Dump truck build? Currently looking to upgrade trucks, my old 88 Mack single axle is on its last leg, and impossible to find parts for. I've been looking for mid 90's tandem trucks. I don't think I need a tri axle for what I do. Mostly septics, we have a good hauling company here and can beat up their trucks. I need it to haul equipment around and occasional load of sand In Mi here we can only gross 48k in a tandem dump, 57 in a tri. I found a 92 l9000 , 3406 425hp engine, 13 speed. Jake, lockers, clean truck, needs paint. 16k front with 385 tires. 40 rears, walking beam rear. However the truck is a tractor only, guy also has a 13' bed for it, and air operators exchanged pto, I would need valves, and a few little things and attach the box to the truck. And build a rear hitch plate. And paint the box and truck. Everything else I have been finding is 12k fronts with little tires, and 300hp 10 speed trucks. Which I do not think would work great for a truck. Here is the truck and box Like I said needs paint, and work to attached, for how the tractor is speced, seems like would be everything I want in a dump. I'm not looking for a 16-18' tri axle long truck. I do tighter jobs and a truck that is a little shorter would work best for me and I can still haul 13 ton on it which would be about my legal max here. Any thoughts or I'm crazy? Thanks
That would make a good truck for limited use. I have a 1990 LT9000 (not the set back axle) with 3406 350 horse and an 8LL. It has a 14.5' box and 16 front and 40 rear on walking beam. It's a good truck and gets around well. The one you have should get around even better. They are getting old, but Fords are good trucks and if taken care of will go a long time. FWD
To me the key is the condition of the truck. I have built 3 dumps out of highway trucks over the years. If the truck is in good shape it would make a nice truck for you it looks like. I have always double framed the trucks I have done from the front axel back. Some guys don't but I think its a good idea. Keep us posted.
There a re a lot of things to consider with that tractor. First, I think that it has great specs. But it looks like a short wheel base. While this is great for maneuverability (especially with a set back axle) it can present some weight issues if it's too short. You said that you can gross 48k# in MI on three axles (steer axle plus the tandem). This may be true but every state that I have ever run my trucks in also specifies an axle spread for you to obtain maximum GVW. This is often referred to as a "bridge gap". It is the distance between the steer axle C/L and the C/L of the tandems. IMHO a truck with a 13' box may not be quite long enough to have the optimum bridge gap. You also have a set back front axle and this will reduce the wheel base even further. I apologize if you have already done your homework on this but you didn't mention it when you made your GVW comment. IMO the Cat 3406 w/425 hp is a great engine. A 13 speed transmission is also great but not necessary. Vocational trucks will often come with 8 speeds (and much less HP for that matter). The 13 speed should allow (not sure if I have seen every brand of 13 speed ever offered) you to "split" the upper gears. This will probably only come in handy on long, steep grades (note sure that it matters much to a "Gonian", or "Gander", since MI is not known for it's mountainous terrain [here is my attempt at some humor]). Otherwise it will probably only be used as an overdrive in top gear. The only downside I see to it is that it will almost double the cost of replacement (over a 10 spd) when the time comes. The walking beam (assume Hendrickson) is a great dump struck suspension. It will articulate well (keep traction on uneven ground) and is very stout. About the only maintenance issue with them is the main bushing. When it wears out you will likely have to have it replaced professionally. On the upside to that is that it is a very common suspension and there are actually service providers that specialize in them, they are often mobile (at least this was the case in So. Cal. when I lived there), and it is not hugely expensive. One downside to the walking beam is ride quality. If the beam is under a spring stack the ride quality will be a little better. The whole "ride quality" issue is really only apparent while unloaded. If I was driving the truck I would consider adding a cab suspension. You will also need to modify the brake system to a "truck" system. This usually requires a different tractor protection valve and the addition of another set of "maxis" (pronounced maxiies) to the back. A "truck" must be able to hold it's GVW, on a certain grade, with the parking brakes. A "tractor" does not because it isn't loaded unless it has a trailer connect to it (which usually gives it the additional parking brakes required to keep it from rolling on said grade).You have not said how many miles, or what condition the truck is in. If I were buying a used truck, I would spend a few hours crawling around under it, or hire a competent mechanic to do so. I would also strongly consider oil samples from all compartments (be sure to drive it and warm up everything before sampling). Tire and brake condition should also be considered. Neither are cheap! The bed looks good from the one photo (as does the truck) but I would be concerned about the floor. I would even want to see the bottom of the floor. Does the gate latch work or is it rusted to the point of seizure? What is the condition of the hoist seals? You mentioned a PTO ("and air operators exchanged PTO") so I assume you know you will need one , and a reservoir, to operate the hoist/lift system for the bed. Air cylinders for the gate latch would be nice but not necessary. I would also want to convert the tarp to electric or air if I was the owner. Farmerlund mentioned double framing. I have often heard this mentioned, and I'm sure it has merit, (it would be a consideration for me if I was ordering a new truck -or maybe a wider C channel frame member), I think this would be very expensive (pretty much have to dismantle the truck) and I don't think it worth the $ if retro-fitting. My rationale is: That I have not personally broken a frame (and I even operate extended frame dump trucks); Expense; A rigid frame can be at a traction disadvantage if not coupled to a rear axle system that does not have good articulation (would probably not be an issue with a walking beam as is the case here). The only drawback that I can see to buying the Ford is similar to what you mentioned about your Mack. Some parts may be exclusive to the Ford and difficult to locate and/or you will pay a premium at a Ford dealer. Said parts will be in the cab (obviously) and maybe things like the alternator, steering box, etc. If the condition of the truck is good, and the price is right (along with considering all of the above) I would seriously consider that truck. As you said it is speced well for a dump truck with the possible exception of the wheel base (when considering bridge gap). Good luck.
