Looking over some new tri-axles at our local KW dealer where several of the trucks have Endurant auto/automated transmissions. Did a little research and it's apparently made by Eaton Cummins. Anyone have any experience with these transmissions in a tri-axle application 85K gross weight? Just curious. One nice looking truck - https://truckworx.com/inventory/2025-kenworth-t880-dump-15/
Not the same but I have an automated 12 speed in my Volvo grapple truck. It’s been fine. 2 speed reverse tops out at 7mph, I wish that was higher. Gross weight is at least comparabe. If I bought a new truck, it’ll be an Allison. I have one in my Freightliner and it doesn’t have any drawbacks I’ve found.
Hopefully @Truck Shop will drop by to give you guys an explanation on the difference of these. If he doesn't, I know that there is considerable difference between a AMT (automated manual transmission) and a Volvo/Mack automated 12 speed. I think the Freightliners are more similar to the Volvo/Mack, but he will know more.
The Eaton Endurant is a far cry from the Eaton Auto Shift of earlier years. A total different animal, complete new design. There's not allot out there at this time but from the ones we have in the 2022 T990's it's about the only thing that hasn't had a issue. The Endurant comes in several varieties mainly 12 & 18 speed with a Torque rating to 2050, it's more compact design. It is a smooth operator unlike previous Eaton AMT's. Endurant below. * The Detroit DT12 is really a great AMT gearbox, it is not near as compact and only uses a single counter shaft. Both Endurant and the DT12 have aluminum cases. The DT12 is a long life unit -lots of them out there with a million miles plus and only gear oil changes. IIRC the Endurant uses 75x90 same as DT12. The DT12 IMO is a slightly smoother operator because it was design matched to the DD13,15 & 16 engines. Out of the number we've had some 90 of them only one had a internal failure that was covered. I know that Freightliner is about 90% plus on amount coming down the assembly line with a DT12. Hardly anybody buys manuals, vocational is just about as high. Both gear boxes programed with cruise control will keep truck at a steady speed with using jakes. Which between the Cummins X15 or the DD15 have really strong jakes. Our Cascadia's with a GVW of 98,000 descending Cabbage on I-84 can manually down shifted or braked down to desired speed of roughly 40 to 45 mph. And cruise to the bottom using cruise or set to manual which is 7th/8th gear and never touch a brake for the 6 mile 6% decent all controlled on a stalk on right side of column. The biggest savings is fuel burned because either gear box on throttle does not hesitate a shift removing poor driving habits. DT12 to right.
Real automatics are pretty sweet off road, can keep you from getting stuck, and can get you out when a manual won't.
These will do the same thing, way more DT12's installed in Freightliners than Allison's these days. The state went all Freightliner with DT12's. Until a person drives a late model AMT---it's hard to make a comparison.
My uncle has decided to park his truck after 38 years and 5 million miles. He is driving for the local coop hauling fuel. They are considering buying a new Freightliner day cab with factory pusher. DD13 and DT12, 3.25 gears. It will be hitched to a 9500 gallon tanker. He's worried that the 3.25 gears are way too tall. They are also getting disc brakes, but that is a whole nother conversation....
10 speed Autoshift is total crap!!! But I know one 18 speed that Carlisle ( Ice Road Truckers ) had on the heavy haul Kenworth - that thing did dang good, pulling close to 200 000# rig.
Uh--the Eaton Autoshift is 27 year old technology, a case of trying to outfit a 60 year old transmission design with a computer. * Ice Road truckers, Highway through hell and the rest are very poor examples, nothing more than drama---packed full of reality tv errors---along the lines of Big Time Wrestling.
Do you know how my Volvo 12 speed compares to the function of the new Endurant? I was wary of it when I first found the truck, but did some reading and it seemed like it’s a decent transmission without common serious issues. I’ve had it for 3 years, not many miles, but no issues.
Hey truck shop, in the brochure they rate the non-HD dt12 at 80,000lbs max vehicle weight. Is there a reason why or are they just underrating it? Just curious as I’m not looking for a truck for a good while hopefully, but keeping one eye open on the used market, there’s trucks with dt12’s that are a attractive price but with the non-HD transmission, and I gross between 90-105,000lbs.
The 80,000 lb version is what's spec'd for standard GVW of 80K, If trucks are spec'd for heavy haul usage then those normally come from factory with the higher rated version. Most vocational come spec'd with the HD. But average joe OTR is more than likely a 80K box. The DT12 HE is rated for 2,250 torque, 160,000 GVW, 12 forward 4 reverse. Plus The DT series comes with a coasting mode to save fuel.
