O.K., guys and gals, I'm looking for some tips and tricks here on drilling track shoes (or track pads to some of you). I've got a client who owns an early 1960's D4C. He wants to buy some new D4 track chains I've got in stock. However, the track chains I've got are 5/8" bolt holes for the shoes, and he wants to use his old shoes, which use 1/2" bolts. I've told him it's easy enough to drill them out to 5/8" size, just takes a little bit of boring work (yeah, pun intended). However, he's a bit unsure as to how to attack the actual drilling. I've told him, use a cobalt drill. I'm guessing there's some tricks as regards lubricant to use, too? I'm all ears to anyone who's done this, or had experience drilling hardened steel. I seem to recall the shoes are at least 52Rc?
I would try a two flute concrete hammer drill, sharpen the carbide on a diamond wheel. I have done this to drill hardened steel before.
A mag drill and an annular cutter is the best option. You should be able to rent one. The mag drill should hold strong on the flat side. You need a way to hold the pad from moving. If you had a heavy welding table you could use a couple Bessey clamps or C clamps to clamp the pads to it. It would be nice to make jig for drilling the pads. If you had a heavy angle iron or a spacer for a piece of 1/2" plate you could make it so the pads fit under it and the mag drill clamps on top. A couple stops at each end so the pads are all aligned the same would make things go faster. You'd have to move the mag drill for each of the 4 holes but it would still be faster than manually aligning all 4 holes on every pad. Using a lube stick (wax) will help drilling and keep the cutter sharp without making a big mess like cutting fluid. I used a mag drill an annular cutter on high tensile truck frames. It went through like a hot knife through butter.
Dave, how do you start and keep an annular cutter centred with a mag drill? You'd need to fabricate a cutter-centering jig, wouldn't you? What about the Artu carbide drill bits? They appear to be able to drill holes in nearly anything. Problem seems to be I can't find Artu carbide drill bits in 5/8" diameter size. I was originally thinking an M42 (8% Cobalt) drill bit, but even M42 bits in 5/8" seem to be scarce. Keep in mind, this client is on a remote Australian Station (Ranch), he's 400kms from a major centre one direction and 240kms from a major centre in the other direction. So, it's not like he's got a handy rental shop just in the next suburb. He's probably got an old drill press in the Station workshop, and that's about it.
It wouldn't be that hard to make up a little spacer that slides over the annular cutter pilot pin and slides inside the existing track shoe hole. Once you are lined up lock down the mag drill and bob should be your father's brother.
Good luck that is going to be some tough drilling
I've done this a time or two and it's not as difficult as you'd think. A two flute carbide spade drill will make short work of it in either an upright drill press, or vertical milling machine. I like to use a mill as positioning is very straightforward. Clamp securely, and bore slowly using recommended sfpm of the carbide grade with steady point pressure and speed using flood cooling.
I've not actually done it but I seem to recall folks using "bridge reamers" with success.
Track pads are harder than most tool steels and due to production tecniques they tend to be unhomogenous... and they were punch drilled, maybe one can bohr one easy and the next one and head hache. i can´t see it as an easy task with out a jig bohrer, and an insert drill, or one can use an 5/8 HSS twist drill and fabricate a guided tool, just dont know if the mag drill can press it dwn, cause in the jig it will work. Anyway i had done lots of things with the mag drill myself that others considered impossible. Another solution would be bushing the chains , i bet u can find a lot of SS stell pipe in the 5/8 OD with 1/8 wall , it would be much faster and easy job...
I like the bushing idea but using metric size pipe to get an interference fit. 16mm o/d is .125mm bigger than 5/8, Bore size is 12mm which is .7mm smaller than 1/2 inch which will require drilling out to 1/2 inch. No special tools needed
For coolant, I would use a soluble oil mix. Mix some up in a drum with a threaded outlet. Then put a tap and hose tail onto the outlet, Get some wire and jam it up the hose to make it stiff and bendable. Then position the hose where you are drilling and put the coolant onto the workpiece.
Thanks for all the input fellas - I must say, I do like OM's advice on the bridge reamer. However, the majority of the bridge reamers available seem to have a 1/2" reduced shank drive, a Morse Taper would be better, but the MT drive, 5/8" tapered shank bridge reamer that I found locally, the seller wants over AU$150 for it! The Chinese 5/8" bridge reamers with 1/2 shank drive are around AU$30, but some do have flats on the 1/2" drive to prevent slippage. One could purchase 5 of the Chinese 1/2" drive ones, as compared to the MT drive one, and I don't think one would wear out 5 Chinese bridge reamers on 144 holes. The majority of the reamers all seem to be Chinese origin, anyway - and they're all HSS or M2 (Cr-Mo-V-Ni) steel (M2 grade is called 6542 in China). Haven't found any tungsten steel reamers, which I thought someone would make. My tungsten steel taps and dies are far superior to any HSS taps and dies. I'll keep searching. Re bushing/sleeving the track links - yes, we've considered that, too. The problem there, is just how many useable 1/2" bolts will remain of the originals, after removal. These are 1/2" track bolts that have been there for over 60 years - so I'd estimate possibly one-third of them won't re-useable - because the threads often gall due to corrosion upon removal. That's if they can be unscrewed. The gas axe might be a better option. Then, steel tubing isn't cheap, around $150 a 6M length, and it'll need most of a 6M length for the bushings/sleeves. Add in 144 cuts, plus fitting them, a few hours labour there. We can acquire new 5/8" x 2" track bolts and nuts for under AU$2, purchased in bulk, so I think the carbide drill or bridge reamer, with possibly a days labour drilling/reaming, plus all new 5/8" bolts, is looking like the cheapest/easiest option.
MSC isn't the least expensive place in the world but they do sell good stuff. https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn?navid=2107190&searchterm=Spade+drill&refinements=Diameter+%28Decimal+Inch%29%3A0.6250 https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/92520568
If you used a mag drill or found an adapter to use an annular cutter in a drill press I think if you took a 1/2" round bar that fit relatively snug in the existing holes you could chuck it in a lathe to get a center for the pin on the annular cutter. Once lined up just take the bar out. Do the holes need to be slightly bigger to fit the 5/8" bolts? Using a bushing in the track links would only be 1/16" wall which would be pretty flimsy.
