I saw this posted somewhere else and rather than that hi jack that thread I just start a new one. I hear someone describe a engine as being "ether addicted" to the point that it wont start without the use of. My years of experience tells me that if a engine is mechanicaly sound(good compression,working fuel system,starting system to specs) it will fire off on its own accord and the use of starting fluid only masks the real starting problem. I mean really...... its a pile of nuts and bolts with no soul or reasoning abilities so please someone explain to me how a inanimate object develops a addiction??
Well, doesn't the use of ether cause a loss of compression over time? If that's the case then you can't have "good compression" and a "starting problem that's being masked" at the same time- you "do" have a starting problem. (sorry, can't figure out a better way to word that)
Either has no lubricant properties so when the vapor is drawn into the cylinder it cuts the oil. A little bit at a time in cold weather usually isn't a problem. A little bit in warm weather indicates possibly a problem somewhere else to start with but the fix may cost a lot of money so people just keeping using it. Now that the compression is down, even a new fuel system requires a shot of cocaine to get out of bed on a cold mourning.
that is why I don't even own a can of the stuff
The military loves the stuff! I work on a base in Ar. where it does not get too cold and there all the old 5 ton truck have a either system on them. I dont like to use it though. Something about all the dry knocking when they start that I dont like!!
When its cold I think its ok to use a little. Hopefully my equipment wont get addicted. Like cocaine use it in moderation.
The problem with starting fluid is the dose one gives it. Excessive amounts will wash oil film from cylinders and rings as John C stated. But it's near impossible for someone to give the "just enough to do the job" dose when shooting through an air cleaner lid, through the primary air filter, through the secondary filter, through the piping...you get the picture. Ether injection systems on the other hand, give a small measured shot, just enough to excite ignition. The injection nozzle is typically located in the piping very close to the intake, doesn't have to travel far to reach combustion chambers. Also, the injection nozzle of the system produces a very fine mist of ether, no heavy droplets. Ideally, you start cranking engine, which puts fuel mist in the combustion chambers, and give it a shot while cranking. The ether mixes with the atomized fuel, and combustion happens quickly without a lot of fanfare from the percussion section of an engine banging and knocking from a heavy dose of liquid fire.
You can over dose the engine on either.Then ya got Big Troubles.
Starting fluid is a mixture of volatile hydrocarbons (heptane, butane or propane), diethyl ether, and carbon dioxide(as a propellant). It works due to the low auto ignition temperature of diethyl ether: (320 °F), which doesn't require as high of a compression to fire it. Poor batteries, a weak starter, worn rings, worn valve seats, a worn fuel injection pump and injectors are all things that I have encountered with machines that were so called " either addicts ". There are usually 1 or more of these conditions present that cause a machine not to be able to fire on its own systems. Engine rebuild = $1000.'s of dollars..... Starting fluid = $3.00 per can. Just my 2 pennies worth.......NOW........ Every piece of new cat equipment on our location has factory either starting aids on them. Cat installs an intake air temperature sensor on the manifold that tells the ECM (engine control module) when its below a certain (30*) ambient air temperature to automatically inject the either to help the machine start.
What about gas? An old timer showed me a trick one time: You take a rag and put gas on it, you dont need to soak it down just put enough on it to that it gives off the fumes. Then you just wrap it around your air filters and crank it over. It's not either but i'm pretty sure its along the same lines as either.
I have used the gas on a rag trick.I have used WD40 to start an engine.
I've got several either addicted engines, they are basically shot and have too low of compression to fire when it gets cold out, anything under 50 degree's so they get either to fire them up and get them running, now one of these days when money plenty I don't plan on overhauling them, I plan on replacing them with another engine make and model and repowering the machine, thus the either injection method. No I hate either but there are cases where its the lesser of two evils, we need to start the engine and its too far from a plug in to keep the engine warm and not having the money to repower the machine with something better so we keep using either. I've had several older engines that we installed glow plugs in the intake manifold to warm the air enough so we didn't need either to start them but that was only a temporary fix as well, they needed overhauling and new injectors and the injection pump gone through as well. I knew what was wrong but didn't have the funds to do it right, there is a difference.
