The intent of this thread is to provide a single point of reference for owners of old Fiat dozers. There's quite a few of these dozers still out there, hard at work. There's also quite a lot of hard won knowledge out there. The idea is to try to get some of this knowledge recorded in the one place, rather than locked away in the heads of the various owners and mechanics. If you have had to repair or modify a 70CI, please record your story for posterity. Images are nice, but not compulsory. If you have a 70CI story, broken, bogged, or just having fun, please, let's have it. Images are nice, and compulsory! If you have a question about fixing a 70CI, fire away. The only thing I ask is that you take the trouble to tell us how it worked out. Nothing worse than spending a heap of time helping someone with a problem and never hearing the end of the story.:beatsme To set the general tone, here's some images of my trusty 70CI (says AD7, still a 70CI) solving a small problem of a rock sticking out of the ground right in front of a gateway. All our rocks around here are floaters and I had a theory that if a rock stuck out of the ground, it could be dug out. Unfortunately the images start near the end of the story, about five hours after the start, and don't show the forty or so other large rocks that were dug out along the way. The image before I started would have shown basically flat ground with a rock, about 12" x 16" and sticking 10" up, just in the way every time you went through the gate. I proved my point, it stuck out and it was dug out, but that was the last time I expressed that theory! Mind you, it was also the last time I had to dodge that rock when I went into the paddock.
utwood good idea as I thik i have said but please leave a christian name so i know im talking with a human, thanks garrie
Is that one of those "tree pushers" I have heard about people having on dozers in aussie and NZ?
Hi Nutwood, good idea. You get treated like a lepper when you mention you have a Fiat bulldozer. I have Fiat Bd12, Which is 125hp naturally aspirated. It has served me well. I have built 2 shed sites, one water tank site ( 160 k liters ) and a dam, Plus minor tracks and stump clearing. I will post some photos when they let me. Regards Martin
Hi Garrie, hope you don't mind but I prefer to not use names on the net. Ditto rego numbers in images, private e.mails addresses etc, etc. Of course, it's entirely possible I'm not human also. The idea of this thread is that it's not about me, it's about Fiat dozers. If it becomes a useful resource it'll be thanks to Fiat owners who contribute. Yep, that's a tree pusher. When it's not pushing trees it's also useful for seeing the blade angle and height as it pokes up just nicely where you can see it. I don't think I have any images of it in action but next bit of track building, I'll see what I can do. Regarding putting images up, I found this which gives some good info on how to do it. Further down there's some suggestions for software to reduce images to a size that'll be accepted (640 x 640). My images above are 640 x 480. I'll be interested to see a BD12 as I've never met one before
Nice pics nutwood (looks like you got the pic posting thing mastered) - she looks in good condition & i do like the tree pusher linkage setup (some pics of that please when you get a chance) - my tree pushers go back onto the c frame & rest on the blade which is a pain when you want to tilt or angle the blade. Jimbob P.S. ok seen the pic posting info you posted just b4 my post
Some Pics Ok here goes for adding pics - 1 is my 1st rig after doing the head studs etc and getting a bit carried away - 2 is my third rig with my Dad having a play on it just after I got it (points awarded for guessing what the tank at the back is) - 3 is where it sits now waiting for some steering clutches that work (thanks Nutwood) Jimbob
Hey, nothing wrong with those images. Your #1 rig seems similar to mine but #3 is a different setup altogether. Not too sure about that tank. It's not some sort of supplementary cooling system is it? Surely it's not diesel? I'd be nervous with any sort of liquid (well most liquids ) just behind my head like that, especially when the rest of the machine looks like it was set up with falling timber in mind. How about a closer shot before I give up? I see you have a nice spot for your repair. How far from home is that?
As the question was what is it id say a water-tank from a caravan, its purpouse id need another guess, is that a fire extinguiser i see hanging on the left behind your dads left shoulder position ? if it is fantastic, you never know when youll need one,good safety back-up.
Both right on the caravan water tank as a supplementary cooling system - when i got this one i knew it had a broken head stud (you can lift it up & down) and that it seems to only leak outwards (lucky) and since i haven't gotten over the last head stud job and really just needed this thing to finish off a few jobs in the short term - i cheated & hooked up a garden hose with an inline drip system tap handy to the operator & ran the hose straight into the radiator cap Just had to wrap some thread tape around the stud to limit the leak from there & every few passes when backing up just top up the radiator - You know it's enough when you get misted from the fan spray if you don't see it start to come out the radiator . Yeah i do carry a fire extinguisher Garrie, but thats not it & its not usually strapped in - with the amount of grease & oil & diesel under any old dozer they are a real firebomb & go up real quick - the bloke i bought this one off was welding mesh on his scrub canopy on his newish D4 while i was rewiring the Fiat to be able to get it onto a truck - he had an extinguisher nearby but it gets away pretty quick. No, that red thing hanging from the canopy just in front of left shoulder is a stubbie cooler for tallies that has a couple of eyelets to enable a short rope to the roof - it has a couple of functions; 1. you can tell what angle you are on & at what stage it will tip over (if you live to tell the tale) 2. when you create speed bumps the rocking motion is enough for it to whack you in the face to teach you not to do that ointhead 3. you can put a cooling beverage in it but because of #2, i only have soft plastic bottles of water in it instead of hard glass 750mm bottles I am lucky the m/c stopped on a flat bit of track - but to get there is pretty steep (4wd only) but not too far from home. It does seem to be a little unusual in it's ram setup compared to almost all other 70ci AD7's & later. I do prefer the other (std) setup as it seems to be more responsive and its always a worry when you're doing scrub & tree work with a lot o big trees & branches getting pretty close to the hoses & fittings etc - one of them smashed the tilt rams fitting off (need to build a guard around that).
Could you expand a little on how you calibrated this device?! I wondered about those hoses. I often have trees coming up the side trying to tear away what they can. I've always been glad the throttle is on the other side to the master clutch. If you can't get one, you can get the other! I'm with you on the need for a tilt ram guard. When I bought my dozer it had some impressive gouges in the shaft. Wouldn't have thought you could have achieved them with rocks. Of course they were on the underside of the ram where they couldn't be seen until it started leaking. $900 later...
counted the bruises in my head Yeah - i had to do one of the big 6" rams on #3. Even just buying the vee pack seals was a few hundred bucks! Saved a few bucks by using JB weld to fill up the grooves in the rod, then polish it down with wet & dry - worked a treat!
I can see I'm going to have to investigate this JB weld. It's a new one for me. The gouges in my shaft were about 1/4" deep. Would it have handled that sort of damage? I replaced the shaft, hence the $900. The seals weren't too bad but 0.5m of 2" moly and some serious welding did the damage. Agree with you about the stability. One day when I've got a big excavator handy I'd like to make the experiment and find just where the roll-over point is. I suspect it's way past my comfort zone!
wow - 1/4" grooves might be too much for JB but brazing could work for that but doing the job right is a new rod in that case i'm sure - or - just before i got #3 dozer i was looking at putting a tilt ram on #1 - i found a rural tractor dealership with BareCo parts that could get a new bareco ram 12" x 4" x 2" for $250ish (definately less than 300) which was cheaper than 2nd hand harvester rams or chopping down another ram to suit. As to roll over point - the bloke that had my #1 & #2 dozers said that they will slide (with the aid of rocks he said) sideways before they would tip - i guess if they slide & then hit a root or a rock you are in trouble - i am pretty sure i will chicken out way before then - & i'd also like to know where the oil pickup is before going too crazy
I can confirm the sliding. Good sphincter tightening exercise skittering a couple of metres sideways down hill! I reckon if you were going to roll one of these it'd be smoothing banks. That's certainly where I've got very nervous. Something like the track where your dozer's "parked" and you're trying to tidy that bank on the high side. The road stops the slide and the angle get's very scary! I considered going the BareCo path when I fixed my tilt ram but they're not a very heavy duty ram. Good if they were up out of harms way but my tilt ram cops a beating. Have you ever seen one of these machines with the ability to angle hydraulically? Apparently there are some around with two tilt rams but I haven't heard of one that can angle, although I can't see it'd be that hard to engineer.
I have seen this website before and liked some of their tilt ram protection & figured their power angle blade setup would work with the c frame system - (although rams may need protection) - people say you only need one tilt ram but i reckon it would work better with 2 (then more hoses & more guards) http://www.rocklandmfg.com/Dozers/blade_index.htm
Have never owned or worked a 70CI but considered buying one at one time. Overall I have only heard good reports regarding them. One owner told me that he had worked along side a D4D for years with one, moved more dirt and had fewer breakdowns,keep in mind the D4D was also a great machine. Others have told similar stories. I believe a broken head stud can be a problem with them and the bevel gear takes setting correctly. As far as operating I would like the clutch to work the same as a Cat, don't know if they can be converted. As far as I can ascertain these were a great machine and it is unfortunate that something similar is not manufactured to-day. Hope to see more replies to thisthread.
What are you refering to when you mention bevel gear ? thanks garrie.
Crown Wheel & Pinion.
Sorry ,but i dont see the connection with a broken head stud and the crown/wheel & pinion, could you elaberate please and make me a better and smarter man? thanks Garrie.
I'm sure you are smart enough to see there is no connecting. I was just making the point in saying that the bevel gear can be an issue with them, its not rocket science!!!!
I must confess that I haven't enjoyed setting the bevel gear the couple of times I've done it but I just thought that went with the territory. I've never enjoyed setting crown wheel and pinions. There's something sort of permanent about the job. Stuff it up and you're going to be replacing some very expensive metal but there's not really any solid indication that this is right and this is wrong. I've only ever worked on a Fiat dozer. Do they arrange these things better on other machines? I'd have thought that the mechanics of a bevel gear would be the same regardless of make. The drive starts off heading up the machine and it has to turn a corner. Short of using hydraulic motors there has to be some sort of crown wheel and pinion and these have to marry up properly?
You will be flat out trying to find a car mechanic these days or even in days gone by, that is willing to even have a decent go at setting up cw & p - they all think it is a specialist job, like some black art that gets passed down - pretty sure they don't have teachers to teach it in the tech colleges these days anyway (guess that's what happens when for over 20 years our down under countries haven't invested in trade training) - the good old days when people could make something work without the brand new parts and factory tools, if you couldn't fix it you had to make it. It's good to see people like that here - makes me feel better about the world. Necessity is the mother of all invention hey!
Starting my remote steering clutch operation today (prelims anyway) - got the camera charged up - ready to start mutterin'
Giddy 22a - had a look at your posts - love that old time logging thread with all the photos - reckon everyone should have a look at them old photos - see how hard people and machines used to work - probably had to work smarter too in them days too
Alternator conversion Thought this might be of interest to anyone who has had a generator fail. My problem was fairly simple, the amp meter stopped showing any charge with the engine running. Bit of diagnostic work showed the generator to be the culprit. I won't go into details on this as I'm by no means an expert on generators. The principles are straightforward and I'd reckon anyone with electrical knowledge should be able to figure it out. In my instance a multi-meter told the story. It cost me $20 from our local re-winders to get it confirmed that my armature was shorting to ground and the only solution was to re-wind. The problem in my instance was that the generator bushes were completely flogged out and the armature was hitting the sides. The damage can be seen in the image. Initially I considered re-winding and sticking with the original generator. Generators are old technology but I figured this one had lasted over forty years and was a good solid bit of equipment. Initial estimate (part of the $20) put the repair cost between $400 and $600 to completely rewind and replace bushes. I might have proceeded had I not stopped and thought about the generator control box. This also contains windings and was also forty plus years old. Bitter experience with Murphy's law told me that the moment I rewound the generator, the control box would go belly up and cost another $500. Regretfully I decided to ditch the original arrangement and update.:deadhorse For me there was no decision as to what to use for a replacement. I've had a good run out of Bosch alternators over the years so I went straight for a Bosch 24V universal. The original generator installation is quite a neat system. There's a bracket that attaches to the machine and has the twin pulley drive (greaseable) on the front. The generator itself sits on this bracket and is held on by a single broad strap. Drive is through a basic coupling. Because I liked this arrangement I initially looked at getting a bare shaft alternator and simply transplanting the coupling onto the front of the alternator. Both the coupling and an alternator shaft were 17mm. After a bit of head scratching I abandoned this idea as I'd have had to quite radically modify the alternator and/or the bracket. Consequently I went for a BXU2456A alternator that comes with a double B section pulley on it. I obtained mine via the internet and it arrived within a few days. Prices vary but you should get change out of $300 (mid 2012) My installation was fairly basic and brutal. The original bracket had two legs that sat either side of a boss attached to one of the radiator support arms and had a 12mm bolt through them. The alternator had a single mounting leg with a 10mm hole through it. I drilled the hole in the alternator leg out to 12mm, cut the support boss back and welded a threaded lug onto the support arm. I cut the support boss back with a 5" angle grinder without removing it from the machine. I carefully calculated where to cut it, did the deed, then lined the alternator up with a straight edge. Something wrong somewhere. Back to the grinder! I ended up with 30mm of the boss left. I then sat the alternator in place with a 12mm bolt through, carefully lined up the pulleys and measured up the front tab. I can't give measurements as I didn't take any. A bit of WeetBix box and a pair of scissors were the design tools The front tab was duly cut out of a bit of 10mm flat bar (grinder again), drilled and tapped to 12mm. I then offered it up, screwed the bolt in, checked the pulley alignment and tacked in place. Removed the alternator and welded properly. I only welded across the front so that the weld would pull the tab forward, allowing easy alternator installation. It pulls back when the bolt (100mm x 12mm ) is tightened. This got the bottom support sorted. I then attacked the top, adjustable bracket. For some strange reason the stud that this bracket attaches to goes right through to engine oil. I had a lot of trouble with mine and had to take it right out. I put it back in with some hydraulic sealant on the thread. Anyway the bracket modification was fairly simple. I put in the vice and bent a dogleg into it, then welded on a short piece of 1" flat bar. I actually used a bit of stainless but that was only because it was handy. I drilled the 8mm hole for the alternator centrally. I should have offset it as I then had to clearance the bracket where the alternator bulges. See image. Main hassle on this job was the need to change the belts. Sounds easy but the hydraulic pump drives off the front of the crank. I had to disconnect the flange on the front pulley, take the radiator guard off, then back off the pump mounting bolts as far as I could without dropping the pump off. This just allowed room for the belts to slide through. The original belts were 52". Actually one was, the other was longer and unlabelled. Who'd only replace one belt!:Banghead Anyway, one was too tight for the alternator. If they'd been good I might have persisted but they weren't so I replaced with two BX53's. I got busy with the grinder again and did a bit of clearance work where the belts pass over the support arm. They weren't touching but were close enough that I figured that they would, once the belts stretched a bit. That covers the mechanical side of the job. I'll cover the rest in the next post and another five images.
Read you comment properly thats definetly not rocket anything.
Nice Job Nutwood - bit jealous - i gotta plug into power or solar at the end of the day & count how many starts i put my batteries through before needing a charge - i would like to use the genie mount seeing as i have replaced all the bearings/seals in it and new belts etc so would probably look at an extension off the front of the alt if Diameter of alt permits to mate with the dog clutch - solar panel rops would probably work just as well
Alternator conversion 2 So far, so good. I had the alternator mounted up and the belts aligning. Next step was to make it work electrically. I'm not sure what the original arrangement on a 70CI was, but my machine, when I bought it, had a basic ignition key arrangement. This gave trouble so I ditched it in favour of a simple, waterproof, push-button. Push button, starter spins. Simple and effective until you install an alternator. For reliable operation alternators require a quick kick up the D+ to get them going. I'd thrown away my key arrangement and really didn't want to go back there so I added an oil pressure switch. I already had a oil pressure gauge, supplied via a very beat up 1/8" plastic line. My solution was to obtain an oil pressure switch (7psi switch, normally open; remember NO, it's important!) and use it to switch the alternator. Unfortunately the pressure switch was 1/8 NPT, an awkward thread for Australia. I solved this problem by acquiring a piece of 20mm square brass ($4 from local supplier), drilling a hole 3/4 way down the centre, tapping to 1/4 BSP at the end, 1/8 BSP part way and 1/8 NPT at the end of the central hole. This enabled me to replace the beat up 1/8" line with a new piece of 6mm back to the engine. The end of the piece of brass has a 1/4 BSW hole for mounting purposes. It's mounted up behind the dash with a short piece of 1/8 tube connecting to the oil pressure gauge. At the same time as this was happening I decided to do something about my lack of engine hours monitoring. The original block mounted hour meter was defunct and I had a Stewart Warner Hobbs hour meter in my box of useful bits. I also had two surplus holes in the dozer instrument panel. One of these was enlarged to take the Hobbs meter and the other had a washer welded behind to take an alternator light. The oil pressure switch supplies power to the alternator light, and of course, the alternator, as well as powering the Hobbs meter to keep an eye on my operating hours. Ideally, the alternator should have been wired in with new cables. It's a 55A alternator which is a tad more than the 8.5A generator it was replacing. Unfortunately, time ran out and I simply rehashed the existing wiring. Seems to be working fine so far. The basic principle is that when the engine starts and oil pressure builds, the pressure switch turns on and supplies power, via the 2 Watt globe, to the D+ terminal of the alternator. This kicks the alternator in. If I'd had a normal ignition key arrangement I could have used either the "acc" or "ign" terminals to do the same thing. I'll shove a copy of my dozer wiring diagram below. Eat your heart out owners of modern machines!
