Hello i am new to this forum but have come here for some advice. I have a Fiat Allis 645 B here at my scrap yard and having some issue with it and hoping its something i may just be missing. I replaced the engine 6 or 7 years ago replacing its original engine with same model engine. My issue is you have to keep the loader at a high idle or it stalls out. After stalling it you can crank and crank and crank and it wont fire unless you give it some assistance. Once you give it that lil bit of help it fires right up and will stay running and do whatever as long as the idle doesn't drop down to low. I originally though maybe it was losing fuel prime. i have removed the hand primer some years ago as they kept wearing the rubber o ring out and it was losing fuel prime that way. After i removed that year ago it was fine for many years. Until this more recent issue. I have replaced fuel line to the injection pump and it seemed to help slightly but didn't solve the issue. I have also added a small electric fuel pump to try and keep pressure up to the injection pump when this issue first started and it helped a lot but didn't solve it 100% Yesterday when the fuel tank was low i put a can of sea foam in it and it also seemed to help as after running for awhile after shutting it off it would start back up. But today it will not without assistance. I am hoping some one can help me trouble shoot this so i know whats going on so i don't spend money i don't need to as i really can't afford to have entire fuel system rebuilt at this time. here is some info on fuel injection pump The numbers that i can see on the tag on the pump are as follows > It a Stanadyne under the name it says > DM4629RH3230 > then it says model NO. & R.P.M. > 2963765 and to the right of that number it says 4035827 I really hope someone can help as i would love to be able to use this loader again
Have you tried checking/ setting the timing on the old girl.?? The old Allis girls where know to drink a lot of water and rust thru the years, seein they where work horses.. nobody thought to change the filters and such.. They didn't have the common " flex ring " problems the other roosa masters had, seeing they were DM pumps.. no flex ring.. Personally, I would mark the pump where it sits.. one mark on the block and one on the pump.. right in line w/ each other.. Move the pump one way or the other, about a "dimes" width.. see which way it starts faster.. Without knowing the exact timing *'s I cant be more specific than that.. good luck.. BTW>> DO THIS WHILE THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING>>
do i have to worry about pre detonation of the fuel as i had another loader that got incorrectly timed and the fuel pre detonated and and to be rebuilt cause it burned a hole thru piston and dont want to do that to this loaders by messing with the timing
and would timing also be why i have to keep it at such a hi idle to keep it so it wont stall?
And is their any additional info i can give you so we can find out the timing? Sorry for replying so many timing i just don't see the option to edit my post. I just want to get this loader fixed as i have been stuck using a dresser 515b and it not very well suited for what i need it to do. it doesn't have the weight to lift what i need to and also i am more fond of the Allis steering and operation in general. Not to mention loader has sentimental value to me and grew up learning to use loader in it lol. So if their is any info i may be able to give you just let me know.
Yes the timing could be causing you to have to keep it at high idle to get any power and cause hard starting. You should be able to pin the flywheel at TDC and see the timing marks on the injection pump after you remove the little cover off the side. With the flywheel pinned and the cover off the injector pump, you should see a couple of lines marked on the internals. Just loosen the mounting bolts on the pump(take a chisel and mark the pump and engine like thepumpguysc said for reference marks) and twist the pump one way or the other to line up the marks and re-tighten mounting bolts. It should start and run way better. This is a different style pump, but if you look at the 1:17 mark you'll see those marks that I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3NYl1X6NjY
Its not that i have to keep it at a high idle to get power the high throttle is so it wont stall out as it wont idle at a normal idle speed anymore without stalling out. My worry with not knowing what its suppose to be timed at is pre detonation and blowing the motor. I will take a look at your video link at lunch when i get a moment as i have to head back outback.
if you follow thepumpguy instructions carefully,, you will know when the engine runs better if the swing in both directions don't improve then set back to orginal mark that you put on,,, the start to worry!!! seems like you are spetcking too much,,, if all this is above your get real life help
Reason i am worried is cause the loader i had that had the timing messed with and had pre detonation rans great sounded great until the day it burned a hole thru the pistons about a month after it was rebuilt. so i want to cover all my bases before i go screwing with the timing on this loader. and if i had the option to have someone come look at it i would but money is very thin at the moment so i can't really afford to have someone come out sadly. How would i go about going to find what its timing spec's should be at?
your points are well taken,,,,an old machine with worn gears and parts with orginal factor specs. may not be on target for the engine good luck I will bow out without farther to do
I don't even know what the factory specs should be at and no clue were to look. i think you guys may be onto something with the timing i havent adjusted it but i am wondering now if it has come out of adjustment somehow thats why i would like to know where it would be from factory so i know know a starting point and to know how different its set now from that
Is there an RPM gage on the machine?? How do you know IF its Idling at the right speed?? I'm pretty sure it idles at 800 rpms.. If it keeps dying at idle.. just turn it up.. theres a "low idle" screw.. on the pump.. NOW.. the hard starting is a problem also.. are you holding the throttle WIDE OPEN when you try to start it?? IF NOT>> do it.. I just looked up the parts breakdown for the pump.. theres only 1 idle screw on it.. run it down till you like the idle rpms..
to keep it running and not stall we have a spring holding the throttle open a lil ways to increase it to keep it from stalling out and i don't think the rpm gauge has worked in years. and as for holding throttle open when starting it doesn't help at all and never had to do that before.