Also would be very quickly beaten out if a track shoe became loose. Pipe is far too soft to be used for a bushing unless an interference fit.
Dave, 5/8" bolts fit easily through a 5/8" drill hole, the tolerances in bolt shank dimenions are pretty loose. The bushings would work, and would be even more secure, if stainless tubing was used. Personally, I'm not in favour of bushings, and the reason is - the potential requirement for a sizeable number of new 1/2" bolts, due to many of the old 1/2" bolts not being re-useable. I cannot recall any time we did a track shoe changeover (to new shoes), with the same bolt size, that we ever used any of the old bolts - simply because the old bolts were beaten up and new bolts were relatively cheap. After you've struggled through 144, tight, rusty or galled threads on old bolts, new bolts look like a no-brainer. 40 years ago, most of the track shops here wouldn't even bother with trying to unscrew old bolts, they would simply gas-axe them, and fit new bolts. Heads on old bolts get worn out of shape, and you need a selection of undersized sockets that you usually need to hammer on, to get them to grip the head. The heads not only wear in across-the-face dimensions, they wear tapered, from top to bottom of the head.
I don't know if that means they're punched from the factory, but I'd look into that, find some place with a scotchman punch press and see if it's possible to get them punched relatively accurately. Maybe a fixture to hold the first punched hole so the second lines up perfectly.
I've had a couple of instances where bolts were too tight in a hole the same size as the shank. Generally the holes are 1/16" bigger and as I discovered with the ripper larger bolts over an inch the holes are 1/8" oversize. I wouldn't think track pads would be that much oversize but a little bit. If the bolts were too tight in the hole could affect the torque value. If you found a fabrication shop with an iron worker they could punch the holes. Hydraulic Ironworks like Scotchman are slow compared to the old mechanical iron workers but still fast. In order to punch the holes you have to make sure the wipers fit tight to the part when the punch comes back up or you'll break the punch. It shouldn't be an issue with most track pads but a triple grouser might not have enough room.
Something to consider. I have used a carbide burr chucked in a cordless drill to enlarge holes in cultivator and chisel shanks made of spring steel. It worked slick and was fast. Use a tree shaped burr for best results.
A carbide burr in a die grinder would take forever for 144 holes and hard to have the holes centered. The other thing is zillions of hot metal filings everywhere. If you're not real careful the burr can catch and go all wonky. I would think new track pads would be put in a punch press and all 4 holes punched at the same time.
The holes would certainly have been punched simultaneously, originally - but before the shoe was heat treated. It's the heat treated steel we have to deal with now. I do like the idea of a carbide burr - but I reckon it would wear out more than one, doing the job. I can recall lending one of my good Garryson carbide burrs to my workshop neighbour, a truck mechanic, so he could enlarge many holes on a truck chassis. It took him quite a while (with a hand-held drill) and my burr came back considerably worse for wear! I wasn't too upset, Joe was a good and helpful neighbour otherwise, and I owed him for help he'd given me. At the end of the day, the amount to be taken out of the shoes is only 1/16" in depth all round - so it's not a huge amount of metal - nor would centering be 100% critical, because the links are often not positioned with deadly 100% accuracy on the track pins and bushings, anyway.
This job could easy take 15_20 minutes a plate , could you not find the buyer a set of chains with half inch holes
I'm not sure how hard of material an iron worker can punch or if they make special punches for harder materials. I know some punches are tapered so they aren't trying to do the full size all at once similar to how a shear works. Grader blades and I'd expect things like dozer edges and end bits are also punched. I'll have to do some looking to see how hard of steel can be punched. I'd also think older pads wouldn't be as hard as modern ones. Found reference to dozer end bits being punched but not sure if it's before heat treating. I wouldn't think track pads are nearly as hard as they are readily weldable with standard 7018. It's not uncommon to see bent track pads indicating they aren't super hard and brittle. High carbon and spring steel can be punched. You have to use a multiplier to figure out the tonnage required. Heating the material to a dull red will make punching easier as well but I'd suspect pads could be punched. Best bet would be to check with an ironworker manufacturer like Scotchman, Piranha, Peddinghaus or a number of other brands. They've likely encountered a similar application. It's possible a fab shop may have experience with track pads too.
Gents , Pads / shoes whatever are of special kind of steell. Otherwise they would bend and brake and it would be a mess expecially walking over stone and so on. Factory will stamp or cast or use other method , but in the end everithing is made on cold steel, after will have to be heat treated and normalized, and this is where things change. Heat treated parts can be punch holed , but the machine and fixture to do such a job is expensive and not all machine shops have it, wich add a cost, a job like this may result more expensive than buying the chain already padded. between having chains in the 1/2 or pads in 1/8 certainly is all about the cash spent in the end. regards
D4 track chains with 1/2" track shoe holes were obsolete at least 25 years ago. I think even D4 track chains with 9/16" track shoe holes could be on the endangered species list. I'll talk to the gent who's purchasing them in the next few days, and get a handle on what kind of capabilities he's got on the Station (Ranch). There won't anything like punching equipment, or iron working shops within hundreds of kms of his place, and he sure won't want to be paying a shop to enlarge the holes, the old D4C is just used as a Station hack, for clearing fencelines and dozing up a bit of dirt here and there. It's certainly not a prime income earning machine, as you'd expect with a machine produced in the early 1960's.
You may be right with the cobalt bit being easiest after all of this. Certainly worth a try for the price of a few top of the line drill bits. Easy enough to find the pressure and speed to use, I wouldn't know. The best advice I can give is stop immediately when the cuttings stop being uniform and re sharpen. If a regular drill bit won't do it, I've used a carbide masonry bit for a single hole, but for this I'd see if you can find a custom bit where a 1/2" shaft is the pilot and side carbide cutter makes the 5/8" enlargement, like a mini boring bar a line borer would use. I can't find anything like that. Another possibility would be a carbide replaceable tip drill, I've never used one but they seem aimed at that sort of material, about $100 american,
A taper reamer is another option. You'd just have to put some paint or something on the reamer at the right size so the hole isn't too big. They work good on high tensile truck frames too.
Slip a piece of pipe over it as a depth stop.
Try it with a slow speed drill and a tapered burr. You'll be impressed with how it works. I agree a die grinder would be a disaster. How hard are the track plates?
