So i bought a new little Case 450B dozer, 6 way blade in Pretty good shape, low hours. All she needs is a little paint and a couple pins. Everything works on this dozer and it is solid as a rock and has a 70% undercarriage under her. She has been very well taken care of and maintained with records/invoices to show. She does seem to have a tiny bit of blowby, but i am going to do an inframe and head job on her within the next month just for a peace of mind. I just bought a Gearmatic 19 winch for it online this evening. It comes with the winch, adapter/bracket and controls with lines. Plug and play ready. I red a few things on them afterwards and came across a statement that a man posted and said- quote below '' '' adding a model 19 winch to a case 450 dozer causes a power loss of up to 15-20% horsepower due to it being a constant running pto '' '' Could this be true?!? I couldn't imagine it causing that kind of power loss due to a ''little extra dead weight ''. Any input is valued as i just spent a pretty, shinny little penny on this complete winch set up. Thanks in advance fellas.
Humm... that's a new one. You might see a minor loss if the machine was on a dyno, but I don't think I've ever noticed the difference when operating. Winches do change the balance of a machine, that's is a fact. Regardless, should you ever get anything stuck the winch is invaluable. Whats your source on this supposed loss?
Stumpjumper That's what I was thinking, I'm sure it will put a slight bit more load to the engine but I wouldn't think it would be to the point it was noticeable to the naked eye. Elaborate a little more about it changing the balance of the machine if you dont mind ? Do you mean balance as in center of gravity ? Negatively I would understand that as it weighs in a little over a thousand lbs. I bought the winch because I use this dozer to skid timber out of places I cant get my 4x4 tractor (widow maker hill sides). So I don't want to negatively impact its performance as far as power. My source is a random guy posting on a thread pulled from another site when I started randomly goggling Gearmatic 19 winches. I will try and see if I can find it again and post it.
When your PTO is turning the bevel gears, the clutch system, and everything in your Gearmatic Model 19 is turning except for the drum. That's what makes it a live winch. It takes a fair bit of horsepower to turn it. It's especially noticeable when accelerating like running up an extra heavy flywheel. By the way the Model 19 was of the most cankerous logging winches every built. In the morning you had to normally hook them to a tree and pull them out with the machine a few times before you could even pull them by hand. You will certainly be the man to beat at the arm wrestling contest if you use it regularly. The predecessor Model 9 and the later Model 20 were both excellent winches which free spooled easily. Your model 19 has good power and will drag your 450 all over the woods though when stuck. I disconnect the drive shaft to the winch on my 666D Ranger grapple skidder as the power turning the Model 20 on it is very noticeable behind the 453 Detroit. I stick it on and exercise it every few months as the brake cylinder type controls go bad and don't work if not exercised occasionally.
I myself would have doubted a (live) winch drive train could rob so much power .... I certainly get the idea the extra mass (inertial effect) when trying to accelerate the engine but other than friction or hydraulic losses it seems there should be minimal power loss and said power which is lost would manifest in heat .... but this is why I like this forum since many times actual experience wins out in the debate where "I figgered such and such" and other 'educated guesses' would otherwise be accepted. The balance of the machine is a topic which arises occasionally and I was concerned about this too, so I didn't look at small dozers with an empty back (those w no winch or no rippers) and also when I called the sales office at the dealer they didn't have a recommendation for a weight if there was no such accessories thus my recommendation is to have something on the back ... and this is based upon 'I figgered so'. You mentioned blowby: not sure if you see blue smoke at exhaust or puffing out the breather or such smoking at cold startup, but on machines where the injectors were pulled and then as found bench test showed a little low and then new tips installed and shimmed to the correct pressure along with bench rebuild and calibration of the pump, the blowby symptoms reduced greatly leading me to conclude a small amount of non atomized fuel makes a difference ... according to some folks, not that much that they would worry about it as long as oil consumption was fine.
