Hi, I am a new member here, and recently bought my first ever bulldozer, a Fiat Allis 14C. I'm having problems with low transmission oil pressure. I have pulled the pressure regulator apart, and it looks as though the piston has been put in backwards (the relief holes are closest to the spring?) Could anyone please tell me if this is correct, and also the correct way to re-set the spring tension? Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you. I look forward to meeting a few members here
Low Transmission Oil Pressure in general... Hmmm...I am going to expand my original question a little in the hope that someone here can point me in the right direction. :Banghead The transmission oil pump is working fine, it has been pulled apart and checked. What do you think I should look at next to solve this problem?
My memory of the 14c is that a valve used to stick closed or fail to open suficently, Also Check the grade of oil in transmission. I think you wil find that the Transmission is ok However does it push ok or lacking in power/Grunt The NZ Forest Serrvice in Rotorua had a few from memory they had both 10c and 14c You never know they may have a contact that could help you. further, They were a good lively machine :Banghead:Banghead:bash
Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions. I am pretty sure the oil is correct, as the mechanic/husband followed the manual and knows about this sort of thing. I will pass on your info re: sticky valve. I'll let you know what he says- perhaps we may ask you more if you don't mind? We have been trying to chat to people familiar with this model here in NZ, or who have a manual, but it has been dragging on a bit. It is hard to pester people when you are asking for their help! That is one of the reasons that I signed up here... and I am so glad I did!!!
Hi thanks Ipnt65, I was starting to wonder if there is a valve stuck open and dumping oil pressure as I have pulled the main pressure regulator apart and everything appears O.K. I've tried different spring tensions but no change. Oil is a mono 30 grade oil as per opperators manual. The spool valves for the forward, reverse and the 3 speeds does leak oil out of the seals where the shafts go in, but I was going to look at them at a later date but maybe I'll have to look sooner? The machine seems to perform O.K. has plenty of push, and I have even managed to spin the tracks on firm ground, it shuttles forward to reverse in about 1/2 a second which to me seems O.K. But it takes about 1/2 an hour to warm up before you can move it,you can encourage it to move earlier if you run at 1/2 throttle and shuttle forward/reverse for a bit and then it will move in about 10 minutes. I sort of suspect there's not a major problem but it would be nice to sort it out. Many thanks.
Hi Again i was thinking is the 14 a FULL Power shift thru torque convertor OR power shift type gear change lever and it has a clutch i Cant recall now how it worked The 10c had a problem when you were dozing down a steep hill the tranmission would delay to long before machine would reverse. the problem there was valves sticking when they were tested at standing they were ideal but put the nose down hill pressure dropped there were only 2 that had that problem i left nz before problem was resolved but i do know that they found it was valves both were working in very steep country one was up back of Matahina area doing Logging and the other was up at Waihau Bay on East Coast doing general cotracting work on farms etc. will see if i can locate a manual for either machine I haven't had much to do with dozers for a few years, thats what happens when one retires you also forget things
hi Again again,Have you checked to see if hoses are in good condition periodicly, the hoses on a Wabco Grader I had the interior of the hoses separated this of course blocked most of oil get to the transmission yet the pressures were all ways good when they were checked it had only a few hundred hours on clock when this occured. So as a suggestion cxheck interior of hoses someone may hve replaced a hose that is not compatable with the presures or even the non compatable with the oil i
I know nothing about a 14C, just wondering if it has a converter driven charge pump that is fed by hose from tranny sump. Maybe hose or elbow connections are allowing air into charge pump suction line causing difficulty to draw oil. And is there a strainer in suction line that's maybe clogged?
Good morning All, Yes the 14 I have has full power shift and torque converter (built about 1980). Interesting you said about the sticky valves when on a steep slope, I was backing up the other day and it would shuttle forward so by screwing sideways was enough to engage forward and away I went, it was petty steep only just backed up. Some of the hose's were not in good condition on the outside so have been replaced. The T/C pump's hose's are O.K. as I've had the pump apart and checked the pressure line and replaced the intake hose when I cleaned the filters etc. Yes Willie59 the pump is charge from the trany sump via the intake filter and hose, but I have just remembered there is a pressure return line form the regulator back to the pump intake and the seals there might not be so good as they are only a couple of fiber washers of dubious quality. Ipnt65, I happen the be in South Canterbury even though the dozer came from Taupo so am not familar with dealers or machanics up there, but was trying to remeber if Cable-Price were the agents for Fiat-Aliis or if it was someone else? Thanks for your help guy's it gives me more channels to follow. Would by running the trans oil pressure low cause much if any damage? Thanks once again Nelson.
Hi Animal. Yes Cable-Price were the agents, but have long since abandoned Fiat Allis. If you are close to one of there dealers mite be worth asking if there is any older personnel there that may have been around in the days of the 10C and 14C, I,m fairly sure also that the NZFS bought a few of these machines when they came out. Cheers Merv
Hi Again. I think it would be worth trying the new company that have started up inNz few years agoall I know that Bob Mcfarlane who used to Be NZ manager for Cable price is Manager of this new company as far as i knbow they sell Hitachi gear or You may think about calling theFormer Manager of cable price Rotorua His name is John Clayton i guess he is still around although he would be in his seventies His address is Sophia St Rotorua hge may be able to puit you in touch with former cPD Mechanics Tell him Les Paton said to call {he can be bit short at times but he a great bloke} I am sure if any one can help you either of these 2 blokes could regards lpnt65
Hi, just a quick update on the dozer. We very much suspect an air leak in a hose causing the line to suck air. Currently trying to find the leak, and also to find a picture of the hydraulic system from a manual. Thanks for the names and contacts, Les and Merv, too. All your help is very much appreciated. Will try and keep you posted with our progress, and hopefully some good results to share -Mrs Animal (hence short on detailed explanation of leak etc)
Very Brief Update: Himself found a hole in a short piece of hose where oil could get out yesterday. He has replaced that length and we hope that will be problem solved. Fingers crossed...