My dream is solar ROPS. My poor machine is often left to it's own devices out in the bush somewhere at the current end of a track. It'd be nice to think that in the meanwhile the batteries were getting a bit of TLC . Unfortunately the makers of solar panels don't appear to have us on their list of target clients. I cringe every time a 200kg widow maker bounces off the roof. Imagine the cringe if was taking $2k worth of panels with it! PS. Forgot to say that using the original genie mount is by no means impossible. It was my first option. I went the way I did because it was quicker and easier, not because it was the most elegant. If you chopped the original bracket off short and fabricated mounting points, you could mount most alternators up to it. My concern would be getting the alignment right. Once done, it'd be a nice job. If you take that path, shove some images up. I'd be interested to see them.
re the wiring: I did a similar alt wiring job on my backhoe - in fact i seem to have the same pull switch that you have on your dash that acts as the "on" switch that the key would do to light up the alt light. I have a solar panel & 12/24 10a controller that can be used on any on my rigs that are away from a power point. One day i will hook up an alternator though - just less to worry about unless it's parked up for a while - Do you still have the plastic line on your oil psi nutwood???
Here's the link
Plastic line's still there. I'm a bit stuck with it as I haven't been able to track down a replacement connection on to the back of the gauge. If I was desperate I'd sort something out but when I thought about it I couldn't see any real advantage in going to copper. In fact I did the line from my little manifold back to the engine in 6mm nylon. I was going to use 1/4" copper, but the connection at the engine end is metric so I just took the easy option. In a way nylon's a safer method as the line runs past the positive battery terminal and little branches have a nasty habit of pushing things where you don't want them to be. 24V down a little copper oil line could be nasty. You've probably got the identical switch as there's not many options when you start looking at basic marine switches. I considered putting a manual switch in for the alternator but I wanted to add the hour meter and I'm quite capable of forgetting to turn it on. I like the solar panel idea. I did look into it a few years ago but couldn't find a 24V system that I liked. I was also a bit concerned at leaving something expensive and portable out in the bush. Technically it's our property but we still get trespassers.
I know where youe coming from in stuff left in the bush unattended,thieves are like crows, very good eyesight, dont miss a trick and have a network of suchlike *******s that are more than happy to take whats not theirs. Enough of this, my query is that i have seen a small dripv of water from my water pump housing when i stopped the other day, a drip ,drip, approx every 3-4 seconds, thus the reason for having to top up the radiator with approx 4-5 litres after 4-5 hours operation. NOW, do you know if you can remove pump and buy a bearind/seal kit for our 70 C.I.;S or is it a replacement water pump ?,thanks Garrie.
Not a problem I've had with my dozer but I know in the past I've been pleasantly surprised with the availability of water pump bearings for old machinery. Perhaps I've been lucky? Anyway, I'd suggest you ring 1800 062 790 (GW Tractors) or (07) 4164 2000 (South Burnett Tractors) and ask the question. Let us know the outcome. Just out of curiosity, are you getting any pressure in your cooling system?
Sorry to butt in but does anyone have any info on bt7d dozers and what they are like as I'm looking at buying one at the minute also how hard it is ( or simple ) to adjust the turning clutch
Hi Garrie, I have done a full rebuild on my water pump - reasonably big job - it is an old school pump and from memory has a ceramic type seal which is quite fragile and a little difficult to assemble (hence having to buy another ceramic seal from South Burnett) - I also had to do little machining on the front bearing housing / dust seal bit (can't quite think why now - it had been bashed or something). The cost of the parts alone (guesstimate from memory) was something like $100 - $130 but I think a new pump was around the $500 mark (Can confirm numbers later). Plenty of times I thought I should have got the new pump especially when I had to machine the housing, but I had already bought the parts. The diagram of the pump was invaluable when rebuilding it- let me know if you need one
Have just attached the pages from the manual about the cooling system with the pump diagrams - there are two types. Is your machine still steaming out the rocker cover too Garrie?
I've not had any experience with them but if you're buying one, I'd immediately be asking why do you need to adjust the steering clutches? If they're anything like the 70CI, it's easy enough to adjust the clutches, so why would you sell one needing adjustment, unless adjustment has already been tried and failed to cure a problem?
Thanks nutwood I'm going to have a look at it this weekend so I will get to see what it is actually doing but for the price I'm paying I don't mind if iv got to spend some money on it if it does need work. The one thing I have noticed about this model is that it is very hard to find information on
Well, that's another way to look at it. In a way, I'd rather purchase a machine with a known problem, pay an appropriate price and then fix it myself. I purchased my dozer with recently replaced steering clutches and thought I wouldn't have to worry about them for years. Within six months I was pulling the machine apart to replace them. They were new all right but the mechanic who'd done the job had omitted to bend over the locking tab on the pinion shaft. Nut came off, flange started rattling about, oil flooded through into the clutch. Not a pretty sight!
Hi Fergie. I used to own a BT7D in North East Victoria many years ago. It has a later model, smaller, quieter, higher revving engine than the 70CI which I also owned as well. (I wonder if your BT7D is our old machine?) We never had any problems with the motor, final drives or steering clutches in the BT7D but we did in the 70CI. The BT7D as well as having a different motor, has a different final drive configuration. Instead of having the pinion from the steering clutches drive the bull gear directly, there is an intermediate reduction gear/layshaft assembly which is driven by the steering clutch pinion and then drives the bull gear. This spreads the wear and the load on the final drives and they lasted very well for us. I can't remember for sure but I think it may have had an oil filled main clutch too. All in all it was a good machine. The 8 foot semi U blade held a lot of dirt and we had a good set of rippers on the back. I think you can get a lot more info on these particular machines from GW Tractors as mentioned in this thread. AusDave
Interesting about the different final drive arrangement. The steering clutches seem to be a weak spot on the 70CI based machines. I wonder if Fiat were acknowledging this? Presumably having an extra level of reduction would reduce the load on the clutches but I reckon the biggest help would be if the new design did a better job of keeping oil out of the clutches. I'll add some images of what my clutches looked like the last time they were out. The thing to remember when looking at the images is that, firstly there's meant to be teeth on the outside , but also, my machine was not leaking oil in any noticeable amount. I keep the bungs out of the bottom of the clutch housings and it was rare to notice a drip of oil. I think some was dripping from the boost cylinder above, the odd drop found it's way past the seals and over time it all found it's way into the clutches. Once the oil gets on the plates they start to let go. First sign is you pull the right clutch lever (seems the left almost always goes first) and both tracks stop under load, then it gets sluggish when turning right under any condition. Finally all you can do are anti- clockwise circles. At this point you pick a nice place for dozer dismantling as you're not going anywhere, although I did move mine a short distance with a tractor and a chain on one side of the blade.
Where did all the teeth go nut wood? Is there a fiat tooth fairy or did you find them in the bottom? I'm thinking that's what mine will look like
If you look at the top left image, that black blob slightly below centre will be some of them. Many others will still be inside the drum. The oil and ground up bits of fibre plate sort of merge together to make a thick goo. I'm looking forward to the images of your repair. Between us we should be able to put a pretty comprehensive collection of "fixing Fiat clutches" images.
No pressure other than the lower hole spilling out water if i overfill the rad above the strainer basket bottom level.
What do you mean Gaz about the lower hole - do you mean the water pump?
Occurred to me to ask; would it be any help to you if I posted the various images I have of my steering clutches coming out? I was thinking it made more sense to give you a clear field as I didn't really take my images in a sensible order to show how the job went but if it'll be any help to your project..?
For sure nutwood if it's no trouble. And if there are any pertinent pics missing from your procedure I will make sure I get a pic of that for the series. I'm trying to find a truck/trailer hub to use for the base of a homemade slew crane / jib that I am mounting on the back of an old patrol wagon that I have chopped the back off. I figure if I can lift the bits off the dozer then swing em round to put on the back of the patrol to take em off the track and down to the shed, it's gonna make it a little easier. Raining today but
There is a hole approximately the size of 1/4 inch copper looking at you when your in the operators seat, its its approx 3/4 of an inch below the screw down radiator cap level, i can only imagie it was for a expansion pipe when the machine gets to operating temp as this is when it dribbles out for a short time if i overfill the radiator (to overflowing.)
Yeah Garrie - that is the overflow / expansion tube hole - if yours doesn't already, it's supposed to run along the bottom of the top header tank and then half way (or more) down the LHS of the radiator & dumps to nowhere. This pretty much makes it "the level" in the radiator header tank. Quite common for them to rust up & block like mine was.
Question. What are the top and bottom covers made of on the radiator im thinking mine has to come out and do some soldering ?.:notworthy
JB Weld it Gaz
I havent pulled it out yet, is the core steel or brass,copper, what about the top and bottom tank ends ?
Not sure mate - most radiators will be brass core (run a file over it & you will soon know) & the tanks are gonna be cast iron - be carefull removing it - one of mine looks to have been roughly repaired (cast iron welded) a few times where all those plates bolt on the sides - i would say that the bolts might have been rusted in there & someone was a bit heavy handed removing them & parts of the casting have broken away around the bolt holes.
Thaks for the heads-up, ill let you know blow by blow description when i do it and we;ll all have an insight to the radiator drama of the 70ci. (ill take pics and post).
Top and bottom tanks are cast iron and I'm fairly sure the core's brass. I've had mine out and repaired. Pesky branch snuck in past the engine and poked a hole in it. Bit of a pain pulling out as you have to drop the hydraulic pump but I just took it to the local radiator place and they soldered it up. They moaned a bit about how old the core was but it still soldered up fine and has gone for years since. I think I've also soldered up a smaller hole or two myself along the way. Cores are still available for them at not unreasonable prices, considering the size of the radiator.
What is the seal on the core and top and bottom i wasnt aware you could solder to cast iron, steal, stainless steel not a problem but cast ? ill have to check on that one, thanks Garrie.
any help?
Yes thanks,it looks like the core fits into the top ad bottom panels but am wondering are they soldered where they join or some sort of mechanical seal ?
Looks like a gasket there I think Gaz
Thanks.
Gin-Gin Garrie here, the bottom track rollers on my70CI. Are they sealed lubed or is there a grease nipple for them ?
Hydraulic Strainer Filter? Hello Everyone..I have just bought myself a 70CI..I am curious to see how the hydraulic system is filtered? there is no filters in the hydraulic lines, and the hydraulic tank is a sealed tank..surely there is filter somewhere. The dozer has a new hydraulic pump and valve body so I want to make sure the system is filtered properly. Cheers Roycehg
Sorry Garrie, I replied earlier but it seems to have got mislaid! The rollers are meant to be oil filled, SAE 140. That said I have seen a home made adaptor, designed to screw into the filler hole, that was simply a reducing bush with a grease nipple to allow the roller to be filled with grease. I hunted down the correct attachment and the appropriate oil pump. Seemed the simplest in the long term. I'll put some images up but you might have to wait a few days as the dozers up the back.
Welcome to the world of Fiat dozers!! I believe there's a few different arrangements for the hydraulics on these machines. I'm told they were originally imported into Australia as agricultural tractors (import duty free) and had the earthmoving equipment added here. Earth moving machinery was not import duty free of course. The result is that the basic machines conform, but the extras vary a bit. Look at the differences between Jeembawb's machine and mine, with the blade arrangements. I'd suggest your filter, or possibly only a strainer, may well be located at the pump. Hydraulic filters are always on the return side which tends to narrow the options!
Thanks for the reply, im back down in brisvegas at the moment on commercial gas installatios so cant view my beast for a few weeks, but from memory i cant recall seing any connections at all o the sides of of the bottom rollers are the behind that side plate between the top and bottom of tracks ? thanks. Garrie.
From what i can remember there is no filtering system on the hydraulic line shown in my workshop manual for our girls. im not at home at the moment to check but there are many ad much more well iformed people that follow this thread that could put their finger on the right page for you ,just wait someone will come good, guaranteed/ (fortune favours those that wait,(Old 70CI saying).
I'm in a bit of the same position Garrie. In reality my dozer's not a long walk away but it's an awfully muddy walk. I've included an image to show how things were going shortly before I walked away. Haven't seen it for a week but I'll get back there and take some images of the rollers as soon as I can see them again. In the mean while I've included a couple of images of my oil gun and the relevant fitting. It's on the centre of the roller, facing outwards
Thanks for going to all the drama for your return poat firstly. I see that that attachment looks very much like the one i have on my grease gun that i use on the top roller (large button head grease nipple) oon the top roller, vi just need to tae the side protector plates off the tracks now to find the ends for the bottom rollers i assume to access these bottom rollers, gettinng close? thanks Garrie gIN-gIN.
Hi Jeembawb. Was wondering how the clutch repair job was going. Haven't heard much recently, worried you've hit my problem, too much stuff to fix, too little time ?
I see the rollers on my machine have bolt heads in the centre of the roller,do these come out and you put the button head grease nipples in their place nutwood ?
That'll be it Garrie. I still haven't been able to get you an image of my track rollers. They're down there somewhere! I'm on a mission to build myself a souped up pressure cleaner. I've got a Cat pressure pump, an old fashioned 2hp motor that pulls about 14A, a lance and a length of hydraulic hose. If I can get all these components together, the days of going mining to find bits of the dozer will be over. I hired a serious petrol driven unit when I did the clutches and it made me realise how nice it was to have a clean machine. I do a fair bit of work in almost bogged situations; "let the tracks spin and it's all over" sort of ground. At this time of the year the lower half of my machine exists only in my memory!
Hi Garrie ,If your rollers have a bolt type plug in them .They should be "sealed for life" oil filled ones . "sealed for life" Means until the seals start leaking .
Hi ianoz,long time no talky, hope you and yours are well,thought you may have left these pages but obviously not thank-god. My bottom rollers do have what look to be 3/8, or larger end plugs in them, so assuming that they are for life bearings and not having had this machie since new and no knowledge whether oil has leaked out of any of them would you suggest removing these end plugs and see-ing if there any oil or lube in them ? Always thankfull for your opionions, Garrie-Gin-Gin.
HI Garrie , Yes mate undo the plug see if there is any oil in them . Water level with the bung hole ,should be the level .Top up with gear oil . Then keep an eye on the track plates to see if any rollers are leaking down on to them .If they are leaking , I would back the track adjuster off ,Lift the machine to get the rollers clear of the track . And carefully check if there is any play in the rollers .. If there is wear in them ,I would replace the bungs with the Button head grease nipples, and run them till their stuffed .Most of the time rebuilding rollers is dearer than replacing with new rollers .. New ones would be between $300 and $400 each , So it is not cheap either .
Thanks as usual with the info Ian, ill do this when im back up home in the next few weeks,Garrie
Back from Catland I'm back in Fiat land again - Actually Nutwood I have been too busy to scratch myself (those pullers etc will be back to you shortly) - I had a bit of a deadline to get some stuff done & instead of trying to fix my steering clutches up on a bushtrack, I got a bloke to come in with a D6D & do some of the hard yakka & drag my 70 down to some flat accessible land. So now my 70 is getting a birthday - steering clutches (courtesy Nutwood - cheers mate), head gasket & studs (have to gee myself up for that part but I learnt a few lessons last time, like let the penetrant penetrate - just wait for the studs to come loose cause its a whole lot easier than drilling & tapping & making inserts), & lastly a few of the grousers have bits missing so I am going to get a few (not sure maybe 10) 2nd hand grousers to tidy it up with (not sure yet what the go is whether they are just a bolt off job & if the bolts are special to fiat?). Luckily for me the D6D operator got called away to another job pretty much after the 1st day or so & the owner was good enough to let me have a go with it - I clocked up over 60 hours with it in an a/c cab - man they are a good dozer - I am going to try to incorporate the blade/tilt control mechanism into my fiat instead of 2 peices of waterpipe for blade & tilt - I reckon if I had it like that I would not have toasted the steering clutches because I would have had more steering control in the blade while benching into a bank. I'm back from Cat land but I reckon I might still paint the old girl in Cat yellow? Jimbob
AD7 Steering Clutch Job - ready to commence The poor old girl is back on flat land ready to get gutted & stitched back up ready for another days work - Just making a list & checking it twice. 1. Steering Clutches 2. Change ripper ram pos'n. (the ROP upright got bent a bit when the D6 was pushing me into pos'n - was fair crappin' marself sittin right in front of it). 3. A few replacement grousers. 4. Head gasket & studs. 5. Some different tilt control mechanism. 6. Cat yellow paint
Can you identify this dozer I looked at this dozer a short while back when it was for sale as it looked quite similar to my 70ci / AD7's - It is said to be an AT7?? - It seems to have different motor & ripper arrangement - floor controls look similar. I am interested because it is also said to have had CAT steering clutch plates fitted (maybe D4 - and steel ones at that which would seem to make them a wet system??). I was wondering if it is a BTD7?? Interested to see what others think Jimbob
Steering Clutches Day 1 Progress Ok so I have finally started - 1st I had to get the forklift going & drag it up the hill (very steep) & with no brakes & the sloppiest steering in history - it made for an interesting morning. It was a little dangerous but I took a fire extinguisher along for the ride so that safety wasn't completely out the door (I have a lawnmower gas tank cable tied to the rops) . The 4x4 Navara wasn't cutting the mustard & luckily my neighbour came by with a Ford 7000 to tow me up the rest of the way. Anyway here are some pics. The 1st few anyway.
More pics of day 1 It was all going ok (apart from running out of gas a couple of times in the hyster (hence the opportunity for photos)) until I propped the front of the dozer up (using it's own "seen better days" 6" blade lift rams) - actually all was good until i let it down onto the blocks when it walked the ram nut out - luckily enough I had already modified the other side so I know what to do this time. Lucky it didn't do that while I was under placing the blocks. 1st rule of hydraulics - Never trust hydraulics! Anyway, just another thing to add to the list. I was 1/2 way thru removing the ripper when I had to find my good prybar & I was hot & dehydrated when a bloke rung & said he was coming round for a beer - Knockoff time :drinkup
Interesting to hear of the BT7D Fiat crawler - I had never heard of this model. I can't find it listed in any tractor S/N records, and neither can I find it on the MMT Italia website (which has pics or brochures of nearly every European tractor, as well as American and British ones). The last small Fiat I ever knew of, was the AT7C. Both the 70CI and the AT7C were quite good little tractors. One farmer went into competition against me with my D6's and D7's - with firstly, a 70CI - then later an AT7C. He was a real PIA! Those damned Fiats kept going and kept going, and he carried out an enormous amount of earthmoving work with those little tractors. He made it perform like a D6! http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...--apripista/0_Fiat_AT7C_anni60_dozer.JPG.html
Saw one (BTD7) at a clearing sale last Sunday. It was passed in.