Low is 14.80, the DT12 has plenty of low gear, some of ours are 3.08 rear ratio IIRC. None have had a issue starting out. The HE version is 18.80 IIRC, don't quote me on that though.
X2
No they will not do the same thing, unless they have a torque converter show me power braking to 20 psi then letting off the brake Also when you pull into a soft field at light throttle an automatic will stop, will those auto shifts stop automatically as well or will then keep the tires a going till the motor dies or the clutch is pushed in.
Thanks for the in the field info, very informative. All I've heard of the older Eaton automated trans were nightmares. As far as a dump truck goes I'm not interested in a manual. What is desirable about these automated's is the range of gear selection over a 6 speed Allison, just never driven one. All my experience has been with Allison auto's. 3 - 4500 series in Mack Granites and the older one in our current L9000. I really enjoyed driving the Allison's in what we do - loaded dump truck in stop and go traffic. They also work well off road which is what we use the L9000 mostly for. I need to drive one of the Endurant's and DT12's to compare.
For spreading gravel-either would work well in manual mode. The trouble with the old autoshifts---it was a manual converted--it was never meant to be automated, it was designed with slow shifting in mind when first built.
You don't know what your talking about, your calling it a auto shift, there is a big difference between any early and late designs. If you haven't driven one you have nothing to compare. It's good you like slush boxes----stick with them.
Your right I don't know, two questions Do they have a torque converter Can you you power brake them to 20+psi of boost
Only transmissions that have a torque converter are Allisons. Can you power brake them? I'm assuming you mean "stall" them? Not if you want them to live. I have no idea on the DT12, but the Mack/Volvo have a setting that provides for a "softer" engagement for slippery conditions.
Allisons can stall indefinitely as long as your trans cooler is big enough. And yes I power brake them to build boost when stuck in the mud to get out while a manual you will either literally break them from drive line shock or by the time you get to the front of the hole you start to build boost and do nothing. You cannot be as capable off road as a Allison without a torque converter
No torque converter, no planetary gears, it's not a automatic
The endurants have been pretty good. I find they shift better then the ultrashift eatons. Early models have bearing/case issues but those seem to be resolved now. The 12speeds have no cooler on them which is why the weight rating is only 110,000lbs. The 18speed endurants are fairly new still and come with coolers for higher weight ratings. Air dryer maintenance is a critical and they have to use the expensive bendix cartridges
The allison is a hydraulicly operated transmission therefore it is a automatic, automatic, automatic. The AMT is a--and careful now----Automated, automated, automated {combined with} the word manual, manual, manual transmission. It operates by computer control to manual shift bar. It shifts rapidly with no manual operation by it's human operator unless it is in manual mode. It was not designed or to emulate a allison in a buried up to your ass issue. cfherrman--nowhere did I say it was a automatic. I said it {will do the same thing} and that meant operated under normal off road conditions. What you {are} using it for is just more than likely, not many on here do. Automatic and Automated are two words that are similar but have two different descriptions. What you are trying to accomplish is inserting/pinpointing a very certain area. You are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill about getting stuck. The {OP} already has a {Truck/Trucks} with allisons, he didn't ask about allisons, he asked about AMT's. * I somehow doubt {very much} he is torturing his equipment in the same environment as you.
The dryer cartridge issue--the expensive bendix dryer cartridge also has something to do with synthetic engine oils, I don't remember the reason, but will ask this morning.
You said these new auto shifts can do the same thing as an automatic, but they can't. They cannot prevent you from getting stuck off road, and they cannot help you to get out of road as well. I do not torture my equipment, I keepy stuff up better than most people and guys slamming into drive lines by dumping the clutch is way harder than power braking to 20 psi. I have never broken anything with an automatic.
This transmission or that transmission is not going to "prevent you from getting stuck" Driving skill is what keeps a truck from getting stuck, and that includes know when to stop. It also takes driving skill to avoid rolling trucks over . . .
Thanks for the info. I'd like to know more about the maintenance side and if it's more, less or the same as a similar Allison.
I will give CF just a bit of leeway here, but, by and large, if you can get out with an automatic, there are guys who would be able to get out with anything else as well. I have never grenaded a clutch, shattered a u-joint, twisted a driveshaft, or lost a differential crawling out of a hole. Would I want to do that sort of thing everyday? Hell no, that's why they make an automatic. But to say you absolutely have to have an automatic is inaccurate.
No you don't but I absolutely want one.