Animal update Animal update. Evening All, yes, were to now? The only thing that seems possitive is that the symptoms seem consistent. We still have low pressure, no change there, and we do have air in the oil, but after the pump. I've had the pump out and all the suction line including the filter housing on the trans, reassembled it with new "O" rings, gaskets etc. Checked the scavenger pump and line and strainer, O.K. now. interestingly I'm finding little faults here and there but nothing to solve the problem. I don't think who ever worked on this machine was particularly fastidious. In the beginning the charge pump use to flood the torque converter so at least it doesn't do that now. I've cleaned the heat exchanger thinking that was not flowing oil. I've had the bottom off the control valves to see if I could find something but other than an "O" ring that wasn't right all else seem O.K. What I have got is small oil leaks on the seals for the control shafts on the valve head plus leaks on the input and output shaft for the torq/convert and trans, are these a problem? I'm starting to scratch my head now! Is it possible for air to get into the system via the control valve? A struck valve would expain low pressure but air? Thats why I haven't opened it up yet but maybe that's tomorrows job. Les I haven't managed to get hold of John yet but will keep trying. Many thanks guy's. Nelson.
Animal, I have a 14C, but luckily your particular problem is one I've never had. My transmission woes involve overheating but that's another story. I do have a service manual with a good schematic diagram of the transmission hydraulic system if you're still looking for one. Cheers, Greg
Oh yes PLEASE!!! I will send you our email via private message and maybe you could send it to us? We have spoken to so many peolpe who just can't remember because it has been so long since they worked on these machines, or else the person who knows is away on holiday/vacation, or we just get the answer machine, or they have a manual *somewhere* but can't find it. The diagram may be just the ticket
H i I know Gus in Nelson up the road abit he may be able to help cause he owned a couple of 14's his phone no is 03 5423862 Cheers
Hi All, another newbie from the colonies, have been reading and enjoying HEF for past 6 months, excellent site. Reading this thread has made me join up, as I was an apprentice diesel mechanic at Cable Price when these were brand new. Didn't do big time on machinery, mainly truck side, but would like to help if possible. Not 100% sure on posting rules, but if you can message me Animal, I can forward names and contacts for some people in Canterbury that may be able to help, including an operator in North Canterbury who still has his original 14C with in excess of 30,000 hours on, last I heard about him. You may have already talked to some of these people, just don't want to put names over web. Remember one of the nut twisting rules was "fixing it is easy, locating the problem is the hard part"! Good luck, keep the old FA moving.
LK from "Shakey City", eh? It has been a rough ride since September, hasn't it? Thank you so much for your offer of help. Queenslander sent us a diagram which is fabulous, but contacts are always welcome. The fella in N Cant could be particularly good. I can't private message you (not sure why), perhaps you could private message me? It may be that it can't be done until you have more posts or something, I'm not sure. Thanks again for your offer Welcome to HEF
Once LK2628 in no longer a Probationary Member, then they will have access to other forum features such as Private Messaging.
Hi LK2628 With a name like that would you know Gerald Stanley He sold Benz at Cable price way back
Greetings all, thanks Willie59, I shall have to get cracking with the typing and get past the Probationary stage! Willd8r, you are right on the mark, Gerald must have bent your ear on a few occasions if you recognise that designation!These days we are in the same office, not at Cable Price now, but he is still selling, talking and breathing the 3 pointed star! One of our industries true ledgends over here. He was the Service Manager when I started. Can I ask your connection? Animal, we are getting over it all, won't wish an earthquake on anyone after this, it would be easier to start with a bare block of land to rebuild, than go through the hassle of demolition, repair, rebuild! Shaking continues, but if it doesn't break something, it doesn't really count anymore Good news is that it has brought every make, model, year and size of earthmoving iron and road transport into the city, some fine machinery at work and alot of good guys and companies putting a big effort into our place. Thanks to you all. Don't think there are too many cities using a Hitachi UH801 long reach excavator (not an 081)in the streets to do building demolition? (L&M Minings old one I think) Hope you did not have anyone directly affected by any of the big shakes, we have been lucky so far, you can replace buildings, people are not so easy. We'll get the post count up, then see what we can do to get in touch with some help with the 14. Cheers.
Animal, I emailed you the the transmission section from the service manual,however it was a big file. Let me know if you haven't recieved it and I'll send it again in smaller files. LK2628, I could really use some advice from your contacts as well. I have a powershift 14 C with about 10000 hrs on it that is overheating.This has been a steadily worsening thing , not something that just happened overnight. Usually both the motor and transmission heat up together. Once it gets hot, backing off or changing speeds won't cool it down, you have to pull up and throw it in neutral. Although the motor is a little tired, Iam pretty sure it isn't the problem, it has a new radiator, water pump and recoed fuel pump. Today was a cold day (for Queensland) and the tranny went to the red whilst the motor stayed cool, 85-90 c The tractor performs faultlessly otherwise,will always spins the tracks in first. The pressure guage reads 1500 kpa regardless of engine revs and only flickers when changing speeds or passing through neutral. I suspect the transmission needs an overhaul but I would like to get a little more advice before comitting to that. Cheers, Greg
Queenslander, I have printed off your post, will talk to a couple of local guys that I hope can remember days inside these beasties, I will come back with some leads if possible. One thought, is the transmission dipstick correctly marked for oil level? Have seen it before, even to truck components, where they have be incorrectly filled/overfilled with oil, or the dipstick has been re-marked incorrectly? End result is same, weather it has tracks or wheels, to much heat created! Suggest dropping oil and refill with specified quantity if you have manuals to refer to. That it has been steadily getting worse may rule this out, unless it it's dragging oil from the hydraulic system? Sorry, not familar enough with them to know where the two systems cross, probably at converter? Agree about engine, they were a good unit, would look elsewhere first. Animal, got your PM, will reply over weekend. Willd8r, did Gus in Nelson run his 14's on logging? The Nelson area got the last brand new one delivered here before Cables pulled the plug on Fiat Allis as far as I know. Cheers.
