https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucitsrh/?sl=32QSCI23049004 Cooper Besimer ? Fairbanks Morse ?
Hershlinn Frackler my guess.
I don't know enough to call your bluff, but after looking at an image of an apposed piston engine, I'm thinking Fairbanks...
The link below should take you to an article that I believe is about the boat and crew of the vessel you reference. Article claims the engine is a "1938 Fairbanks Morse 10 cylinder, opposed piston, 2,000-hp diesel engine". https://professionalmariner.com/last-of-navys-original-big-harbor-tugs-still-shines-in-puget-sound/
It is a Fairbanks Morse if it is in a tug. OP almost always = FM.
Thanks !!
Detroit Diesel 71 series. Bad Bob
Bluox, I can hear it from the prairie. !
Pokagon (YTB 836) was originally built for the US Navy. Pokagon has a single screw that is a stainless steel, four-bladed, 12-foot diameter propeller, driven by a 1938 Fairbanks Morse 10 cylinder, opposed piston, 2,000-hp diesel engine. The ship service generators are two 4-71, 60-kW Detroit Diesels. The fire pump delivers 2,000 gpm. https://professionalmariner.com/last-of-navys-original-big-harbor-tugs-still-shines-in-puget-sound/
Good article!! Coalrulz, great research! I looked all over for documentation and couldn’t find anything. I was wondering if it was direct reversing or if it has a RED gear. With a 12’ screw it probably redlines at 100 RPM. At this N. the engine should last at least 85 years with little wear. Can’t imagine not having a cylinder head. It would be interesting to know how automatic they change the fuel pressure and volume while underway, if it was in California the democrats probably forced a modernized the pyrometer/EGT schedule.
You were born in a small home with a dirt floor to know what that monstrosity is.
Hahaha, No, I was a helicopter pilot.
The Detroit is probably louder
My bad Coalrulz ! I somehow didn't did see your post. If I had, I wouldn't have touched my keyboard.
The fuel control is on the other side of the engine and I think that if the engine was reversible, the levers would be over there as well. I find it kind of satisfying that an old American made diesel engine served a full life in some other application or ship, was pulled, rebuilt and then installed in a lot newer tug and is still working in the local waters.
Being a 2 cycle engine, it wouldn't require moving a cam shaft for direct reversing unlike other 4 cycle Fairbanks Morse direct reversing engines.
Here's the fuel controller. I'm assuming the large black wheel is to adjust the fuel pressure / spray pattern.
The is a great photo. I'm not sure what the brass fixtures with the handles are. The engines I worked on were generators and had Woodward governors on them. There were a lot of different uses for those engines over the years. As I recall you have to change something in the air start distributor and on the fuel pump cams that run the fuel injection pumps. I believe that engine has one pump per cylinder.
One of the best engines there is. Opposed Fairbanks Morse. Who knows how great the more modern versions are though. If the case is a casting now it would be junk in my opinion.
The Fairbanks engines are welded steel blocks. I don’t know that they make them anymore. Colt Industries bought them out in the seventies and started building the Pielstick line of engines. Two strokes are gone for good.
Two strokes are gone for good….. I wonder if they could be brought into compliance with DEF and other electronic advances ? What a cool engine !!!
Looks like it redlines slightly over 400 RPM's by tach in the later pic. The really high HP engines in container ships turn 102 RPM's max. but they get overhauled regularly at about 12,000 hours. It only takes about a year and half to accumulate that many hours! They have a life expectancy of 25 years or about 175,000 hours! I'll have to see if I can find the article I read. It was amazing and shocking at the same time. The Wartsila Sulzer engines are 2 stroke. I would imagine it makes servicing and repair a lot easier. Did read a liner can be changed in about 11 hours. A crankshaft on a smaller but still big marine engine about 12 hours.
The auction ends on Monday, then it will be scrap metal. A few years ago, a local software worker purchased a sistership of this Tug, a Ballard yard, Yarded out the old engine with a crane, to be replaced with a high speed engine. The Tug capsized in the ship canal due to the change in CG. Should've ballasted, before lifting the old Fairbanks Morse.
They are alive and well according to this. 20 cylinders-- 5000 HP ! https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/Engines/Marine_Stationary_Engines.html
I think it was the Wartsila engine manual I was remembering. The engines are designed for about 2 years between overhauls. It is shocking when you consider the engines weigh 2300 tons. I would have thought they'd go 10 years or more considering how slow they turn. Must require pretty extensive training to be able to overhaul them in a timely manner.
Isn't that advert in respect of the MaK marine engine line that Cat bought a while ago.? I thought they went larger than that, well over 10,000 HP.? It seems I was right. 16,000 BKw/21,500 BHP - https://www.mak-catmarine.com/en_SA/products/mak-products.html
Imagine the sound if they turned 2600+ RPM like a 6V-53. What's interesting is the largest engines turn at the slowest RPM's. Cat engines like in the D8H turned at about 1/2 the RPM of new D8 engines and had a ton of torque. Seems lower speed should last longer. What are the main benefits of higher speed diesels over the older slower speed engines in relatively low HP ranges?