You know there is a right way to go about using either. A lot of times I'll pump the primer pump up for a minute or two when its real cold out.
When the production superintendant is standing there at 0430 giving you the stink eye because one of his prize 777a model cat trucks won't start, you fogg it until it lites.
simple as this old detroits live on either to start in new england with no addiction
I seen this post, I've got to tell this story. I was on a road call on time for a road tractor, typical stuff cold, customer had already had the filters off, ran the batteries completely dead. So I didn't have good starting point. I got the the thing charged, but never was able to get the engine to crank very fast, but I thought I had I fuel in the head. While I was waiting, these guys were telling my they just spent $25,000 on reman engine for this truck. They started to get a little impatient with me, they decided to pull start it, didn't work. So it was time for the either, one guy at the helm, one guy on the either can standing on the fender well. They got it running on either and ran this thing around the parking lot on either 1 can, 2 cans, 3 cans. After about for 4 laps like this they gave up and I went back to work on it. 10 minutes later I found a ECM power problem and the truck was running. I never seen the guys anymore, but this truck my very well be addicted now, the poor thing!!!!
I recently was sent to get a machine started that would "start and run for a second, and then die." Manager sent mme with a fuel shutoff (3wire external solenoid on a 5.9 cummins in a wheel loader) sounded like a typical 30 minute job. Shutoff was bad on the hold in coil. Changed it and tried to start engine. Batteries weak so tried again with jumpercables. After banging my head against the wall for 1/2 the day unable to start it, the operator comes and tells me it hasn't been running for at least 3 weeks. They had several shadetree guys out (later described as "pill-heads") and each told them a different story. As the story was fully told, the guy said the other guys went through 6 new batteries trying to start it and wore them all out. I asked him to show me how they started it (or tried). First thing he does is give it a shot of either 3 times bigger than I would have. Next day we came back and ran a compression check. Several cyls. were low on compression. Basically it had a bad shutoff solenoid, but the guys couldn't figure it out so they just kept dumping the nose candy in it and burnt up the engine. So instead of calling the dealer and having them install a normal part, they wasted alot of time and now they are looking at a huge bill to fix someone elses stupidity! You win some, you lose some.
Love, those folks that do things like that. It makes my days interesting, and keeps me in business. I think either is a wonderful thing if used with some common sense. It is very dry, even the ones that claim upper cylinder lube included. I think long term use, like running it long enough to get a fuel system primed every day for a while could cause cylinder wall and ring wear, and may cause a addiction problem over time for lack of compression. It's really hard on certain injector types running them on either with no fuel at the injectors, the tips get extremely hot quick with no fuel to cool them. Rehab is easy though, just a bunch of new parts and labor.....
if you ever have been around terex machines with Detroits in the cold weather you know a either addict.
I have a ford 4500 backhoe that I need to give a small dose of either to start UNLESS the block heater is pluged in. If the block heater - located in a freeze plug - is pluged in, she will start without either with no problem. Why is this happening? As a result, I try to plug her in all the time to avoid using either. John
Diesel fuel needs heat to burn, heat comes normally from a combination of air/engine heat and compression, if those two are enough (warm weather or block heater) it'll light. A warm engine also spins faster to increase the combustion chamber pressure faster. Ether adds to the equation by lighting off much earlier than diesel, increasing heat and compression and should assist the diesel fuel part in firing. Ether will run a diesel engine but generally its meant to increase temperature, pressure and speed to get the main system lit. Low compression, cold temps, poor fuel delivery all make an engine not want to start on its own.
if you have ever owned international stuff. you will buy it by the case. pre heat all ya want to. there are different types of equipment being discussed here. i have discovered the carbon in the little holes in the end of the injectors plug with time. i cured one by simply taking a wire from a wire brush. hammering it to a tiney screwdriver tip. put that wire in a little holder and twist it in the little holes untill they are clean and the tip can spray a mist again instead of dribbling out the fuel. the mist will ignite. the dribble will make the engine sort of run but NOT start. the ether jumps that gap. all injectors over time will carbont he little holes shut. but i have had several international style engines and starting was crazy. glo plugs. eyther. what ever. just hate it. addiction is putting it mildly. one answer is buying really good fuel. or dumping some gas in it for extra boost. especially in the cold weather. i have a allic chalmers 180 that needs just a whif and i mean the shortest shotyou can possibly give it. eitherthat or crank and crank and smoke and smoke but no ignition. runs perfect. lots of power. will not start cold. ????
