those hand pumps mentioned do that also. The pressure relief valve I mentioned is in the fitting just in front of and below the number 1 injector line. It has a steel and a rubber hose connected to it. I have had a good bit of problems with algae in older machines. An inline automotive filter protects the pump but requires frequent changes. Killem will take care of the algae but then you need to buy filters be the case. The supply pump does not need a filter that fine anyway, just a screen or bird catcher. The big spin on, you are replacing anyway, filters the fuel for the engine. My local fuel injection company sells a clear inline filter with a screen in it. The screen can be removed and cleaned. That is how I would start. 1. New fuel filter and inline screen. 2. Check and or replace check valves, #3. If you sand them that's like 2000 grit paper on a piece of glass. 3. Inspect pressure regulator, I thank it has one. 4. If problem persists replace hand primer pump.
Changing filters as we speak,then removing #3 valves and looking at the pressure regulator. P.S. what should I be looking for on the regulator?
Correct me if I am incorrect but would any pressure regulator be under or in the fittings at the front end of the pump? I do not remember there being one of these, just a flood and flush type systems when in service. May be a discharge check inside the fitting at that front end fitting, look for damage if has one but is on the filtered side of the fuel system.
The valve is located under the fitting just below #1 fuel injection pump. Not much to look for, either it works or it doesn't. Should see filtered fuel but I suppose some piece of junk, rust or whatever could wind up in there. Part # is a 1183818 if needed. Is there a fuel pressure issue?
What is considered is bleed off, possibly trash in the check valves on transfer pump.
Should not be able to blow through it or maybe turn it with inlet pointing up and pore it full of fuel. It should not bleed fuel off in 30 minutes to an hour. You could put a pressure gauge tee in spin on filter hose if you really want to know what pressure is doing but should not be necessary. If you cannot find a serviceable primary (screen) filter JD 5425- 5530 Ag tractors use one with 5/16 ends. Ford ,just before Sterling, trucks with C series Cummings used one with 3/8's ends. They look just like a gas filter, are easier to service than a supply pump screen and have a much larger capacity.
To Tenwheeler,Delmar,Old Magnet et al. I replaced the #3 valves,the whole primer pump assembly #7,washers #5 and filter #13. Thanks to you guys I now have my old Cat back to normal. Starts in 2 seconds. Does anyone have the parts list diagram for the 1078528 injector pump? While I'm at it I want to replace the pressure regulator but need the part #. Thanks again boys,couldn't have done it without you. Dan
Is there any chance of a complete S/N for this machine? Sorry if I missed it when scrolling through the posts above!
Is this what you were asking for?
Or this one of the priming pump?
Yea,the pump breakdown is it. The regulator valve is #43 part # 1183818. I'll replace that too. Thanks KS
They almost never go bad. If they do it is usually a piece of trash, from a filter or hose change, and can be cleaned out.
Well guys,Dozer has gone back to hard starting again,worse than before. Awaiting the new pressure regulator valve. There are two lines leaving the valve. One rubber I assume goes back to the tank. The other is metallic tubing which wraps around the back of the motor. Does anyone know where the metallic line ends up?
Don't think there is a fuel pressure issue because once it starts it runs perfectly.
Good question on the metallic line. Looks like it may be a return line coming from injectors. Shown as hose at the injectors themselves then becomes steel line.
Have you tried priming it before you try to start it? Is there any rubber hose in the suction side of the transfer pump?
What if anything did you do with the inline, automotive gas line looking, filter? Clean out your filter 13 and try it again.
Seems to be a plague of this issue with D3's, same symptoms. No solution yet but collapsed suction line hose and/or blockage of the same 5G4109 screen in the fuel tank are next on the suspect list. This after changing filters, transfer pump valves and cleaning screen in lift pump intake port. Still the same problem, runs for awhile then fuel pressure is lost. Plenty of bleeding and does not have a priming pump.
Beginning to wonder if we are seeing a result of ULSD again. It does seem to tie into many fuel system woes these days. Have wondered if the fuel suppliers cut it back yet again adding some other mystery agent that does not like mechanical systems?
Investigated yesterday,the metallic line does turn into a rubber hose which taps into all 6 injector return ports. no leaks observed. Also have tried priming before starting with no good results. There are 3 rubber hoses,1 from tank to primer pump inlet,1 from primer pump to can filter,1 from can filter to injection pump. Starting to think that injection pump may have an internal leak. All filters have been changed but running after start is not the problem. It's a loss of fuel pressure after shutdown and restart. As of now I'm at a loss to explain this.
Clean your fuel tank out. Bob
What does that have to do with loss of fuel pressure at the injectors?
If the outlet fitting internally is choking up is a problem.
Where is the outlet fitting and is it accessible to be cleaned?
The series III has a water separator back at the fuel tank. Have you checked/changed that?
Not yet,first thing tomorrow
There are only 2 things that hold pressure from the tank to the inj. pump. The supply pump [lift pump] & the overflow valve, located at the return line on the inj. pump.. [the left line as your looking at your pump] Are you holding the throttle wide open when your cranking it?? or leaving it at low idle?? TRY wide open..