They're fairly hard, they're boron steel, and heat-treated. I STR they're 52 Rockwell, and up to 58 Rc on the grousers. Naturally, the hardened depth is limited. They can't be too hard, just toughened. A burr or bridge reamer will work on them, just not real fast. I reckon a cutting paste like Trefolex would be a good investment. Trefolex's performance in drilling and cutting is exceptional. There's a previous thread below on how the shoes are actually manufactured. How do they make dozer tracks and shoes Anyone know how track pads are made? Track links? Just curious HeavyEquipmentForums
Reamers are used to remove small amounts of metal or fix minor misalignment. They are not for changing a hole from 1/2" to 5/8" Super Dill might be another option. I have seen one used, never used one myself.
Tapered reamers will easily take a 1/16" cut all around. When they mounted extra plates on truck frames for winches they used a tapered reamer when the punched holes from the ironworker didn't quite line up. They also worked if the holes were out quite a bit. As long as the reamer could fit through both plates it would remove material so the bolts would fit. A wax type lubricant would definitely help.
This drill looks like the ducks guts. I just bought a hole saw set, this would have been perfect for what I wanted to do.
You have never seen them at the usual rural expositions? They have been around for at least thirty years or more. At the usual places like the beef expos or the farming expos there would always be the company there with a drill press drilling holes with one of those gadgets. They are probably even more useful today with the advent of cheaper mag base drills, which sort of take away the need for your typical drill press.
Super Drill & adaptor pack Large metal drill bit www.toolking.com.au Any machinist or serious metal worker would want one of these. The price, for what is seems reasonable, I don't know what shipping would be to the USA but drilling things like track pads and the like this would pay for itself in one set.
A bridge reamer is a whole different animal, different from a normal reamer. It would work, however, the taper can be problematic. I will suggest a core drill, to open up those holes.
I'm having trouble finding a core drill that is 5/8" diameter and capable of drilling hard steel. Most are larger size and only designed for tiles and concrete. I did find some Chinese ones, but I couldn't be sure on their ability to provide satisfactory service as regards drilling track shoes. The Super Drill Bit by ToolKing looks good. Despite RC saying they turn up at every Show and Field Day with a drilling display featuring their product, I've never seen or heard of the product before. I don't think I live under a rock, I go to a lot of Shows and Field Days to see the latest and greatest - but I've found a lot of Eastern States products no longer make it to the West, no doubt because of the costs involved. I've also found the Shows and Field Days are now becoming a lot more "corporate-oriented", with lawyers, grain dealers, financiers and other corporate hangers-on, putting up large stalls - while the old-style family-farmer-oriented stalls with small tool deals, innovations, and other useful knick-knacks, have all but vanished from Shows and Field Days. I guess this is because farming is now mega-dollar operations with large corporations now holding huge acreages. Just saw a former farmer client put his 7000 acre farm on the market for $20M, which just blows me away. This blokes father got nearly all their land for around 25c an acre from the Govt in the '30's to the '50's, and even 30 years ago, their farm was only worth a couple of million.
With something like a bridge port with a DRO, hold it in a vise, use a pin to align the first hole. Then I'd try a solid carbide end mill the correct size to plunge with. On a CNC I'd probe and interpolate the proper size.
The Superdrill is very handy. I have a basic (smaller) set,but large is available. I always keep a few spare cutters & 1/2 or 13mm drill bits for the pilot hole. I usually order online. A mate of mine in Perth might have a few D4 chains for sale,if it gets too hard.
Goes to show I should never assume. I just thought they would be all over the country peddling their wares, especially because for farms it is a pretty handy tool. I have a bridgeport clone and they are not rigid enough for that, it will just wobble all over the place, plus a 5/8" carbide endmill is like all carbide metal working tools, fragile and very expensive. The end mill itself would be a couple of hundred of our dollars for a name brand. Plus if it broke, how would you sharpen it, if it could be sharpened. On top of that OzDozer said the job is to be done on a rural property hundreds of miles from anywhere. Had a look and yes they look different, tapered and all. But that would leave a tapered hole as well. Also there are a lot of holes. four holes per pad, and how many links, and two chains. Something like 368 holes to do, if they are 52hrc at least on the surface, which is reasonably hard (a file is around 62, and 4140 steel is even around 30hrc in the usual bought state), I doubt the reamer is going to last long. By core drill I assume you mean what we would call a rotabroach. again an expensive tool, not going to be able to sharpen it on site, plus it will need a custom made pilot made. I am still leaning towards something easily resharpenable with a bench grinder, reasonably priced and will open up the existing hole in the same position it is in now, so either self centering or has a pilot guide.
A slight taper may not matter much if the hole is very close to the bolt size. The pads could be done from both sides to lessen the taper if desired. A tapered reamer would be worth a try. An annular cutter is similar to an end mill but is hollow and cuts more like drill bit. If a spacer was used that fit the centering pin it would keep the bit from moving around. I think there are carbide annular cutters too.
An annular cutter is not worth the effort, with only 1/16" to come off each side of the hole. The bridge reamer or the Super Drill Bit look like the answer to me. The cutter on the Super Drill Bit only has to be dragged a few times over a diamond lap to sharpen it.
Tapered holes, yes, that's why I suggested the core drill instead. Core drills are normal (usually MT) drills with 3-4 flutes, originally made for opening up as-cast "cored" holes. Easily hand sharpened much like a normal drill bit. Not a rotobroach by any means.
OK, I have not come across them before. They look like the tool designed for the job. Norseman Type 134-AG 5/8 www.mrmtool.com
Just measure your bolts before you order 5/8" vs 41/64" or whatever.
I only mentioned it in reference to a suggestion of using and end mill. I don't think the taper from a bridge reamer would be a concern. You could take a little cut from each side and the taper would be negible. If the pads were held in a vise it would be easy to go from each side. A bridge reamer would center the hole and could be used in a hand drill. A variable speed would be nice because you could control the bite so it didn't try to break your wrist.
I rather hope one of these work , My son has to replace his D47U chains sooner or later and we've given no thought to the problem Trade Me www.trademe.co.nz can be bought for a third of the price and gather a few would be needed
No they will not work. I would not waste my money. They are for light metal removal like burrs and such.
A carbide burr would take a long time and hard to keep the hole round.