Actually,today's ether is so watered down that unless you were actually using it to keep the engine running,I doubt it would hurt anything if you use it VERY sparingly and ONLY after the engine turns over for a few seconds to get some oil pressure going.I've seen cans that say ''with upper cylinder lubricant.''
i've used the wd trick, some like it and some don't.
I once rebuilt an engine out of a John Deere 670 grader. The owner sent his own guys down to pick it up and install it themselves. They called up a couple days later complaining about massive amounts of blow-by, and leaking head gasket. This time they brought the whole machine in, and all the head bolts were stretched, and rings broken. Instead of priming the fuel system when they installed the engine, they just poured the **** to her. They paid for a second overhaul.
I LOVE using it to kill wasps.Freezes them in mid air or in their nests.Shrivels them right up.
I love the bee trick!!
Never NEVER
Yep, I've done the bee trick with ether but with a twist, I have a hand torch in the other hand. heh heh heh I was also showed the gas and rag trick, it works pretty slick as you can't overdose with it and no knocking!
Back in the early 60's I was stationed on a repair ship in San Diego, we were tied to buoys in the bay on cold foggy mornings we have to start the liberty boats up to pick the crew up. The boats were powered by 2 valve 6-71's with 6 volt batteries we had no ether so we used a burning rag on the air inlet to start one engine and tried to drag the other one one line or we just ran one engine until the batteries recharged
At anywhere below zero degrees F., older Cat and other make pre-combustion engines generally will not start, even if all mechanical items are perfect. Hell, a lot of direct injection engines won't start either. That when you pull out the ether cans and give them a good snort. How to start a Cat 651B 67K on a cold dark January morning in Wyoming: This also works in New Jersey, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, West Virginia, Illinois, Michigan, Colorado, and Utah and Nevada. 1. Get to jobsite and sit in pickup cursing cold weather for a few minutes. 2. Put coveralls and other cold weather gear on. 3. Curse cold weather some more. 4. Get in toolbox and retrieve two cans of ether. 5. Stuff more ether cans in your pockets. 6. Bang on cab door so it will break loose and open. 7. Have your buddy get in cab and have him jam transmission in reverse. 8. Turn master switch on and start preheating the glowplugs for minimum two minutes, more likely four minutes. 9. Use that time to crawl up the ladder on right side. Be careful, it's slippery you fool! 10. Beat snow off air cleaners. Remove both air cleaner covers. 11. Spray thick pattern of ether on both inner air filters. 12. Have partner jam thottle to floor and start cranking the engine. 13. Shoot more ether on inner air filters. 14. Duck large cloud of soot and ash coming out of muffler. 15. If engine begins to fire off on a couple of cylinders, shoot more ether in. Make sure partner stays on thottle. It has to be on the floor! 16. As engine begins to rev up, give it more ether. 17. As transmission starts to drag engine RPM down, give the engine air filters more ether. 18. When engine tachs out and trans is whining good, reinstall both outer air filters tightly. 19. After engine starts and you have about 60 pounds of air built up, pull the retarder in all the way and keep that engine up at full RPM. This forces the tranny oil to heat up quickly. Let retarder go after oil temp comes up a bit. 20. Motion partner to pull trans into neutral whilst keeping thottle to floor. As the engine starts to torque down, shoot more ether in the precleaner bonnet. 21. When engine is finally idling normally, carefully step down, throw empty ether cans at pickup, and move on to the next one. Remember, you started getting the iron ready at four in the morning for a 7AM production start. One down, nineteen to go..... Then the pushcats, compactors, and graders 22. Call down to the warehouse for more ether or send someone in to town to get a pallet or so. 23. Repeat untill all 20 pans are started. Put production supt off as it's now 7:30AM. 24. Repeat next day. Remember, just because you got the big bustards started, doesn't mean they are going to move anywhere. The brakes are froze you know. If the above does not work, leave that machine sit and go on to the next. When you have as many started as possible, start working back thorough the line. 1. Try all the dead ones at least once. Didn't start, huh? Not unusual! 2. While you remove the trans input shaft cover (at rear of trans), have your pard remove the outer air filters again. 3. Hook up a machine that started easily (probably a D9) with a set of double 00 jumper cables to the batteries under the cover on the right front. If you are lucky, use the Cat quick-start jumpers instead, they are far better than any clamp on jumpers, and using them is much less dangerous than jumping straight to the batteries) 4. Start engine, let it run until the coolant guage shows it's up to operating temperature. Shut engine off. 5. Keep trans in reverse all this time. 6. Reinstall trans drive shaft, cover, and retainer bolts. 