What is there about your Mack that you can't find parts for.Where are you looking?Ron G
Thanks for the thoughts. I went and looked at the truck today and spent a lot of time in and under and around it. It is clean, way cleaner than anything else I have been looking at up here in the last 6 months. To address some of the questions. Between front axle and first rear wheel is 12' so should be fine for bridge law, Front axle may be more than 16k, tag in the door faded but it has dual steering boxes. So that's a plus. Engine started good and warmed up and little to no blow by. Truck has 404k on it. 13 speed shifted well in all gears and Jake worked. I know it's more than needed but better than the 10 I see in most tractors and even a lot of dump trucks. Walking beam was tight, I had him make sharp turns while watching the bushings. Truck has air ride seat and air ride cab. As far as brakes and tractor control valve, looked the same as on my other truck and would just need to run the lines to the rear. Has separate trailer and truck air supply. No major oil leaks, just some accumulation around front seal and one side of the pan. Bed was pretty decent for how bad the paint is. Comes with the tank and hoist in one unit attached to the front. No idea on seals that's gonna be a guessing game. The rear gate seemed to move will need air run to it. Bottom of the box was wavy, and 99% of every truck I have seen is, but cross members were very straight and solid. No holes in the floor or no major dents anywhere. It will need a new tarp which I will want electric for anyway. Truck is double framed to just over the rear axle. So should be just fine for adding a dump. As far as parts. The Mack had less than 500 or so made of my style, the l9000 was produced for a long long time with many many trucks on the road so finding stuff shouldn't be near as bad. Attached are some photos. I would need to notch the frame to attach the dump hinge. Install pto and pump, which comes with the truck, air operated, just need the switches and valves. And build a hitch plate and a lot of paint to clean it all up. And re route the exhaust.
Also some one added a side hinge to the box so if you wanted. You could open it as a side barn door style gate which could be handy.
Looks good . I was going to suggest looking at trucks set up already & compare cost of the conversion . http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=5001101 If you like it and the price is rite then go for it .
That truck is on my watch list. Lol 12k front, ten speed road Trans and 100 less horse... Make it a little less desirable, However price wise would end up possibly close to the same. After paint and welding to attach everything. I found a similar white gmc, 16k front 385 axles. 300hp cat 3306, 8ll Trans 15' box in so so shape. He wants 17 for that. Similar mileage, no Jake brake, needs paint as well, and tires and brakes are close. Choices choices...
The White / GMC looks nice . I went the opposite direction when I started out . Bought a tractor / lowboy first . Then a short steel dump trailer later to haul material with . http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6096119&dlr=1&pcid=2000780175 http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6839599 It worked good for my little operation . You can get in some pretty hairy places with a short dump trailer .
That's not a horrible idea, however I don't think I want a 50 year old dump trailer!!! Lol
Ok price wise. I can't get him less than 15k on the l9000 and dump box and pto. He would give me 2000 trade for my old Mack. Plus tax, it's a small dealer guy. The white is 17k lowest he would go. Everything else in my area is 20 plus and light duty fronts. Or a beat up tri for 20 another l9000 as well. 15 too much?
If you really like the L 9000 tractor it's probably not a bad deal . The bed looked pretty good . Gonna mount it yourself ?