I'm going to run a die grinder bit to see what can be done . I've been asked if a little heat in the hole would lose enough temper to use a drill , not much material needs to be heated . I have used a die grinder to shape teeth after they were replaced with weld , biggest problem was slipping and taking too much off . The scale of doing 70 odd plates runs into a weeks work no matter whats used
If they aren't too hard for a bridge reamer it wouldn't take that long to do them. Less than 5 minutes a pad.
I’d go a boron drill if the cost isn’t too much. Whatever you try keep it cool, even running a hose while drilling. Sound crude but it’s heat that kills most cutters and drills.
How do I acquire a couple of those Norseman Whole Hog core drills in 5/8"? The M & R Machine Tool site says nothing about their shipping policies, and whether they ship internationally or not. I can't find any Australian company importing or supplying them. I tried to buy them and their site said free shipping for the purchase of 2 of them, but when I went to pay with a verified PayPal account, the site said no shipping option was listed for my address. The owners of the site obviously think the civilised world ends at the shores of the Continental U.S.
If you have problems let me know, I'll get them ordered and ship them to you. I have friends in Alice Springs and have shipped them many antique Mack truck parts. Takes a while to get there of course, but Parts have always arrived safely.
Try here.... McMaster-Carr McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day. www.mcmaster.com
Plenty on NZ Trade-me site , Aussie companies sell on it . Not so many fit a standard drill bit though . Four pages of bits . Usually takes a week for parts to land in NZ , then the fun starts , currently I have a Kioti wheel tractor diff testing patience thats been in NZ since last Wednesday not here yet Trade Me www.trademe.co.nz
So what's the answer to this one? Joe H
I've arranged for 1693TA to acquire a couple of the Norseman core drills for me, as I can't find anyone in Australia dealing in them. This choice was made on the basis the Norseman drills are a superior alloy steel to HSS, and they're specifically designed for hole enlargement. Hole enlargement is very hard on regular drills because there's major load right in the outside corner of the leading edge of the drill. Hopefully, the Norseman drills live up to their promises. This is not going to be a fast project, just the lead time in getting them Down Under is probably going to be nearly a month. I'll update with further news as we progress.
Some of the wax type lube should be good for those core drills too.
It's been several years since I sent anything to Australia but it used to get there in a week of less via USPS priority mail. Things change I guess. Joe H
I ordered a pair of Redback boots from a tool truck. Waited months and gave up. Ordered them online direct from down under and got them in less than a week. I'm curious how this project comes out.
I see most of the ideas are for making the holes in the shoe larger. But what about making the threads in the chain smaller? Like with a threaded insert? E-Z Lok Self Locking Thread Insert, 1/2-20 Internal Thread Size, 5/8-11 External Thread Size, 5 PK 319-820 | Zoro Order E-Z Lok Self Locking Thread Insert, 1/2-20 Internal Thread Size, 5/8-11 External Thread Size, 5 PK, 319-820 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account. www.zoro.com Might have to use a fine thread 1/2 bolt but would any of these inserts be usable?
The rails/chains aren't threaded. Even if they were drilling them for inserts would weaken them and I doubt the bolts would stay properly torqued. Track bolts take considerably more torque than standard bolts and keeping them tight is paramount. If they come loose and aren't caught right away, it is usually almost impossible to get them to stay tight. Then the pads basically become scrap if you planned to use them when replacing the chains.
The cheap and easy fix is to torch the holes bigger put in and tighten the bolts. If they get loose tack weld the bolt heads
I like to think we're a bit more professional than that technique. Once you start welding things into position that have to come apart later, you're simply making for higher costs down the line. Plus, items welded into position, where the design calls for bolts, means that all slight movement flexibility is lost, and you're forever finding those welds are cracking.
Yes it is a crude way to go but. I don't have the time to have a machine down and out. All mine are old and most of the bolt heads are worn off and the nut sides are also about ruined. Welding the bolt heads works, they don't come loose or Crack. A lot of old parts have elongated holes so you do what you have to Do. I have learned that you can't be afraid to use a gas axe and most of the BS about this special metal hardness and that is just that. When in doubt, Double it and then weld it again. A welding machine is my best friend. Works for me. If you don't get them drilled out what is the plan...
On a different note, it is opening day of whitetail season here in the south... I am enjoying not listening to the drone of a diesel engine!
Torching the holes to fit new rails is a really sloppy way to go about it. You'd also use a considerable amount of oxygen and fuel gas. I think it would be slower than reaming the holes and I'm pretty good with a torch. Welding new bolts is also a pretty redneck way of keeping them tight. From my understanding there isn't a huge rush to get the machine back working. I think OzDozer has the right approach with the Norseman bits designed for enlarging holes. If it was 1 or 2 pads that won't stay tight is one thing but a complete set on both sides using new rails, do it right.