Hi Queenslander, thanks for your message, I have sent you an email RE: the overheating. I wonder if it would be worth your while contacting Allis Dozer & Equipment in Tamworth, NSW (02)6762 2944 They are one of the places we have touched base with, and although we have had no reply yet, perhaps they could advise you? To everyone else, have checked more valves and 'stuff' (yes this is Mrs Animal) but no joy yet. Hey, did you see the photo of our gorgeous machine in the other thread?!?
gidday fellows , can`t help with the oil pressour problem but i was wondering if you could clear one thing up for me i was on the understanding that these dozers had a hyd clutch instead of a torque converter in front of the powershift trans which was a manual shift high - low lever and a 2 speed forward - reverse power shift lever the reason i ask is because when driving these dozers you can stall the motor and if it was a torque converter , that would be impossible
greeniron, Fiat used this system on many of their dozers and loaders, I think they called it Idrovert, it offered a combination of both direct drive and powershift and I believe it worked very well. However later tractors also came with the option of torque converter+powershift. What experience have you had with the master clutch version? Cheers, Greg
Thanks LK2628, much appreciated.
As for steep slopes, some machines have a recomended over fill in the tranny for operation on steep slopes, Cat & Hanomag were two that come to mind, mainly to avoid loss of trans/clutch press which can cause loss of drive or depending on what make; the brakes come on. Are u sure the gauge is working properly, not telling lies by any chance, and if it takes a long time to move after starting I would think it might be sucking air somewhere, could be an O ring some where on the suction side. Cheers RDG.
Giday team, another big day in shakey city, all that lovely mud and silt has come up through the roads, gardens, peoples houses, again! Looks like we are back to square one, very disappointing to get workers back to start recovery all over again, but we didn't loose anyone this time, some good news. Still moving now as I type! Queenslander, we agree with RDG about the trans possibily being overfilled to suit terrrain, but that this will also cause overheating if not required. Likewise, check for suction leaks, and that the pick-up screens are clean. Apparently over here, the radiators were re-cored with round tubes, the original angled tubes were more of a dirt trap and the core could not be cleaned out, the round tubes made this job easier and more effective. Is the oil cooler on the engine? Also agree about temp gauge, electrics have never been an Italian strong point in my experience, is it possible to check temp another way, does it smell hot/oil discolouring? My man doubts it is the trans as such, but did not get time to get into it, shall follow up some more. Good luck.
LK2628, We were dismayed to here of your latest shake over there,it must be extremely unnerving to have that threat hanging over you constantly. Hopefully everything will settle back into place shortly. When I first bought the tractor I was told to check the transmission level with warm oil and engine running,some years later I managed to find an operators manual which said to check it with warm oil and engine stopped. Which means it was probably overfilled initially, but the new level had no effect on the temp. situation either. At various times, due to some leak or other, I've been forced to run the tractor with low oil level, barely touching the end of the dipstik, with no noticible difference in temp. Can't be 100% sure about the trans temp gauge but during normal weather conditions,20-30c, it goes to the red and takes the engine to boiling point . It does have an oil cooler but I haven't had it apart, my reasoning being that there is plenty of heat being transferred so it is probably working OK.Does this make sense? I recently replaced the scavenge/steering clutch pump, it was pumping transmission oil into the bevel gear compartment, and cleaned/replaced all the filters and screens etc. at the same time. Could it be possible for the converter to cause temp. problems? Cheers, Greg
Greetings Queenslander, Are you sure it is not a crook temp Gauge on your !4 C, you may be able to rig up another gauge tro check Just a thought, i have had it happen on my Wabco Grader
mr & mrs Animal how are your endeavours going to get F/A 14 up and going {Maybe the latest shake may help r u any where near christchurch} I was in Whakatane years ago when i felt my first ever earthquake it is unsettling when you see Pine trees leaning over one way then going other direction on next shake.
Yeah Ipnt65, it is a physical type gauge, not an electrical one, so it would be easy to bring home and check against my wifes' cooking thermometer eh?
Hi Greeniron. they had 2options on Transmission one had torque convertor, the other had manual with schuttle Shift lever looked like power shift lever
Hi guys, problem not yet solved, but still working on it. At one point Mr Animal found a small bit of blocked hose *somewhere* Being unable to blow it clean with compressed air he opted to replace it. He discovered that the blockage was actually a piece of WIRE that some bright spark must have pushed up the hose to clean it, and broke it off inside. Unbelievable. Anyway, we have had FANTASTIC help & support from Queenslander, who has taken a lot of time to send us bits of his manual. We can't thank him enough. Also LK2628 who gave us a number of contacts. Yesterday we spoke to a mechanic who has worked on these machines (at last!) He has suggested we look at the valve block assembly where the gearbox valves are (I think I have that correct) So that is the plan now.