Thank you all for the input i am still working on the machine. for the idler you said to adjust could you be more specific where its at? And the hard starting is more of a new problem as before when i was using the machine and it would stall you would just have to crank and crank and crank and it would finaly restart. But now you can crank till the cows come home and it doesnt seem to want to fire without help but once you give it a hand it will fire and aslong as you keep on the throttle i doesnt stall.
Could be the engine is worn out again; low compression would give you all the symptoms you have. There is a service manual exchange on this forum, scroll down until you find it and see if there is a manual for your beast.
i really hope the motor isnt wore out. i mean until 5 to 7 years ago it had its orginal motor in it from factory lol. would mean the new motor i put in didnt last long at all. but i think its to do with timing and or fuel system in general. i just wish i knew someone close to me that could look at it and it wouldnt cost me a arm and a leg. and as for manual i am not seeing what you said to look for but i searched 645b and got some results on here but no manual or anything of that sort sadly.
HeavyEquipmentForums This really should be a sticky at the top of the first page so the one timers can find it....
Thank you very much for the link i appreciate it very much. Also someone told me the following Stanadyne pumps(Roosa Master type) all have issues with the advance mechanism shaft coupler. The originals were fibrous materials breaking down with age, there should be a check ball relief fitting on the top case cover of the pump assembly, where the shut off mechanism works. Remove the fitting from the case cover and inspect for debris inside, can clean it a few times for time working but the pump will need go to a rebuilder to fix it. Not sure what they talking about so if i can get a manual maybe i can figure it out. And thank you all for the help so far
Been awhile since i updated this thread. I am still working on this loader when i get time. Pulled the cover off to try and check timing according the manual and maunal says the gears should have either a little line or a dot. But for the life of me i cannot find either on either of the 2 gears. Does anyone have any ideas?
I just found a service bulletin that states the problem you have.. Shuts off at, or below low idle.. The metering valve sticks in the shut-off position and wont recover from hi to low and shuts off.. It requires a parts change.. your rebuilder will have this service bulletin.. Good luck.
I am still working on this loader. i cannot find a line or a dot that looks to be made for timing. as for the metering valve i am not sure thats is the issue as the loader wont even start on its own right now unless you give it something. and i am pretty sure the motor isnt worn out. I want to get all the timing marks found and such before i pull the pump off the unit to have it rebuilt. is their any tricks i can do to make them stick out? cause so far every thing on gear doesnt look manufactured into it.
just found a link that said Remove the small rectangular window from the side of the pump underneath the shut-off lever with a flat blade screwdriver. Rotate the pump by hand until the rear timing mark lines up with the front timing mark....both marks are in that window. The crank pulley is already at 18 BTDC. Stick on the pump drive gear so it lines up with the 4 bolt holes on the pump. THE GEAR HAS NO MARKS ON IT AND DOESN'T CARE HOW IT GOES ON, OTHER THAT LINE UP WITH THE PUMP BOLT HOLES WHILE PUMP MARKS ARE LINED UP. You are probably on #1 because whomever removed the pump lined up the pump marks before pump removal (like they should have). Rotate the engine backwards a few degrees and then forwards to recheck your work......16 to 18 degrees BTDC is fine. not sure if this pertains to my loader tho
the yellow mark is what i think is tdc or where it was set. as it had a extremely faint white mark their infront of the yellow and same on motor but they don't co enside with anything my book says. then the 2 long scratchs i have no clue what they are but they match up with nothing i can find. thats why i am wondering if what i posted a min ago pertains to my pump aswell. also what compression should the motor have? Before i go sending stuff out to be fixed i want to make sure everything else is up to par so i am not wasting money as i can't really afford this to begin with but i need a loader as my dresser loader is leaking fuel from the pump. Dresser doesn't got the weight to lift either so i would rather fix this loader also i found 2 numbers on the face of the gear 33 but not sure what they mean. Also have the number 4028716 on the back side of the gear
All you had to do is, pull the side window off the pump and line up the lines.. THEN check to see WHERE the timing marks lined up on the engine.. Did you know your start/shut-off solenoid on the pump is 24V..??? Did you even check it?? There is also a manual override rod on the pump for starting.. incase you didn't have 24V.. The 402# is probably the P# of the gear.. IF the 33 is by the teeth on the gear, they probably line up w/ another 33 on the meshing gear.. used on assembly. Like I said in an earlier post>> There is a pump SB that states the EXACT problem w/ no start.. The metering valve gets stuck in the shut-off position. That's not to say your engine compression is any good, seeing you don't know the spec.. anything over 300psi will start a diesel engine.. if it spins fast enough, has air and enough fuel..