It's is all going to depend upon those track shoes. If he got a real good set of hardened pads then ... Maybe they are standard made in chi n a cheaper softer metal. Which seems to me what is easier to come across now. Did they test the pad hardness with a standard hardened drill bit? I have one set of old cat pads that I shot with an armor piercing 556 round and it did not even dimple it.. I know guys that are ruining newer under carraiges and in 2k hours the soft metal is, stretched out and worn down. I have a mill and I have had my fair share of shattered bits and slightly worn bits. I would probably get the one dull bit with the hardestest set of pads ever made which would take me right back to ground zero or the vise would come loose and I would snap my new bit. I am patently waiting to hear and see the results he has with those bits. When all else fails do what you have to, to get it done. I figure $500 worth of ox/acetylene, $100 in diesel and $100 worth of Welding rods would fix the issue and 3 days of labor. Which means the customer would need to pay at $2500+ to have those pads mounted up. The last set of pads i took off had to have all the bolts cut off. The 1" impact was not up to the challenge. So to me that is a mute point. Heck we are on page 4 with the best suggestions on hef on how to fix the issue
These track shoes (there's two different early D4 tractors involved here) are all genuine, original Cat track shoes. We're all basically restorers, this is all genuine antique Cats, no Chinese steel involved. I have a stack of new Berco D4 track chains that I acquired in a deal, and 2 clients have each purchased a full set of these track chains for their old D4's, so they can get their old Cats back into good operating order. We've got to wait for 2 weeks for Norseman to get the drills in, the 5/8" drill is not a stock item. Then they have to get shipped to me down under here, so at least another 2 weeks again. Plus, we have some delays with new track bolts, there's 2 complete sets of track chains involved, so there's 560 new bolts required as well. The old bolts are pretty much toast, from what my clients have indicated, and it's rare to be able to save old track bolts. New bolts and nuts are around AU$2 each, so it's cheaper and easier just torch the old bolts, drill the shoes, and fit new 5/8" bolts. So as you can see, this isn't an urgent deal that has to be finished yesterday, none of us are in any hurry - and on top of that, I have to readjust the number of track links in the chains, so I'm currently fabricating a 50 tonne portable track press, so I can do that. By the time the Norseman drills arrive I should have the track press finished, the chains shortened or lengthened to the required number of links, and my clients will then be able to proceed with shoe drilling. They will each be doing the drilling themselves, it's not economic for either client to send the shoes out to get drilled, nor even fit the bolts - they're both just interested in keeping their track upgrade costs down to realistic levels, and do as much of the work themselves as they can. The big undercarriage companies here are spoilt, they expect a minimum spend of $10K or $20K per job, because the big mining companies order that level of expenditure here on a daily basis, so little guys like us are a joke to them. I had a set of good used D7E/D7F/D7G tracks a year or so ago, and the bushings were a little worn, so I enquired about carrying out a pin and bush turn on them. It took a week to get a reply, and I got quoted AU$11,000 for the P&B turn!! So, essentially, they weren't even interested in the job.
Here is another thought a good friend of mine has a plasma table. He cuts serrations in motor grade blades for me. The machine indexs itself to the part and can follow a curved blade. He makes a CAD file and then it just repeats itself and it does not matter where the part is on the table once the sensor finds the corner. If the bits don't work out. You could look for a shop that has a laser or plasma table. I know if I were doing it not in the field with a oxy/acy torch, I would either do that or use my hand plasma torch. They charge me $10.00 per blade to do repeat cuts. And it cuts a pretty nice slot. Right now I am working on a rural track that is a 160 miles out from me and I have to fix everything I can on site... it is a pia
If the pads are hard to drill then you could try annealing the edges of the holes by heating them red hot and letting them cool before drilling. Pads are harder steel but they're also weldable so annealing should work if required. Hard cutting edges are drilled easier by annealing. I think with a good drilling lubricant and the right speed the Norseman drills will work. Better to be liberal with the lubricant so the bits aren't run dry. That's where the wax/stick type lube would be an advantage. If you can't find the wax type putting the liquid type in a pump oil can would be the next best option. Using a drill press would allow for keeping the bit well lubed.
The bolt heads have to be cut off it will heat the plate enough anyway .
The norsemen holehogs, have a minimum starting hole size for 5/8's of 25/64. So if I read your post correctly you are starting with a 1/2 which should be good to go.
The track shoes planned to be drilled use 1/2" bolts, so no problem as regards the minimum starting hole size. Early Cat D4's used 1/2" track shoe bolts, then Cat went to 9/16" track shoes bolts in the 1960's, and then upsized again to 5/8" bolts around the 1970's. New D4 track chains with 1/2" track shoe holes are obsolete, track chains with 9/16" holes are hard to find, track chains with 5/8" holes are the most common variety. Cat have been building D4's since 1937 and the track pitch has never changed from 6 3/4", nor did the track shoe bolt pattern change. All that changed on the track chains over the decades was the track shoe bolt hole size, the height of the rail, and the depth of rail hardness. Cat improved their rail hardening depth ability over the decades. The old D4's these guys own have quite satisfactory condition track shoes, so it makes sense to re-use their old shoes. There is very little available here by way of good used undercarriage for older tractors.
If he has a plasma shop or water jet shop nearby, simply bring them by for that, they will make a jig and pop them out in less than a minute each. That said if there isn't he may still be in business if he/ you knows how to do precision layout and make a jig and has a handheld plasma cutter. Take your plasma cutter, measure the head, and figure out what size hole you need to stick it in to cut a 5/8' circle. then layout your plate and drill/machine your plate to four holes that diameter. place plate on the track plate, and burn them out. You may need to clean a little slag out with a stone but will be way faster than drilling and or boring and cheaper. Everyone says use a carbide drill but unless you have a very rigid machine and vise, your gonna chip that carbide. I have a knee mill and I wouldnt do it on that, this is large ass drill press with mechanical downfeed territory. If tracks are 50-55, your cobalt drill is not gonna touch them.
He's already decided what he's going to try. A shop would charge plenty if they had to make a jig and man handle each pad a few times. Hand cutting them with a plasma torch would be a pain in my opinion. I'd prefer a standard cutting torch over a plasma torch because you can see a lot better but would still be a pain with 144 holes. Waiting to hear how he's making out.
As I understand it, Cat say in the original specs for the grousers that they're around 52Rc. But I don't believe the metal in the shoe around the hole area is anywhere near that hard. I've spoken to the owner of one of the old (1960's) D4C's who's on the station (ranch) and he told me he'd already been drilling some of the shoes with a carbide drill (in a simple drill press), and it was working O.K., but it was slow, and the carbide needing resharpening pretty regularly. He expressed great interest in, and got me to get him, a couple of the Norseman drills. As I think I've mentioned previously, the Norseman drills are designed specifically for hole enlargement. The problem we're having at present is the 5/8" size drill is not regularly stocked by the reseller, and they're having to wait until the factory do a production run. That was supposed to be a couple of weeks ago, but the deadline passed, and the advice then was, the production run had been delayed. So, we're just sitting on our hands waiting for Norseman to get their act together. As previously mentioned, this guy is in a remote location. Think of the most remote location in the continental U.S., then add a lot more miles to reach civilisation. He doesn't have anything like a waterjet cutter within probably 500 miles of his location, and any shop with plasma isn't much closer, either. I recently had some contact with a waterjet cutter in the city, when I wanted to cut the 50mm (2") plate for my track pin press. They claimed they could only get within 5mm accuracy (approx. 0.2"). On my larger 50mm plates, that wasn't a concern to me, but on a hole enlarging project where we're going from 1/2" to 5/8", with a substantial degree of repeatable accuracy required for a tight fit for the track shoe bolts, I can't see where the waterjet accuracy would be good enough. On top of that, the waterjet cutters wanted a CAD file - and all I had was a cardboard template, being "old school". I wasn't about to invest in CAD file programs and getting taught how to use them, just to cut a couple of pieces of plate! I'm an old dog, and I can't be taught too many new tricks. The waterjet cutters certainly weren't interested in converting my template to a CAD file, they obviously saw zero profit in a "handyman" job - and rightfully so. All the plasma cutting I've seen, has had a substantial error margin in the work, far more than a drill. So I can see the Norseman drills being the only suitable simple solution at this point, purely because of economics, remoteness and a lack of "developed" facilities, and because the Norseman drills are something the station owner and his employees can use with their current equipment.