Animal, In your PM you mentioned that you have ordered O rings. In the Fiat parts book, all (most) O ring numbers end with a 0, which will get you the standard black variety. With my supplier at least, if you substitute the 0 for a 1 , they will supply the brown high temp. ones, much better suited to these applications. Greg
Good advice, thanks
update Good evening All, hopefully tonight will be better than last! O.K. as Rose said it looks as though the trans pump is worn. I've sent it off to be recond, so we'll see what they say? I had spoken to a chap down in Invercargill last week ( old Fiat-Allis machanic) who suggested(after giving him the symptoms) to pull the gearbox control valve apart and look for possible oil dumping in the retarder valves. I found lots of gunge, worn "O" rings and blocked up orifices but no it didn't solve the problem. So the last thing to do was pull the pump back out. Last time I had it apart I didn't have the spec sheet that Greg has been so kind to send over, so this time I was able to measure it and find that it was worn. interestingly there was not a lot of ware marks on the pump and it had been apart before, hence the reason I thought it had been recond when they did the trans. Ipnt65, the front carrier rollers, I will repair them but they weren't on the priority list. Three out of four had damage to them. When I had the right hand track frame out I rebuilt the mounting points but wasn't planning to do the other side until I pull the track frame on that in the summer. I wondered if the pedestals didn't get knocked off by logs or something. Interesting if any of the guy's working with them in the forest service had any similar problems? D6Merv, I can't tell if this 14 is ex Forest Service as it's had the cowling over the dash replaced, I remember the I.D. plates that the FS used as I use to work for them as a culler. This machine has had a winch on it at some stage. Oh well I'll let you know what the results are on the pump when I speak to them next week and we'll see if we've succeeded. Queenslander, just for your info I had the heat exchanger apart and the coolant pipes are very close together and it wouldn't take much filth to clog up the bottom half which would reduce the cooling. Plus the "O" rings I've used are Nitrile. Thanks very much to all of you for all your help. Nelson
Good evening All, sorry not much has been said lately as I've been working to pay for "animal". I sent the trans pump to a hydraulic specialist who had a quick look and confermed it was stuffed, so then started the look for a replacement. Second hand ones are a bit like hens teeth, Luckily I've found "Maintrac" in Westport who import Fiat-allis parts from Italy who said yes I can get replacement parts to repear the old one or buy a new pump for not much more than the parts. So for $1800NZ I can have one landed here next week. Easy really. When I get and put it in I'll let you know the results. Speak to you soon, Nelson.
One of the probs with FA's in the bush was there use of fine threaded bolts [plastic bolts as Gus called them] Gus used to tap them out with a coarse thread and all was good. I remember his rollers being knocked off with logs etc. I owned a FA 8 once it was a good machine Cheers
Interesting, when I renewed the bottom rollers quite a few of the 16mm fine threaded bolts had either stripped or I shore them off when trying to remove them, so for those I retapped them out to 18mm fine thread and it was like night/day when retightening them. In future everything will be 18mm where space allows. With Gus conferming he had knocked off his top rollers with logs I'd say that's what happened to mine. With the pedestals being on the outside of the track frame, as opposed to the inside like CAT that doesn't suprise me.
Success at last! The new pump arrived last week but had to wait until I had time to put it in. So at the weekend I spent the time to do it properly, adjusted the regulator to where I thought it should be and then kicked it into life. Everything seemed to be right, prop shaft seemed to be spinning properly and you could drive it straight away without having to wait until it warmed up, but still only about 30psi on the gauge! So I adjusted the regulator but nothing changed, so I rechecked the gauge and it works up to 120psi good as gold so I start thinking about where it's pick up point is and the fact that this gauge has a range from 0 to 300psi. The pick up point is on the trans side of the heat exchanger and obviously had been there from new(I had renewed the pipe when I first got it as the old one had rusted out). This is the low pressure side of the torque converter running at only 28psi as this is what the lubrication pressure relief valve is set for. In the infromation that Greg sent over there is a Hydraulic circult diagram and on it, it shows the pressure gauge pick up point is on the main pressure feed to the gearbox valve block, so I changed my pick up to the back of the pressure regulator and low and behold I had heaps of pressure so a bit of fine tuneing on the regulator and we get it to where it should be. Even though the pressure gauge is a original Fiat-Allis and looks as if it's always been there I suspect it has been replaced with one off another machine with different pick up point. Anyway all is good now and a big thanks to every one for all your help. Now I'll start on the carrier rollers! I hope Greg you managed to sort your over heating problem out? Nelson.
Good to hear you have sorted the problems out, you should have a good reliable machine now. going to Nz in NOV wont get as far south as your area regards good wishes
New here. Couldn't start a new thread but was reading this one to figure out the problem with my Fiat Allis 14C transmission. A good working machine but parked for several months. Started up OK but as soon as it was put in gear, it started dumping oil. The machine did not move. Have a parts book from Korea so unit names may be different. Hydraulic transmission control is the unit I'm looking at. At the bottom of this unit there are two valves called distributor valves. The valve casing has holes like vent holes (threaded though). Oil gets dumped out of these holes. In forward it dumps out of one hole and the other hole in reverse. Nothing is shown connected to these holes in the parts book and there are no fallen off parts in the belly plate. Any thoughts on the problem will be much appreciated.