22A - A BTD-7 would be a British International crawler, the U.S. version was the TD-7. The Fiat was BT7D.
Interesting to hear about the 70ci / at7 comparison to d6 & 7. When I had a D6D up here recently I was a little surprised at the similarity in size (&corresponding weight) when they were side by side - I reckon there would only be 3 or 4 ton in it - the difference in usable horsepower was a bigger gap. Jimbob
Jimbob - I didn't intend to indicate that the 70CI and AT7 would equal the D6 and D7 in performance. There's no comparison there. What I meant was, that this farmer bloke thought he had a D6, the jobs he took on with it! He ripped rock that would have made my D6's slow up, and he dug huge dams with those little Fiats, that took him weeks and weeks to complete! He really was a tiger - he would put those little Fiats into almost anything. He'd take on jobs that I wouldn't have considered with a tractor that size. Often, I'd see him stopped for a short while, as he blasted some rock the Fiat couldn't rip! Then, he'd be back into it again! I dunno who had the bigger heart - those little Fiats, or that farmer! He was truly a real toiler, and never let anything stop him - and those little Fiats rarely let him down. Have you ever seen an AD14 or BD14 Fiat? They came out about 1967, with a direct drive powershift! There was no torque converter in the driveline, just a clutch and manual transmission operated by a single lever. They were supposed to be Fiats answer to the Cat powershift, as you could shift the Fiat transmission in the same manner as a Cat powershift. I never saw many of these tractors, I don't think they sold any more than a handful here in Australia. Fiat AD14 - http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...er-e--apripista/AA_Fiat_ad14__anni60.jpg.html Fiat BD14 - http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...--apripista_001/0_FA_BD14_an70_dozer.JPG.html I drove an FD20 for a couple of months for some Italian friends back about 1997. It wasn't a bad tractor, it was 227HP and was supposed to be the equivalent of a D7G. It had an Iveco motor, which performed O.K. - but the part costs for it were horrendous! The cost of a water outlet housing (thermostat housing) was $1000! What a joke! It had quite a good fully-enclosed ROPS, A/C cab, which made operating the tractor quite pleasant. It could push better than the D7G, and it was quite reliable. Fiat-Allis FD20 - http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...zer-e--apripista_002/Fiat-Allis_FD20.jpg.html http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...pale-cingolate_004/AA_FA_FD20_anni80.jpg.html http://www.album-mmt.it/foto/v/la-s...i-anni-80/altro_004/0_FA_FD20_anni80.jpg.html
Jeembawb, The dozer in your photo would be an AT7D, the BT7D is the bull blade version. Not sure about the steering clutch setup. We had an AT7C with the dry rear end and composition plates,but metallic ones were obtainable, they may have come from the D. I doubt that D4 clutchs would fit these tractors though. Cheers, Greg
Fair enough OzDozer, I know what you mean. I'm sure that with some of the work I did with the D6D here recently, if I was trying to do the same thing with the fiat it would have broken 10 times to get the job done. I was more surprised in the relative similarity in size. Btw - what old loader is your loader project? Jimbob
Thanks Greg - I figured the bloke that owned it would know what model it was. Interesting that there could be a fair bit of difference between a c & d model variant & also about the bull blade. Jimbob
It was A Fiat BT7D. I typed the D in the wrong place.
Can someone who owns a Fiat 311c, 312c, 351c give me the length of the bottom link arms on the 3 pt linkage. The 351c I just purchased has had the link arms butchered and I want to restore them to original condition. Just end to end length is good enough. Also any tips on splitting the tracks would be appreciated as well.
Wow - I have heard of the 4xx & up models, but I didn't know they made a 3xx as well. What size is that? I know of a 4xx m/c around the traps here I have been trying to get my hands on for little work & spraying & running the wood chipper etc, but a 3xx would probably be ok for cleaning up around the house too - I reckon there may be someone on here that has 4xx m/c's (they might be the same) but you could also try sth burnett tractors or gw tractors to see if they have any in their wrecking yards to check for you - they could have some books too. Jimbob
RipperOff Ok - so i found my prybar & the beer has run out & I have been trying to turn a Nissan Patrol into a tractor - enough play - back to real work now. The ripper is off & will be drug to the shed to make it a little less hillbilly (pins half the size of the holes (some were pipe!) and rams that were just in the wrong place), they might even end up not having to share a spool with the tilt ram via a myriad of taps. Then to chop the top of the uprights for the rops, pull the top off for rebuild or remanufature & then at the end it can sleeve back onto the uprights with a couple of bolts. That should keep me busy for a couple of nights. May even get the cwp / steering packs out by the weekend. Jimbob
The 311c, 312c and 351c are a 4 cylinder 30hp tractor. Information is hard to find but from research I have found out they were made '59 to '61. The 351c was a Montagna or mountain tractor with a wider track base than the 311c & 312c. I can't tell you difference between 311c & 312c though. There was a 355c made after this. It has two cylinders and has more of a square bonnet, similar machine though. It was made in a series with the 405 and 605. If anyone out there has or knows of these machines it would be good to hear from them.
Good tip that the Montagna means mountain tractor - I did a lot of research before I got a dozer & really liked the fiats that had a wide gauge & wide grousers & were good on hills. I was looking mainly at 605 to ad7 / 70ci but I did some research on some 4xx ones that come up for sale & though they could be good for when all the hard work is done. Put up some pics when you can - are you going to restore it or run it or both? The little ones make for a good shed project huh? Welcome - Jimbob
Roof Off Ripper mounts off & roof cut off - next to take the fuel tank & seat out and work these fenders out (hopefully having enough room to slide them sideways (one with hydraulics attached) to be able to get the top off). Jimbob
Will get it back to tip top working condition then put give it a go with spreader, slasher, spraying. 3pt linkage is fixed, injector pump is with doctor, the steering clutches and brakes are next. Hard yards were done with D4D, the Fiat is for general work. Will think about restoration later (ie paint).
Hey Jeembawb, I've probably missed something in one of your earlier posts, but why did you deem it necessary to lift the front of the tractor to work on the rear end? Cheers, Greg
Did all my hard yards work with D6D just recently. The fiats usually have a few features that Cats don't. Does your rig have angle & tilt? Should be a handy tractor. Guy
The rear will get jacked up slightly soon too - but no need until the trans/final drive cover comes off because it makes it unnecessarily higher to work on & to lift stuff off with the forklift. When the trans/ f/d cover comes off the tracks need to be off the ground to be able to rotate the final drive to undo the bolts for it. Gunna do a little work on some of the grousers too while its up. Jimbob
Manual angle and no tilt. The Fiats are popular in the SUnshine Coast hinterland due to the hills.
I've always left the tractor on the ground and used a bottle jack to push up on a grouser to move the tractor. Put some boards/rails under the blade and it will slide along. Bit easier to work on when you have to reach into the bowels of the machine. Cheers, Greg
Day 4 - Seat & Tank Off Ok - starting to see some progress now. The seat (not much of one) & the fuel tank are off & work is progressing on removing the fenders. Thing is, they are non std fenders that have been made from 10mm plate that sort of go the whole length of the rig. I guess someone has spent a bit of time & money on plate steel on this rig in the past & I dare say it is a bit heavier than std too - all the armour is non std & heavy duty.
Correction: the 312c was in the next series. In Chronological order (gleaned from Italian Fiat forums): 1. First of all there was a Fiat 601 model made from 1949 to 1950. 2. This was followed by a 25C gasoline model from 1951 to 1953. The two models are similar and have the fiat 600 22hp, 4 inline cylinders. 3. In 1953 a diesel 25c was produced until about 1959. It is powered by the Fiat 605.000 or 605D.000 and is a 25hp diesel engine with 4 inline cylinders. 4. The 25 series was followed by the 311C / 331C and 351C series. They were produced from 1959 to 1961 in Torino, and were powered by the Fiat 605. The engine capacity was increased to 27hp (diesel). 5. The 59/61 series was followed by the 312c / 332c and 352c series from 1962 to 1966. They were powered by the Fiat of 605,018 or 605D.018 and were 35hp.
Thanks Greg Gonna do a little cleanup work underneath while I'm at it & I can always make a false floor out of pallets - know what you mean about having to climb aboard when it's jacked up Jimbob
Keep up the good work jeembawb, ill be following this with interest especially when you get into the interesting parts (clutches) keep up the photos there brilliant all the best Garrie (Gin-Gin)
Fastener thread types on Fiat AD7 Hey Jimbo since you are doing a bit of restoring on your machine, are the fasteners metric fine thread? I will be doing some rebuild work myself and I have noticed the that the bolts on my machine are not metric coarse or UNC??
Hey jeembawb. have you any more pics coming ?
Does anyone know were to get a gasket kit for the back end of a Fiat 70CI , I'm doing up the streering clutches
Great thread, I don't own a 70CI, however, I did just recently purchase a really nice Fiat Allis 14C dozer, and I just love it! I also have to agree that it seems a LOT of people do think we are :crazy for owning them, but I say "don't knock it, till you've tried it"!!! My machine happens to be quite a "brute", plus it looks great, runs great, and does everything I ask of it, so I'm VERY happy, which is ALL that really matters anyway! I look forward to hopefully meeting up with others who own a 14C, or even owned one in the past, and exchanging information about them, that would be really :scool, and I would sure like to learn as much as I can about my new dozer! I really enjoyed reading this thread, and look forward to following it as well. Cheers! :drinkup, to all Fiat Allis owners, for having the kahuna's to own something a little less "popular"! I'm darn proud to own mine, and I ain't afraid to admit it! :salute JD Dozerman
Hmmmn, I am thinking it would be an idea to change the title and purpose of this thread to be all about fiat dozers if that's even possible? Especially seeing as I have recently bought home a fiat 451c dozer that I have been busy taking photos of while I pull it down to do clutch etc - I am so surprised how similar they are to the 70ci. They are from the same era I guess - even the same bloke in the photos in the manual! Maurice, I reckon Andrew at South Burnett tractors would be able to say if available but I would probably just make them old school style and mix that in with a bit of new school with a tube of silicone :Cowboy
Hi Guys , We are about to fire our 70CI up after doing the head stud change .It's been a while since it went ,Just want to confirm that it is negitive earth system . Have hooked the batteries out that way , and getting the solinoid clicking in but no starter motor turning . Any suggestions ?
Any Secrets in removing the water pump from the motor . This one will not Budge .
By the Way , Worked out the Starting problem . Dash was not bolted down ,so was not earthing properly .
Good on ya Ianoz - thats a big job them headstuds - did you have to drill any out etc - I've done one that i had to drill out three of them and I have another to do when the studs come in from Italy so if you have any tips that may be handy would be appreciated - I made up extended drill bits & drill bit holders & tap extensions but she was still a big job. On the electrics for the starter motor: the solenoid thing on the starter motor is just the plunger to engage the gear as well as being a switch to engage the big alloy "relay" under the dash where all the power to turn the stater is switched. Make sure it has a good earth - important - I got a good deal on one of my dozers because of a bad earth on this (poor bloke had spent heaps replacing bits). One of the big cables goes to the starter and the other to the battery of course (One of mine runs thru a battery isolator on this side but the other one i got has the Isolator on the negative side which may be smarter I think now - & oh yeah they are negative earth). I found some pics on my phone where I did a half proper job of wiring my first one - no key starter - just a push button & an isolator - I like it simple: If you have any questions about which wire goes where (it's not totally apparent from the photos) I can scratch around in my memory box or have a look tonight. One bit the photos don't show is a 40 amp auto reset circuit breaker.
Mate , I think we have a couple of spare new studs .Can check with my son to confirm .Know there is at least one .
Glad you found the issue Ianoz - Not sure about water pump removal - was a while ago - I am thinking either a hidden bolt maybe or a decent clout. From memory it is just a ring of around 6 or 8 bolts, but I do think it "locates" pretty tightly into the block. Do you have a new one or are you going to rebuild? I guess that depends on what you find. Going by your PM that just popped up with bubbles with water pump belt attached it could be impeller cavitation issue I guess - head gasket bubbles should find their way to the top without the water pump. Jimbob
We have a rebuild kit for the water pump that came with the machine .
Be careful with that ceramic or carbon "seal" when fitting it - & there should be a certain amount of preload on it so when you turn the impeller / pulley there should be a resistance maybe not quite as much as a viscous fan on a toyota. You might know more about the old school water pumps than me though - My Dad did truckloads of them in his day but so I borrowed some of his remeberences & it all turned out good. There is something to be said for using soluble oil in these cooling systems - it was good for the water pump seals & would be good for the head stud corrosion too. Jimbob Also there was two different models of waterpump - one was a modified one from a certain serial number on.
OK , Thanks Mate . First things first , Got to get it off the motor .My young bloke is starting to eye off the sledge hammer:cussing
Pretty sure the clout will work - maybe a mild steel drift in between will enable the impact to go only on the flange of the water pump without damaging other hard to get bits. Don't hit the front but - mine was a bit bashed up in that area and had to remake a sleeve for the bearing & seal.
Operation was a sucess , but the patient died . Broke the housing where it fits into the block .Pump came out leaving the impellor behind . Bugger .
Time for a quiet reflective beer I think Ian. Bugger. There's always a plan B. Did you get everything out of the block ok & see the reason for so much "sticktion"?
Rust . Normal Cockies tractor . Talked with South Burrnett . And it appears that it is the early pump .They have a late model pump in stock , but not an early one . Bugger
Not 100% sure about being able to fit a late one in place of an old one (Andrew would know I would say), but looking at the page out of the manual (have a look at post 38 on page 3 of this thread if you don't have a manual) - it seems to show the main difference being in the front seal/bearing area with a different pulley and a note in the disassembly section that you have to remove the radiator for the old style ones & I assume this is because the nose of the waterpump may stick out more. Worth checking it out if you haven't already??
Asked Andrew , He said they don't interchange .
Bugger OK - so have you heard of JB Weld? :Cowboy
Mainly the pulleys are different aparently .
New one should be there next friday .
Ian, Garrie from Gin-Gin here, met you up the main street one day whe you had a dozer on the back, im thinking of selling my 70ci and if you or anyone else is interested give me a bell.
Hi Garrie ,When we have this one up and running , the plan is to sell it . The club will be runing a tractor rally towards the end of the year at Bullyard .If it suits and your home that weekend we may be able to catch up agaion . When the rally gets closer i will see what your up to .
Another thing that intrigues me is if you are in forward 1st gear,stop and change to 2,or any other gear the doder is automatically going in reverse when you egage the clutch lever, any reason you know of for this ?
Did you get the little Ferggie 3PL sorted out ?
That one sounds Interesting Garrie .Sounds like the forward /reverse lever is able to move too freely Can you see the lever move into reverse ?
Hi Ia yes , Iwent for a new hydraulic pump for the TE20 and is workig well now I got a DVD on changing it over and was a real god-send, Re the reverse lever movement, I dont actually know about that, but if you change gear again it goes back to forward,stop and change again back to reverse, mabye ive got the only Italian semi auto in Australia, YeEEEEE..HAAAA, Im rich.
Next time you have it running ,Maybe stick your foot on the lever to make sure it stays put . If it still does it . I am sure it will have quite a few here scratching their heads .
Will do let you know when i go back up home again.
New Arrival - Fiat 451c Ok, so first - do the deal & get it home - done. So what's next? Pull it completely to bits & clean it - right?? :Cowboy
451c Dismantling Ok - so you pull everything apart & spread it round right? Then you douse it with caustic degreaser & hope you can get the waterblaster going before all the alloy disappears under all the bubbles. Then you make a shopping list: Hydraulics (hoses, pipes, fittings, control bank), Main clutch gear (plates, bearings etc), & a couple of gaskets & hoses will get the ball rolling.
Starter Motor Part 1 Ok so the starter motor always needs doing 1st - standing joke that everything I bring home needs a starter motor & a head gasket (if I bought home a spa pool it would need a starter motor & a head gasket). So strip it down - yep the usual fiat corrosion due to the brush pack access ring leaking. No parts available but whole starter motors available for around $700 - Ok, let's try for a resurrection. Actually doesn't look to bad but for the corrosion.
You wont know whats what till you clean down that armature then youll know how much trouble youre in and how many beers youll be having that night, be way to stufff up the armiture is with constat starting with bad worn brushes or worse still one or two that are stuck back up in their housing and dont come down to wear with to the contacting ones, good luck.
Yeah Garrie - thats why I didn't put any power near it till I checked it. Have it all back together now - it's hanging in my shed with a fresh coat of black engine enamel - looks better than new - gave it a fair bit of bench testing before I painted it though. I don't have any photos of the in between of sand & soda blasting it inside & out, then rebuilding the brush pack with some scroll springs from a ford 7000 CAV starter (thanks to my friendly neighbour), a bit of insultion patch ups, a whole bunch of patience (& a few beers) with the armature (rust tends to swell some things), so I reckon the resurrection is sucessfull so far - won't really know until I give it a few starts and bleed the fuel system - I feel I should be careful on the old girl though - I won't drive it home on the starter motor or anything like that :Cowboy I will get a photo of the finished product in place with my special starter motor weather sheild. Jimbob
I wont drive it home on the starter, youre a good lad.
I think you have a old boy there,look at that thing out the front of the radiator
Hi Ian, back working in gin-gin- for the last 3 weeks replacing the gas line under the burnett river crossing failure after the floods , might get time to check your theory re the auto change, have to get back to brisvegas Sat/Morning, will let you know.