Hopefully you'll get the Norseman drills soon.
Dave - Yes, we're looking good at this point - another member of HEF has messaged me to say he's found 2 in KS and he's happy to purchase them and forward them to me. Just have to confirm they do actually have the 2 in stock.
Excellent!
Torch if you're decent with one.
Get Issac, IC weld, on you tube, best man with a torch I have ever seen
Torching holes larger, and a requirement for tight-fitting bolt shanks are not two compatible moves, IMO. We're talking about taking out 1/16" of metal, accurately, all round the holes. Slightly oversize bolt holes in track shoes, means you will never be able to keep the track shoe bolts tight. There's action happening on the Norseman drills - factory advises they've been shipped to my helpful HEF assistance man. He says he'll likely have them Friday 24th Nov., and they'll be on their way to me shortly after. I would hope they arrive by mid-December.
They could be torch cut but setting up a jig to do them accurately would be more trouble than it's worth.
Yea I dunno why OzDozer does not just channel the skills of the Pakastani Truck Repairers. To fix anything you only need an angle grinder, transformer stick welder and oxy. The way with just a single welder and angle grinder they rebuilt the splines that the sprocket presses onto on the final drive hub of that D8K was just amazing.
Dunno, have done it on logging equipment without issues. Granted shoes don't last terribly long before they break or bend on stumps.
They are adapt at getting by, Maybe where the old adage 'I've been doing so much for so long with so little, I'm now expected to do absolutely everything with nothing' came from.
Put in its most simple terms. Some people have standards, others don’t.
I was very lucky i got to work for a couple guys that could do about anything but they also know right from wrong.
We can see the YooToob repairs done by the Pakistanis, but we don't see the short lifespan they get out of those gyppo repairs. We've all tried to cut corners, it never pays. There's nothing like doing the job properly, so the item meets the original standard, and performs like the original. The Pakistanis old Cat gyppo repairs can only fail with rarely anyone getting hurt - but I wouldn't want to be sharing the road with some of the trucks they repair. You gotta remember, this is the place where the newspapers stated a few years back, that they'd only report road crashes where more than 20 people were killed in the one crash, because the smaller crashes where only a few were killed, were taking up too much newspaper space.
I especially like how they gather around out in the front yard in the dirt, around a pan of dirty fuel and reman those big diesel truck engines. It's always a pleasure if they take the crank shaft into the back room, weld on the bad journals and re-cut them on those antique (well worn in) laths. Makes me wish they had a shop closer to me.
O.K. - Houston, we have the rockets fully fuelled. The 2 x 5/8" Norseman drills arrived a couple of hours ago. Unfortunately, against the shipping aspect, I had a deficiency in communication with my helper, with regards to the shipping method. I assumed my shipper would get useful advice from USPS, but he got a complete bum steer, and got told a whole pile of rubbish about USPS shipping methods and timing - whereby he got told it would take 60 days to get Down Under - so he shipped the drills air freight, and Fedex reamed me senseless, with no lube, and not even a thank-you kiss. We live and learn. And I've just had another lesson re assumptions. For general interest, USPS do Global Priority Mail parcel boxes in a range of sizes, and they're much cheaper than anyone else, and the items only take about 14-21 days to get Down Under. The small Priority Mail boxes start at about US$30 and they'll take up to 4lbs. The large boxes take up to 20lbs. Fedex ripped me off for 5 times that USPS charge, for just 0.7lb in weight - but I will give them, they delivered within 7 days. The Norseman factory took nearly 6 weeks to do a production run of these drills, so that's where all the delay came from. Now, all I have to do is get them to my client, another 1,120kms (695 miles) away, so he can start on trying them out on the track shoes. I'm still preparing his track chains, to make up 2 x 36 link chains for him, from a mixture of track chain lengths I've got, so he's got some time yet, to drill out 288 holes in 72 track shoes! I'll ask him to send me some photos of his success rate with the Norseman drills. They look promising. They've got four very business-like-looking flutes, as against the 2 flutes of regular drills, so I guess that's where they get their "Premium" description from.
I would be reminding the driller that if they want the drills to last, flood the area with cutting oil (I am sure they will have heaps of sump oil or gearbox oil lying around ready to return it to the earth) and when they do it and slow and steady.
Oil is a lubricant, water is a coolant. Needs cooling more than lubricating. Add washing soda to tap water to mostly eliminate rusting, does leave white powder. Those look to be what we call core drills. I'd probably start about 125-150 rpm.
It needs both, getting this wrong out in the way out outback has consequences. Bad ones. So flood the oil, and keep the speed down.
The wax type lubricant would work good. It comes in a tube that looks like a tube of grease. It's commonly used with annular cutters as it doesn't fling off. As far as FedEx they have some ridiculous charges that other carriers don't have.