Is there any other model winch that can be mounted to a case 450B ?!? I still have time to cancel the purchase I think. Did I just wast 3 grand on junk ? Is the winch gonna rob me of power to the point of not skidding timber as well ? As long as you have the front of log(s) off the ground this little dozer WILL pull and pull hard. Now I'm not sure what to do. Should i just cancel the order, put another 5 grand with the 3 and buy an old log skidder ? I found a couple around 8-10 grand. OLD-IRON-HABIT > It sounds as if your in the timber biz as well. Would you happen to have any advice for me as far as direction from here? Keep model 19 or cancel and try to find different winch or forget winch all together and try to buy skidder ? I only have a few extra grand to work with as of right now so ''nice'' skidders are pretty much out of the question. Thanks everybody.
I grew up in a logging family and it's in my blood. I manage hospital projects for my real job but I still cut 400 to 500 cords each winter to satisfy my lumberjack craving. I just use it as an excuse to buy more toys. I'm not sure him many are down your way but small cable skidders have been reasonable here the last few years. A crawler is a tough way to log compared to a wheel skidder. Frozen ground will tear your back out. There are plenty of older C4 and C5 Treefarmers, also Clark's and Timberjacks around, and lots of smaller John Deere's also. The John Deere's are easy to get dealer parts, the rest use common components that can be readily found. I've seen some machines down your way here and there over the years that looked good, but just to far to go look. I had one I let a buddy play with in Michigan's U.P. last winter and told him I would not sell it to him as I had not had it long enough to be sure it was good. This spring unannounced, I got a check in the mail with a note saying its staying. It was a nice little International wheel skidder. As far as your model 19 as long as you give it a few pulls each morning it will work. All the loggers around here used them for years, you just get used to pulling hard and try not to stop until you got to the farthest log. Parts are available for all of them. As far as power does your PTO drive straight of the engine or through a torque converter. If direct your winch is coming in at good speed or not at all. Driving thru the torque you can engage it and speed the engine up to winch. Gives more finess on the winch and a lot easy on the winch drive line. 3,000 seem high to me. I have a Gearmatic Model 20 setting in my machine shed that I offered to a local fellow for $1500 with control but he has not been able to come up with the money.
Ok, so I did some research on the 19 and read TONS of extremely negative posts about them. Almost everything I read was not so good... soo... I cancelled my purchase of the 19 : ( They said my money will be back in my account within 48 hours. I thought 3 grand sounded fair because it had the bracked/adapter i needed for my 450 already mounted to it plus the controls. I could have got other 19 model winchs for cheaper but then was gonna have to hunt down the adapter. OLD-IRON-HABIT> do you know if the model 20 will mount to the same bracket ? I cant find much on the 20 If it will mount up I'll take it off your hands at that price. If you come across any skidders online or so at a really good buy let me know. There is no such thing as a good buy on a skidder here local it seems. A small 60's model JD skidder thats completely wore out still brings 17-18 grand locally here that is. I dont mind to drive for one at the right price. Drove 12 hours one way for my semi and drove 8 1/2 hours one way for my 450B and 3 for my 450 track loader but , they were all really good buys and worth the road time. What to do now.....
These might be a little large for you, but Tidewater Equipment has several 170 Franklins in the $7500 range.
Well i could make a 170 work as I would still have the 450B and 795 4x4 for those really tight spots. I guess Tidewater Equipment doesn't post there cheaper low end skidders online ? I checked they're website out and couldnt find nothing under 50, unless I searched wrong. Will try again. If I could find a 170 for around 7,500 that can be put to work and fixed up as she is worked I'd be in GOOD shape.
There are logging auctions here every month or so as another one quits. Check out www.reinhardtauction.com . The Franklin is built with standard manufactures components so parts should be available. I not know off the top of my head if the 19 and 20 mounts are the same. I'll get over to a friends and look at his 19 that hangs locked up on his grapple skidder and do a little measuring.