If there is a restriction in the fuel supply to the supply pump that can cause it to operate in a higher vacuum than normal. Then when you shut it off: 1 The vacuum is more likely to pull fuel back through the check valves. 2 The vacuum likely causes the fuel rail pressure to operate lower than normal. At operating RPM the supply pump maybe able to move enough fuel but not at cranking. You can also tee in a vacuum gauge in front of the supply pump. 8 is high.
Machine always started within 2 seconds with throttle on low. I will try wide open and report. I'm going to check the water separator at the tank today. New pressure regulator should be in the mail today. Will be interesting to finally find the cause of this. Will report findings guys. Thanks
When you get tired of playing around clean your fuel tank out. Bob
Cleaned out the water separator,found some junk in the glass but not alot. Undid all the fittings and blew out the line to the primer pump. Removed the tank shut off valve and cleaned it out because it seemed that the flow was not what it should have been. Drained 10 gallons of fuel into cans through a sieve. Observed very little debris. Looked into tank with flashlight. Looked spotless from the limited view I had of the inside. Installed new pressure regulator valve. Old ones ball and spring looked ok.Should the primer pump get hard as it pumps up and finally get to a point where you can't pump anymore? When I pump this one I feel the fuel being pumped and the pump shaft gets harder and harder but then seems to go soft until I pump it up again,almost like something lets loose and fuel gets bypassed to somewhere else. The pump shaft never gets to the point where I can't pump anymore. Also,looking from the back to front,the water separator is on the left,there is a small box on the right side of the batteries with two rubber hoses coming out from the bottom and it has a key. Does this have anything to do with the fuel tank? Bluox has said a few times to clean the fuel tank but he fails to explain why this would affect fuel pressure. Bluox,could you please elaborate a little more. You seem to have some knowledge of this problem but I'm one of those guys that always asks WHY?. Thanks guys. P.s after doing what I described above,it starts better but not instantly like before.
Starts the same wide open or low throttle.
How about a picture of the box with two hoses and a key? unless somebody else knows what it is. The pump shouldn't get hard to pump. It should have some resistance as you pump because you're opening the overflow valve once the injection pump, filters and lines are full. If there's an orifice, or the overflow valve is stuck open and there's some air in there somewhere, the pressure will drop while it sits and it will be easy to pump for a bit. You want it to fell steady resistance almost imediately and hold that same resistance as long as you pump. Maybe remove the overflow/return line, put it in a small can of fuel and prime it to see if you have air coming out???
Just replaced that valve yesterday. I will do that test though. When I replaced the valve,fuel was streaming out and didn't notice any air. Wouldn't the air be vanquished after the dozer starts and runs for a while?
Yes the air should be worked out when it's running, unless... The fuel return will tell you if there's air or not. A pressure/vacuum gauge will tell you what pressure the injection pump is seeing. After that, it's time to take it off and send it out.
Priming pump should feel resistance until you reach relief valve pressure. Seems normal. The thing next to the battery with key is the battery disconnect switch. Yet to be checked is the screen in the fuel tank outlet. If there is no provision to remove when the shutoff valve is removed you will have to get access to the tank through the 8-bolt cover. Seems less likely that is a problem since you had good flow from the tank when you drained it if in fact there was flow from the shutoff valve connection when you removed it. What has everybody guessing is why the sump screen #10, does not line up with the shutoff valve #11 and appears to be on the drain valve.?????
Started in 3 seconds this morning. Yea so far. Will run it awhile and see if it restarts the same.
Is this view looking from back to front or front to back of machine?
That's looking front to back over the LH fender
Very nice topic, I am trying to understand this parts..
Thanks for getting back to us. Glad you found the source of the problem.
Thanks for doing a follow up. Its annoying when people leave a thread open ended.
I read this thread through thinking this problem sounded similar to mine D3C 6SL01660 , 3046 engine, It is very hard starting cold, starts right up warm, runs good , with good power..I have replaced the fuel filter and cleaned the water separator back by the fuel tank, if i pump the primer i can hear the fuel circulating back to the tank, I replaced the primer pump, the new one leaks almost as bad as the old one when pumping it...Doesnt leak when running,I replaced the check valve and spring under the primer pump, also replaced the check valve on the pump outlet to filter body,and replaced the check valve on the return line that screws into the front of the injector pump. It was about 30f here today and started very hard, It will fire almost immediately when you start cranking, if you keep cranking it fires less, seem's best to stop and crank again, will fire again.. ................I don't think algae in diesel is a problem here in Northern Wisconsin ?...It does have glow plugs and it does seem to fire better using them, Next step to pull injectors and reseal them ?(suggestion i got on facebook cat page) I suppose that would be a good time to have cat test injectors as well, Thanks for any input !
I'm not far from you. Just east of Bruce crossing. Anyhow, I don't think your D3c has true glow plugs. Only a single intake warming plug. They don't work the best in colder climates. Our D5C was always the same. And the glow plug was working fine. Always needed a sniff of ether when it got colder. But I have a nice older D7 for sale with real glow plugs for you!!