The proper way to quickly and accurately solve this problem with a torch is with a tapered drift. Heat the edge of the hole till its red and hammer a very lightly tapered drift in it till a 5/8 bolt fits nicely but not to snug. I worked at a quarry and we had to drill hard plate all the time. It was less than pleasant. Usually you would make a red circle with the torch to soften the material and then use the mag drill to start the horrible task of drilling the hole in the bugger. Boss told me if he ever seen me torch holes, I was in big trouble since poopy holes and vibrating crushers/screen/shakers will eat the bolts alive. I showed him how I would torch a nice round hole and then get it red and clean it up with a tapered drift to its final size. He was super happy with the FAST and EASY results. I NEVER had to pack that dang heavy mag drill up on the shaker boxes and conveyor chutes again. I use this method on TONS of things. The ONLY con, is the edge of the hole will get a slight swell right at the lip when the material is pushed round/up. I tiny bit of work with a flap wheel/grinder will leave you a nice flat edge again. Its super easy and very quick. Just my $0.02
Maybe wait and see how the Norseman enlarging bits work before suggesting they won't work. 244 1/16" larger holes very accurately cut with a torch would be very difficult. Heating them all up red hot to pound a punch in would also be a bit tricky and expensive. Do you heat a hole hot enough to stay red hot while you shut the torch off so you can grab a punch and hammer, set the torch down while still lit and grab the hammer and punch or do you leave the torch on while a helper goes behind with the hammer and punch? If the Norseman bits work would be the easiest solution even it takes a little bit longer than conventional drilling. If the bits are at all similar to annular cutters they might work even better than expected. You don't need to use a mag drill but you probably could.
Heating holes on the edge is fast. Its not like trying to get a raspberry in the middle of plate steel. A dozen circles/swirls around the hole, set the torch across the corner of the table with the tip pointing at the ground and then hammer a drift in. Worn D4 pads are about .25-.325" thick. I didn't say it was a better method, just another option. I just know that my experience with enlarging hardened holes with a drill bit style cutter usually leaves me with a bunch of bits with the sides stripped off and the corners chipped off of them no matter how much oil and how slow I spin them. Just my experience. I hope the gent in the outback can just chuck up these magic bits a swirl thru them like butter. Unfortunately the pessimist in me is not so optimistic, lol
I believe I will give this a try next time I need to open up a hole and see how it goes. I have a few nice drifts, that have been sitting in a machinists tool box that I bought. I have never put them to use. Thanks for the idea.
Curious how the Norseman bits are working?
Dave, the end-user has not acquired the drills from me just yet (nor the track chains, either), the project is going slowly at this point. Hopefully, I'll have more information next month.
I was wondering the same when I saw your post in drilling tricks thread. Joe H
Joe, things have slowed up because I was all set to have my clients track chains ready just after Christmas - then I found about 8 cracked links in one of the chains I'd prepared for him - so I had to pull out another track chain and prepare that one as a replacement. In addition, we're in the middle of Summer and I don't like working in 40°C and 42°C heat any more, 40 years ago I would be doing it, but not now. We've had a very hot January. Add in I had to have a tooth with a busted crown extracted, it broke off so then I had to visit an oral surgeon to get the tooth root extracted. He had to cut and peel back the gum, then stitch it up, so that cuts out heavy exertion for a week or two. Hopefully, I'll have the track chain set finished by mid-to-late-February and we'll have some action then.
I had to get a tooth pulled a few weeks ago that had had a root canal in the past. The crown was loose and not repairable. It's never exciting having work done in your mouth. Dreading it is more common.
Send some heat this way, don't need any dental fun though, keep that. Joe
Oz, any news on this project? Finished or gave up? Joe H
Hi Joe - I've spoken to the guy and he's in trouble with an extended drought, and having to reduce his cattle herd, and hand feed the few he wants to keep for restocking when it rains again. He said his last rain was in April 2021, so it's a long time between rains in his neck of the woods. I've got his set of D4 track chains ready to go, and he's paid for them, and I've sent him the drills. However, he still hasn't organised transport for the track chains. But he says he's got no time to work on the D4 at present, and he won't be working on it for at least 2 to 3 months. So, things are on hold until that time. He wouldn't have a lot of labour available to him, most of these remote stations (ranches) are run just by families. He might get some rain next week to ease the pressure on him, the weather pattern is shaping up to give him some rain. There's been a lot of rain recently through the centre and Eastern parts of Western Australia, but he's up near the NW coast, and all that rain missed him.
Sometimes the equipment has to take a back seat.
O.K. - sorry for the huge delay in getting back onto this - my client finally got his replacement track chains from me in late March, they sat around for a little while, until he could get into his D4 track rebuild, and he has just come back to me in the last couple of days with an update. He received the Norseman drills from me around the same time as he got the track chains, and he's been drilling the track shoes this past week. He says the Norseman drill is performing very satisfactorily and he's done 30 shoes so far and the drill is just at the point of needing sharpening. He sent me a quick video of his drilling effort, I think this link should work. 404 File Not Found - Jumpshare The file you are looking for does not exist. jumpshare.com Here's the near-new SALT chains I sent him back in March. He was pretty pleased with them, I guess they look great, compared to his worn-out ones!
Outstanding, almost half way with the first bit, guess those bits were worth the wait & cost. Holes are to spec ? The way that shoe is dancing makes me wonder. Joe H
Is he using any lube/coolant with the bits? It would improve the cutting and the bits would last longer before needing to be sharpened.
The video shows he is doing it in a bath of soluble oil.
Joe, I believe the hole specs are not particularly tight (good pun there?) with regard to bolt shank clearance. As he's only taking 1/16" out of the holes overall, I can't see where there will be any problem. The two greatest problems that must be addressed with fitting track shoes are; (A) ensuring the links are pressed together accurately. So therefore, a plate jig with bolt projections must be used to ensure the bolt holes in the links are the correct spacing, if any link removal/replacement is carried out. And (B); It's critical to ensure that the mating faces between the links and shoes are spotlessly clean upon assembly. Any dirt or paint left on these surfaces will crush down when the tractor is in use, and the result then is loose track shoe bolts, that can wallow out before they're noticed. I acid-bathed the track chains and then power-sanded the shoe mating surfaces on the links, then greased them to prevent any further rusting. The track chains were stored in a port storage yard for several years, and were suffering from a degree of surface corrosion, so I made sure they were cleaned up. The only part I could advise him as regards the drilling process, is that I'd be using a securing device to hold the shoes firmly. Holding onto items you're drilling by hand, is fraught with danger. The risk of personal injury rates pretty highly with that style of technique.
I've had the drill press knuckle wack a few times but still do it. Looks like he's doing OK though and those bits are designed to not grab so he'll probably get away with it. Joe H
I see the coolant but it's not being directed right at the bit. There doesn't appear to be any coolant on the bit in the video. The pad is sitting in a tray of coolant but the level isn't high enough to submerge the pad where he's drilling. It would keep the pad cool but isn't doing anything for the leading cutting edges of the bit.
