I've been struggling for two months with my DEF system, and now the DFP is not regenning but needs to. This is a 2016 Cat 299D2 XHP (DX200946) which I've just rebuilt from total burnout. Everything works except for this and I've done all calibrations. The symptom starts on engine start with this: ... and ~45 minutes later comes up with this: So I thought it's a DEF circulation problem. I flushed the injector ($1,200) through the nipples overnight, and then I attached the garden hose to the injector port (90psi), applied 12v and white stuff vomited out the nipples. I can hear the solenoid clicking as I apply and remove 12v. So I let that flush overnight. Didn't help. I suspected the DEF pump ($2,400) and took that apart examining the ports, gears, filter chamber, but no blockage. I reinstalled the pump and ran a clear tube from the DEF tank to the pump. It did suck for 1.5 minutes, but then reversed as if clearing. I put pins in one of the pump's 3 phase wires and to the ground. 2.8 vAC as expected, which went away after 1.5 minutes then came back, presumably in reverse. I feel sure that fluid is getting circulated, although it doesn't look like very much volume or pressure, basically a trickle, although the injector port is quite small. I put the plastic tube on the pump output and it trickles just enough to not break into drops. I've removed the DEF filter and no change. I've replaced the filter and space-taker-upper plug with new. I took the injector off the manifold and wrapped it in a baggie, started the engine, and nothing came out. Here's what ET says: Huh? DEF Pressure negative? (Although Max 21.7) Must be in the clear cycle, right? DEF Pressure now is 1.7psi? So that's a problem. Now I've run the engine so long struggling with this, that DPF needs to regen. ... but it's inhibited. Inhibited by what? Nothing? Could it know that it's not getting DEF? Why should oxides of nitrogen have anything to do with carbon build-up? Park it in safe location and then what? Wave my hands in the air like I just don't care? It already is parked in a safe location. I try to do a manual regen and it claims success in starting, but it never actually starts. I've tried with throttle at zero, and at max, waiting 15 minutes for each but status is always not in regen cycle, and Inhibited. The only other abnormality in the whole system is the fuel pump is showing to be recalibrating. I'd initiated this two weeks ago and interrupted it because of the DPF, but it's still showing active. I tried to calibrate it again but nothing seems to be happening.
The engine temperature needs to be high to start a regen. Like set it at full throttle and walk away so it gets up to temperature, but if you can't operate the machine I'm not sure you'll actually get it hot enough
The system needs to see approx 50psi DEF. Have you checked the screen on the pickup tube in the tank?
With SCR pulling you into derate, doesn't look like you'll ever get into regen. Solve SCR first. By your descriptions, it looks like either you have crystalization in the line leading up to the injector or your pump is failed. I yield to CMark, he beat me to the post.
Gee, 50psi sounds alot more plausible for this. I've replaced the screen on the pickup tube. And there was dirt in the tank so I rinsed and vacuumed it clean inside in an attempt to fix this. At the same time I disconnected the lines from tank to pump and pump to injector, and blew them both out with the garden hose. I saw the tank-to-pump line blow clear but I'm not entirely convinced the pump-to-injector line blew clear as there wasn't much water in the engine bay. And I blew out the intake and return stainless tank lines. Two of the three ($240ea) DEF lines are new. Then when I reassembled I left the pump outlet disconnected and it only came out a trickle. I thought maybe it needs a prime so I reversed my shop-vac and blew into the DEF fill port to pressurize the system, but no improvement after a good bit. So I opened up the pump and exposed the gears and ran it, and they are spinning like sixty. And when I turn off the key I hear what sounds like the pump still running and it seems fine. Then I bypassed the tank-to-pump line with 1/2" clear tubing so I could see what's going on. It draws slowly as a trickle for about 1.5 minutes, then reverses. I wanted to put my own voltage directly on the pump to test it with water but I found that it's a 3-phase DC pump so I can't possibly simulate that (sawtooth?) signal. But when I take out the DEF injector and run it into a baggie, and there's no liquid, that is bad. And the pump output is inexplicably bad. I don't understand how the pump can not be moving liquid, yet be spinning like it does. Maybe I should disconnect the lines directly on the pump housing and put my own plastic tubes on it to eliminate everything but the pump itself?