The appraisal group that I am in has a railroad expert. He will be the new president of the organization next year. He gave a presentation that stated no one has built a new railroad engine in multiple years. They are also a bit in limbo as to what is next. All the ad material will pitch the virtues of the builders engine. What you are getting is the gee whiz stuff for the general population on the outside of the industries. The RPM that one of those engines could turn had to do with the vessel they were in. The gensets that I worked on turned 900 RPM. There is no reason that 10 cylinder couldn't do that as well.
Before I forget, those Fairbanks engines are high speed engines. Speed ratings are a result of piston travel per minute or second and not revolutions per minute.
As far as RPM low speed is up to 200 RPM. The engine in the tug boat would be considered a medium speed diesel at 425 RPM or so. Fairbanks Morse had 1200 RPM engines though which are considered high speed. According to Perkins history on their website they produced the 1st high speed diesel but I don't think it includes marine and stationary engines. It's kind of confusing.
Speed factor is not a function of RPM. Low speed engines are rated as between 1 to 3. A medium speed engine is a speed factor of over 3 and up to 9. High speed engines are from 9 to 27 and super high ratings go up to 81. Piston speed on the Fairbanks 38D8 1/8 model at 900 RPM is about 1,500 feet per minute which makes for a speed factor of about 15. The 10 cylinder engine at 750 is still at a speed factor of 13. A Detroit 71 series might actually have a lower speed factor than that Fairbanks.
Last I checked the OP's were still made, they had one version that was about 50% efficient I think. And yes I know about the weldmet crankcase/ blocks and why I said what I did. I don't know if they are now cast or not. I think it is plain stupid to use cast iron for any large industrial engine over 1200 hp, I suppose not for a manufacture though. I remember my Cat days seeing a 3516 that one cylinder - piston rod, destroyed the whole block, there was no possible way to fix it. At the time I think that was a $75K part not sure though. So cast iron blocks are a good thing in that respect. Even the weldmet blocks have either castings or forgings for the crankshaft support webs I think, but not cast iron of course. Oh and not all Fairbanks Morse engines are fabricated like the old OP's.
After the yard swapped out the old engine for a modern engine, the tug sat with the screw halfway out of the water so that in heavy weather the propeller was completely out of the water. Maybe they were just testing / working the new governor ?
Anything under 800 rpm is slow speed, anything over 1200 or so is high speed if memory serves. Piston speeds? all over the place, large ship engines with 8 or more feet of stroke, I haven't run the numbers but I bet a 100 rpm ship engine with an 8 foot stroke will have close to the same piston speed as a small 20K rpm airplane engine.
What I was reading low speed was up to 200 RPM and 1200 RPM was high speed so FB had some high speed and some medium speed engines.
It isn't the revolutions that you run the engine at. All the Fairbanks 5 1/4 and 8 1/8 series engines are high speed engines. There is no some of this or some of that. All engines have a speed factor assigned to them in design. Your car idles at 600 to 700 RPM, does that make is a low speed engine?
I was reading how they classify marine engines based on RPM's. Low speed would be up to 200 RPM's. High speed would start at 1200 RPM. Medium speed would be from 201 to 1199 RPM. A car engine would a high speed because the max. RPM is above 1200. I realize a long stroke piston can be traveling really fast compared to the RPM of the engine.
It is the RPM's that specify the LOW, MEDIUM, HIGH speed engines. The FM op engines are medium speed I think. Key word,"Your car engine idles at". To classify engine speed range that will be governed speed, that the power is made at. Not at idle. Someone said the 2 strokes are gone. Not at all. FM makes them, and EMD. Don't forget the large 2 stroke ship engines Sulzer Wartsila etc.
What book are you reading? I've never seen an engineering book that states that. Here is a link with a description of the company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks-Morse#cite_note-20 Here is a summary of where they are now. Note the date of 2019 for the comment of August 2019. In the 1990s, Fairbanks Morse merged with ALCO to make the FM | ALCO line. In October 2013, FM signed a joint development and licensing agreement with Achates Power to reduce emissions and fuel consumption of Fairbanks Morse proprietary and dual-fuel opposed-piston engines. [19] The opposed-piston (OP) diesel engine once made by Fairbanks-Morse is still (August 2019) manufactured. [20] Also, Fairbanks-Morse still (November 2021) manufactures large four-stroke diesel engines such as the FM 48/60 CR series, which ranges from 7,200 to 19,200 kWm in output. [21] Here is the web page for Fairbanks Morse Defense. https://www.fairbanksmorse.com/diesel-products The opposed piston engines are known at FM/Trident OP. Their link to that site is dead. All the other engine links are live.
In the maritime trade mags I read, they seem to refer to low, medium and high speed engines by RPM. A 900 RPM EMD is considered medium speed. Engineers must have their language and the end users have theirs.
I'm not on a computer so can't post a link but I read that FM had 1200 RPM engines and also had some lower RPM models too. The one shown in this thread shows a tach with red markings starting at about 425 RPM's. It looks like if the needle went all the way around it would be 800 RPM. That would put it in the medium speed range according to how they are rated by RPM.