I know that now about checking the line in the side window. But everyone kept telling me the gear should have timing marks on it that line up with the other gear. As for the start/shutoff solenoid on the pump 24v not really sure what your talking about and or how that would affect its idle i can understand it affecting the starting. and which rod would be a manual overide? is the solenoid and metering valve the same thing or am i just reading what you said wrong? and i read what you posted before but i am also trying to make sure it was timed correctly before i pull the pump so i know how to get it back into time when i get the pump rebuilt. I am planning to do a compression test to see if they all within the same range of compression. I am doing my best at figuring this and doing what you asked me to check. But you must also understand i have limited funds right now so i can't just go ripping the pump off sendings it out getting it rebuilt and put it back on the machine then find out that wasnt the issue entirely either. I run a scrap yard and scrap is in the crapper right now. so money is very thin so i must spend it wisely
DO NOT TURN THE ENGINE with the pump OFF.!!! The metering vale is inside the pump and tells the pump how much fuel to put in the engine.. The shut-off solenoid just turns the fuel on and off thru an electrical connection thru the top cover of the pump.. On YOUR pump, it also has a rod thru the top cover for a manual override for running.. its about the size of a pencil lead and is bent over on the end, so you can push it in to run and out to stop. All you really needed to do was pull the top cover off your pump, while it was still on the engine, to determine if the metering valve was stuck..
i Have not took the pump off but the gear i have shown is off and motor has been turned but gear was marked against another gear to make sure we didn't loss where it was set.
I will start by saying I am NOT a diesel mechanic so take this with a grain of salt. I WAS an auto tech for 25+ years and have spent the last 15 running a machine shop so I'm familiar with how things work. Since this was working fine after eliminating the leak causing it to lose prime I would not suspect a timing issue. I would check the fuel system integrity from tank to pump. The slightest restriction can cause problems. Make sure the filter is not clogged and blow out the lines. If it has any banjo fittings look inside them and make sure they don't have any crud inside that could prevent the flow of fuel.
Nh575E thats what we thought at first either it was losing prime or had something causing restriction. What we did was eliminate the hand primer that was seprate from the injection pump and we cracked a injector and got it primed that way. It still would start fine for a lil while then give issues again. So we figure the somewhere along the line it was still losing prime but we couldn't find it. So we took a eletronic fuel pump and hooked it up to keep constant fuel up to the injection pump. This seemed to help the starting issue for awhile but it did not solve the easy stalling or low idle issue. and then it start to get progressivly worse. to the point i am at now. Thepumpguysc by the manual override i think i know what your talking about it has a lil L shaped bar which i assume is what your talking about. Here are some pictures of the pump itself.
How about giving it a GOOD power wash and remove the 3 screws that hold on the top cover and have a look.?? You might just find abunch of rust and dirt and a stuck metering valve.. Wont cost you a thing.. Careful not to break the screws..
Okay we are about to pull the top cover like you suggested. What should i look for besides rust. Not sure what i will be looking at. and the manual lever the little L should it be in or pull outward? And how should the inside of the where the metering valve work? move freely or with some pressure? can you describe what i should be looking for pls
Nothing seems to be stuck and doesn't seem to be full of rust either but here are pic's of what it looks like inside
The arm is connected to the metering valve.. just make sure it moves back and forth.
you talking about the big spring one or the thing under it? with a smaller spring?
Small hair like coiled spring.. The MV arm is left of the throttle shaft in your pics.. In your pics, it looks like real fine metal threads, attached to everything?? Take a look at the under side of the top cover.. is the electric solenoid covered in metal?? IF so, stop.. no need to go further.. its not supposed to have any metal in the pump.. It looks to me like something deeper came apart inside the pump..
no the solenoid wasnt covered in anything at all its actualy pretty clean in there. But by looks and sounds of what i have described after checking this is sounds like something came apart inside the pump you say? YAY just what i didn't want to hear lol. But i suppose i would rather the pump then something even more major.
You should really rinse the whole area down before you take apart something liek that
Ya i know. Made the mistake of forgetting even after the pumpguy said to give it a power wash first. I got so much going on here it isnt funny. Kinda stressed at the moment. But i made sure no dirt fell in atleast. I cleaned the top part off really good before i pulled it off so nothing would fall in. But ya i pulled a bone head move and didn't wash it.
Still waiting to do the compression been asking around to see if anyone has one i can barrow but so far no luck.