Nelson, Pleased to see you've sorted out your tranny problems, I'ld be interested to hear how your temp. gauge reacts if you jerk some solid work into it when the weather eventually warms up. I haven't progressed much further with my temp. problem,but after considering some advice from LK2628's contacts ,we seem to be leaning towards the torque converter. We've had our 14 for 17 years now,mostly working in timber, and I find it difficult to comprehend that anyone could tear off a carrier roller , let alone two. What are your track adjusters like? Could it be possible that someone has removed the rollers to take up some slack in the tracks ? Rod Ram , There are a couple of small, spring loaded pistons at the bottom of the distributor valve that have caused me some grief over the years, with serious oil leaks, but they are sealed with O-rings and held in place with circlips. Perhaps you could quote some part numbers of the bits that your oil leak is coming from. I personally haven't heard of a Korean connection with the 14 before, but would be interested in learning more. I know some 16B Series (Allis Chalmers ) were manufactured there after the war. Cheers, Greg
Greg Thanks. Seems like we are talking about the same thing. I'll get you part numbers when I get back to the office. I've had the lower valves apart. The spring loaded pistons link up to the two lower valves where the o rings go. At the end of the lower valves are the circlips. This is where the holes are. The lower valves seem to be some sort of relief valve. Could be wrong. My last attempt was to try to remove the whole unit. I'm looking for a stuck valve somewhere. Removed the bolts, hose and links from the shift lever but couldn't get the part off. Parts book seemed to show a couple of hoses connected internally. Is there some trick to removing this part? A friend of mine had imported this machine along with some other stuff from Korea. The tag has KHIC on it. You mentioned earlier in this thread that you had some schematics for the transmission system. May I ask for these. Had a heating problem on this machine as well. It was in the thermostat line. We had noticed low circulation in the radiator. After a lot of time spent on the water pump, we looked deeper and found that the thermostat had been removed and the line that heats up the water was plugged with a timber plug. Plugging the line properly solved the heating problem. Thanks Rod
Part numbers - Lower valve has a piston 586171. Is this the piston you mentioned. If so, my above post about the piston is in error. The body in which this piston sits has plugs at the bottom 11903111. Top of the body has the two holes. This body is 79006596. This is what I'm assuming is a relief valve. The main body that I'm trying to remove next is 79006440. This is where I thought the piston and spring are.
Rod, Well at least we are on the same page as far as part numbers go. Lower valve ,(586171),is the one that was giving me trouble, it would leak from the piston itself, not the port above, but never enough to prevent the machine from operating. Changing O-rings would only give tempory relief,in the end I replaced both the pistons and they have been fine since. Send me a PM with your E-mail address and I can send you the diagram. While you have your parts book out , could you give me the number of the line you plugged to solve your heating problem please? Cheers, Greg
Greg Figured out my problem but still wouldn't mind the schematics. Sent you a PM. Those ports are test ports in think. They are supposed to be plugged. Anyway, the first time I plugged them I lost pressure. The filter got clogged. Silly me, instead of looking for the obvious, I took the whole valve body off. Bit of detective work showed that there are other such ports sealed off with something like solder. Looks like the handy work of the guy who used a timber plug in water system. Plugging those ports and cleaning the filter got the machine running again. On to your problem. The line is 4647253. I made a blank with flat iron and bolted it in where the gasket goes on the underside of the thermostat body. The logic of the system is that the waterpump will keep circulating water through the engine block until it gets hot enough to operate the thermostat. So this line is connected back to the water pump. When the water is hot, the thermostat closes this line off and sends water to the radiator. From the top of the thermostat the hose links back to the top of the radiator. The whole assembly is on the left side of the machine. It never gets cold here so plugging the line does not affect my operation in any way. Hope this helps. Regards Rod
Rod, I had visually checked the thermostats at some stage in the past,noticing they had rub marks on them, and assuming them to be OK. After your post., I pulled them again and tested them properly against a thermometer and found one was only partially opening/closing. Also, the seats whear the thermostats seal off the bypass line, are badly pitted and eroded and obviously havn't sealed properly for years. I blocked off the by pass line, as you suggested, certain that it would be the answer to my prayers, but unfortunately the problem persists. It seems to have helped the engine temp a bit , but given enough time, the transmission eventually drags it up. Back to the drawing board Greg
Greg Looks like a bigger job ahead of you. I'd try an oil change before going deeper. Maybe pop the plug that gave me trouble and see what kind of oil shoots out. I saw some nasty stuff in mine. Rod
Remember when I said I've never heard of a Korean connection with the 14C ? Next thing this machine is for sale here, apparantly ex US Army in Korea.
Greg Good morning, I owned both Allis Chalmers and Fiat Aliss Dozers and for a number of years I sold Them NZ and Australia None of them were manufactured in Korea There were some manufactured in South America but not to many of them got to Australia or N ew Zealand just thought i would put in my 20 cents worth Les
Hi Greg, sorry I haven't been back lately, we had a dump of snow so have been a bit busy. Just as well the weather gods waited until I got the 14 going. Just for your info I've been working it pushing willows out and the highest temp I've got on the trans is 70 degree ( I put a new VDO gauge and it's marked off in degrees). I had also put in two new termostats for the engine when I got it as there were none but they open too early at 66 degrees but it's interesting to note that the trans and engine temps stay about even. my limited understanding of torque converters is that when they start to get worn they start to slip so hence the oil temp climbs the same as when you work them hard on hard pushing. When they are really stuffed even just moving the machine with no load the temp will climb. There's quite bad rust around the mounting points for the pedersals for the carrier rollers and I sort of suspect that is some of the reason why the carrier rollers have gone.
Hi q,lander,Garrie here, not part of your input but I have Fiat 70ci approx 66 model,this has 1 top roller for the tracks, I have a full manual but nowhere does it mention how to adjust the tracks.Even being older than the two top roller type in your pics I was hoping you may know where the track adjustment is for mine. (grease adjustment or mechanical? Any clues appreciated. Garrie Gin-Gin Qld.