7. Mash thottle to floor, hold it there. 8. Attempt to start engine again. 9. If it starts, follow steps 18-20 above. 10. Reinstall outer air filters and covers. You did help the engine with more ether didn't you? 11. Remove jumpers and reinstall cover if you took it off. (this is a good time to check and tighten battery terminal clamps and make sure battery cables are snug in their clamps. Make double sure the battery holddowns are in good repair and fastened down tight. 12. Oh crap, you forgot the brakes are frozen to the drums, didn't you? My crew and I worked from 4AM to noon one Saturday in 1975 trying to get 20 651's started. At noon we had half of them going, but production decided that ten wasn't enough and went home. (bar) MY crew spent the rest of the day getting the other ten going and performing general maintenance. I could tell about many other places this had to be done with the B-series D346 engines and 8-speed transmissions. This method of starting extreme cold weather machines was not only approved by Caterpillar engineers and techs, they came up with the original idea. Some early 67K's that went to Alaska for Green Construction actually had a dog clutch installed between the torque divider and the transmission input shaft. These didn't work out too well and around 67K65 the idea was discontinued. That's when the factory came up with the plan of placing the trans in reverse. They found out in field tests that the transmission pump, in neutral, tried to build up too much pressure, around 400+ pounds I believe. In reverse, the trans safety valve only spooled up to about 60 pounds and that allowed the engine to keep turning over. As the trans oil began to loosen up and with the engine at full RPM, you could pull the trans into neutral, but you had to stay on it. Once we got the hang of it, starting these beasts became much easier. Those that are familiar with the D-series 60-degree engines know that at less than full RPM, these machines couldn't get out of their own way. At full blast, they were nearly unstoppable. Surprisingly, we had few engine or transmission failures. We kept two pallets of new batteries in stock and a pallet of starters too. We had a standing order for a pallet of ether every week from NAPA, and sometimes had to buy more. Ether is a great tool for starting engines, cleaning oil and grease off parts, thowing out frozen door handles and padlocks. Used with care and experience, it will not hurt an engine, or you.
If people would service the injectors& possibly valve adjustment at the recomended intervals or do the following! You would not need lightning in the can,and little does 90% of yall know that transmission fluid atf (red stuff) is the best carbon cutter out there for long term use! I rebuild injection pumps,turbos and injectors,I also teach classes once a month(2day class),testomonial customer brings in 6 injectors out of a 6bt cummins with 250k miles for me to rebuild,tore down the first one at my bench and it was shinny silver inside! ( wow never seen this before ) So I took the other 5 to the pop tester and they had spray patterns like new ones,so I called him to come get them because they did'nt need nothing( oh the first one was like new too) I asked him what kind of cond. or cleaner additive he used and he said that he would split a quart of atf between his two tanks on his pickup truck ,he said they were 17 or 18 gallon tanks.So I have always figured 1 pint per 17 gallons! Everyone else cries lucas,&misc. what i say lucas mucas! But after rebuilding aprox.500 set of injectors over my 25 years.Im sold,expecially for the price! matter of fact I keep a 5 gallon can at my friends tranny shop and they save some of the cleaner atf of their services,and I strain it,works fine! I also run it in my 2000 buick,keeps it in top shape. face it- its petroleom gas or diesel ! Lucas to me is just glorified STP, as far as oil additive,I go with oil additives with PTFE (teflon) encylopedia says its the slickest thing known to man ! And I will back that up by saying that when I first used a PTFE additive to my oil in a v8 diesel It ran 200 rpms higher and had to idle it down ,next oil change i did'nt use it and had to idle it back up 200 rpm, sold me again lucas mucas! (BY THE WAY SLICK 50 DOS'NT USE PTFE ANYMORE) I told them they need to take it out of the stores then! And there is some greases that have PTFE in them that works very well, I had a certain sealed roller bearing that kept going bad,the last time I changed it I picked the seal off one side and washed their grease out and packed it with PTFE grease well 10 years later Im still running that same bearing! Sold me again Lucas mucas ! THANKS IM NEW HERE HOPE I CAN HELP WITH SOME PROBLEMS EXPECIALLY FUEL PROBLEMS DOC DSL.