Your DEF pump should provide adequate pressure and flow during operation, once shut down it should go into purge or backflow depending on how CAT configured the system. You should hear a click followed by continued pump operation. The click was the divert or backflow valve opening. The pump running is now drawing the DEF from the nozzle and lines back into the storage tank. You may hear the injector nozzle click open to prevent vacuum or voids. All DEF lines are electrically heated. Key on , they should warm up to "thaw" any remnants in the lines. The tank will be heated either with warm engine coolant through a thermostatic valve or electric heating strips in the tank. When the pump and engine are running, all the lines should be warm. If you place the injector in a bucket, you should see fine mist . Dribbling indicates obstructions, clogged filter or weak pump. There should be a serviceable filter in the pump assembly. Some important things to consider when messing with DEF and SCR. Nothing but vinyl and stainless steel for tools. All water should be de ionized purified drinking water. No tap water. No iron, chrome or steel tools. Here's the rub... the inside of the catalyst or decomposition chamber is coated with a relatively fragile material, its stable in exhaust flow and urea injection, it will not survive iron contamination. Any particulate iron gets trapped and begins to slowly chip away at your coating. Your catalyst efficiency drops , more and more til it can't does enough to convert. I hope this helps a little in trying to get this solved. That said stage 3 derate which I believe is what your second image showed, will require a recommission by cat to continue. Federal anti tampering laws, aren't they nice.
There's no reversal valve, only the direct connections. It appears that reversal is done by reversing the pump electronically. No way to hear any clicks while the engine is running; I do hear what seems to be the DEF pump when I only turn the key on and don't start. Hadn't thought to check for warmth, although I did ensure that the fluid in the tank was not frozen. Indeed there are heating strips in the pump, and the tank is warmed by coolant. No way to put the injector in a bucket as it's way up in the corner of the engine bay, but tying a baggie over it I find no output as noted above. There is a filter in the pump and it's new. Oh well, too late for that, I've used hose water to purge everything. But the exposure shouldn't have been long enough to do damage. Ah, they're not serious. When the DPF gets clogged I'll decompose the whole top of the engine bay to remove, and wire-brush and blow out the DPF myself. Notice that it does say it has 100% soot load, but that backpressure is zero. I'm trying to run it as little as possible to try and solve this DEF problem, even as I see no relation to the DPF problem.
The "engine de-rate - protect mode against cold temperature" is a feature that is built in to protect the turbo. All it does is limit the engine speed until the engine has warmed up a little bit. It has nothing to do with the DPF or SCR system.
A piece of cardboard placed between the grill and the cooling pack will block air flow through the cooler and can help to get the temperature up high enough to perform a regen.
Not to beat a dead horse, if you are in level 3 SCR fault, it will probably not allow you to enter regeneration.
The reason you see the SCR fault after about 45 minutes is that the system is allowed to run that long without injecting DEF into the SCR catalyst to ensure the DEF has sufficiently thawed in cold weather. Are you able to view DEF tank temperatures?
Near the beginning of this thread I said that the system needs to see a DEF pressure of approx 50psi, and that is the key. If, for whatever reason it doesn't see that pressure within about 90 seconds of running then it interprets it as a frozen DEF event and goes into the thaw cycle. If it still can't see the required pressure after 45min of running the thaw cycle then it sets the event code.
Ok, it's good to know that the initial de-rate message is normal. I don't understand why SCR is linked to DPF regen, as one is oxides of nitrogen and the other is carbon in the filter, but maybe it's just the way they've done the firmware. After the engine has run a while the DEF temp is usually 50F. One cold day (20's) I checked and the DEF was not frozen, which I was surprised at, but it still would not pump adequately. And Cmark your remarks are why I'm moving on to my next tests. We've had 6" of snow here (record-breaker) so I've been paralyzed, but it's melting now. I know that there's free flow from the tank to the pump, but apparently not out of the pump since it's only been a trickle. So I'm going to open up the DEF box, lift up the pump, remove its connections, and test it with plastic tubing in and out. It had better give full flow then. If so, I'll work my way out from there. If not I have to try and find a used pump somewhere. All I've found so far is melted ones from when ppl set their machines on fire for insurance. HeavyEquipmentForums
I opened up the DEF pump box and extracted the pump itself. I connected clear plastic lines to in and out and ran it with water. The water moves and flows about like I'd expect it for gears of this size and speed. I partially plug the output and it develops pretty decent pressure to make a fine spray. Looks to me like it's Ok. What's more is it did not time out after 1.5 minutes as it had before! Why? It has going to it four wires, being the three phases and ground. So there's no speed or pressure sensor built into it, unless current is measured to determine load. Next I'll reinstall the pump into the box and connect only the stock inlet to it. This will test everything from the pump to the tank.
