I just finished a new home project that lasted a year from start to finish. In the end I was required to grade entire 3 acres with new cuts and fills and install driveway parking area. My contract states rough dozer grade. The owner had the surveyor stake out property and appointed him as the final inspector to approve work for final payment. The surveyor just kept adding work to be done made my life miserable. He made me move the entire driveway for 4â€. He was placing a 4’ level on the ground and telling me he should not see any gaps between the level and ground. Mind you this is out in the middle of the yard no driveway or concrete pad just dirt that still needed to be power raked and a yard installed. I put together a punch list with him and the owner after spending twice as long on the job as I should of, and spent one more day completing punch list. When the surveyor came to inspect he started adding more to the punch list. At this point I just told him to f off and said if the owner doesn’t pay I would give it to my attorney. I got my last payment and the surveyor went home. My question is this: is there any thing in writing some were that has it spelled out the difference between rough grade and finish grade beside my contract, like a rule of thumb thing? I thought finish was + or - 1†and rough was + or - 4â€. I just consider this a learning curve but any advise from you guys would be appreciated.
I consider fine grading getting it within an 1" or 2" from perfect, My term of rough grading is getting it roughed in. ground should be half way smooth but far from being mowable by a lawn mower. I would have told him to "F" off too if he put a level down on the ground to see how good it was, That almost impossible to get a yard that smooth with a dozer. Once the grass grows you will never be able to tell it. :my2c
He is a surveryor, not a damn operator. For rough grade, I just run the blade around, clean up the rocks and make it look decent. It is up to the landscapers to finish grade. Sometimes, I will just rough grade with the excavator.
"...Guy with a 4' level on the ground" --That brings back memories... Years ago I was working on a fairly large project for a community group that had the "donated" services of a big city landscape architect - he had me spend a week, or so, on the grounds moving the same dirt 4 or 5 times building berms and hills and getting it smooth enough to meet his picky "specifications"... since I was working by the hour it didn't really matter to me, other than being extremely frustrating, but I felt sorry for the group that was paying the bills... finally, I asked one of the owners why their grounds had to be so perfectly smooth (and I mentioned how much it was costing them) as it was already easily mowable... she said "smooth" really didn't matter to them as they didn't plan to mow it anyway, and they were going to plant native praire grass and wildflowers and let it grow wild. I never saw the architect again after that little chat. "Finish Grade" depends on who is paying the bill in most cases... srs/mn
The more I think about this the more it pisses me off. This job was not by the hour, it was a contract that I signed a year ago. I did so much extra work for free, just trying to be a nice guy. The more I did to try and please the more he asked for. The problem is that it just makes me wonder how much of a ***** I have to be on the next one to protect myself. The surveyor was digging holes (many holes) with a shovel all over the driveway ( a very big driveway) to see if I had a 6" of crusher run and fabric, he was using a tape measure. When he checked grade at grade stick he would use a level and tape measure just to make sure he had exactly the grade. The worst part is when I told the owner that I was leaving and not going to finish if I had to work with the surveyor, he said just do what you think is good and I will pay you the balance, wish I did that before I spent 3 days to try and make the surveyour happy. I would of saved myself alot of time and money. I have never walked away from a job yet so I didn't want to start now. To see that house in my rearview as I drove away was a very happy site.
Kiss butt to make the guy with the check book happy Charge for any work not in contract your already a nice guy and being a nice guy wont pay your truck and machine payments , plus someday some one will try to bargin with you at he end of the job if you charge for extras it wont hurt so much Work with the landsacper or whoever may want to use you again and keep them happy word of mouth is the best advertising try not to tell them to f off hit them in the wallet were it really counts !!! good luck.