No worries Garrie.Must be nice to get a job close to home for a change .
Was fantastic actually, back in brisvegas working tonight 6 to whenever at Toombull shopping centre tye - in for new 100 mm line. Anyway tried the beast yesterday at home and whenever i pull back on the clutch engager arm and stop and move the forward reverse selector arm the machine goes into the oppesite direction than before you changed gear pattern, nothing elsemoving only the gear selector and then when clutch is engaged youre going in the opposite direction than when you stopped, loopy? who knows. Garrie.
Hows the reno going on the dozer ?
Wow, this thread has moved on since last I visited. I must have missed visiting after a notification and have received no more notifications. Days are getting shorter now. More time for contributing to forums! In answer to Jeembawbs question elsewhere. I rebuilt my fuel pump a few months back and it's a different dozer. I didn't re-build it myself, I got it done. I also had the injectors overhauled and new nozzles fitted. The old injectors had a spray pattern somewhat like a damaged garden hose nozzle. That was the ones that sprayed; one just dribbled! Having seen just how bad things were, I'm amazed it worked at all! Cost me a lot more than I intended, or wanted to spend. Not much change out of $2k but it had reached the stage where something had to be done. I discussed it with the repairer first and it was a case of "well, if this is gone it might need replacing and if this is gone..." Worst case scenario stuff. Ended up everything was worst case, and a couple of other things beside. The difference is amazing. Previously, I couldn't spin both tracks in first gear. Now it'll spin both tracks in second gear and probably third if I tried! It'll do more work in second than it could in first previously. I've never bitten the bullet and completely overhauled an injection system before. Given this thread is about older machines, I'd be interested in hearing if others have done this to such great effect. I was quite happy with the power of my dozer before. I knew it was down a bit but I didn't realise how much. If you fronted up to a full blade of dirt, the engine would bog down and it'd either push it or stall, if I wasn't quick with the clutch. Now it just pushes it or spins the tracks, engine note barely alters. Only downside is that I'm now paranoid about fuel quality!!
Hi, this is my first posing on the forum. My names Josh and ive been reading the forum for a while now and decided to finally join. Im looking for a fiat 50/60/70 ci to restore or refurbish. I live in Morayfield but ive got land just north of Bundaberg. Garrie are you still looking to sell yours? any info or leads would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance every one. Josh.
Hi Josh welcome to the Forum. Yes im still thiking of selling the old girl. (the Dozer i mean).
Sounds like you have a fascinating little problem there Garrie. I read your earlier description and I'm a bit confused. In the above post you say "...move the forward reverse selector arm the machine goes into the opposite direction...". That sounds like the response you expect when you move the reverse selector but your earlier post talks about moving the gear select reversing the direction which is definitely not right! Just to clarify; If you are going forwards, disengage the clutch ( I push forward on mine to do this?), stop, leave the forward/reverse selector alone, and change from 1st to 2nd, the machine will now go backwards? If it does, does it go backwards at about the same speed as it was going forwards before or lot's faster?
Hi Josh . Welcome to the Forum . Don't want to whiteant Garrie ,but I have a Fiat 70CI that am looking to sell . It is waiting on a new waterpump ,so not running at present .Hopefully W/pump is not to far away from getting here .I am up near Gladstone ,so you could look at Garries on the way to Bundy and ours ,when it suited you . PM me if interested .
Thanks Garrie its been great reading all the posts. What's the best way to speak to you about the "old girl". Josh.
Thanks Ianoz I'm not sure how to pm. Very new to forums mate. Josh
Josh;0409317494
Nutwood, thats exactly what she does same speed,no change and yes my 70ci dessengages when you push the engagement lever backwards,pushing the lever forward engages.
Sounds to me that you have a tractor gearbox and you're engaging reverse. The tractors didn't have a reverser box and had a reverse gear in the gearbox. Mine is lacking the necessary shaft and gear in the box to reverse direction but you can see where they should be. What is your shift pattern on the gear box? Regarding the clutch; that's another difference. When I push my clutch lever forward, in the direction of travel, it first disengages the clutch and then it activates a little brake in the clutch housing that stops the front shaft of the gearbox (reverser actually) spinning, thus allowing a smooth shift. I replaced that little brake recently which was a fun exercise that I intend to write up for this forum. I think I'd find my machine quite hard to drive if the clutch action was reversed as I have to lean forward to reach the full travel forward, whereas I sit back in the seat and work the master clutch and the hydraulics quite comfortably. Again it sounds like a tractor modification with a different pivot arrangement.
Josh, Click on my name and click personel message .
Nutwood. I think you may well be onto somethingthere (as Usual) Im heading back up home on weeked and will check your theory. I have to change the blade spindles on the ride on cutter deck that the old girl likes to use as HER dozer,(Might have to re-think selling the other old girl after all).Ill let you know what the g-box pattern on the stick is, as per the clutch engagement mine engages slowly as you apply forward pressure until it lockks on havent had a problem with that.
I suppose it's just what you get used to. Actually I can see advantages, in that I sometimes have problems with the scenery trying to climb aboard and help me drive. If the lever action was reversed this'd disengage the clutch rather than jam it engaged....
Nutwood, I think it may be you that has the modified clutch. I haven't operated a 70ci but I have driven several AT7s ,which are essentially the same tractor, and they have all had the same clutch setup as Garrie's. Cheers, Greg
I think you may be right Greg. I've been investigating and indeed my clutch should work the other way. Apparently they are sometimes modified so as to be the same as a Cat. This is the only Fiat I've driven so I've never questioned it. Funny thing is that the bloke I bought it from, who was a long term Fiat man, never mentioned it. He probably did it as a standard modification on all his machines. There you go, learn something every day. Thanks!!
Hi Ian, how the hell ar ya ? I didnt know much about White -Ants till i heard two Rosellas eating at my bird feeder talking about a good nest of them they spotted in a hole in an old dozer up north of Bundy that was full of them, im sure they said something about you woudnt find that sort of thing aroud Gin-Gin.keep well brother,Garrie.
Spot the problem Not been much activity on this thread recently so I thought I'd drop in a little puzzle. I was clearing a bit of scrub recently and something just didn't seem right. I got out, scratched my head, got back in. Still not right. I parked the machine and had a good look around until I spotted the problem. Here's an image showing the problem. If you spot it, you'll know it, so no need to post spoilers, just say you've got it. Took me a couple of minutes but when I realised, I felt really silly. The reduced size makes it pretty tricky to spot so if no-one spots it, I'll post a more specific shot, but for the moment it's a challenge!
Hmmm, no response to my little puzzle. When I saw the reduced image I though it was too hard but then I thought I'd give it a go anyway. I've been surprised before at what people can spot. Here's a slightly better image. I have a third if this one gets no response. Even if no-one's interested in my little problem, I'm satisfying an earlier request for some images of how my tree pusher connects!
Only thing i can see ,is there appears to be nothing to stop the tree pusher lifting off the top of the blade .
Lower side arm on the blade looks a little weird?
Yair . . . nutwood . What's the go with the tilt ram plumbing? . . . looks to be heading off in the wrong direction. Cheers.
That must be what Iam looking at, protection for the hoses.
Bent ram?
Hmmm - I'm thinking tilt plumbing too but the bottom arm to the blade looks ok but it looks like a tight bend for those hoses? Nice fence in the background but - what are you keeping in or out? Must post some update pics too Jimbob
451c Update It rained for a while (that's my excuse anyway) - so here's a couple of update pics. So the last was to test out the resurrected starter on the engine to see if it and the engine actually work. And the venturi / throttle body was a bit sticky so went the whole hog on that Well the starter works sweet but it doesn't quite want to fire up - I can say these engines don't like any amount of ether in a can (aerostart etc) - the noises it made was most likely just the dislike for ether but I thought - what the hell - pull off the head just in case (it's not like I have enough projects already) The bottom end looks fine - What the hell - why don't I build an injection pop tester & rebuild & adjust the injectors myself - it can't be that hard Well the 2nd one I made worked out sweet (you have to pick the right type of bottle jack) & now all the injectors have new nozzles & are lapped up perfect & all shimmed to 1700psi - took a while but worth it - didn't get any pics of the rebuild process (the hangover made me not care about photos). And the head got the full works too (well guides & one seat & surfaced on all sides because I tried soaking it in citric acid which it didn't like) - so as can be seen from the next pic, I have sucessfully gotten a bit carried away
Sorry Roycehg - somehow I missed your question posted. The answer is that Fiats are European metric in bolt head size as compared to Japanese metric. i.e. a 13mm nut on a fiat would be a 12mm nut on a jap truck for the same bolt etc, but you will find the thread pitch will most often be the same. Say for the 8 & 10mm bolts the most common thread pitch on the fiats is 1.25mm, (with some 1.5mm pitch as well) - the 1.25mm pitch is not considered "metric fine" in these sizes as that title is for the 1mm thread pitch. You will find it a little hard to get some of these bolt sizes unless it is a good bolt shop that carry "automotive" thread bolts. Also on head sizes, some of the fiat bolts ( say M10 bolts) have a 14mm head ( as do jap bolts) but all you can get at a normal bolt shop is stuff with 17mm head which doesn't always fit in the same spot. This is why farmers with fiat tractors usually have a coffee tin (or milo ) full of fiat bolts, also worth doing same with jap bolts. Pretty much nothing imperial on these unless the non factory blade & ripper gear etc has.
Hoses look a little short for the length of those cylinders :beatsme
Well I reckon the guesses are all in so here's an better image. Queenslander's in the right area. I posted it as a puzzle because it took me a while to notice and I didn't have the tricky lighting. What fooled me was everything went back into the right place when I backed out on to clear ground and parked. I probably should have used this image first up after I uploaded the first image and saw how hard it was but I thought I'd give it a go anyway and see if any eagle eyed person would spot it.
It loops about as seen, travels along the top of the lower arm, ducks across the rear of the blade and re-appears as those long hose looping down from the side of the body to just next to the tree pusher. Seems to survive OK although there's been some anxious moments when a tree finds it's way over the blade and hooks in that long loop. Tree pusher can't lift up because of the two triangles of plate in front of the blade. In fact it wouldn't come off at all when I first tried. It must have been built on the machine. I had to gas axe some clearance but now you can pull the pins and tilt it forward and off.
My experience has been that every thread on a Fiat dozer has a 1.5mm pitch, regardless of diameter. This applies also to the big nuts on the ends of shafts. Buy a 1.5mm thread file and you can't go wrong!
I love your tester. Great idea. What was the secret in choosing the bottle jack? I chickened out on tackling my injection system and handed the task to the specialists but the situation may occur again sometime when I have more time!
Time... yeah... who sells that again? The secret is in the top nut and the cylinder it threads onto, specifically what type of bypass passage it has. The first one (pictured previously) I got cheap at a Repco sale and it had a 1/2 round milled slot along the thread of the nut for the bypass. The issue is that you have to block this passage completely at up to 3000psi & the only way to do that is with JB Weld (or the permatex equivalent which is actually rated to 3000psi) & the slot had to be filled with JB Weld then tightened (which disturbs the JB Weld). It didn't quite work but it was worth a crack. The Jack to get is one that has the tinyest pinhole in the thread of the cylinder (which can easily be JB Welded when clean) and a hole in the nut which is easily welded - It was potluck, but I got a Kinchrome jack on sale at Bunnings and was lucky it was the right type. I was already at parts cost overload, being that I had already spent around $150 on jack & fittings/gauge etc & the cheapest "bought" version I could find online was about that (plus frieght from India) but most are nomally $250 - 450. I just did it to remove the mystery, the black art of diesel injection systems. Worked out pretty easy really (on these old simple injector at least) - once I knew what I was doing i could redo an injector per hour. I have another 30 injectors to do around the farm now - just have to find the time now... Jimbob
On the back end maybe Nutwood, to bolt down various housings etc - but most of the stuff I have worked on with my Fiats has been around the engine area & I can say the M8 & M10 stuff that threads into the block is most often 1.25mm. I have a fairly large stock of 1.25mm pitch bolts & nuts in these sizes & I have a huge tap & die set that has every size but M8 & 10 x 1.25 & had to get separate taps to do some jobs. Must get myself a thread file one day. Jimbob
Must work out how to do this multi quoting :idontgetit Thats a better picture Nutwood - can see the missing part now. Did you find it?
OK, I knew when I wrote that I'd regret it!! I should have qualified it 12mm and up. Theory gets a bit shaky under that. I'm not sure about 10mm, it seems to be the world problem thread with at least four different pitches available but you're quite right 8mm is 1.25 and I've no idea what the 6mm pitch is; probably 1.00.
It is a better picture and congratulations are in order. I didn't spot it the first time. I was clearing a fence line and the tilt didn't seem to be working right. It responded as expected but the blade never seemed to be the right place. I backed out, walked around, scratched my head, examined hoses and gave up. I went back to work and all seemed well until I tried to push a tree over. All of a sudden the blade was in a very strange place. I actually stalled the engine with the front of the machine halfway up a tree and the blade trying to climb over the bonnet. In hindsight the stall was operator error (read panic!) but at the time I thought I'd broken something major! I started up, backed off to clear ground, and this time spotted the problem. It was back in place, just like in the image! I looked over to where I'd been working and nearly didn't bother looking further. I'd been clearing dense vegetation and the ground level was 0.5m below the top of the debris. I figured out where I'd first noticed something unusual and clambered over. Surprise, surprise, nothing but crushed green and brown stuff. I poked about a bit and was just extracting myself when I saw a bent 16mm bolt (1.5mm pitch!). Amazingly, buried just near it was the bit I needed. I'd been trying to work out the better option, hire a metal detector or simply build a new part, but yes; I found it!! The next question, which is more philosophical: Is it a lucky, or unlucky event, when a part comes adrift but no harm is done and, against all odds, you find the missing part?
I like it, especially the bit about the black art. You are so right. My life seems to be tied to diesel engines. I keep trying to escape but I still end up tinkering around with dirty smelly lumps of iron that'll turn a nice clean sump of oil black in a matter of minutes. However, in all those years, I've never tackled the injection system, apart from superficial tweaks. Since I got my pump re-built and the injectors fixed, my dozer's like a new machine. It'll push more in second than it used to in first and yet I wouldn't have dreamed of tackling the injection system if it hadn't got so bad I couldn't avoid the task. I also had a lot of work done on the pump so it's hard to say how much tackling the injectors alone would have helped but having seen the spray (dribble!) pattern when they were tested, I suspect that most of the power increase came from the injectors and the general performance (starting, smoothness etc) came from the pump. It'd be a good thing if us operators of older machines could learn to service our injectors on a regular basis. Easy if you're a contractor with a new machine, you just pay someone, but how do you justify it for a farm dozer?
You're right about M10 being a problem thread with all it's incarnations - Interestingly M6 is only available in 1mm pitch. Jimbob (a cowboy full of useless details) :Cowboy
Fiat 451c 411c 411r Alternator Conversion Just in case someone else has to do this I have some pics of the brackets & adjuster that I made to fit a universal mount Bosch alternator & kept it all nice & snug up against the engine so as not to catch any logs that might be coming past. Also the adjuster is made to be super easy to adjust and not come loose in operation like all the sloted brackets seem to. Tucked in nice & snug
C'mon, you must have metric fine up there; M6 x 0.75
Tarpon140 - are you still out there? did you make some good progress yet on your little dozer? Jimbob
Fiat 451c first startup Yeehhaaaawww http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLUPjM_hcY&feature=plcp Jimbob :Cowboy
Fiat 451c pre start pics I finally got round to putting the resurrected starter back in Then I fitted a special starter motor cover that should stop it getting water in again I reckon there could be a bit of crud in the IP that I don't want to go into my newly done injectors - so it needs a bit of a flush That came out clean enough & all 4 are pumping, so time to make a new injector line for number 3, hookup the glows & see if she goes!!! Yeehaarr!!! Now where was that list of all the other stuff that needs doing on her? Jimbob :Cowboy
Nuts & Bolts Hey Nutwood - we don't have metric fine M6 x 0.75 up here in the boonies (well not that I've seen & the bolt mob told me there was only one M6 thread), but I was on a chinese ebay site for taps & dies the other day & whatteryerno!! They have M6 x 0.75 too - well I'll be a monkeys uncle! I figured you was windin' up . One of my pet hates is people that prattle on about stuff as if it's 100% dead set when they is dead set wrong. There are a few teachers around that remembers me - I used to pull them up if they were trying to put over wrong info because the other 30 in the class could go off into the world with wrong info prattling on as if it were gospel and that's a recipe for mass ignorance (something like that anyway). Nothing worse than a Know it all that doesn't Know! Somehow a Know it all that does Know, is still able to get by in life - I think that's called "justifiable arrogance", but that's a whole nutha subject now. M6 x 0.75 - You called it :duh Jimbob :Cowboy Cowboys can be wrong too!
Thanks for the reply Jeembawb
After a lot of dramas ,we have our 70CI Up and running . Noticed it is difficult to get into gear , like the Clutch brake is not working ..Once it is in gear forward reverse seems to shift OK ,Until it is left out of gear with the engine running for a while . Seems to struggle to lift the blade when pushing .Rippers will lift out OK . The pressure hose from the pump looks to small ,when you look at the size of the other hoses . Any Advice welcome .
I'd reckon you're right about the clutch brake. I had the same issue. When you shift "on the go" it'll shift OK but not when you first start or if you let it sit. Mine was soaked with oil and useless. If that is the problem, it's possible to replace the linings without too much trouble or expense. I managed to do mine without removing the clutch. I did the front seal on the forward/reverse box at the same time. If I get a chance I'll see if I've any images of the process and post them. I recall a bit of mucking about modifying tools to work in a restricted space.