Putting the DEF pump box completely back together and testing its output, it seems fine for both volume and (restrained) pressure. It is good considering the small diameter of the injector input. BUT it cuts off after 1.5 minutes, even as I restrain output (increasing back-pressure), and then reverses flow. The only thing that seems like pressure measurement is inside the pump box right before the outlet. I'm assuming that the reason it can normally build up pressure in the line is there must be a restricter at the injector's outlet tube. So pressure builds up for the injector, without being sent straight back into the tank. Well, I guess my next test is to put a baggie around the injector to see if anything comes out. I doubt there will, and so I'll be quite confused. I've manually actuated it and flushed it overnight successfully.
So are you now seeing 50psi in ET?
I don't know, but it's difficult, almost impossible, for me to stop it up completely. If I have nothing coming out of the injector, I don't know what else to do but take the machine to the stealership.
It shouldn't inject all the time. At start up it just circulates DEF through the injector and back to tank. The internal resistance to flow in the injector should give the appx. 50psi. I thought you had ET?
Once again you are likely locked out unless you have factory passwords. When the service truck shows up , tech will have to email for the passwords , he will not have them in his et. What SCR has to do with DPF, is they are both components of the exhaust treatment system .
The DEF system at startup pumps the fluid out and does a pressure check on the system. If it detects a leak (low pressure) it will pump it back to the tank. At the moment I can't remember where pressure is read. I want to say in the pump but not for certain. You will need to look in SIS to find out for sure. If you can, put the DEF system back together and pull vacuum on it. If you get a vacuum then you have a pressure sensor problem. If there are faults with the DEF or the SCR it will not allow you to regen manually or otherwise. I hope this will get you pointed in the right direction.
It's a whole big operation for me to run ET as I have to replace the disk in my laptop since I normally run Linux. After this latest test it looks like I'm punked, skunked, and defunct. No clear answer. Have the whole system back together, removed the injector and put it in a baggie, and started the engine 3 times, each run being about 2 minutes. All that was in the baggie is the first picture. That doesn't look like I think it should be after 3 starts, although it does smell like DEF. Second picture is ET SCR 1. Terrible pressure. Its behavior is clear: the pump runs forward for 1.5 minutes, then stops and reverses. There seems to be enough volume and pressure when forward. So if the pressure reader is wrong, there is not enough fluid in the baggie because it's just circulated at first? It would make sense for them to do that. It doesn't seem possible to order just the pressure transducer as I believe it's in the pump assy at the outlet, which is $2,500. Can I hotwire the transducer if it's bad? If it's just a switch, surely so. Pulling a vacuum. I have a shop-vac. I've run over the DEF cap (left it on the track) and that's $75, so I have only a baggie stuffed in there for now. I do have an HVAC vacuum pump, so maybe I could rig up a cover with schrader fitting and put my pump/gauges on it. I'm 90% sure my system is closed, but it may be worth testing. This is the sum of what I know after carefully going through every stage of the system in detail. It's good to have confirmed that DFP regen is inhibited because of this, although now I'm at Stage 2 of a plugged-up DPF. Not long before Stage 3 and I have to disassemble the whole top of the machine to remove and try to clean the DPF. (although back-pressure is zero)
Bypassing the pressure transducers will not get you anywhere. The ecm needs to see the pressure it wants or it will trip a code. Another thing is if you don't have dealership level ET you will not be able to reset the ash and soot levels after doing a forced regen. There should be a test in et that will allow you test fire the doser what you call the injector. Cat didn't design the system and I am certain that it is a licensed Version of what Cummins designed. You may want to try Cummins for a new def pump.
Well that's not good news. But I'm going to test the transducer to see if it's just a switch and probably bypass it anyway. I do have ET 2017 Factory, but I don't find where to reset ash and soot levels, although I am an amateur. I've gone through the schematics (attached) and all they give is a square block for the DEF pump box. But there are wires for the pressure sensor coming out of it so I'm confident that the device on the output line is a pressure transducer. Nothing else could be it, just heater and pump wiring. The 3.8 liter engine is Kubota, and I've searched extensively for an in-line DEF pressure sensor with no luck. Maybe when I open up the DEF pump there will be a manufacturer somewhere. I have tried Kubota for an injector after I found the part number on it, and Kubota charges more than Cat! ($1,200)
So the pressure transducer is absolutely inside the DEF pump box, and it is a transducer not a switch because {der} it reports the DEF pressure. It is the device on the output line, and I've broken it down to the part shown. I put a probe into the port to test if it's a switch, and may have damaged the delicate aluminum membrane. I didn't think to look for plugging of its ingress port, as I'm so panicked about this, which may well could have been the problem. (before I probably broke the sensor) It has 3 wires, which may mean it's a potentiometer. It has cast into the plastic the brand Epcos (which is a TDK company), and laser-engraved are the (faint) numbers: BL10 11 4026786 BS8621M3200B021 Epcos does in fact make pressure transducers, although G**gle is baffled by either number. I can't find any Epcos pressure transducer or sender in this formfactor.