Hi Matt , I'm pretty sure it has glow plugs, has the taped up steel rail with 6 plugs going into the head just below each injector, was yours the 3204 ? This is the 3046, That D7 could get me into a lot of trouble for sure...lol
It does indeed have glow plugs. Here's an illustration of the glow plug group. Maybe next time you try to start it a measurement of the current that the glow plugs are drawing would be a good idea. Suggestion. If you find as much as a single defective glow plug you should really replace all six.
Yep. I see that by niges post. Hope you get to the bottom of it. Maybe it was one of our old D3Bs. Been along time and many machines later. One of them had the intake plug, which wasn't very effective.
Perkins had thermo-start that used a heater in the intake manifold to burn diesel. It works quite well unless it's really cold and the machine wasn't plugged in. I think older Cats mostly used glow plugs for each cylinder.
Indeed the old cats did. But one of ours (must've been the D3B) surely had the intake heater. Which we didn't like. We have a deutz engine right now that works as you said. Kind of a scary concept, but they work good I guess. We don't use it in cold weather.
I've never heard of a 3204 having an intake heater. Early machines were indirect injection and used glow plugs. Later machines were direct injection. My 86 931B came with an ether injection system.
Maybe I'm dreaming. It's possible for sure. It's been many years.
I just spoke with my retired fabco mechanic. His first guess was the same as mine. Our old D5C. If we remember right, it was a perkins engine. Just out of curiosity, maybe Nige can help. He seems to have access to lots of accurate info. It was a 1994 D5C. What do you think Nige? Now it's stuck in the mind. Help!
Glow plugs: Some test methods use an ohm meter test. Good or bad. Do not know if this is a self learned thing, read and or was taught this. Do not trust that. Pull them out and hook jumper cables to them that are connected to a battery. They should heat up in just a few seconds. Do not over do it. Truly good or bad.
Thanks guys, i will test those glow plugs and hopefully find some bad ones !
Its been awhile but I pulled the injectors and had them tested, 3 of them were squirting too soon and dribbling early, I replaced all 6 of them, I pulled all 6 glow plugs and battery tested them as Tenwheeler suggested, They were all good, Still starting hard.....I would say it started the best after i put the new injectors in and bled it at the injectors, Earlier in this thread someone suggested checking the return line for air, Could i pull the return line off and put it in a bucket start it and see the air ?
Yes, use a glass jar half full of diesel, it will be easier to see the air bubbles. How hard is this to start? at what temps? What procedure are you using for the glow plugs for cold starting? What kind of fuel is in the tank and how old is it?
It is very hard starting cold, starts right up warm, runs good , with good power..I have replaced the fuel filter and cleaned the water separator back by the fuel tank, It was about 30f here today and started very hard, It will fire almost immediately when you start cranking, if you keep cranking it fires less, seem's best to stop and crank again, will fire again.......I was holding glow plug rocker for 15 seconds as the book suggested, someone suggested trying 30 seconds, i tried that as well, it does fire better with glow plugs, no doubt , I have probably burned about 40 gallons of fuel in the last month, Running on-road blend for fuel, same fuel i use in our Log truck
Firing right away seems like the glow plugs and injectors are working good, good compression etc. Could be leaking a little air in? The return test makes a lot of sense at this point. I don't know where to check for an air leak, you could try priming it with the hand pump before starting it, if that helps, then you know you're on the right track.
Wow, this sounds just like my D3C 6SL00662. I did change out the screen filter, check valves, springs and connection washers (5) at the transfer/priming pump and---I think that may have fixed my problem. I have only started once since doing that and it fired right up. Before I replaced the parts, it was acting just like Sethmill describes---plus there was a cloud of smoke when it finally did start. I will attach a photo of my transfer/priming pump BEFORE I did the changes and you can see it looks a little "moist".---and the photo was after I dried it off. I think the pressure was slowly bleeding off thru the seepage at the pump making it hard to start the next day. I'll know better if it really is fixed after a few more starts after setting for a few days.
Man, I CANT count the # of times a customer would throw a pump on my counter & be cussing & screaming about how it wont start.. I would go grab my 22mm wrench & while still at the counter, take that banjo bolt out, right in-front of him.. SOMETIMES it wouldnt hardly come out.. u had to push in & out on the bolt to break the sticks that were caught in the filter screen.. & when u show him, he usually says, I'm firing that f'n mechanic when i get back to the shop.. just go thru it & make sure its ok.. I offer to blow it out & he can take it back with him..?? lol.. THAT never happens.. as long as its off, go thru it.. Glad it worked out for u..& nobody got fired.. lol
I tried the return line test to see if i had air , looked good after a couple seconds, also tried pumping the primer pump before starting and that didnt help either... 60 degree here today and dozer started good, Thinking im low on compression...
I finally got the dozer on a job and worked it for a couple hrs. I have a tick when it gets warm, gauge shows good oil psi. Seems like I remember reading about trouble with valve guides moving on the 3046 ? Or maybe broken valve spring ? Any thoughts ? This may tie in to my poor starting.
Has anyone checked the valve clearances recently..?