As Acoals has said and I pinpointed getting stuck is a driver issue. Weren't you the one with the tire thread surface/patch area too * And one more point the DT12 works really well because the DD series engines develop 1500 lbs torque very early below 1000 rpm which makes them great for off road.
Two reasons---The Bendix Hi Flow air dryers with the cartridge # 5009041PG are a metric thread and also have a built separator to stop the lighter weight oils 10X30 from contaminating the desiccant water separator section of cartridge. It is not advised to alter system by using a early style dryer. Cost of spin-on cartridge is around $145.00.
I want an Allison with 12 gears
May as well wish for 22!
6 speed and a 4 speed aux. and you can have a couple extra.
Nope---not many know how to drive those so Allison needs to get off their ass and build a 22. Which leads to the question--just how many on here can drive a twin gear box? Only a hand full I'm guessing.
how about an 8spd.roadranger with a 4 spd aux behind it with a 549 gasser in front
As intriguing as that could be, I don't think you could shift the auxiliary unless you could lock up the torque converter and hold the gear. Maybe the hold button does that on the newer ones?
Maintenance Id say is less then an allison. Linehaul oil change is 750,000miles. Less for vocational. Initial cost is less. Rebuilding one/ buying a replacement is less then an allison. Big issue in the medium duty petes with allisons (dump trucks and grain trucks) is the engine fan running constant to try to get rid of all the heat the allison makes. No issues like that with an autoshift. Warranty is better too as you don't get kicked between a Peterbilt shop and an Allison shop, with each saying its the others issue. All eaton problems get warrantied at the truck OEM shop.
They are rather easy to shift, just like a regular 5x4 shifting without the clutch There's tons of military trucks with an auto and an aux, my uncle drove one for years
Thanks for the info, very informative. Had a 2003 International 7400 with a C13 Cat and Allison transmission. Unfortunately I know all about the dealer saying it's the engine, the engine saying it's the transmission and around and around we go. Extremely frustrating when you have a truck you can't use and a payment that comes like clockwork. How much cheaper are they compared to an Allison? I haven't really priced heavy trucks in several years. We don't put a ton of mile on a dump truck so maintenance with either transmission would be on a calendar instead of mileage like we do for our small engines and 84" compactor.
DT12 is every 250,000 miles. Eaton ball park $14,000 new DT12 $18,000 . * What is the reason for the Modern CDL? * DT12 Vocational | Detroit The Detroit® DT12® Vocational Series transmissions brings performance and durability to every job. www.demanddetroit.com
I just talked with the Mack salesman a few weeks ago, he said the Mack M drive or whatever its called (AMT) is the cheapest. An 8LL would be a "couple thousand more" and an Allison was about 10 or 12k higher. That is pretty anecdotal, I wasn't actually pricing, he was just ballparking. Overall he said a Wisconsin quad would be 245K and up.
I will reload this here--because certain people need to read it. From top to bottom. Yes the DT12 WILL PERFORM WHAT IS CALLED A POWER LAUNCH AT 1,200 RPM. plus is has a mode for spreading blacktop, imagine that. * DT12 Vocational | Detroit The Detroit® DT12® Vocational Series transmissions brings performance and durability to every job. www.demanddetroit.com
I liked the Macks I've owned, they were trouble free but they were also new at the time. That's a considerable cost difference between an M drive and Allison. Is that $245K before FET? New tri-axles are running $270K +/- OTD with FET.
I don't know about FET, the salesman was much more serious about me buying a brand new dump than I was. You know how those guys are always "reaching out". I was just being curious while he was on the phone.
Power launch at 0 boost, way better than a manual though, will keep you from breaking things
Please don't take this the wrong way, but how much real world experience do you have driving manual transmissions in your world? By that, if you've spent 20 years in Allisons with a smattering of manuals, I feel you're being a bit assumptive on the real capabilities of a manual. Now, if you were running manuals for 10 years, and now have run Allisons for 10 or more years and have this opinion, that's a totally different story.
All this talk about "boosted launches" and other such related off road abuse, is just that; abuse. It's brutal on a truck. CF might "have never broken anything on an auto", but I have, and I have seen plenty of carnage on automatic trucks. I got my start at 18 driving mixers. Back at that time everybody wasn't using pumps, and the concrete masons thought that a 6x6 mixer was roughly equivalent to a dozer with a barrel on it. At 18, it wasn't my truck and I was generally happy to oblige. A dump truck shouldn't generally be doing all sorts of off roading and mud bogging, and the new AMT's, if they are what TS says, should probably do just fine in that application. The auto dumps I have seen around here don't really impress me off road. Without low range they wind up really being a slug off road, always having to boost way up with everything slipping and getting hot in the trans. The typical driver solution is to make a run at everything. The lack of low range really translates into a lack of control. For a mixer though, I wouldn't have anything but an auto. All you do with a mixer is creep back and forth, inches at a time. The AMT might work, but I can't imagine it working well. A torque converter does have its place. I would like a crack at driving a dump with one of those Detroit AMT's though . . .