Common sense, engine speed has always been based on the rotation speed of the crank shaft. Piston speeds can be very close to the same speed in a 100 rpm engine as in a 20,000 rpm engine. So piston speed is not how engine speed is determined. Here is the definition in a book. Diesel and High Compression Gas Engines 3rd edition By Edgar J. Kates William E. Luck ---- Page 70 Engines Classification by Use. Paragraph 5 "However, engine speed is so common a classification that it can not be ignored. So where engine speed is mentioned in this book, it is inteneded to mean the following: Low speed -- below 350 rpm Medium speed -- 350 to 1200 rpm High speed -- above 1200 rpm" -------- On the FM site they show the OP engine as available.
Here is a government publication that explains the engineering.
So you can change the speed of the engine by changing the length of the crankshaft on the same frame/sleeves/pistons/rods. Like GM making a 6.6L (400ci) out of a 6.2L engine.
Found a cutaway view of the 10 cylinder Farirbanks. Appears that engine does not have a flywheel, 2 stroke with 10 opposed cylinder doesn't leave much crank travel between power strokes?
I wonder how common crankcase explosions were, with this engine ? Twice as common than with an EMD or any single crank engine ? Imagine a modern 2 cycle OP engine with a variable valve timing - changing the length of the crank ?
You might possibly change the engines speed factor by changing the length of the crankshaft throws. It would also change the operating characteristics of the engine. How would it be possible to have a crankcase explosion? The engines I worked on were dry sumps. The engine oil pump was 310 gallons a minute while the scavenge pump was something like 340. The oil tank for the engine held somewhere around 300 gallons of engine oil. There are no intake or exhaust valves in the engine. There are ten power strokes on every rotation of that ten cylinder engine. The engines that I worked on had flywheels. It was the ring gear on the flywheel that was used to manually turn the engine when you had to do some maintenance. I know the bore on the 38D 8 1/8 engine is eight and one eighth inch. I can't find the stroke in my book but seem to remember it being ten inch. There is also a lead angle between the crankshafts of twelve degrees. Our eight cylinder engines running at about 80% power would burn 100 gallons of JP5 per hour. I have a repair and parts manual for the eight cylinder engines which has photos and line drawings. If you have any questions or would like some photos out of the book, let men know.
I would say the crank case explosion on this engine were as common as the Detroit diesels, which I have never heard of exploding.
Provided there is oil vapour in the crankcase below the piston I imagine the possibility of a crankcase explosion is always there, esepcially on larger engines. I've worked with 4-stroke marine diesel engines that had blowout prevention valves on the crankcase doors for just that reason, plus there were warning signs on all the crankcase doors (even the ones without the BP valves) cautioning not to remove them until the engine was below a certain temperature.
Yeah as I said, just as common as any other engine.
I can't think of a way to get volatile vapor inside a Fairbanks. Fuel dilution is possible but the USN was doing engine oil samples when I was there in 1974. Damage to the engine would happen before the level got explosive. Oil in the muffler was a bigger issue than anything on those engines. It was also a reason they wouldn't have met anyones pollution specs.
Probably not unlike locomotive engines that can throw fire balls out the exhaust from not being worked hard and excessive idling. Read where someone who worked for a railroad said they could throw baseball size gobs out the exhaust.
Navy, wow messed up and over complicated. No one else figures the speeds that way. Note the book I mentioned. "The product is divided by 100,000" and where did they dig up 100,000? That must be some old war publication or ? Many old books written by folks in the military are non standard and usually just things a certain person dreamed up, to support the task at hand. Just simply use the max designed rpm's that it is governed at, and all based on the loads that the crankchain parts are designed for. This is what is the norm now. https://maritimereview.ph/selection...engines-for-the-navy-and-coast-guard-vessels/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_propulsion scroll down to diesel engines. A search brought up nothing about that speed factor for navy engines.
The navy book was first published in 1938 and last reviewed and published in 1968. Its only over complicated to those who can’t understand it. Did you read the pages explaining speed factor? Thanks for the links.
I didn't read past "government publication" That was all I needed to know
No need to go on then.
Yes I did. That is why I ask where did the 100,000 come from? Who cares about speed factor? What is important and what does the work and will be a factor in propeller pitch or gear ratio is RPM's. I've given some links to how, Low speed, Medium speed, and High speed is determined in the engine world. It is based on an RPM range, not a speed factor, that some goof from 1935 invented out of thin air to prove to his subordinates that he was a brilliant person. I've seen many publications from those days that come across like that. Sorry. No disrespect to you, as I actually highly respect you.
The auction on these boats ended. The three of them sold for between $34,000. and $62,000. about the same amount as past auctions produced. They're supposed to drain the fuel tanks before the sale. If they left the fuel in, there's probably $500,000. worth of fuel in the tank.
Wow how much fuel they hold?
I’ve never operated one and don’t know. But I’m guessing somewhere around 75k to 100k gallons