Thanks Mate , What about Blade lift ,do you have problems there ?
Not really. I do have something strange going on where sometimes my blade will hold position fine and other times keep falling down. No big deal, except it can make for surprises when I'm walking to another location and am suddenly woken up by stopping suddenly as the blade digs in! I've always figured it for one of those hydraulic things that I could probably fix by getting oily for a day. Your slow lift could be a number of things. I wouldn't have undersized hoses at the top of my list. You say it's a problem as you are pushing? That implies lack of grunt. Weak pump, piston seal bypassing, dodgy pressure relief, worn spool? Hard to say. The ripper being OK might be a clue, might not. A ripper doesn't generally need the force that a blade does, so might not show up the problem? No real suggestions except basic fault finding. If you've got a gauge and fittings to check pressures at different locations it'd be a help.
Ianoz: my 70 had the same problem once but turned out I had the by-pass valve that controls either feed to rear rippers, or to the blade halw way between both until I noticed that the blade was slow as to lift, maybe check that ?
Well , The 70ci went for a drive on the tilt tray ,this came back in its place
Well. that's one way to fix a hydraulic problem......
Hello from Finland! Today I am going to see this machine and if it works I will buy it. I'm not sure is this ad5 or ad7? Man who is selling this is old and its hard to talk him in phone because he cant hear well. If I heard right he said that this from year 1955? It´s not easy to find information of these machines from internet.. I think cab in this machine is manufactured in Finland because I haven´t seen cab like this in any youtubevideos..
I don't know what an AD5 looks like but this machine looks very similar to my AD7. Bit of luxury having a cab, but I reckon it might be a bit chillier in Finland! Hope it works out for you. She looks a bit sad but it really depends on what's behind the saggy tracks and the rust
Geez Ian - and it even parked on top of the 70's grouser marks. What kind of voodoo deal did you do to end up with that - it looks a little like my old chamberlain backhoe but with a different donk. Jimbob :Cowboy
Well Jimbob, We are happy with what we got .It is a Chamberlain Super 90 ,Powered by a 3 Cylinder GM .
Any idea what year roughly? I had no end of trouble trying to find info on my old chamberlain. It looks to be of the same vintage with all the wheels identical - the amount of times I used that front hub as a step to get to fixing the old perkins! The closest I got to working out what the backhoe was based on was a fair guessimate that it was a Champion from late 50's to early 60's before they got bought out by John Deere. They made a solid tractor - that's a fairly tidy bit of australian history right there! Jimbob :Cowboy
gidday matti x - that sure looks like an ad7 to me - the ad7 were based on the 70ci crawler and i'm pretty sure that the ad5 were based on the 50ci (both the 50ci & 60 ci were a little older than the 70ci (or the 70ci were produced longer?)) The 50ci & ad5 have the aircleaner on the opposite side & the 60ci has the aircleaner pipe take a 90 degree bend into the engine bay wereas the 70ci/ad7 has it go in on a 45 degree. Pretty sure you are looking at an ad7. At least with a cab over the top there is less chance of all the transmission cavities having water leaked into them. Jimbob :Cowboy
The Super90s were built between 1963 and 1966 . If you post up or email me a couple of photos of your Backhoe , I have friends that know a fair bit about chamberlains that could ID it for you . Manual or T/C tranny ?
Definitely not an AD5 MattiX, I had a FL5 trackloader , FL/FD 5 were powershift transmission.
Velvet drive by Borg Warner with 4-236 Perkins. Here are a couple of average photos of it before I drove it onto a low loader for a new life somewhere else - I sold it to pay for some D6 dry hire about a year ago - the poor old thing came to me not going, and after a lot of hard work and breakdowns early on, it became relatively reliable at the end - still needed work but for the last 10 times I used it, it actually worked without blowing a hose or pipe! No biggie as I don't have it anymore - but am still interested to know what it is.
236 Industrial ,the boys tell me is the model .
Yair . . . Ianoz . Nice tidy Super Ninety. I recall Chamberlain doing demonstrations with a prototype around Kingaroy in probably 1961. At one field day they had hooked up to a couple of fourteen disk Sundercuts ploughing at about 6-7MPH. The general consensus seemed that it was pretty impressive but I well remember one old bloke. . . accepted as probably the best farmer in the district . . . getting up on the back of the Knocker they were using as a dais and telling everyone all this big horsepower was well and good but working at that speed would damage the soil and the way to use the grunt was to go wide and slow. I have spent the last fifty odd years watching changes in farming practices I have seen nothing to suggest he was wrong. Cheers.
Cheers Ian
There's been a few queries on different threads about tree pushers. Finally I remembered to take a image of a tree pusher in action. This would be at the top end of what my dozer can manage, at least under these conditions.
Yair . . . Good one Nutwood . It always amuses me to see how fixated out American friends are on track loaders for tipping out trees. Five hundred bucks worth of steel and a long weekend to weld up a pusher and a dozer is a far more effective machine for clearing . . . your pusher looks a tidy little unit and very conservative in length. I like the way that style of pusher can help to keep the brush in place and stop it coming back over the blade as you rattle it to the piles. Cheers.
Good work Nutwood- in the first pic it does look like a contest that could go either way. All depends on the tree and determination of the bloke pulling the levers. There are some trees up here called mountain ash that are very difficult to pluck roots and all - can be very easy to snap at the bottom leaving a very splintery stump if you use horsepower instead of digging smarts :Cowboy I do like that style of tree pusher. Seen on the likes of cat D6D, they don't get in the way of blade tilt like the big ones that are mounted on the C frame on mine. Jimbob :Cowboy
What are you gunna do with the tree Nutwood? Is it worth milling or slabbing? Just realised how big it is when I saw the chainsaw on it. Can be hard work chopping the stumps off hey - would be a perfect job for a forklift to raise that end a little so the stump hopefully rolls away when you cut it Jimbob :Cowboy
Snapping at the bottom? Isn't that a pain. Push them over with some leverage, and the weight of the canopy to help, and out comes the stump. If they snap off, there goes half a day digging the stump out. Fortunately it very seldom happens to me on the larger trees, as I haven't the horsepower to snap them. Occasionally happens on the smaller stuff and it's surprising how hard it can be to get a 12" stump out when there's only a splintery mess to work with. Tree's been converted to firewood. Didn't take long to push it over but it was a full days work cleaning up the mess. That's why I posted the images yesterday. Too knackered to go out and do anything after spending Saturday on the saw and splitter! I was too woosy to cut that stump right off. Way too many rocks. I wedged it then cut to within a whisker of the bottom, did the same about 4m up the trunk and then bowled out the log with the dozer. Hardest bit was getting rid of the stump. I couldn't get behind it so had to snig it. Even going down hill the poor old dozer was rearing up trying to pull it. I just got it clear of the area and it can sit there till the weather gets rid of some of the dirt.
Looks like you have a heap of decent sized gibbers on that block of yours Nutwood.
Hi Garrie ,The Gin Gin Rally is on this weekend ,At the Sportsgrounds on Saturday .Hope to see you there if your about .
Hi Ian,will miss it again, just came back down to Brisvegas after 2 weeks home, wont be back for another 2 weeks, have fun. Sure is dry at home at the moment,bottom dam is just about sucked dry, will have to transfer from the big one when I get back. Garrie.
WE can't win ,hey Garrie . Well ,always next time .
Yair . . . ianoz With a bit of luck we might get down there, if so I'll look you up. Cheers.
Mate , Will be good to meet up .
Hi Ian, those are great shots of the tractor pull last weekend, would have been good to be there,i would have brought the old girl too (the fiat 70 Ci) that is,well next time maybe,again thanks for posting the photos.
Hi Jimbob Been off the grid for a while so sorry for the slow reply. Ended up facing up to a full motor rebuild of the 351c. Currently trying to track down big end and main bearing torque settings. I have the 351c manual but the motor is from the earlier model (25c). Now waiting for manual for the 25c to turn up in the post. Its taken a while but hopefully we will have motor running before xmas. Will post photos as the work progresses. Once this is done then two brakes, one steering clutch and track over haul to go. Cheers Cameron C.
Good on ya for sticking with it Cameron - there always seems to be more work to do huh. It was a happy day when I got my 451c motor running. I found it hard enough getting parts & info for the 451, let alone earlier (not by much though) gear. My recent discovery is that the back end & brakes etc share a lot of parts that go right thru to the 605c so I got a 605 parts manual for cross referencing off eBay. I found it easier looking for parts for newer more common gear than older rocking horse droppings - & sometimes they are the same part. Good luck with it champ Jimbob
Hey Jimbawb ,Nutwood, could you check my post under dozers yesterday and comment please.thanks Garrie
Have replied to your query on oil leak, possibly from rear of engine. For future reference, the link is
Hi Is there a FAQ or thread on how to embed photos. The above icon does not seem to do the job.
Fiat 351c Just about finished project. Thought I would share some photos from the journey. Full engine recondition, brakes, track roller, injectors, injector pump and general oils and fluids etc.
More photos
Good effort Tarpon. Will be interested to hear how she goes. Have you got any "dirty" photos? Always keen to see it all pulled apart and it's a great help for others confronted with a mass of black greasy bits of metal!
Fiat 351c Gday Nutwood I thought these 'work' photos were on another PC which is at the doctors. Anyway you got me thinking and I found other photos on the work computer. Enough excuses, here are some interesting shots. As usual I wish I had taken more while she was apart. Of particular note is the piston damage. This was caused by worn our pre com chambers in the head. I was told if I was gong to recon the head I might as well do the engine as well. So what started out as a tooth ache turned into a major project. These photos are not of anything in particular so if anyone has any questions just drop me a line. We did not have a work shop manual so had some major learnings along the way. Enjoy CC
Fiat 351c more photos... Note the oil in the bell housing, not sure the previous owner knew what he was doing there.
Tarpon 140. That little jigger sure is looking the dogs nuts. Give yourself a pat on the back for all the work you have done, you should feel very happy. 1 question. Did you replace the stud bolts for the head in this rebuild? If yes where did you source them from and how much each ? Thanks Garrie.
From the photos they look very similar to the ones on my 70 CI
Hi Garrie We did not replace the head studs. We still have work to do because she is blowing too much smoke for a mchine with new pistons, rings, liners etc etc. Just got to use it for a bit to confirm whether it is oil or deisel. After we inserted reconditioned injectors we noticed one of the orifice plates had disintegrated. Apparently this happens with old injectors, the other layer of complexity is that they do not make them anymore. I'm not sure if this is an issue with one of the other injectors but will obviously have to be considered when we try to find the problem. If anyone has advice drop me a line. CC
Fiat 351c More photos of clutch and brake renno...
Fiat 351c and more...
Fiat 351c few more...
What do call orifice plates, is that the lock down plate with two bolt holes that keeps the injector held into the head ?
Great thread guys,good to see these girls getting some love,heres a pic of my 50ci/AD5
Im not sure what the absolute correct terminology is but: it is the small thin cast plate that sits inside the injector down near the nozzle. It has several small stainless steel rods inserted into it (never lose these as they are like diamonds, they dont make them anymore). Someone might know why but this cast plate disintegrated into a thousand peices on me, im guessing the metal just fatigues over 60 years. The plate and the rods also wear. Apparently the injectors for the 311, 312 & 351 series and the 411, 412 & 451 series are the same so I was able to get out of a bind. For anyone that has these injector spares they are like gold. If anyone has or knows of any other 311, 312, 351 series tractor/dozers I'd be interested in getting in touch. Im guessing there's not many out there.
Fiat 351c more photos
Tarpon 140. If you do need to buy them make sure your sitting when you ask the price, youd think they were cast gold .
Good work tarpon140 - I missed the last few months of updates somehow. Love all the pics, thanks. Gonna have to do steering clutches and brakes on my 451 too soon so is good to see what I might be in for. What paint did u use? Enamel bareco? Did u get bits for your injectors? You probably have worked out that some stuff may be available for 455 injectors which are the same as 451 but are different because they are the modified ones so 455 can go into 451 so I guess from what u have listed they should fit yours too. There is a chance that an old school diesel shop that specialised in Bosch could have things like them little flying saucer plates from similar injectors. Stuff like old vw & merc injectors are very similar. What colour is the smoke? Jimbob
Gday Jimbob First four litres I got off ebay and although looked a bit dodgy it actually came out of the gun nicely and covered well. This lot unfortunately ran out so we went to a colour match paint shop to get the rest. Although this did the job (was meant to be quality auto paint) it wasn't as good as the stuff I bought off ebay. Unfortunately I haven't been able to work her much yet so still find out if it is oil or diesel. I reckon it is white smoke but others reckon it is darker. Whether it uses oil or not will be the true test. CC
Re the smoke - have u checked the diaphragm at the end of the injector pump? They r supposed to get a drop of oil periodically to keep it supple & prevent perishing. One of the symptoms of a perished diaphragm is white smoke. Others can be overevving (governor issues) and running on as well as waaay too much fuel going in. Pretty easy to check, take the cover off & look see. If u need one let me know, I found them at a diesel shop in Vic for $20 ea +. Tis just a Bosch type A pump, same as Kiki copies on say MQ patrols and many others. I was getting all my old fiat orange paint at an industrial paint shop till the shop disappeared, now I have some bareco that I haven't used yet - hopefully is the same colour. Just had another look at your pics to re realise yours is a 3xx & not a 4xx engine which probably shares some similarities even though the pump is on the opposite side. It looks to have a vacuum diaphragm for the governor on the back of the pump and if it is a Bosch pump (will say on the plate under license Bosch etc) then I would say it is the same p/n of diaphragm I was talking about. Could also be worth checking for vacuum leaks from the steel pipe work etc (block up any leaks with old fiat orange jam :Cowboy) would cause similar symptoms I reckon. Jimbob
Evening Jimbob and thanks for the note. Funny you say that as we were discussing the problem today and the injector pump diaphragm came up. I suggested that surely the injector pump shop would have checked the diaphragm given I paid them a small fortune to service it. I was assured that dollars spent does always equate to service outcomes. Anyway I wont say too much until we check the diaphragm. There is a lever/button on the machine that you use to inject diesel into the chamber on cold mornings. This is not working so I'm guessing there is a relationship with that and the smoke. I hope so anyway as it is a small fix. Yes the injector pump is a Bosch. The 311, 312, 351c series came with two different motors. I forget the motor numbers but the service manual I have and this machine have different motors. This was the first series Fiat released with a diesel engine (gasoline prior). Would you believe today we discovered air pressure back in the radiator (problem that started the rebuild). Need to pull the head off again and try and solve the problem. I hope it is a faulty head gasket but have a bad feeling it could be more major. As always suggestions would be appreciated. Cameron C
Gidday Cameron Always hard when a lot of engine parts have been worked on and then a problem appears that could be caused by many things - where to start. The people that would have had 1st hand experience with some of this gear back in the day think that google is something you do down at a nudist beach or something so they are no help unless you know someone? I have had some success using google chrome to search for stuff on these old fiats, but with the auto translation bit turned on, and you can sort of make out most of the stuff from some Italian and French forums. If the smoke is from one injector you maay be able to notice a difference if you crack one injector at a time or you could rip em out and get em rechecked fairly cheaply. If the pump has been done then the diaphragm should be done - u could ask them nicely straight up and how the answer goes will tell u if u need to check it (still could be a vacuum leak or issue with the Venturi throttle body tho). Most fiat experience will say to replace head studs for the full length wet liner ones that go right down to the bottom - these are different though and not sure if they should be replaced as a mater of course. Hope it's not too serious for the water pressurisation issue - I like to use vht copper coat on all my head gaskets I had a Perkins 4-236 in a backhoe that took a couple of goes to get right (I got the head done & used vht copper coat the 2nd time tho) so if yours is flat both sides with no cracks or porosity and the studs are holding correct tension it should be all good up top. Are the liners removable and if so were they bumped and therefore the seal could be shot down below (hard to say if water goes toward the crankcase or the crankcase pressure goes toward the water?)? Can be a bit hard to nut out some of these issues on the old gear - seal n go is one of the "mechanic in a bottle" magic potions, that old timers that do cylinder heads all the way into retirement, say that it is one that will fix small sealing issues permanently. Maybe you have more than one issue tho. Good luck Jimbob
I have a 14C which very rarely needs the cold start button, however one morning after I did use it , the tractor was blowing smoke. Eventually discovered that the button hadn't retracted after starting, it had seized from lack of use. Extra fuel did wonders for performance though. Cheers, Greg
The bloke who works on the machine while I'm doing my day job pulled the head off yesterday. The pre com chambers virtually fell out in his hand!!! When we had the head serviced as part of the re build they couldn't find original pre coms so the fitter machined down some out of a 4 series (I think). Anyway apparently they did not do the job. Too much fuel and too much heat wrecked them in about an hour of running. Not too sure where to from here but I think it is going to take some detective work. I also figure this is related to the smoke but I'm not 100% convinced. The smoke was there immediately we started her after the rebuild. Has anyone had experience with pre com chambers? Wish I had taken photos of the originals as they were completely shot and not something you see every day. Back to the drawing board for now.
Jimbob I didn't answer some of your questions so will attempt to do so here. 1. If the smoke is from one injector (smoke across all four cylinders) 2. If the pump has been done then the diaphragm should be done (OK will fix pre coms first then come back to this if required.) 3. Still could be a vacuum leak or issue with the Venturi throttle body tho. (OK) 4. Most fiat experience will say to replace head studs for the full length wet liner ones that go right down to the bottom - these are different though and not sure if they should be replaced as a mater of course. (I was told its only newer motors that have torque and twist (not correct description but hope you know what I mean) head studs that need to be replaced. What is your view?) 4. Hope it's not too serious for the water pressurisation issue (The new head gasket has a burn hole through it. I read today this is from the metal getting too hot, then expanding and thinning the head gasket to the point it just burns out. This makes sense to me given the pre com issues) 5. Are the liners removable (Liners were replaced with new ones) CC
I know exactly where yore coming from,the push button on my 70CI keeps the starter engadged if rain has got into the rubber covering and keeps the starter spinning without spraying with possums **** (Spray-Lube )
P1ss is not a profane word ,tell it like it comes out from every thing on this planet,drink water=****,I am totally over this special , got to be cowering to might be offended people,if they don't like it P1ss OFF
Reading your last post(257) it would appear that you have not become any smarter.