The few Allison dumps I've owned and the current old L9000 with 4sp auto have been great off road dump trucks hence the reason I want another one. Even our 30 year old L9000 has great low gearing and is great for on-site hauling with no overheating. We have two 18 year old kids that we can put in the L9000 and let them ease across the jobsite all day hauling dirt. The truck is so low geared and underpowered coupled with heavy running gear it's almost bullet proof if you keep the cowboy'ing at bay. Actually hauled 10 loads out last week - I took a few rounds on site yesterday. To be honest I really like the old girl. Wonder how a Detroit and one of those Detroit automated trans would do under the hood...
I have always liked the visibility out of the old ford cabs. Small pillar and great big aquarium windshield. Good old painted steel doors hold up well in the muck and mud compared with the plastic newer ones, I actually prefer that over our nicer carpeted trucks. Its just easier to knock the mud off the steel doors. Its the worst in the quarry after a rain. Get that slurry ground into the carpet and you've got a mess. I doubt anything will hold up as well in your use. I see yours even has a jake, that's rare to have in a l10 with allison.
The major point missed in all of this which I tried to point out earlier. The DD15 coupled with a DT12 VT transmission is a power/torque to gear ratio matched unit. The amount of torque delivered at 975 rpm with a DD15 spec'd at 505 HP is 1,750 Ft Lbs and stays on a plane all the way to governed rpm range. Even in lower hp ratings it still produces 1550 torque at 975 rpm, the engine idles at 700. It's mass torque on demand. If this combination with all the custom programing available doesn't get the job done, then there is dysfunctional people behind the wheel. * https://www.velocitytruckcenters.com/s3/media/Engines/DD/DD15.pdf#:~:text=The%20DD15%20has%20excellent%20low-end%20torque%2C%20thanks%20to,provides%20the%20power%20you%20need%2C%20quickly%20and%20efficiently.
@Truck Shop , I assume the DT12vt doesn't have live PTO? My little Allison hook lift is handy like a shirt pocket. I need to get a short container and a flatbed, but I haven't made that a priority in the going on 7 years I've had the hoist.
A hook lift is handier than a shirt pocket. Had a single axle Hino with a hook on it for 10-15 yard cans in a roll off business I was partners in.
Really enjoy driving the ol' girl other than being slow and underpowered on the road. The cab is one of the best I've driven from International 4700 and 4300's, Hino's and Mack Granites. It's just a well built, tough old truck.
The DT12 has two places for PTO mounting, one at front bottom and one at right rear. As far as Live ability you would need to ask Freightliner on that issue. But I think it is capable. In video there is a large rear cover that is removed for a rear drive, not shown. *
My ('92) Ford cab is pretty good, but I do like the old R model cabs better.
Here make you happy. Old one with two piece grille, a twin stack Mack with a Merc on the back. *
Id give it a go may have grindy sounds but id make it either to the destination or along the road
Three things--don't shift the main till done shifting the aux. Don't get them both in neutral. Don't create gear overlaps.
A lot 20 psi boost, I really should have said 15 but w/e, is not going to hurt anything, what happens when your stuck and you have to hammer down to get the wheels moving, it's the same thing, stalling a converter is exactly what they are designed to do, it's the same as saying engaging the clutch is hard on a manual. Having never driven a auto shift, exactly what they are, trying any kind launch will always be better in an automatic. I rather let the computer launch an auto shift than a manual 100% of the time. A dump truck implies off road unless your only delivering to an asphalt crew. Getting stuck with no help is not fun or cheap, a dump driver with walking beam, A shovel, and an auto is very capable, and danger to the drive train is very low. A driver that pays attention will know he's in soft ground that will get him stuck and back out of there before getting stuck, without looking at the tires. This cannot be done in any other transmission. The picture in my avatar is my oil well service rig, a 70,000#+ 4 axle truck with an automatic. I put a 750 drd which is a 2nd start transmission, 1st is 8:1, if those autos are geared wrong it's because who spec'ed it that way. This thing is mine, I break it I have to fix it and pay for it. I drive in very similar conditions as a dump truck, it's all good till it ain't.
Gosh I'm sure glad I helped out in this thread.