Thank god i live in florida,that scared the crap out of me! Hat off to ya! We all need a bumper sticker that reads " be nice to your mechanic"
Where in God's green earth is Lorida ,Florida
You notice were the Surfer lives now
Yea I could just imagine getting all that equipment started,heck when its 30 degrees I cant hardley function,my feet get cold.But Ive slowed down alot at 49yr,Ive worked on everything from a to z ,except a dam weed eater and a chainsaw,It wont happen! When I was 17 I threw that mcoula saw down and stomped it ,never again! Whats strange is I rebuild injector pumps-cat,bosch,cav,stanadyne&turbos ,but cant fix a weedeater or saw! But yea I slowed down to mainly injection,build a diesel engine once in a while if the price is right! Have a good one surfer dude
Found the cure for ether starts on a 50's cummins J, replace the J with a 4BTA no more ether!
yes I have one in my 97 k-3500 4 door 26 mpg!
Whatever the machine is, fire it up in October and shut it off in May!!!!
I had an old Rabbit brought in once that ripped the threads off of all 10 head bolts and blew the head clean off the block, shattered all 4 pistons, and bent all 4 rods as a result of an ether start. Even blew the head gasket into little pieces and scattered it all over the engine bay.
Went to a service call with another guy just after Christmas a few years ago. Customer had a brand new 850 Hitachi that had been down all week for no start. Customer said they serviced it and now it only runs on ether. Said they've had a few guys on it over that week and they all had the same answer: runs on ether only. I hop up, check the fluids while my coworker chats with the customer about it. I get down in the cab, flip on the fuel shutoff switch under the seat and tell them both to stand clear cause its gonna fire up. The look of anger/relief on the customer's face was priceless when I told him that nobody bothered to check the fuel shutoff switch. No idea if anything was damaged but it ran great so we left and went to the next call.
Got a call once about a Freightliner no start issue. Got there and saw several empty cans on the ground and 2 primer pumps (3406E Cat). Problem was a bad ECM feed fuse behind the battery box that was corroded to heck from deicer spray. Fired right up after replacing the inline fuse holders. A week later it showed up at the shop on the hook, it was belching black smoke like coal fired locomotive, the tip on #3 injector was gone... Wonder how that happened?
My grandfather usedta have a A-C D-19 diesel, that figgered out how to huff up a can of ether, all by itself... I think it was the electric solenoid valve, that would stick, on the ether injection system. After I got the tractor, I never used ether, again, installed a tank type pre-heater, and never had another problem...
Beer distributor driver stopped in the shop saying his truck was making unusual power and noise. You could smell ether walking up to it. {This happened in 1989 by the way} It was a International C.O.E.-his delivery clip board had fallen of the dog house and landed on the ether switch located on the floor shift tower, every time he hit a good bump it would get a shot of ether. He had driven 35 miles that way he figured. That BCIII ate the whole bottle. Truck Shop
I've install a bunch of ether injector systems on heavy equipment, I always tie into starter solenoid trigger wire for power. No crank... No ether.
When you tear down an engine is it possible to tell if its hooked on the ether? What would you typically see? Scuffed liners/pistons, broken rings etc?