Hi Garrie, I will have another attempt at this it has disapeared 3 times so 4th lucky . If you are near Gympie/r Nambour/ Bundaberg there were places in each of these town you could conact the nambour place it was going north out of town on your left at top of hill he was a helpful chap (if he is still there). in Gympie on the right going north there was a tractor sales and service there old bloke and his sons { again if he is still there} again i forget there name s but had a great deal to do with them few years back....PS my wife reckons they wouldbe dead by now.... if thats the case they will have stopped giving advice on crawler tractors, Oh i see you are at Gin Gin go into bundy the chap there had the John deere agency {there were 2 brothers they would be dead) the busines was sold to a chap who worked for them his name was Ivan he would be able give you the info you want.. this out fit was sub agent for Tutts
Thanks for the info Garrie.
Garrie, Not sure about the 70ci, but we had an AT7c,which had hydraulic track adjusters. Should be a small inspection plate forward of the carrier roller, under which are two bolt heads. Top one has a grease nipple in the centre to pump up the track, bottom one is a plug to release it. Cheers, Greg
Greg thanks for the input, Im gasfitting in Brisbane at the moment but will check under the plate when i get home in a couple of weeks.Garrie
Hi Mr & Mrs Animal, Wondering how you are progressing with FA14 is it usable yet, Guess with snow and sheep andcattle you havent had any time to get into it I would be pleased to hear from you any time Regardas Lesp
For those of you chasing a worksop manual, try the link below . I have bought parts from them before and found them very good to deal with. http://http://www.tractorspareparts...page=product_info&cPath=78_79&products_id=331 Cheers, Greg http://www.tractorspareparts.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_79&products_id=331
Hi Lpnt65, Yes everthings been going well once I put the new pump in and sorted the pressure gauge pick up point. I've done near 150 hours since then and no problems at all. The more I drive it the more impressed I am, it's been a long time since I drove a D6 but I don't recall them being this user freindly. Just while I think of it, when I'm on very step ground with the right hand side and the nose pointing slightly down hill I some times run out of steering clutch or brake pressure, I assume this is because of low oil at the pick up, I was going to top up the oil in the rear end and see if that helps. Any comments on that? Thanks once again for all your help, I couldn't have have got to where I did with out your help. Nelson.
Thats Great i am glad it is at last being used, WE ourselves had earlier model Alliss Chalmers Hd21ep and that machine did 22000hrs and only had i engine o/h the drive train at 20000 hrs the brother thought He better have a look see if it would need any work all they did was put new seals & gaskets in it and put back together , Your problem could be not picking up the oil ,we had 10c that when working in very steep conditions was the same but we just slightly over filled it, it was not perfect but was better I think more better to stay away from those places unless you can go straight down , Or then again you could continue but get your self some extara life insurance!!! nah Just Joking stay safe take care LES
Queenslander I have been pondering your problem but unfortunately don't have an easy answer. Some thoughts though that may help or not. Some things that cause heat in a powershift transmission. Normal operation, torque convertors create heat, that is their nature but this is obviously not your problem. High/Low oil level; symptoms include heat, lack of drive; you have discounted this. Worn or excessive clearance in convertor pump or turbine impellor or stator; symptoms include heat,lack of drive; you have discounted this Worn convertor charge pump; symptoms include heat, lack of drive, low system pressure; you have discounted this. Faulty relief or modulation valve; smptoms include heat, noise, fluctuating pressure, lack of drive, jerky shifts; you have discounted this. Worn clutch plates/discs; symptoms include heat, lack of drive; you have discounted this Bad bearings or other rotating parts; symptoms include heat, noise, lack of drive, metal in filters/oil; you have disconted this Blocked/restricted filters;symptoms include heat,noise,lack of drive,low pressure; you have discounted this. Blocked/restricted oil cooler/heat exchanger; symptoms include fluctuating pressure,heat and heat. Oil coolers can be tricky devils. A blockage of the oil side is rare but can happen with bits of o ring or my favourite, gobs of silicone from some repair or other. This can act like an orifice or worse a series of orifices ? orifi ? more than one. These are commonly used in hydraulics to deliver a pressure drop , a by-product of which is heat. A blockage/restriction on the coolant side (which is more common ) can cause odd stuff with heat transfer. It can cause the cooler to act more like a stove, ie boiling a pot of water on an electric element(conduction) rather than like a hot water system which transfers heat from one liquid to another (convection). Given time the heat WILL transfer but it's a matter of whether it's too much heat being generated or not enough cooling happening. I have not begun to mention evrything that CAN go wrong but although I am a newbie to this forum, I have been watching for a while and thre is plenty of knowledgeable members that can and will help. Maybe this will get the diagnostic juices flowing. Cheers.
Sorry, forgot to get to my main point which is that I would personally not do a convertor/tranny overhaul (for overheating reasons)without also pulling the cooler. You may be right and are up for a rebuild but pull the cooler you may get luckey. What do you all think?
Spanner, I really appreciate the time you've taken to analyze and respond to my transmission (or whatever the **** it is) problem. You're right, of course, to suggest that I should eliminate the smaller potential causes before tackeling the bigger ones. I've ordered seals, etc, so hope to pull the heat exchanger down in the next week or two. Are there any other symptoms a worn torque converter would present, other than excessive heat and lack of drive? Cheers, Greg
Hi Greg, it will be interesting to see if you find any rubbish in the heat exchanger. When I flushed ours, I got lots of old sediment from the oil, probability dating back to 2000BC, so could be the same problem for yours. Nelson.