Dave, the tip of the drill is submerged in coolant, and because its turning at the slowest speed he can gear down to, the heat buildup isn't quick, nor a major level of concern. Plus, the coolant bath in the tray is ensuring a constant resupply of the coolant, as fast as it's pulled away from the drill. For sure, if he had a coolant pump and hose, he could direct a good stream on the drill bit - but he's working with what he's got, and a coolant pump obviously isn't on his priority equipment list.
It would prolong the bit life if the pad was fully submerged. That type of coolant is generally used to continuously flood the cutting tool. He is making pretty good progress though.
Dave, let it go man. Nobody is disagreeing that coolant/oil on the drill bit is the proper way. Its just that most of us make do with what is available to us. I tightened a whole slew of bolts today with an adjustable wrench (Cresent wrench) why? Because it was a pain to get to where the bolts were and I didn't know what sizes I would need to tighten. Making 3 or 4 trips would have been been rough in the heat. An adjustable wrench can slip into my back pocket and 20 minutes later, I was done and coming down. Not ideal, but I got it done. I also wrote down what sizes they were for next time. Maybe I'll remember my note, maybe I won't. Same with this gent drilling the holes. If he gets them all drilled at the expense of 2 or 3 bits for a one off task, so be it. He isn't a machinist trying to minimize his tooling cost. He's still getting a set of tracks for way less than hiring it out to a dealer.
I wasn't trying to start an argument. I was just suggesting a little more coolant so the pad is completely submerged might help the bit stay sharp longer. Cresent wrenches do come in handy at times. Like when you have to crawl under something to stop a leak but don't know the size of the bolt or you don't have a large enough size of normal wrench. I used a 12" Cresent wrench to loosen the solenoid stem on a hyd. valve because I didn't want to spend $40 on a wrench for a one time deal.
Video link says file not found.
Yeah, sorry about the previous video link no longer working, I thought Jumpshare would keep it on their site for longer, they dumped it within a couple of days! Such are the joys of free video hosting sites! Lets see if Vimeo keeps it up a little longer for free. There might be ads with this link. Cat D4 Track shoe drilling... Vimeo vimeo.com
YouTube
I got a snout on YouTube, they block me from watching their vids, because I've got my ad-blocker on! It's a sniper war between me and them, as fast as I find a way to kill their ads, they find a way to stop me from killing them!
Oz what ad blocker do you use? I have adblocker + and ghostery and never get blocked or see ads , might be different over there. Steve
Steve, I use Adblock Plus and Ghostery, it seems like YooToob tries new techniques every week to beat the adblockers. I can watch YooToob videos sometimes, and Adblock cans the ads in milliseconds - other times I get the message, "Adblockers are banned on YooToob!", and the video won't play.
I use Addblocker Plus on Firefox with Protons free VPN . Sometimes I have to move to a different VPN address like this morning for to access the free Komatsu's parts lists . Interestingly AB plus says its blocking 8 adds on this page . Very seldom do I have U-Tube problems unless the uploader has the video country restricted , but often I'm able to access clips not able to be seen in NZ unless a VPN is used . The combination of all three work well for me , whats more I use the free versions .
I use Rumble. Never had any problems like utube and add blockers. Removed the app on this phone and just bookmarked all the channels I wanted to watch. No logging in to utube for me. Firefox w/ghostery and ublock. Zero ads and no nagging.....
Every now and then I find the adblocker has been turned off and ads start appearing Must be during an update and somebody decides my brousing experience will be enhanced by all the garbage.
I never needed a VPN to get access to the Komatsu Parts Book. Komatsu online parts catalog komatsu parts catalogue, komatsu parts book, komatsu parts search, komatsu parts numbers, komatsu parts database www.k-part.com
Well, I got another update. A mutual buddy (Steve) has been up on the Station (Ranch) helping the D4C owner, Jim - because Jim is under-staffed at the best of times. Steve sharpened the Norseman drill and laid into the track shoe drilling, and the track shoes are now all finished, and ready to go on the new chains! He said Jim sold him his 2nd unused Norseman drill, because it was obvious now he didn't need it - and Steve is buying a set of D4 chains off me too, for his D4C, so he needs to drill all his D4C shoes, as well. Some of those shoes look like they've been loose sometime, I hope Jim can get them smoothed out and snugged down tight. He is using all new track bolts. I'm guessing Jim might also be planning to do some work on that blade, right after the tracks are finished!!
I highly recommend a HSS bridge reamer,none of my favorite brands is Champion. You should be able to get one new for around $50-70 bucks and it will last the life of the job. I actually find using a good air drill helps extend the life of them because they will stallbinstead of catch an edge and chip like a high HP electric drill. This is basically a perfect world scenario for a bridge reamer, you already have a sizeable pilot hole made and you only need to remove 1/8" of material, this job should fly. I use bridge reamers for alot of heavy truck frame work and such.
You can get bushings that will fill the 1/8" gap in the rails, then just go back with 1/2" bolts. They are plenty big for a D4. Make sure those new rails are the correct pitch.
We've been through all this in previous posts. The Norseman drills are perfect for the job, they are specially designed for drilling holes oversize. The shoes are all done. Bushings for the links are a dead loss, they will pound out. The later 5/8" track bolts are bigger and stronger, the originals were 9/16", not 1/2". The new rails are exactly correct for the D4 (6.75" pitch) - we've been doing this for many decades, we're not exactly YooToob amateurs who want to entertain the clueless masses with a "will it start??" feature-filled video.
I do not know about anyone else, but I sure am sick of those stupid click bait youtube videos with their idiot presenters who know next to nothing but have more money I suspect often inherited then brains. Some click bait title expressing some stupid dramatised event then usually with a picture of the creator with their mouth wide open like they are ready to catch a fly or they rode the short bus to school. Yea I am getting old and grouchy now. Soon to be renamed Oscar.
The problem with you tube is too many think they are Hollywood directors and people want to hear them talk endlessly. Supposed to be video about how to use a certain piece of equipment but there's 15 minutes of babbling while they are driving to the site, 5 minutes unloading the machine and then maybe two minutes actually showing the machine working. Total waste of time you can't get back.
You both forgot to mention, the camera focussed on their silly grinning face, for 95% of the footage!!
D. Hurd pops up frequently..... I tried (not very hard) to watch..... NOPE!!