Broken rings are a big telltale. usually leading to scuffed liners.
. OLD late 60's White Freightliner, Cummins six bolt heads NH220, was a mess and a hard start. Old boy on yard was new to yard work was our yard truck where sat A LOT. We often called it the One Eyed Wonder, wondered why it still ran and only a Left headlamp in it. Was cold, below zero for days in Ft Scott KS, wind whistling across the yard and some trucks sat no block heaters. Came to work on a Monday, weekend crews had been excused but snow was off the roads and we were told to show up. Old yard man, just started, had to get One Eye started to move trailers on the yard, dumb as one can get, was taught to use ONE GEAR. Had a CASE of ether squirt cans and the starting cart, went out to the truck, jumped in the seat, pulled the compression release and hit the button, rapid clicks only so hooked up the starting cart while at it shot s long snort of ether in the Air cleaner stack(oil bath A/C behind front tire). Sat a few minutes in the yard shack came over RE-ethered, then climbed in cab, harump, click click click, jumps down back to shack. Couple guys wrestle the charging cart off for two other trucks with block heaters and got them running then hooked back up on One Eye. After around fifteen minutes another dose of ether, can empty bought another one and loaded some more. Mind you ALL the mechanics are now taking or making book of what is gonna happen. MORE ether, and Harump click click click. Off he stomps cold and getting tired. Left the cart connected for an hour maybe more, figured to cut a fat hog here he came again and Emptied no. 2 or 3 at this time. Jumps in cab, sun had come out and was shining well on the back of the block where the wind had died off. Grabbed compression release, spun up dumped the cable VAROOM, then RUNAWAY as ALL the ether laying in that oil bath got sucked up at once, and BANG, Smoke rolling. Guy is sitting behind the wheel, we can see his eyes from the shop HUGE!! Go out to see if need fire department but alas the One Eyed monster is dead, center head sitting funny in the hole, LARGE dent in doghouse hump from head coming up, at LEAST four of the six head bolts had been cracked a while, guess pistons swapping holes pushed it off the block pretty abruptly!! Guy **** himself, went home never came back quit.
Our biggest horse on the farm was a 3306 with glow plugs, so we had a strict "no ether" policy. But we didn't run much stuff in the winter, and we had ways to plug them in (or use the propane tiger torch and a stove pipe to take the chill off). In fact, I think the first place that I saw ether used was as a teen, and dad had an AWFUL J20 Jeep pickup (gas) that had an oddball Motorcraft carb that Ford never used themselves, and we figure it was overfueling and washing the walls down. Dad got mad one day when it wouldn't start and tried to help it... When we did use ether later, on some older engines, the rules were pretty clear - it was always a two-man job, if possible, and just a whiff in the air intake, and only while the other person had the engine wheeling over. Dad said that when my grandpa was around, he'd start by emptying a can into the intake, then jump in to start, often without even trying the engine to see if it would start. That made dad awfully sensitive to the horrible knocking sound! The best ether story I have, though, from the machine shop at home... big cooperative farm operation that ran older stuff had an engine fail in a well-used tractor (IHC 1066, I think). Machine shop rebuilt it. A short time later, it was back in the shop in worse shape. Assumption was that they messed something up during the rebuild or didn't do break-in properly, so the shop rebuilt it again. Sure enough, it was soon back again. So this time, they sent someone from the shop to ride while the machine was in use. As happens, there was a young fellow (12? 14? years old) running the tractor. Everything was going well until he got to a tough spot in the field. When the tractor started to really work, the young man pressed what he called the "power button" on the dash. Sure enough, he had been using the ether injection to get through tough spots or assist up hills in the field!! danr
holy christ, up in Key Lake Sask. they just put quick couplers on the coolant lines and had 6 pickups that sat in the shop all night that also had QC's drive out to the machines and hook the coolant lines and an airline to them (to spin the starters, needed air cause the batteries froze) we could start 60 machines in 4 hours at -65c, mind you the pickups were dead by march, but a $24k chevy is a lot cheaper than D11's and those terex shovels
So watered down that you can take all the either off the tire repair truck....
yes, all the above