This coming from a self proffesed expert I assume.
Lest we not forget - and make the last post, the last post Jeembawb
Problem - smoke, burnt out head gasket and destroyed pre com chambers caused by injector pump reconditioning firm putting camshaft back in around the wrong way. Solution - new pre coms, head gasket and sorted out injector pump. Update - now injector pump not lining up with drive coupling. She has fought me the whole way.
Keep your chin up mate - you've come this far Jeembawb
She is going - two and half years but got there. Photos to follow.
451C in the Adelaide Hills Hi All, I've been following this thread for a year or so now, and it seems now is the time to make my first post. A 451c came into my care almost 2 years ago. It had been sitting out in the weather, under a tarp for about 5 to 10 years. I'll give a quick history of where I'm at with it: Dropped the engine oil. This was ok. Dropped the transmission and final drives oil. The final drives and transmission had taken in a large amount of water and came out of the drain hole looking like a light brown custard. I took the covers off the bottom of the final drives and cleaned these as much as possible, but I let the trans/diff drain for a couple of weeks, then replaced it with a cheap motor oil, in order to flush as much of the water, etc out. Replace the fuel filters, checked air filter, coolant levels, and managed to start it with the help of some aero-start. The blade wouldn't lift, so found and repaired a hole worn through the hydraulic lines. The blade now lifts, so could can forward and reverse movement. Couldn't turn in either direction. Tried to free the steering clutches by dropping the clutch with the brakes on. After a while managed to get one free, but the other was well stuck. I'd taken the drain plugs out of the steering clutch housings, and nothing came out, but on closer inspection, the holes were full of grease, so I poked a screwdriver up and out came at least a couple of litres of water out of each side. At this point, I had some shelter sorted out at home, so called up the towing company and they brought it back for me. This was about September last year, and I left the cover off the top of the steering clutch housing over Adelaide's dry summer. This must have helped dry them out as now I have steering in both directions. Not sure of the condition of things in there, but the clutches and brakes seem to be doing what they should. Now that I can steer, I gave it a run around the driveway and dropped the oil in the trans/diff and final drives again, and replaced with more cheap motor oil. What came out was still a creamy brown colour, but after running it again, it appears to be ok now. Once I'm sure I don't need to change the oils again, I'll get the proper grades for the trans/diff, final drives and engine. I don't want to get into the steering clutches unless I really need to, as I don't have the tools to split the tracks, unless someone can shed some light on the best way to do this. Do you need a press? I've removed the main clutch because it was staying engaged for a short time after dis-engaging it. As you can see from the photo, the clutch and housing is covered in oil. I've removed the clutch. Does this look like it would clean up or would I need to replaced it? Is there any way to tell where the oil is coming from? It looks more like motor oil than gearbox oil, but i'm not sure. If it's the seal at the back of the crankshaft, can this be replaced without removing the engine? I do have a service manual, but some things aren't clear from this. That's probably enough questions for now. I hope I haven't prattled on for too long. Thanks for a great forum, and I'd really appreciate any advice that anyone has to offer. Cheers, Hillsy.
Good 1st post hilly - nice to see lots of pics. Looks like you got a good machine there when you consider the age of it & how long it's been sitting out in the open. Tarps don't last too long and can act as a funnel sometimes. You did well to get it started (bonus), moving (bonus), hydraulics working (bonus), and steering (big bonus). In one post you've done it all. Next post we need pics using the slasher & pushing some dirt. The clutch plates are cheap ($80 or so) but you can spend some bucks on the throw out Bearing assy which may not be necessary and even the plates may not be needed (10mm is std new thickness). More time & effort should be put into eliminating as much slop/play in all linkages & shafts from the clutch lever all the way thru to the plate thickness. I would like to design a hyd assist for the clutch on these because they are hard to operate when adjusted properly but require constant adjustment too. Tis worth seeing where the oil is coming from too off course. If it is coming from the rear main it would be sort of ok if it was able to drain from the bottom of the case constantly. Good work Hillsy - at least the summers are dry in sa which may have saved it a bit - doesn't look too bad for rust on the panels. Can you post some pics of the blade tilt mechanisms - Tis different from mine. Cheers JimBob P.s. Re the aero start - the user manual actually states about one plus minutes of glow. Makes a huge difference.
Thanks JimBob, I get a couple of shots of the blade tilt mechanisms in the next few days. I'm thinking I'll pull the flywheel off and have a look behind it to see if there is an obvious oil leak from the rear main. As you can see from the photo, the oil is black, and it's been flung all around the clutch housing. I'll clean it up and put it back in and give it another run and see if it's still got the problem. I imagine it will, but hopefully will give me some indication where it's coming from. There are a few panels that have rusted away. I'm working on reconstructing the seat. The covers over the rollers on the tracks have all but rusted away. Do you have any suggestion for replacements for these? Good tip on the long glow time. I'll give it a go once the clutch goes back in. There will be more questions coming up. Thanks for your advice. Cheers, Hillsy.
You can buy a seat frame - it shows up on eBay which will link to gw tractor parts, if it was cheaper I would prob buy it when I'm ready for it but reckon I will modify in a cat seat & frame with fwd/back adjustment- it might turn out better but won't look factory - the plan is for it to be a working dozer rather than a show pony after all. The mud / Rock covers: the bloke that delivered my dozer was an old bloke that used to work for one of the fiat dealerships in the era of these ones - he had seen someone recreate these covers / guards with fibreglass. Not sure if using the steel as a basis but the idea intrigues me. It could work for light duty for sure, how it will work with rocks might be interesting. Cheers Jimbob
Here are some photos of the blade tilt mechanism. Sorry it took a while.... Hope these help. Hillsy.
Rear main seal Hillsy This is what we found when we opened up my 351c. After rebuilding the motor I find that ive got oil in the clutch housing again (coming out through the inspection cap above the clutch). Its definately motor oil so the rear main seal needs attention again. I'm intreseted how you go accessing the main seal through the fly wheel.
Hi Tarpon, I'm going to put my 451c to work in the next couple of weeks pulling some logs up a hill, so I'm going to keep an eye on the clutch housing and see if it gets any new oil in there. I'm trying to get the trees pulled up before it gets to wet, so I bypassed pulling the flywheel off. I imagine the clutch will be out again soon, so I'll let you know how I go. By the way, I didn't have anywhere near that amount of oil in my clutch housing as you have. It just looked like it had been sprayed around off the flywheel. Cheers, Hillsy
Recent issue has been 351c getting stuck in reverse. You can see from the photos the problem was a worn gear pattern. First of all we cut the pattern out to save dismantling the transmission. Upon finding we had not built it up enough we ended up welding it 'in situ'. Problem solved but not without its challenges.
Welded in situ? Good work - I guess nothing's impossible if u have the right attitude, a welder and a grinder. Imagine the old days when the the grinder option was a file (aka manual grinder)? Jimbob
Fiat 70ci Project Mix n Match Some planets have aligned and i now have a crane truck i can use to make this project happen. Update - I have 3x Fiat70ci/AD7 dozers that dont move (at least i dont think they move... it could be like the tractors in the field at night in that Cars movie?). I have pondered (at length) over what is the best way to turn 3 dozers into 2. The pics below is of the "parts" dozer that came as a set with my 1st dozer and was dead in the water due to sitting too long uncovered after the head had been removed when the prevoius bloke looked at doing the head stud replacement job (he baulked). Thing is this dozer has the least hrs on it and looks a bit unloved (not that you could have seen it before i cut the grass around it), but everything in the back end seems pretty tight. Clutch & steering levers and pedals all seem good & even the f/d seals don't seem to be seeping (i should cheeck the oil level I guess?). So... the plan is to take the engine out of the one that got the head stud job (somewhat rebuilt & seems real good) and put it into this one. The crane truck makes this job a whole lot easier than it looked previously. Phase 1: Cut the grass around the 2 dozers & put the 2 next to each other... coming soon Jimbob
Project mix n match 1st order of the day (last weekend this was) is to unwrap the old girl and move her(with a bit of help from a friend) to a place to remove the c-frame and blade. The to drag her over to the staging area.
Hi Garrie,Yes you can buy a full rebuild kit or just a replacement seal. Just did my 70CI last week
fiat 70ci engine rebuild Hello fellas hope all are well .Have a couple of spare parts left over after an engine rebuild two spacers sleeves or dowels .They are both black and have obviously been in oil all their lives . One is about 11/4 long by approx 1 in in diameter with a approx 10 mill hole through it. The other is about 1/2 long is stepped is about 1in in diameter and also has a 10mm hole through it. The engine is fitted and running fine .Have looked through the parts manual with a magnifying glass and one could be a dowel from the counterbalance shaft mounting plate [ to the block ] the other could be from the drive end of the counterbalance shaft drive . Any help would be appreciated thanks Billyboy
Gidday billyboy If it goes it's definitely not too necessary. - some photers would be a good thing. I take it you have rebuilt a 70ci? Is it originally an electric start or a pilot motor jobbie? jimbob
Hmmm, Sounds a s though it running fine without them but if I were asked to make a guess, based on the description, I would say they are some some of oil flow restrictor, designed to fit in a hole and balance up oil flows. That really is just a wild guess but over the years, I've come across similar parts, fulfilling that role. Chances are, if this is the case, you'll probably be ok due to the improvements in oils since that engine was designed. On the subject of your brakes, I'm inclined to be pessimistic. When I purchased my dozer, the seller (now deceased) told me off the kero trick. My experience was that it might clean the surface of the brake shoe but if it's soaked in oil, nothing is going to fix it except replacement. Replacing the brake shoe is no big deal and in most cases can be done without having to lift the top off the transmission. A more serious concern is the condition of the clutch plates. If there's enough oil in there to affect the brake and you've got the standard clutch plates, I'd be starting to research steering clutch replacement. The steering clutches are the Achilles heel of these machines as the sealing arrangements between the clutches and the transmission are less than ideal.
Hi Billyboy, Hope I'm not being a sad sack but I suspect this is what you have to look forward to. I'm trying to soften up the shock.
Thanks for your reply Nutwood. Just a bit more information that might explain the problem .When the dozer is driving and both clutches are pulled back the machine stops when either one is pulled back it slowly turns to that side. When the brake is applied with little pressure on the right side with the clutch back it turns to the right. When the clutch is pulled back [disengaged ] on the left it takes considerable pressure on the brake for it to turn. However i tried to set the travel on the clutch levers to the spec in the manual and found they were at their maximum and any more adjustment brought the lever over the cam and it the levers would stay back so i adjusted them to the maximum without them sticking. Fellas i am not very good at this computer stuff [ about as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike ]so if i dont answer you promptly it is because i am having a problem. [But then again who doesnt have problems ] Thanks Nutwood Queenslander and Jeeeeembaaauuuubbbb for your help.
It's a funny thing but it seems to be always the left side that gives trouble. I wonder if the crown wheel "heaps" the oil up more on that side or is it because we drive RHD vehicles and make the left side work harder by always turning right? I wonder which side packs up first in Europe or the US?
Hello fellas back again after much work on the 70ci .Everything i touch on the old girl is worn out so after rebuilding the engine and refitting it i pushed about 250 yards of dirt and run it beautifully. Am happy with its performance.As to the turning brakes i hadf to pull the steering clutches out . the drive hubs to the final drives had both come loose and the oil was leaking along the tapered shafts past the nuts onto the drums. Read a post from jeembob about jacking up the machine to turn the tracks and yes had to do that and used a cumalong to turn the tracks to undo the drum bolts. Got the clutches and bevel gear out and made a stand to sit it in to pull it apart . What a job. Made sockets out of plate to get the nuts on the drum and hub off . Made pullers for just about everything. Then had to heat the inner clutch hubs with oxy in 6 places after applying the puller and then flogged the puller with a 10 lb hammer to get the first one off. Run out of oxy before getting the second one off. Bearing and seal shot so will replace them. Has been a labour of love but i can see that once this machine is in good order it should see me out. Will look around for a tilt ram and control later for the blade. Hopefully will have it together in a month......maybe. Have got the manuals on setting the preload on the bevel gear tapered bearings but would like a bit of advise from anyone who has done this before. Will keep you updated . Hope to hear from yaaal.
Thanks Garrie been a while as i cant get the hang of using the forum yet . Been on a dozen times but cant seem to get it right. Have made a lot of progress with the 70ci. Had her running and pushed about 250 yards of material with her .Went so well .The power was more than i expected . The steering deteriorated as the job went along so i have stripped the brakes and clutches out. The most time taken was in the manufacture of all the pullers and a frame to mount the bevel gear and clutches in to disassemble.Have made pullers for everything so far. For the waterpump removal i stripped the pump on the machine and found the pump housing had been broken for a long time and used the impellor shaft and impellor as a puller . It came out but was extremely tight All apart now and parts are here so will be together soon. The oil in the brakes was coming along the shaft from the final drives as the nuts holding the hubs to the shaft had both come loose.Turns out on closer inspection that the keyways in the hubs are worn but in the shafts they are not. Will measure them and make stepped keys. Just a note of interest while rebuilding the engine i plastigauged the bearings and found the main bearings to be standard and still in spec . Either crank and bearings have been replaced [boy oh boy this machine must have done a lot of work ] or it is a testament to the design of this machine. Has been frustrating at times during the rebuild but i feel that this machine was so well designed that if i build it well it will see me out. Will keep you posted.
Hellol fellas just an update on the 70ci . Built the clutches after fitting new bearings and seals .Had to replace the bearings for the throwout forks . Once again had to make a puller plate to get them out. Will set up the preload this weekend on the bearings. Gw tractors [ Matt ] was good enough to trace and send to me the c spanner for tensioning the bearings up. The actual length of the spanner is critical to getting the correct preload so will make a spanner as the tension wrench fits into the end of it. Hope to get it together and running soon. Been 14 months now If anyone needs info i am only too happy to help. Also does anyone know of a 70ci for sale around Muckay suitable for parts or rebuild . Hope to hear some comments
Thanks nutwood good pictures . I pulled them out and found the right one was dry but the left was wet with oil . It wasnt as bad as your picture shows but the clutches were not slipping it was that the brake was not working. I found that the bucket in the right slave cylinder for the clutch was virtually non existant but the clutch was still releasing manually. Have it all back together now and should be running soon Thanks for your help . Will keep you posted.
Very quiet here at the moment. I'm wondering if anyone can help me with details of the belly plate arrangements on a 70CI? I've had to pull the radiator as the water is pouring out nearly as fast as I can pour it in. In the process, I've had to remove the front surround. This is bolted to the belly plate at the bottom and the roll cage at the top. Taking out bolts has resulted in the roll cage springing up and the belly plate dropping down a bit. Investigating this, I've found two mounting points at the bottom of the front of the sump with corresponding holes in the belly plate (but no bolts!). The lack of bolts in this location is obviously a problem as the roll cage is holding up the belly plate. I suspect the radiator is being the meat in the sandwich as everything moves. My concern is that I may not be seeing the whole problem. If I bolt up the front of the belly plate to the sump, I might be simply moving the stress to this point. Presumably the belly plate connects at multiple locations? It's pretty muddy under there at the present and I'm struggling to find other bolting points. Advice would be much appreciated.
Hello nutwood just put the belly guard on my 70 ci a week ago .There are 5 bolts across the front approx 3/8 by 1 1/2 there are 2 bolts back from them about a foot that are threads in the sump about 19 mm in diameter and there are three bolts on each side at the back about 16 mm in diameter that go through the belly guard and are actually bell housing bolts..While i had the belly guard out i put a piece of pipe underneath it and found the balance point . I then welded a chain link on each side at the balance point so i could lift it up on each side with 2 small cumalongs or chainblocks. Was very easy to line the holes up. If you remove the covers from the track tensioner springs the bell housing bolts holding the rear of the bellyguard can be reached through the track. It is ok for it to drop a bit and when you have done the radiator repairs just put a jack under the belly guard lift it up and fit new bolts then tighten them all. Just an update on the 70ci at home .Put her to work on the farm and probably has about 40 hours on her . What a great machine . The rebuilt engine runs so sweet new clutches and brakes all ok. Just a really good machine, Cant rate her too highly. Does anyone know where i can find one in the Mackay Qld area suitable for a rebuild or parts jimbaub is in my area but i cant seem to contact him. Help would be appreciated Hope this helps.
Thank you very much. That is exactly the information I was after. I'm thinking my back bolts are loose as the belly plate is flapping about too much. My manual shows a couple of straps coming up that bolt onto the block on the side where the radiator support arms attach. These straps aren't present and I'm debating whether to fabricate some. Sounds like you don't have these either so I might save myself the job. Glad you're enjoying your machine. I'm in the process of replacing my radiator and a track tension spring. I'll put some images up as the job progresses. My RH tension spring is in about six bits and I've been welding it up for thirteen years. Without it intact, if I reverse on a steep sideways slope, I run the risk of the track coming off the front idler. I then have to prop up on the ripper and blade, hold out the LH track via the steering clutch and try and "run" the track back on. Bit stressful in some of the conditions I encounter. Time to bite the bullet and replace the spring! Not sure where Jimbaub is. He's gone a bit quiet.
This one is going up at a Gracemere clearing sale on Sept.23 Billyboy. http://raywhitegracemere.com.au/properties/clearing-sale/qld/nine-mile-4702/uncategorised/1731019
Nice looking dozer. Worryingly clean but it looks as though it's been sitting there a while, judging by the grass.