Mitch504 > I take that back,The 170 is a tad bit to big for me around here. I thought they wher a smaller unit. Old-Iron-Habit > That would be much appreciated. What i did read is that the 20 is a better winch than the 19 so if i could make it work, that would be awesome. If it wasn't for the ******* that stole my identity I would go and get a good used one and just finance it. But that is out of the question as of right now. Its taken months now to clear up what some jackass did to me and my credit . Will eventually be fixed but its a loonnnggggg process. Everything i have I've had to save for and buy in cash, which has its benefits as well because of no monthly payment but its hard to save cash for a 30-40 thousand dollar skidder, for me anyway.
OLD IRON HABIT> Could you post a few pics of your model 20 ? I talked to my local machine/ welding shop today and they said they would weld up and adapter/bracket for me at a really cheap price. Bracket with log arch and everything for 3-4 hundred bucks. So my options have opened up a little bit, im hoping anyway.
I will take some this evening when I get home.
Timberking What do you think of logging with your 450? I have a very thick, hilly wet clay 5acre woodland property in TN and have tons of dirtwork to do for my 1/4 mile road cut and house + shop sites. Nothing here is flat and during winter no vehicle can be driven in the fields because of the clay and sidehills on most of it. I own a '79 case 450A crawler loader with 4in1 bucket and pin on extenda-hoe. Great machine for its intended use but the pads are too mild and machine too topheavy for these woods. A wheel skidder is out.. The 1200 acre tract being logged across the street is on hold for months because they just cant move in 3ft of clay soup, those are brand new skidders with perfect rubber. After seeing that Ive decided a dozer is the right choice for my hobby logging operation and that it must be 6way blade with a winch. What im torn on is whether to go with a case 450 or not. Ive only got an hour of use on my loader, bought it up north and parked at my dads, still need to haul down. But it seems handy to be able to rob a part off my other to minimize downtime if needed. Downside is the case machines are real awkward to operate and almost impossible to finesse especially in reverse. my place is so small that knocking out good sapplings ive kept after meticulous TSI would really bug me. Trying to maximize my land not wreck it. Flip side of the coin is im under the impression only the Case can have power to both tracks through a turn and they dont have stuck brake and clutch issues like other old machines in my sub $10k budget. Does a case outskid any other comparable machine in practice or just on paper? Here where the soil makes traction critical it seems like power to both tracks is worth the hassle of driving those awkward lungy gearboxes. I presume my loader is like all the rest.. It moves in 4inch bursts that you really notice when trying to get on or off the trailer. Am i wrong to assume two tracks drivin is substantially better than one for skidding timber out of soft ground? Do they ever become second nature to operate or are you still having to think about what to do for a turn while reversing?
Yair . . . Dunno . . . . . I have no knowledge of Case but to me this would be totally unacceptable and suspect the machine (or operator) has "issues". I have seen similar with a completely normal power shift machine when the operator was unaware of correct technique for inching. Cheers.
If you put my machine in low range and engage both tracks in a direction it will start walking immediately even at idle. So hold both brakes down, put in gear and hold still. Start easing foot pressure off the brakes and itll hold hold hold then kinda suddenly lurch which makes you get back on them more and kinda stop. Mine is not a finesse machine when you want to clear something by a few inches. Put another way, lets say the machine moves at 2mph in lowest gear at idle. If you want to move at 1mph its challenging.. Youll get more of a 0mph .. 2mph.. 0mph.. 2mph Im told thats just how a case is and i believe it
Yair . . . . Gotcha mate not disputing it but man that don't sound right . . . only Case I ever worked with (never ran) was back in the seventies placing sea wall sections with a jib, the counter rotation was magic for positioning. Cheers.
Yeah i tried out a td25b first but passed over its issues and transport expense. Bought the 450 because it was an exceptional deal and i could haul it with my current fleet.. But man i hate to say that enormous binder was more precise.