I have had numerous cases of small electronic parts like this that are only reasonably available through Cat or similar. Even though the manufacturer may sell other products from their line to the general public.
Sure, but unfortunately Cat's SIS only lists the whole DEF pump box as a FRU. There is no part# for any parts internal to the box. I'm supposed to buy the whole box for $2,500. I am not supposed to be doing any of this and it is 'certainly none of my business'. And it's matched to a Kubota engine so if anyone would have it they would, although they are pathologically unable to find anything unless I already have the part#. Plus this is pollution-control and a very special device constructed for a particular function and certified as a unit. If there were any chance of finding who actually makes it maybe, maybe I could buy from them but chances are slim for all of this, I think. Having gone over Epcos' whole product line of pressure sensors, this one looks like it has the characteristics needed: Date: 2009 Pressures: 100 - 6000 mBar Connections: 3, potentiometer Only thing is I don't see how the formfactor could fit in the case I have, and I don't want to tear it open to see the die. I've put in an inquiry to Epcos, although I'm sure I'll never hear back on something like this. Edit: whoah whoah whoah... Looking at the datasheet under Ordering Codes, my second number sure looks like an Epcos part#, if we pretend the 'S' is a '5'. B58621M3200B021 I've gotta say it is my part#. Searching on it I get a couple Asian hits, but maybe I can order free samples of it from Epcos now that I have the part#.
I hope all goes well with you. If that doesn't work then take the aftertreatmeant s.n.# and go to Cummins quick serve website and look it up. I am pretty sure that Cummins has designed the system.
Paul where would the aftertreatmeant s.n.# be? There don't seem to be any markings on the DEF pump box.
It will be on the SCR.
Whelp... there is just no other way to say it, and there is no other reasonable conclusion that can be reached: YOU GUYS ROCK!!! I fixed it last night. I didn't get any response to my sample request from the sensor company, so I just presumed that I had -not- damaged the sensor, and reinstalled it in the DEF pump box after carefully cleaning out the DEF crystals WHICH WERE THERE. I started the engine and DEF pressure was around zero then bumped to .4psi. It bumbled around there for a bit, then came up to 14psi. It went like this for a bit and I says to meself 'this is all I'm going to get'. Then it went to 20, then 24. And then 50.4! My god, I've never seen this. Then 80! I could not believe my lying eyes. I thought well my gosh, the Inhibit on DPF regen must be gone now, so Service|ManualRegen and it claimed it'd started, but then it's always done that.... but oh, engine speed just ramped up! So I went to Info|Status, and By The Mighty Hammer of Thor , it was in regen! A thousand degrees! Wow. I don't understand how it could get this hot, even if it bypasses the turbo. It must be using some other method. It was very low on fuel but I let it complete the regen cycle and idle back down (~45 minutes), and now DPF load is 32%, which I believe is normal. I looked at the two reset DPF settings, but they seem to be only for when the DPF is physically cleaned so I didn't touch them. Hopefully all is good now, and there are no errors. (Hate that infernal beeper now, I guess like I'm supposed to) I took it out for a spin on neighborhood streets, and no derate for the first time! What a relief. Neighbors seem to enjoy seeing me driving it, and I have its name in big letters on the arms: 'BLUTO'. So there you have it. It is possible to clear a plugged DEF system with the methods I've described. But I would have lost my sh*t and defaulted to buying scary-expensive parts if it weren't for you guys. Thank you. I have one calibration left to do, hydrostatic (traction) valves. I tried doing this without reading the directions and the machine shot forward 30' before I stopped it! Seems you're supposed to block it off the ground for this cal, lol. Then I'll temporarily install a substitute high-rez backup camera from eBay to see if it works, since the Cat camera went blind, and if so put that in permanently. And I'll install a 2300w inverter in the back door for a chainsaw, and I'm ready to go to work.
These aftertreatment systems use a catalyst upstream of the DPF. Anyone in the know feel free to correct me but my understanding is that there is a fuel post-injection during regen and the extra little bit of fuel reacts with the DOC catalyst to make those high temperatures.
That is great news. You have shown determination that I have never seen before. You deserve half as much of the gratification if not more. Enjoy your skidsteer.
Did you have to replace the pump or are you still running the same one