Don't like those old school steel dumps ? We always figured after it made it 50 years it's probably good for 50 more . LOL Have a 1961 21 foot Trailmobile steel dump that looks allot like the Dorsey in truckpaper . I like the short sides on them as sometimes we load with a skid loader or farm tractor . Very stable when dumping .Good old trailer . Newer version of it , http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3455751
Hmm good point. You do have me thinking for sure... I'll do all the work but the actually welding, I have a big mig, but would assume you would want that tig welded? Same with the backing plate for the hitch. Paint and hooking everything else up I'll take care of,
Even has a air ride cab. Looks like it will make a nice smaller truck with good tow capabilities. Especially of you can do most of the mounting of the box yourself.
I stick weld most of the time on projects like that . 6011 & 7018 rods . I didn't like the way my Low boy sat behind the KW after mounting the fifth wheel plate . Lowboy sat high in the front so we cut the original gooseneck beams off & added new ones on top to correct the problem . Old school 1951 Lacrosse .
What does your '88 Mack look like (what condition)? I think the price for the I9000 is good but I'm not excited about the trade value for your existing dump truck. Is it a dump truck? I'm not in your area but that just seems very low to me ($2,000.00?).
I think older trailers usually come with wedge brakes. Some even had them into the eighties. I wouldn't be too excited about wedge brakes.
My dump looks like this, runs and drove good, however the coolant filter housing? Or something like that cracked and is so rusted on i am having a hard time getting it off, and then finding replacement is not gonna be easy. The truck has a lot of blow by, major smoke on cold mornings starting. It's getting to the point of very unreliable. I did put new tires and radiator in it, which I could swap tires and at least have four new ones on a newer truck. I might list on cl for four grand and see if I get any takers Starting to get pretty rusty around the cab, as well.
I bet no one here was expecting to see that when you've been talking about your Mack! That's a rebadged Renault.
How times have changed! In the late 70's, the first tandem dump I drove was a Ford L-800. It had a 477 gas engine and a 5x4 tranny. What a dog. It couldn't work a hard 8 hours with the fuel it had on board (but it sounded cool). I think it got gallons to the mile. The company had a couple GMCs with 427 gassers and 13 speeds. Those things would run compared to the Fords. Then they graduated to a bunch of Ford L-8000s with 3208 Cats and 13 speeds. We thought we were something. Of course it didn't take long to figure out the Cats were throw-aways. It didn't seem to be a problem them as they had at least 40 of those in the fleet and there were always engines around. With the 13 speeds there was always enough power to get started and get around the site, but they had a hard time keeping 55 mph on the freeway. They would routinely load them with 40k of asphalt. That's probably about 14k more than they were designed for. Nobody was surprised when they started breaking rear axle housings. The truck you are looking at has more horsepower than some of our heavy haulers had in those days.
Yup! Not a true Mack at all. Which is why it's not worth much of anything!! Lol and impossible to find parts for.
Beat me too it. Yeah parts are hard to find for that model.
I would try to make it a little longer with it if I didn't get this coolant leak, but everything is so old under there I can't get it apart to even see how bad the crack is. So she is done, makes sense it did sit for 15 years not being used or started or anything until last spring, did good for last season, won't make it another
Your first thought might be the best direction to go . That 13 foot bed looked pretty good in the picture . Dealer takes the Mack off your hands in the trade . Set up the L9000 Ford with the bed and keep pulling the tag trailer . Or ...... Look around for older Mack dump trucks that you can still get parts for & service . http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6415927 The possibilities are endless . Main thing is be able to do most of the work on the truck yourself whatever you decide .
I think for now and cash flow and just starting, the l9000 is gonna be my best bet. Wanna see if I can keep the brand new tires I just put on the old make before the trade in. I'll keep everyone updated on what I do.
Picked up the box today, truck will be meeting and swapping later this week. Question. Is the the right PTO And pump I need? It's what was given to me for the truck Looks to have 3 ports. marked "in" "out" and then there is a 3rd which has a check Valve.
That's the return line so the pump wont overheat while the pto. is in gear but you aren't moveing any oil. You only realy need that if you plan to power anything other than the dump like a spreader it is a good line to hook up a filter to since you already have the port.
Looks like you should end up with a nice truck. The fords were a good truck, just stay on top of the rust, thats what killed the ones we had. The other drawback as mentioned is parts are tough to get and expensive I remember the air tanks that go under the cab were hard to find and very expensive 10 years ago. With that 3406 you wont neet to split any gears (other than the last one) unless you are severly overloaded and going up a steep hill. The only bad part is if you are going over soft ground, even with the wider tires it will submarine where a 3306 or L10/M11 will go without a problem.