In my experience, lack of drive, metal in oil or burnt oil are the first to present. Other things are possible such as a bad overrunning clutch (sprag) but best to rule out simpler stuff first. I once had a D9L operator claim his tranny/convertor was shot but it turned out he had a front idler locked solid and the dozer was battling just to move itself. Sad but true. May pay to check that the machine moves freely and something is not binding up. Animal, looks like you have your troubles sorted.
Spanner, It looks like your advice may be paying dividends already. I pulled the transmission cooler off this afternoon, and it's not very pretty,maybe up to 30% of the coolant tubes clogged. The engine oil cooler is in slightly better order, but not by much. Some tubes I cleared with compressed air, but others are much more tightly packed. What would you suggest? A new transmission cooler would cost $3100 and the engine cooler $1800. Cheers, Greg
Queenslander, That's some serious damage (to the bank balance) . You can only be guided by some common sense and gut instinct here. As a fitter, my obvious answer is go new, fit and forget but it's not me that has to pony up. What I would do is this. Get some household calcium/lime/rust dissolver, put it in a metal container (cut off 20/60 litre drum) throw in the coolers and go do something else for a day or two. I think CAT make a product just for this purpose if you could be bothered. Get a softish piece of wire (unfluxed brazing rod is good) and set to gently poke,shake,jiggle,blow or whatever else at the worst area you can see. Once you get a tube or two clear have a good look down there and see what sort of condition the tubes are in without the crap. If they appear to very pitted/thin or seriously damaged you are probably wasting your time . Sometimes the fact that the tube is blocked is the only reason you aren't getting water in oil or oil in water. If they look good it may be worth the effort to salvage the coolers. You will know when you look, if you have to work hard to convince yourself that all will be well you should probably be tossing them. If you can, make some blanking plates and air pressure test the coolant side of the coolers to eliminate leaks (coolant in oil = trouble. You only need to go to about 15psi and nomore than 2 or3 psi more than radiator cap is rated at or you will make a serious bang. I have cleaned/reused bad coolers in the past although only to be able to use the machine until the new ones arrive. Let us know what you find.
Hi Greg, Spanner has a good point on the condition of the tubes, if they are getting thin it's only a matter of time. With that said the ones in my cooler are copper so if they are thin it could be worth finding someone to rebuild it for you with new tubes? Quiet possibly cheaper than new. It might be possible to use liquid nitrogen to clean them although I'm not sure how far into the tubes it will get? At least it wouldn't damage them. Nelson.
I've made some more calls today and found reconditioned, tested coolers for $1000 each, with the old ones returned. They're from a reputable parts supplier that I deal with all the time, so I think that's pretty good value. I must say, I was kinda relieved to see them in such poor shape, maybe THIS is the answer to my prayers. Thanks to all for the support. Cheers, Greg
Queenslander Reco is the way to go for sure.
Hi Greg, Yes definitely the way to go, some one else has had to do the testing and mucking around. It will will interesting to see if that solves the problem which I sort of suspect it will. Good Luck, Nelson.
You might want to try and give the system a flush before you put it back together. About all you can do is put a hose in various openings while a helper blocks off others with rags. May help remove some more chunky bits. You may want to try a cooling system cleaner and then run a coolant/ conditioner. We run Castrol Coolplus diluted about 50/50. Operators tend to top up with water so gets pretty diluted between services but it keeps the systems in pretty good order.
Spanner, What would be some of the pros and cons of fitting an overflow tank to the radiator to help prevent the dilution problem?. I haven't had a proper look, but probably the easiest place to mount one would be in the space between the radiator and the front guard, not the most hospitable place for a plastic tank to reside. Also,it may have to be somewhat lower than the top tank of the radiator. Cheers, Greg
Hi Greg, For your interest I've put a over flow tank on our 14 because I was sick off it blowing coolant out. As it turns out the rad cap I was useing only had 10BLs pressure relief. The tank (milk bottle)I put in is only a temp one until I fine a proper one. In the past when I've done them I've found that the seal on the over flow pipe from the rad top tank to the over flow tank has to be good as it is under suction as well as blow pressure. The rad cap has to have a return valve so it can suck back to the header tank,not sure what the original is like as I'm waiting for mine to arrive. And lastly I've found that if you can get the catch tank close to the height of the top tank it won't have far to suck coolant back up. My catch tank (milk bottle) is sitting on the cross brace for the blade rams, just so happens to be about the top tank height. I am in the process of trying to find a better suited catch tank but time is always an issue. It does appear to work although a slightly high rad cap pressure would be better. Food for thought, Nelson.
Queenslander An overflow tank is a good idea. Animal has made some good points though. Everything needs to be well sealed, the longer the hose the more critical. Do you have a genuine radiator cap? I have been caught out with over the counter caps. There is sometimes a mm or two difference in the spring length so even though it is marked at say 13 psi in reality it is releasing at maybe 9 or ten which causes you to go chasing a cooling system problem that doesn't exist while assuming the brand new cap is good. As Animal says you will need a double acting cap to run an overflow bottle. Generic automotive bottles are mostly crap. A good trick is to stick yor head in the engine bay of evry earthmoving machine you come accross and when you see one that suits order one from that machines dealer. I found one in an ONAN generator once that was the bees knees, very thick plastic, squareish and with moulded in 6mm mounting nuts. May be expensive though.