rough grade I agree with dirtman2007; rough grade is just that - rough. 1" to 2" is fine grading, for yard work, in my opinion... I used to backdrag the yard, get rid of the rocks, and cover my own track/tire marks, which is a lot more than most of my competition was doing... Some people are just hard to work for. srs/mn
Stupid should hurt Even though you told him to F off, it seems you have alot more paitence than I do, or well more than my dad. Rough grade, as all of you have stated, is ROUGH grade, (close, drainable, and smoothed up a bit), finish is within and inch or two and mowable(on areas that will be mowed and such). A few years ago we installed a road in a sub division, 3rd road that we had done on this project. After we were all done, to gravel grade, the asphalt contractor was over and said we don't even need our prep crew, this is ready for asphalt. Well this was a private individual doing the project, and after completion the township would take it over. There engineer said well we need to check the rock depths. Dad, Tom(from asphalt), myself, Kurt(owner) and two township guys and their engineer started checking depths. On the 3rd such hole, they went down 4 inches and hit SOLID rock. E-man asked, why don't you have 6" of gravel and 8" of breaker rock here? HELLO( my dads expression was somthing else). Long story short, we had used MORE rock then THEY had called for for the entire project and everything was compacted and laid in nice but they still thought they were going to get the upper hand. Well a few more holes into it and is started to rain, on a cold October day, they said lets finish this some other time, Dad and Kurt both said, nope we are going to do it now. By the end they didn't care what rock was cause they were so cold and wet. As it turned out, they paved it and all is still well and its been 6 years ago. Trbo
I fine grade with a dozer, but we have an operator who make the last pass-over with a 120H Motorgrader. We have to use a D3 dozer to get in tight places. Back dragging is the only way I can get within an inch of grade! It depends on the type of material your working with, such as rocky soil, or sandy soil, or even topsoil. There are big difference's!
The engineer side of me says the contract would rule, but it should have a specification to define exactly what "rough grade" and "finish grade" is. If the contract does not have a specification they usually have a clause that says to go by the state department of transportation specs (finish grade typically 1" to 1/2" of design grade, depending on what it is and what state). Lacking a refrence to DOT or other specs, it would be an argument in court. Or better yet, if the engineer thinks it's not good enough, ask the owner - after all, they are the one with the checkbook, and so that makes them the boss. Now the practical side of me says it's just a lawn, as long as reasonably smooth to mow then it's acceptable. The contract should clearly define what work is to be done, and anything above and beond would be an extra. My policy is that I will do anything the engineer/surveyer asks, after they answer my question of "how will you be paying for this". Sometimes I will throw in little things (that don't cost me a lot to do) in to promote a good working relationship with the owner and engineer, but when they start asking for a lot or something that costs me a lot to do, then I have to tell them that it is extra work and I expect it to be paid for as such.
Now I have been through some sXXX by inspectors and the like, but that is absolutely ridiculous! Did this surveyor understand that you were grading dirt not making cabinets? Question - did Barney the Surveyor get to take the bullet out of his pocket - he could have rolled it across the ground to check the % of grade? BTW - I would have told him the same.:thumbsup Chock it up as lesson learned and charge for every overage in future lump sum contracts.
For the size of this project it was ridiculous! This was a house, granted a very big home, but not a road, or interstate. The funny thing is they asked me to quote them a price for installing the lawn. I said that I would get back to them. If they ask again, my price won't be any gift and the contract will the longest I have ever written for a lawn install. Barney the Surveyor won't be included!
You should figure out how much time it took you do what the original contract stated, then add up how much over you were on time and then bill that as an extra. Clearly state the extra on the bill "as per Barney the surveyer". Send one to the owner and one to Barney. You never know, they might pay you. But I would definately talk to the owner and explain the situation.
Jmac, This would be my advice as well (us engineers all think alike... ). Does your contract state what "rough" grade is? If not, probably worth adding. Take care...
Code: Does your contract state what "rough" grade is? If not, probably worth adding. No my contract does not, just says " rough grade". The next one and any after will! By the time I get done putting together a full proof contract it might be 20 pages long.
Rough/fine grading. Hi, JMac. For several years, I levelled house sites with a Cat D5B wide gauge dozer fitted with a 10-foot bull-tilt blade and a rear ripper. Using laser checking with a sensor mounted on the canopy leg (NOT controlling the blade.), I was cutting to +/- 1/2" - 3/4". THAT to me is fine grading with a dozer. If a surveyor or engineer told me that he wanted to see no light under a 4-foot spirit level for rough grading with a dozer, I'd very quickly invite him to show me that he could do it before he asked somebody else to do it. Re anything in writing about the definition of rough or fine grading, for mine, it's an individual situation thing. You need to work out with the client what is an acceptable finish and write it into the contract on a job by job basis. Most of the sub-division work that I have done (I live DownUnder in Australia.) has been cut and fill according to the plan with dozers, scrapers, whatever, leave it so it drains and no substantial windrows, MAYBE a once-over with a grader at the end. Certainly none of this 'no gaps under a spirit level' crap and 'mow-able' doesn't come into it either. It does have to be finished well enough to maintain with a tractor and slasher/brush hog but that's all. Something else that works very well for cleaning up a job site is what we call a spreader bar in a 4-in-1 bucket on a track or 4wd loader. I guess most of your skid-steer loaders have spreader bars of a similar pattern. The ones we have for our loaders are simply 2 x 12-13-foot 6" RHS's about 3 feet apart with 4 x 6" RHS 'spreaders' welded between them and 1/2" bisalloy plate on the bottom for wear plate/cutting edge. They have 2 pick-up lugs welded to the 2 middle 'spreaders' for use when working with the bar and 2 more pick-up lugs welded to the main beams about 3 feet in from one end so that we can pick the spreader bar up end-on and carry it wherever, including on to the float. On the float, we simply put it on the deck and straddle it as we walk forward to wherever the float driver wants us to park the machine. We also use these same spreader bars for trimming house pads with our 943 and 953 track loaders to +/- minus 1/2" - 3/4". If you're interested, I'll dig up a photo or two of of them. Hope this helps.