Finally got the truck and box to my house, first light coat of paint on the box. Question is, How far from the back of the cab to the front of the box? I was thinking 5", higher on the box has supports for the dirt guard come out 3.5" so that still leaves a gap there. This puts the rear hinge just at about the back of the rear tire, maybe even a little towards the axle center line of the rear axle. Which looks to be just about right to me.
I like my boxes as far back as possible. I don't like dumping near the rear tires or on to the trailer hitch, air hook ups or electical connectors. I see a lot of them that are set up to dump near the rear tires. I guess whatever works for you. FWD
Thanks, I can put wherever just brings its further back from the cab. Where I have things mocked up now, center of dump hinge is 19" behind centerline of the rear axle. End of dump is 10" behind that, and I am thinking of putting an 8" shoot off the back of the box for dumping as well. I'll work on getting some photos of location to see how it should work
Hinge would be in this general area on the back of the frame. Pintle plate right behind it. Back of the box is 10" behind the front line for the hinge
Both of my trucks, both Fords with set forward axles, are hinged a little farther back. The one I like the best is an LT9000. The center of the hinge pin is 23" behind the center of the rear axle and the end of box is about 16" from the center of the hing pin. I need to load more in the front of the box for proper weight distribution. I like the long over hang especially when I am installing culverts, it dumps on top or over the culvert. You have a set back front axle so you will have no problem getting enough weight on the front axle. You could go back a little farther if you can get the hinge welded in okay. I'm sure it will work the way you have it figured. DWF
Slowly coming along, truck is striped and ready for paint, painting the box currently. Just working on running air and trailer lighting to the back of the truck as well. Have to install the pto and control box in the cab still c
It looks like you are doing a good job on your project. I can't do anything like that as we have a lot of snow on the ground. I am doing some things in the garage on warmer days. I put enough heat on to keep the chill off. FWD
Outside photo was a thaw. That was Tuesday. Wednesday we have 13" on the ground again of new snow.
The 3406 cat makes the truck more valuable than a 3306 or an m11, The Louisville fords had a comfortable cab and tons of them where produced with various engines, I know for a fact to triple check radiator measurements when ordering a new one as the various engines and uses such snow plow hoods and front pto made a difference in height and size. If the body is to far beyond hinge it can lower slowly, or a stuck stump could prevent body from coming down at all, however to short behind hinge and you can't dump into a paver. To clear up someone's earlier post about the tractor protection valve. As a tractor running down the road bobtail applies its brakes it has no weight over the rear tires and the drive axle tires would lockup, so to prevent this when the trailer is disconnected from the truck part of the tractor protection valves job is to limit braking on the drive tires, when trailer is attached again full braking power to the drive axle. Now you put a dump box on that truck and fill it up with wet gravel and your tractor protection valve thinks it is bobtail and limits braking to drive axle service valve even though you are loaded and need full braking.
Your names are mixed up. You are describing the bobtail valve. That is indeed how it works. The tractor protection valve is the red knob on the tractor. Its purpose is to cut off the air to the trailer if the trailer air pressure gets too low and keeps some air for the tractor.
Yes, the bobtail valve is on top of the service brake relay valve, and a second can be in place for the front brakes. The bobtail valve gets its signal from the trailer supply line after the dash valve and before the tractor protection valve. But the red knob on the dash is not the tractor protection valve, the tractor protection valve is usually at the back of the cab and prevents major loss of tractor air if the trailer lines broke. So if your service brake relay valve is equipped with a bobtail valve you will need to swap it for one without. And if your front has one you need to swap that too. It is probably matter of opinion to move the tractor protection valve closer to the back of the truck to be closer to the tag trailer lines if a line goes.
Little update. Truck is painted, box is on, hydraulics all hooked up today and the box goes up and down! Local steel place is being a royal pain on trying to get some 3/4 plate for the pintle hitch. Been waiting 1.5 months and they still don't have it cut yet.
Hit the wheels and you instantly made it worth 5k more
Yup, wheels are getting painted same color as the box. Just waiting till all things are done on the box to touch it up, and I'll paint wheels at the same time.
Well here is the finished product. All went well. Only major issues. Turbo died on my first test drive :-/ $1200 dollar expense wasn't planning on. Dump cylinder seals are dripping. Which makes sense. Gonna have to address that at some point. Might need an injector, chugs a little at cold start. Runs great warm. So hopefully off to work! Will post some more when I can
Out for a test job! All good
Turned out nice! I'd be proud to own time!