Animal, What's the pressure rating of the cap you are running? The service manual doesn't mention it specifically, only that the system is to be tested to 14psi, so I assume 13 should do the job. Cheers, Greg
Greg, sorry I'm a bit slow getting back to you, I've away from the computer. The cap I got was an off the shelf one with 10psi rating, the one that came with the machine when I got it was utterly stufted so was throwen away. I have ordered an origenal that should be here in the next day or two so should be able to tell you what the pressure rating is then and if it's got a return valve on it. I asked the agent if he could tell me the rating but said there was nothing written in the parts book. The one I've got is at 10psi and is just not quite strong enough as it will blow off a little bit when you work it hard. When I got that cap I took a guess at the pressure rating so it doesn't suprise me that it's wrong. I would say that around the 12 to 13 mark wouldn't be far away. Thinking about the catch tanks, we use to make them out of alloy for the rally cars so we could fit them into tight spaces out of the way, the avantage of using alloy was it's a bit stronger than plastic and transfers heat away, but in a dozer application you could use stainless as you don't need to worry about weight and it's a bit easier to work with. We use to put a pipe on the bottom for the suction hose so it wouldn't move and a push-on cap for the top that allowed it to breath. Regards Nelson.
Well, Ive had the new oil coolers on for awhile now, but havn't had a chance to give the tractor a lot of work. But things are looking up, It's pretty hard to get the trans. temp. much past half way on the guage now. Engine temp. will still get a little high when worked hard enough. The flexible shroud between the rad. and cowling is pretty ordinary, pieces torn off,so it may be recirculating some warm air through the radiator. Other benifits are a slight increase in oil pressure and less oil consumption,maybe due to cooler engine oil temp. All in all, a much more usable machine. Cheers, Greg
Hi Greg, It sounds like you've sorted the problem, which is great. I would say the shroud is the remaining problem. I've had exprience where people have removed shrouds thinking they'll "improve the air flow" only to find matters worst. I've had a dead computer for the last three weeks, so sorry for the late reply. Nelson.
Fiat Allis 14E Hi there, I am new to the forum so can't enter my own post. This thread is the closest I could find to my situation. I am from Melbourne Australia and I am having trouble with a Fiat Allis 14E which has a shuttle shift transmission. The dozer operates fine going forward but in reverse it keeps jumping out of gear. I have had the control valve for the gear selector on the dash apart, and replaced the o rings. I have also had the control valve on the transmission apart and all parts seem to move freely. The transmission was rebuilt 350hours ago and the dozer has done 6000 hrs so still has life left in it. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ralphie
Hi Ralphie, I'm affraid I know nothing about the 14E but I'm sure someone like Spanner or Queenslander does, so hopefully they get a notice and come to your aid. HEF helped me out so I'm sure it will you as well. Nelson.
Ralphie, Like Animal, I know nothing of the 14E either, but I imagine the transmission wouldn't be to far removed from the C series. By shuttle shift, do you mean power shift with torque convertor? When it jumps out of gear does it throw the selector out as well? I assume you've eliminated any problems with external linkages etc. Does it do it in all three speeds and under differing workloads? Sorry about all the questions, but the more infomation you can provide the better. Cheers, Greg
Fiat Allis 14e Thanks Animal and Greg for your response. Yes the transmission is power shift with torque converter but unlike the 14c it has no external linkage and is all hydraulically operated. Yes it throws the selector lever as well when it jumps out of gear and it will do it in all ranges while the dozer is both moving and stationary. Proir to replacing the o rings in the selector control valve it wouldn't go into reverse at all, now it will go into reverse but then jumps out. Thanks again Ralphie
Ralphie, Sounds like a control issue rather than the transmission itself doesn't it? Maybe a faulty detent or something. What happens if you hold the selector in place? Cheers, Greg
Fiat Allis 14e Gday Greg Hopefully its a control issue rather than a transmission problem. The way the selector lever works it can't be held in place, it has to be let go of so it can click into gear. The problem is only in reverse, it is fine in forward, sometimes it will drive one meter and other times 20 meters before it jumps out, and as the dozer warms up it seems to jump out in a shorter time. Thanks again for your time and advice Ralphie
Hi, I am having difficulty putting the sleeves back into my HD 21b dozer. It has a Allis Chalmers 6138t motor and appears to be getting stuck on the last o ring(black buna n). I purchased the o rings locally from the o ring shop and am not sure if they have given me the correct one. The two red silicone rings go in no problems but when it gets to the black one it stops and therefore the sleeves dont go all the way into the block. Thanks Ian
Sleeve's G'day Ian You could put the sleeves in the freezer for a few hours or overnight, then put some lube inside the block and on the O rings and try installing them again. Wet sleeves should slip in fairly easily so it sounds like your last O ring could be the wrong size. Hope you get it sorted. Cheers Ralphie
akpilot, First thing to do is check the control valves where the linkages from the shifter connect, could be some dirt or c..p fouling things,I've had that happen before. Next, I would check the filters for the converter and transmission, actually washable metal screens. The book says the correct oil is 30w for ambient temps above 32f and 10w for below. Should be checked when warm with engine stopped. Might pay to replace the standard pressure gauge with a good after market one to see what you've got there, should be 1500kpa from memory. Hope this helps, Greg
Hi Akpilot, I hope you've managed to find this as I tried to post on the white smoke thread but it got lost. Anyway Queenslander is correct , the trans oil is a 30w mono grade so there is a possiblity that is causing the slippage but I suspect it's the clutch pack plates being worn to the point that they let the pistons over extend and the oil by-passes the seals. It's normal for the oil pressure to drop momentary as you shift from one gear to the next but it quickly gets back up to pressure. There should also be a trans oil pressure light that comes on at a lower pressure(10psi) useally on start up only. Interested to see what you find. Nelson.