Billyboy could well be plenty of 70c1's and or AT7's around the areas just north of Rockhampton as Farmers Centre was the agent for Fiat in the late 60's early 70's if my memory serves me correctly. Again if my memory is right they had their yard somewhere on the main drag opposite where the road turns left at that park back then they nearly always had maybe a new one in the yard and anything up to about half a dozen used dozers most of them Fiats. I was working around Rolleston back then and I drove a 70ci almost identical to the machine in the pic above but didn't have rippers but had a stickrake and drawbar on the back. It had only couple of thousand hours from new and I would have put about another thousand or more hours up on it raking and then plowing it all up and planting either oats or forage sorghum. I have also driven the Fiat AT7's too which were basically the same machine. They were quite good machines from memory but I found them not all that comfortable to do really long hours compared to the Cat d4d which I later owned.
Gday Fellas, I have finally got around to signing up to this site. I have 3x 70ci dozers and all three are pony start. I have problems with two of them. Does anyone have an idea of where to get parts for these pony start engines?
Have you tried the usual suspects... GW Tractors in Brisbane or SB Tractor Parts near Kingaroy? Both import parts weekly directly from Italia.
I did call SB tractors, reckoned they couldn't get anything for them. Have done a bit of 'google' research. Pretty hard digging but I need someone who reads and writes italian! I might give GW tractors a call - I was thinking they would have the same answer. Will give them a go.
Wooww! almost 2 & half years! time flies but it didn't feel like fun. I did manage to get a spare week over the xmas break to get back to my project from aug 2015 (wow) and have stripped down one of the dozers (in extreme heat conditions - had to keep pumping the fluids in) ready to swap in a rebuilt (mostly) engine. Hope i can keep it going this time and not have my life railroaded by other peoples problems. JimBob
welcome bgms85 - what bits do you need for the pony motor? as you can see, one of my dozers has one (apparently the old boy that bought it new ordered it special that way??) and most likely will be surplus to requirements, will know once i swap in the other motor to make sure the difference in bellhousings is not an issue. Not in real great shape to look at but it was a low mileage dozer so some parts may be ok.
He's baaaaack! JimBob
Hi JimBob, Great to see you back. You've been missed! Our trusty dozer is still going strong down here in Tassie. Bit too strong apparently! I'm in the process of building a back road into the property. I've been fighting the rocks but realised I'm running out of time so got local excavator firm in to quote on bringing in a 22 ton excavator to extract the more recalcitrant patients. All was looking good and then they phoned back to say they weren't prepared to send their machine into battle. Apparently the boss decided it worked too fast for our conditions. Cheesed off, but it's a sort of a compliment. They looked at what I'd got out with the Fiat and decided their 22 t couldn't handle what I'd left behind! I've always reckoned my dozer to be about the equivalent of a 7 t excavator. The stopping spots seem to be the same. Seems like I might have to reassess!
Hello JimBob hope you are well. Glad you are back on the site. I am from Koumala and was hoping you would know of any 70cis for sale in the area suitable for rebuild or parts. The one we have is going very well after 14 months of spare time work. Could not be happier with it. Have a lot of pictures from the rebuild but am not computer savvy but will find someone who is to put them on the site Thanks Billyboy
BTW. Thanks for the images JimBob. Interesting to see the stripped machine. I have to say I'm curious about the wear on your tracks. My grousers are no better than yours but they are worn straight, whereas yours curve off to the sides. I also note that your track plates appear to be worn thin on the edges. Is this just the more benign Queensland terrain that gradually sands the metal away as opposed to Tasmanian rocks that bash the crap out of everything?
this machine spent a fair time in rocky hilly country sliding sideways apparently - i have real good tracks on my other one so will make that another project to swap them over once i know it all goes ok. Will get some more photers this weekend when i strip the other one down. JimBob
good to hear you got the dozer going Billyboy - 14 months of spare time? how'd you manage that? I hear of a few around from time to time and one of mine will be spare parts / lawn ornament and will sell another one when i get it going. Looks like this site is a bit easier to use since i was here last - the "upload a file" button seems to let you load the pics. JimBob
Project mix n match cont': Does everyone have an oil cooler on their tractor? I noticed one of mine does & one doesn't (& the other one has too much greenery over it to be able to tell). Just wondering? Jimbob
Winch removal procedure (but not as the book says): Felt a little bad doing it this way, but i needed to keep some frame for the drawbar and the winch is surplus to requirements for me. I guess if anyone wants to put it back into service it's just a bit of plate & some welding. Anyone need a winch? Jimbob
Hello again JimBob hope all is well with you. Your 70 is the same as ours .By the pictures even the same cab . We also have an oil cooler and cleaned it up and put it back on . It can be turned off in winter on the side of the engine block. I see your delivery pipe from the pump is also kinked where it bends . I wrapped both pipes with spiral wrap to stop them rubbing through. The 14 months i spent rebuilding was just the available spare time but as you know there is a lot of work in it . We didnt repaint anything as we wanted to see how she went but now we use it too much to paint her. My dad [84 years old] was my offsider during the rebuild and as an old dozer driver waited patiently for it to be finished. He got to drive it twice before passing away suddenly. Miss him so much. Hope to have the rebuild photos uploaded tonight.
Sorry to hear about your Dad BillyBoy. Great to hear he got to drive it a couple of times (so just as well you didn't paint it so it got finished). yeah the delivery pipe (actually pressure pipe) has a little patch welded around it and i think it was there to prevent rubbing on the radiator bottom tank but i have a piece of rubber tyre jammed in there too now. Re the spare time: man if i could count the hours with the various projects on these (& my 451 which i reluctantly sent away a year ago when i came to the realisation that someone else may have more spare time than i do) - the job doing the head studs was a total mission and now i have committed to doing it again on my other one (bought the parts and everything) - i must be nuts or like these dozers. Still the big one is going to be the steering clutches so hats off to all that have already done it - gonna be going thru various posts on here when i get to those bits to see what to do - good idea for starting this thread Nutwood! Jimbob
Hope all of you are well! Here's some snap shots of the rebuild of the 70ci
Just a few photos of my offsider my best mate and my dad all rolled into one.
Hello fellas hope you are all well and progressing with your projects. JimBob i have a jig for holding the clutches while you rebuild them and also a spanner for torqueing the crownwheel bearings . I am happy to lend them for anyone to use or to copy and also share any info i have. I also made sockets to tighten the nuts on the clutches as well as for the brake hubs to the final drives and also the puller to compress the clutch springs so the colletts can be removed . This is also used to refit them. Just let me know. regards Billyboy
Hello fellas .The first photo is of torqueing the clutch drum nuts . From memory about 750 ft/lb or as tight as you can get them with 10 ft of pipe. The others are of lowering the rebuilt clutches and crownwheel into place. All assisted with my trusty offsider . Billyboy
First test moving 250 metres of dirt. Billyboy
Brings back memories Billyboy. I was always impressed with the stoutness of the blade on those tractors. Your old man looked great for his age, must of been a huge shock for you all.
Always much better when the fruits of our labors comes together!! I like the open air shop, would not bode well around here with winter temps at 12F and summer bugs ferocious!!
Hello fellas hope all is well with you all. Thanks for the comment Queenslander just like the 70ci they dont make them like my old man anymore. The forward reverse lever is getting hard to change so will adjust the master clutch to fix the problem and will adjust the steering brakes as well this weekend .Also the adjustable rollforward arms on the blade keep unwinding because there are no adjusting pins through them so will adjust them as well and fit pins. Have to change the engine oil as well as had to put a pint in the other day. Havent put a spanner on her since getting her going and has maybe 100 hours on her now. Hello DMiller hope everything is well with your machine. Yes our weather is good here but as soon as the temp drops to 32 i look for a coat. Havent heard from JimBob so i guess he is flat out working on his machine. Will try to add a couple of photos for interest . Will post soon.Billyboy
Hello fellas hope you are all well. Thought i might post a photo of an Allis Chalmers Model M i have and still use. Apparently built between 1936 and 1944. Was repowered with an L4 perkins before i got it that i rebuilt. Also done the brakes and clutches radiator and blade lift cylinders. Snug this log out about 500 yards . Bloodwood that fell across the road .26 ft long. Hope i havent infected the site with another brand. Once again my trusty offsider was with me. Miss him . Billyboy
Not a problem, Fiat ended up taking over Allis so they are a close fit here!! Nice seeing old iron still working for a living!
Well hello fellas .Hope all is well with you all. Just a hint. Had to bleed the fuel system recently on the 70ci but the primer pump doesnt work so my son found a novel way to do so .He removed the fuel hose from the pipe into the primer pump and connected an outboard motor primer pump hose to the pipe put the other end in a drum of diesel, cracked the bleeders on the filter housings and pumped the fuel through. He then tightened the bleeders up cracked the bleeder on the pump, pumped it through and locked it up also. First crank she started and ran all day . Still cant believe how good these machines are .Till next time Billyboy.
Hello Fellas hope all is well with you all. Had a water leak yesterday .It was coming out of the bottom of the core above the bottom tank. As it was just a drip i used an old bush remedy and put a small container of saxa black pepper in the radiator when it was hot, worked it for 30 minutes and the leak had taken up. I have even used this remedy for a leaking water pump seal . It is suprising how big a leak it will seal. I always add the pepper when the machine is hot. Hope this helps someone. Till next time . Billyboy
Gday Jeembawb, would be after the whole pony if its available! Does it run? Sorry about the delay!
Hi, I have been private messaging Nutwood and I thought I would revive this old post. I have just purchased a 70ci that has seized steering clutches and a broken track spring. I managed to get a manual for the ad7 but am wondering about the track spring. Mine is not hydraulic, Looking at it I presume I have to break the track and shift front idler forward. My question is do I have to take the blade off? Does the track have a primary pin that I remove? And how do I do this? Actually that's three questions! It's ok I have plenty more!
I think I worked it out after giving it a wash. It un bolts from the front idler. Does this mean I do not have to break the track? I am just trying to organize myself to do clutches so I will not be able to move it far when I start on them.
Welcome to HEF secondom8. Many moons ago we used to own an AT7C which is a slightly updated 70ci. Although similar, the AD7 was much later, so that service manual might not be a lot of assistance. Not sure about the older style track adjuster but it looks like it might come out without removing the idler. Do you have another spring to replace it with? Treat it with a great deal of respect, could be safer to cut it up until the tension is relieved rather than dealing with that old thread. In any case, I’ld want to be 100% sure how it works before unbolting anything. What’s wrong with your clutches? May be prudent to get that problem sorted and deal with the spring later.
I recently replaced a broken track spring. Mine are tensioned via grease pressure. I took images and intended to do a write-up but have been struggling for time. To do mine, I had to break the track. If you are also doing steering clutches, breaking the track makes that job easier. To break the track, I located the relevant pin and put it centre top, after which I removed the track plate to either side. I then fabricated a rough and ready punch support which bolted to the track. This enabled me to heat the track with the oxy, quickly turn it off and lay into the pin with a 14lb sledge. The previous time I broke the track, I split it at the rear of the machine but I needed an assistant to hold the driver punch (with a big pair of multigrips!). Working alone, having a rigid guide to align the punch made it much easier. With regard to the track spring, one of mine was seriously broken when I bought the machine. I got away for quite a few years with simply welding it back together with low hydrogen (16TC) rods. Repair wouldn't last but was quick and easy. Replacing it was a reasonably big job. From memory, you should get change from $1k for the spring.
Thanks for the replies! I am pretty sure that the ad7, or at7? and 70ci are very similar from observations of the manual, I will know for sure when I start pulling to bits! The clutches are just seized from sitting I think. I have tried to un seize them but i dont want to break anything so i will pull it down for a look. The levers pull always to the seat and the cams are jammed open...or closed depending how you look at it. Clutches are seized closed..I will try the weld spring first I think. My farm doesnt have rocks,just dirt pushing.
I've got a couple options for spring ranging from second hand 450 to new 1400...
If the clutches are not slipping, I wouldn't be rushing to pull things apart. Check the release levers are doing their thing, may well need adjustment. If the levers are releasing the clutches correctly even a rusted clutch pack should break loose under torque. Once loose, they'll soon polish up! Oil's the killer on those clutches. Seized up sounds really good news!
If I pull the lever back it doesn't touch the cam. I think I will take the top cover off to have a better look.
See your point. If you have the time, having a look is probably wise. Give you an idea of where you're at with the rest of the transmission. Chances are, you'll be replacing the booster cylinders, at the very least.
Well slowly finding some time to get into the clutches! Tomorrow I should have the top off. Had to chop a brace someone had put on by welding the two guards together.
LOL; so it's not just me! Same problem. F'ing great lump of steel across the back. Now replaced with 75 x 12 angle, bolted into place. I feel your pain!
Lol, yes I dont know why it's not bolted..that's how it will go back together!
Gday nutwood, i was wondering if the gear lever just lifts up with the top cover? I have worked out the reverser has to be disconnected but I was wondering about the gear stick. Didn't get much done today but I have a couple weeks off after this week.Thanks
To be honest, I'm buggered if I can remember. I'm thinking the gear stick sits on a little stand and you undo a few bolts and lift the assembly off? I'm trying to find some images from when I was last in there but am not having any immediate success. I'm pretty sure the top cover comes off as a plate, not a plate with levers and paraphernalia attached. Looking at your image, when I got to that stage, I went and hired a petrol engine powered pressure cleaner. Bought ten cans of engine cleaner on special for a couple of $'s each and blasted every bit of it. Can strongly recommend this. I had no water where the job took place, but 200 litres in a tractor bucket did the job. Once that cover comes off, it's all open. Really good to have it all as clean as possible.
After I took the picture I actually did the same thing, blew it off with air and used kero and my el cheapo gerni. Come up a treat! I figured that the gearbox will be open. I'll try undoing the stand and see if it comes off. Thanks
Hi, progress but slow. Made it so I can turn by hand to get at bolts on steering clutches. I cant budge the steering arms so I am guessing I have to pull it apart.
Always interesting to see how others tackle these PIA tasks. I had limited facilities so put the blade on a length of steel for easy sliding and then jacked the grousers with a hi-lift jack. Lifting it up and using a ratchet strap would have to be easier!
Yes, I set mine up to do what you did, but had a beer and sat and looked at it sorted this way out. The trick is the car Jack's holding it up aswell. There is a scissor jack on the inside aswell. Although I dont want to get a flat tyre in both my cars at the moment!! Although I understand you had to take your rippers off which would not help.
I took my whole ripper assembly off, dumped it in a trailer and sent it off for someone with a seriously large welder to fix up the various cracks. Bit of a bonus from the job as I wouldn't have taken it off just to be welded. I'd have done it myself in situ.
I actually broke track on both sides of my Allis Master pins were trash and damn near to fell out as it does need rails Once off sprockets and blocked up was easy
I went on a holiday for a month, came back put dozer back together enough to drive it and took it down the paddock, as I was driving I held one steering lever back and jabbed the brake, after awhile it started steering!! Did the same to the other side and she turns both ways now! I'm excited!!
Did the power assist on the steering lever work as it should?
I think so, it still needs to be worked. The levers still pull back to far. Hasn't got much leverage yet but they work. Have to use the brakes aswell. I didn't want to use it to much as I haven't checked the final drive oil. Tomorrow's job.
My levers pull pretty much as far back as they'll go. If they're not hitting the seat, or ruining your chances of having a son to pass the machine on to, I wouldn't stress. The lever action should be effortless. I had an issue with mine, that every time I left it a while, the power assist didn't work. Eventually I went through the multitude of pipe connections and replaced all the copper washers, which fixed the problem. They always say " replace the copper washers", but did I listen?!
Oh, I think I've replaced a lot of them because they fell underneath when I was disconnecting them! I'll check it out tomorrow. I want to do all the oils and then use it as much as I can to free it up more. Does yours steer without using brakes? This is the first old dozer I've driven!
The clutch disconnects the track. On easy going mine will sort of head towards the left, if the left clutch is disengaged. Down hill it'll head to the right. If it's pushing a load on the right side of the blade, it'll most likely sit and pathetically spin the RH track. I find for definite and predictable steering, the brake needs to be used in conjunction with the clutch. Also from experience, using the left clutch and the right brake is seriously counter productive!
Well, I gave it a bit of a work out yesterday. Advice given to me is that the clutch adjustment will move in ward as the clutches wear. Is this from your experience? Right now the clutches are adjusted all the way out ward to touch the cam on the engagement arm. The rhs one sometimes needs a screw driver jammed in so it touches the cam to operate. My understanding is that it should wear and eventually touch. LHS clutch works well. I can hear the rear Hydraulic work but it doesnt touch the clutch arm. I hope this makes sense! I did some research on the dozer and it did have brand new clutches installed a few years ago. But was left to seize. I will get some pictures if that helps.
Jamming a screw driver in doesn't sound right! There's a pair of nuts that adjust the lever. Loosen off the outer nut. When the cam is against the follower, there should be 1 mm clearance from the inner nut to the lever. This translates to about 50 mm free travel at the lever hand grip. This free travel reduces gradually as the clutches wear. I've got sintered plates in mine and haven't touched that adjustment in years, so am struggling to remember any more detail. My brakes need adjustment though, so I'll be in there shortly.
Mine is adjusted as far as it can go but doesnt touch the cam, so that is why I have to put something between it and the follower. I've been told as it is new clutches it should wear till it is touching..I'm not sure...kind of makes sense. It is steering though so is working. The lhs is really good now and seems to be getting better...I'm just going to use it and see how I go. Some work done today.
I had a problem the second time I did my clutches in that the centre clutch hub was sitting too far onto the shaft. It's a taper fit but you do it up very tight. I suspect that over the years the hub has incrementally stretched. The issue was that when the clutch released, it was possible for the inside clutch plate to come out of the brake drum and lose the spline alignment. I was able to do that within the normal range of adjustment. My solution was to put a spacer between the brake drum and the plate it bolts to. This moved the brake drum inwards and solved the problem. My concern is that if you are having to put a screw driver in there, you must be moving the inner plate of the clutch much further inwards than was ever intended. I would be taking the inspection cover off the rear of the machine and having a really good squint in there, just to see what is going on. There could be all sorts of things but you don't want to drop the clutch plates out of the drum.
I had a look but nothing looks out of place. It is getting heaps better at turning with less brake pressure. I probably overstated screw driver, I have a bit of steel probably 2 mm thick wedged in it. The other side doesnt have anything but the adjustment is as far as it goes outwards on both sides. My understanding is that when they wear you have to move the adjustment inwards to give you more clearance with the cams. I'm going to keep an eye on it and keep operating. When I first operated it was a good leg work out steering with the brakes but now it is just a slight tap on them and the clutches engage.
Hello All Does anyone have any experience with removing the wet clutch. We have one that has a broken hose from the pump to the clutch which has caused excessive damage to the clutch but we can't work out how the clutch is removed from the machine. We have a manual for the dry clutch but not the wet clutch. I am hoping the motor does not have to come out. Regards Phil
Glad to hear it all looks OK. Sounds as though it's settling down. There's a whole bunch of plates making up the clutch pack. When you pull the lever, you take the pressure off the pack and allow it to slip. Much the same as a car clutch, but with more plates. As the pack gets thinner, due to wear, the adjustment moves. Gradually you lose free travel in the clutch levers. If not adjusted, it'd come up against the cam and you'd start running the thrust bearing all the time. Eventually the pack would start to slip. Basically, you keep moving the adjustment inwards to maintain 50 mm free travel at the lever ends and you won't go too far wrong. The brakes don't interact with the clutch. They simply restrain the track that the clutch has released from driving. If the brakes are a work out, it means the clutch isn't disengaging fully. From what you are saying, it seems likely that the steel clutch plates are rusted. This has caused some expansion of the clutch, along with grabbing. If this is the case, you are totally correct; best thing to do is to use it and polish those plates up! I reckon you'll be adjusting the levers fairly frequently for a while and then it'll settle down.
Phil_C, Iam not sure that the 70ci had a wet master clutch, nutwood will be able to verify. Our AT7C had an oil clutch which we were able to remove through the opening above the clutch. We also removed the flywheel through the same opening to replace the starter ring gear.
Hello Queenslander. I am not real sure about the model or the year it was built. I can't find any identifying numbers on it. We cannot get the clutch disconnected from the engine in order to lift it out. There does not appear to be enough distance from the clutch to the gearbox. Does anyone have a manual for the wet clutch? Regards Phil
Iam sure that either GW Tractors in Brisbane or Sth. Burnett Tractor Parts near Kingaroy would copy the appropriate pages for you. Where abouts in OZ are you Phil?
I think the manual we have came from GW Tractors. The dozer is my brothers and he ordered the book based on the info given at the time of purchase but turned out to be wrong when we delved into the clutch area. I am in the Tweed area in northern NSW.
If you post some photos we might be able to identify it for you. From memory, the id plate should have been on the firewall somewhere.
I have two manuals and both are for dry clutch. I have a vague recollection of talking to someone who had a machine with a wet clutch but that's about it. Be interesting to put together a spread sheet of all the different models and what varies between them. Tricky though. My dozer was assembled from several others, which is why I have two manuals. To fix something, I first have to identify it!
I think you're correct. A look at the South Burnett web site brought up this: "In the late 1960’s the 70CI models in Australia had a name change to AT7 (Angle Tilt). Apart from the upgraded track rollers and grease pump up and track adjusters as against spanner adjustment on the 70CI, and better sealing of final drives and as well as oil type master clutch on the later AT7’s there were not many other changes."
Hello All Above are the pictures of the dozer. There are guards over the track adjusters but they do appear to have an access hole for a grease gun so I assume they are hydraulic. It also has an angle and tilt blade so I am guessing it is a AT7 model although the model plate has 70CI 56497 604 but who knows if the firewall is original. In the third picture of the clutch area that is in partial disassembly, we need to get part 2 out which slides back and forth on a splined shaft but is too long to fit out through the gap. Do we need to remove the housing that is noted as part 1 or is there another way to get the clutch out? Regards Phil
I can't help with this one. Hopefully some one else will be able to, but however it resolves, please post the solution to help the next person in the same dilemma.
You definitely have an AT7C Phil. It’s been over 30 years since we had our clutch out, but the spacer and clutch both come that opening, no need to remove the housing. The toothed ring is for adjustment, may have to back it right off. I do remember it as being a straightforward job and not encountering any major hassles. Give Rick at GW tractors a call, he will be only too happy to copy some pages or offer advice.
I had another look at the machine today and on the fan side of the bell housing on both the left and right side of the engine are two access holes. I am thinking that we need to get to some bolts on the flywheel through one of these holes. My brother is going to ring GW tractors tomorrow and see if he can get some advice. Thanks for the help.
Hi all, Cousin has a Fiat 70CI on plate but AT7 on the paintwork. Dozer pushes ok cold but once warm loses drive from the master clutch. Have a photo of the clutch with the covers off. We put a adjustment tool in the hole at the back to adjust the clutch. The tool would only turn the ring gear about 1/4 inch and then jams. The movement is quite free through that range. We suspect it is jamming. You can see two bolts in the first image. One on the side I think locks the tool in, is that correct? Second one on the back, we don’t know what it is for. Does it lock the adjusting ring gear? Second picture is looking into the hole that the special tool engages. There doesn’t appear to be a receptacle for the dowel pin on the tool, nor is there a spring that pushes in that the manual describes. Folks are we doing something wrong here? Appreciate any help advice please. cheers Paul Mack
To follow up on my post here is a photo of the makers plate. Paul Mack[/QUOTE]
It’s been many years since we owned an AT7C, but from memory on our tractor at least, after inserting the tool you had to press it inwards against a spring loaded detent to release the locking mechanism. Note the hole on the handle of the tool to attach a cord so as not to lose it down in the bowels of the machine.
Queenslander, Thank you for the reply. Yes what you describe is our understanding as well and accords with the maintenance manual. My cousin had another look today and found the spring but in a different position to that in the photo above. Our understanding is there are three holes on the back of the clutch cover and the spring lock has been aligned with the incorrect hole. Hence why we couldn’t adjust the clutch with the tool.
So you were able to adjust it in the end? My recollection is that it was a fairly easy job.. the worst part was gaining access because the batteries had been relocated over the cover and had to be removed first.
No mate because the spring lock isn’t aligned with the hole the tool goes into. It appears the clutch was replaced at sometime and incorrectly assembled
Success! We adjusted the clutch with two screw drivers. One bloke on the right keeping pressure on the spring and disc while the other moved the ring clockwise 17 teeth. A quick check and the clutch lever throws over now and locks in and needs 20 kg of force to disengage. Dozer went really well after the adjustment and pushed and ripped all day. Cousin is a very happy camper.
Hey fellas, New to this forum, and thought it would be a great place to search for tips and info. I have been reading through these pages trying to find some advice on how to adjust the brakes on a 70ci. Steering clutches working fine, as in they are good for slight turn adjustments, and the dozer stops when they are used together. Right brake is ok in forward motion, left is horrible. Seems like it bottoms out before engaging. In reverse, they both work great. Does this sound strange? I haven't checked yet but suspect that the brakes are inside the two plates on the back of the vehicle. Does anybody here know how to adjust them? Cheers, Ted.
As I’ve mentioned above, it’s been many years since I’ve been near one of these. But the brakes are easy to adjust. You need to remove the odd shaped plates on top of the steering clutch housing….just behind where your heels would rest on the floor. Screw up the nut under there until the pedal comes up to around 2 inches free play. These old girls have a dry back end, at least it should be dry, and brake linings and clutch plates only have a limited lifetime.
Hey Queenslander, thanks for that. Sounds real easy. My left pedal nearly goes to the floor, so hopefully there is still enough brake there to adjust. Onya mate.
No worries, just be sure to let us know how you get on.
Yes mate, will do. Won't be until Saturday week as I will be working away until then. Thanks again.
Hi Queenslander, I finally got up the back to the old girl (very wet with over 300mm of rain since I posted here) and took the plate off. This is the plate directly under where the brake lever pivots on the spline. It has a 1 1/4" nut, which I managed to get a socket on using a breaker bar, and it won't shift. I didn't try an extension on the bar, as I didn't want to bugger something. Fair bit of grease in there. Do you think that it may need some extra grunt, as in a piece of pipe over the end of the bar? Would that hurt? It is a long nut, as in twice the length of what would seem normal. Thanks, Ted.
Sounds like you have the right nut. Try backing it off to see if it moves freely that way. Unfortunately, it may be that the band is so worn that it has run out of adjustment. Either South Burnett Tractor Parts near Kingaroy or GW Tractors at Slacks CK. would likely have a sevice service manual for sale.
Thanks very much for that mate. I'll try to budge it again on the weekend. If that doesn't work, I will get onto one of those blokes. Cheers, Ted.
Did you get it sorted Ted? I've got manuals stashed away and will be getting back to making 2 AD7's out of three shortly so will be back on here a bit (and make some YouTube vids of doing it) Haha - last time I put a dog trap out I caught my own blue dog
Hi Jeembawb, no I still haven't got it sorted. I have been using it as is, but I have had to put any bigger jobs on the back burner until after the eldest daughters wedding in mid October. Lots of building work to do as she is getting married on our farm. Would there be any chance of you scanning the manual pages for brake replacement, and maybe emailing it to me? Don't mean to be a PITA......but if you could find the time it would be much appreciated. One of the S-I-L's mates is a diesel fitter and said he would help, but he has never worked on anything so old. Ha ha, catching your own dog is a trick I've known of a few blokes to do that. At least you can trap a dog. Lucky bugger to have three AT7's at your disposal. That will keep you busy for a while. Cheers, Ted.
Will do Ted - just had a quick look and it doesn't seem like I have scanned the hard copies yet so will dig them out on the weekend and find what you need. I'll have them scanned by this time next week (I need to force deadlines on myself to get things done ) I can't remember way back through this thread if someone talked about brakes so much, but I know nutwood and a few others went into a lot of detail about steering clutches with a lot of pictures which may be helpful seeing as the brakes are right there too
You sir, are a bloody champion. I've had a look through this thread from front to back, and cannot find anything specifically dealing with brakes. As far as I know, they are accessed through the two plates on the back end. Probably an easy job, for someone who has does it a few times. Thanks again Jeembawb. My email address is [email protected] Cheers, Ted.
Yes, you can split the bands and remove the bottom half through the the rear plates. Top half has to come out through the plate on the top, so may need to remove fuel tank and seat etc. Nothing too complicated…just takes a bit of time.
OK thanks Queenslander. Looks like I will have to work the old girl for a few hours first and empty the tank a little.
Had to scape a bit of cockie sh1&% off the old books and will see how many pages I can fit here on one post - just the stuff about brakes from the Instruction manual, the Service manual & the Parts manual. Will have to do it in a few posts (maybe not the best way of doing it but at least it's here for others' reference ) Have fun
Part 2 Brakes from Service Manual
Part 3 Extra info for Brakes from Service Manual
Part 4 - Parts Manual diagrams
Part 5 - Parts Manual part numbers All posted now Have Fun
Thankyou so much Jeembawb. Great idea uploading them to the forum. As you said, there for all to see, Cheers, Ted.
Hi, Anyone know of a mobile repair man to work on an old 70CI for the Central West of NSW (Oberon) area?
Hi, Anyone know of a mobile repair man to work on an old 70CI in the Central West of NSW (Oberon) area?
I hope that somebody can help you Phillip. Those blokes with the know how on these old machines are probably mostly retired by now.
Geez, it seems like I only get a few days work done with the little AT7 and another problem arises. Now I seem to have lost power to the RHS drive. Not completely, as after trying it a few times whilst pushing fallen trees, it works intermittently,...somewhat, a little. Not sure if that makes sense but it is difficult to explain. Anyway, how does the drive actually work on these things? Are they a fluid drive? Could there be a blockage? Thanks, Ted.
Hi Ted - Nope, no fluid drive in the AT7 rear end. The drive goes from a pretty standard countershaft-type transmission, to a bevel gear and pinion underneath the seat area - which changes the drive through 90° to a cross-shaft, which drives a set of RHS and LHS steering clutches. The drive then goes from the steering clutches, directly to a pinion in the final drive housing, which turns a big bull gear, which is on the same shaft as the sprocket. This makes the sprocket turn, to drive the track. The problem is almost certainly in the RHS steering clutch. This is a multiple-plate clutch, and when the clutch plates are worn or out of adjustment, they will slip - thus delivering intermittent power to the track. First off, I would ensure the steering clutches are in proper adjustment. This adjustment is usually outlined in the operators manual, and it usually involves adjusting the steering lever linkages via threads on the rods that disengage the clutches, to ensure that there is a certain amount of free play in the levers before they start to disengage the steering clutches. If proper adjustment fails to fix the problem, then you're looking at steering clutch overhaul and clutch plate replacement. As you could imagine, this is fairly major surgery, and involves a lot of disassembly. Cheers, Ron.
Unfortunately, these tractors have a habit of stripping steering clutch plates. I don’t recall there being any adjustment other than ensuring that the levers are not being obstructed by dirt/twigs at floor level. There is a valve that can be removed to isolate the steering clutch hyd. system to verify that it is not the cause of your problem.
Hi Ron, thankyou very much for the detailed reply to my question. I am happy to hear that it is most likely the clutches slipping, as it definitely does not seem that it is a mechanical issue, as in some part in the driveline physically broken. It is an intermittent thing. Hence why I thought that there was maybe a fluid issue. Obviously I will have to lift the floor plate to inspect the adjustment on the shafts (or lack thereof)? I did tighten up the track on each side the other day, at least that was a simple operation. 5 minutes a side.
Ted, the steering clutches on the Fiat 70CI appear to be operated via a lever-activated hydraulic system, for initial actuation. There's a master and slave cylinder like a vehicle clutch, which will actuate the steering clutch yoke or collar, to produce clutch disengagement, via another linkage arrangement that's connected to the slave cylinder. In that linkage arrangement, there should be an adjusting arrangement of some kind - typically, a threaded stud with a locknut. This mechanism is normally under an inspection plate on top of the steering clutch housing. You may need to get someone else to operate the steering lever to see what happens during steering clutch disengagement and engagement, and to see what needs to be adjusted.
Not the news that you want to hear Ted, but now that I’ve had time to think about it, Iam certain that there is no adjustment to allow for wear of the steering clutches. Other than the couple of checks that I mentioned above, it is most likely that the clutches have either stripped all the teeth off the plates or are badly contaminated with oil and will have to come out. Fairly common with these tractors..Nutwood has discussed the issue on page 3 of this thread. The check valve that I mentioned is No. 17 on page 98 of the service manual that Jeembawb posted above.
Thanks fellas, some conflicting information there, to my mind anyways. I have a bloke who is the friends of the son in law who said that he will come and have a look at it for me in the new year. He is a diesel fitter and has spent years working on newer machines. Hopefully he can get his head around this old girl. In the meantime I had better try walking it back to the shed and get the gerni onto it. It is covered in caked on and dried mud from working during our wet winter. In all, it sounds like it is going to cost me money which I don't have just yet, after my daughters wedding in October. This may have to wait. Bugger. Thanks again OzDozer and Queenslander. Also to you Jeembawb for posting the manual pics. Have a Merry Christmas.
No worries, if you still have my number get your friend to give me a call, I might be able to point him in the right direction. Season’s greetings to you and yours as well.
I just had a look for your number, which I thought was on my desk here somewhere? No Joy. Would you please pass it on again? Cheers, Ted.
If you could text it through to me and I will save it in my phone. Cheers, Ted.
I’ll send you a PM right now. + text as well.
Thanks heaps.
Good grief. Two years since I was last posted. Where did it go?! I have a small problem. I appear to have broken a head stud which is a problem I've heard these engines are prone to. I believe Jeembawb had to fix his and the experience left him traumatised. I'd greatly appreciate any advice and tips on this one. I've two manuals and they don't touch on the subject.
Hello all. Are there any clutch gurus that may know the issue I have with my right hand steering clutch. I have a Fiat AT7. And when I pull the right hand steering clutch in it sort of doesn’t work. I can still press the brake and turn but sometimes it really loads up the engine. The left hand steering clutch is fine. But when I pull both steering clutches in at the same time both tracks come to a complete stop. If I release the left hand clutch both tracks start back up.
My D47U had an issue much the same as you describe , it was lose crown wheel carrier bearings . What was happening was the crown wheel was pushing its self away from the pinion , only a fraction but enough .
These tractors are notorious for stripping the teeth off the fibrous clutch plates, but your symptoms don’t quite add up to that. What happens say, if you put it up against a big tree in low gear, do both tracks spin?
I had the chance to go out to the farm today. It didn’t stop raining so I was a bit limited on time . What I noticed was when the left steering clutch is pulled in I can feel the lever go easy as the hydraulics kick in. But when I pull the right lever it does not. It just gets harder.
Hi Raza, I haven't been on here for ages, but just having a quick look this morning for info for rear drive oil filler placement. Saw your post. I only yesterday finished putting my AD7 back together and getting it running. New steering clutch packs, brakes, bearings etc. So all of mine is brand new but similar symtoms to yours. I have a feeling that mine has something to do with the hydraulics which help with the release of the steering clutches. The pipes where they split has a ball bearing which can move across either way I think to restrict flow to whichever side its required. Maybe I didn't put it back together correctly? If anyone else knows better, please say so. Cheers, Ted.