I own one of these and do install lawns but not for free!.
:Banghead the more you give the more they want theyre never happy . somtimes i just let them here theyer selves
Deas I would like a picture or two of your spreader. Sounds like just what I need to speed things along. No sence reinventing the wheel if you would be kind enough to send a pic or two. Jmac All of my contracts spell out the level of finish. Jobs vary, but a typical homesite would read something like this Pad finish +/- 0.10' Street or driveway finish +/- 0.20' Yard, parkway, or open area finish +/- 0.30' Slopes +/- 0.50' This is adequate in most cases. Sometimes specs call out higher precision, just include it in the price. Good luck
Like this one, or same principal: http://www.earthmoving.com.au/skidlevel.htm I was called to a 4000 m2 site because the grano supervisor was really pissed off with the pad levels done by the loader driver. He took me around the pad showing me where he wanted it re-cut and filled. He had painted the sand with the deviations from level -5 and +5...now he's talking mm which is less than 1/4".......:beatsme I'm not sure what the guy expected but I got in my skid and drove around the pad for about 9 hours trying to look busy...and he was very happy..... (I think it was a mid life crisis) ointhead
Spreader bar photos. Hi, JDOFMEMI. No sooner said than done. In the third photo where the spreader bar is clamped in the 4-in-1 bucket, if you look at where the back of the bucket floor is clamped into the lugs, you may notice a gap between the top of the bucket floor and the up-slope of the lug. That gap should not be there. It took me a little fast talking to convince the owner that the bar should be held firm with NO chance for up-and-down movement. Once I finally convinced him that he was NOT a cross between a 'horizontal social worker' and a computer - a bedroom atletics-indulging know-all - we welded some bar stock into that gap and the bar worked far better. Donchya just hate it when your employees know more than you do? LOL. As mentioned in my earlier post, the main frame is made from 6" RHS with 1/2" bisalloy plate welded to the bottom for wear plate. When I am rebuilding/replacing the wear plates, I only replace the two main beams and then hardface the undersides of the 4 spreaders that run from front to rear and hold the 2 main beams otgether. This means that the undersides of the 2 main beams are a little proud from the spreaders, allowing their cutting edges - the bisalloy wear plate - to get a better bite at the landscape. I also use this spreader bar to strip short grass from sites that are not too uneven for that practice to work, to trim batters and to cut shallow drains around the toes of all cut batters on a house site to facilitate drainage. Roll the bucket right back, place the rear cutting edge of the spreader bar at the toe of the batter, lean on it a little and back up a foot or so and you will have a nice shallow spoon drain. You may have to do this several times in harder ground or even go round and loosen the drains-to-be up with the bucket teeth before removing the loosened material with the spreader bar. We chose to only have 2 main beams and to keep the 'front-to-rear' dimension of the bar down so that we could place it on the deck of the float and walk forward over the top of the bar, straddling it. In photos 1 and 2, you may notice lugs welded on longitudinally at one end. This allows us to carry the spreader bar onto the float in this fashion and also to carry the bar into places where we could not get if the bar was carried across the machine. That bar is 13 feet wide - a pretty good working width for a Cat 943/953 - but a lotta gates ain't that wide and a lotta rows of trees ain't that far apart either. A little note - it does pay to have good 4-in-1 bucket rams to get the best out of these spreader bars as we ALL tend to do a fair of dragging backwards out of corners with them. They also seem to cut better travelling backwards and are certainly more controllable in reverse when cutting heavy. Hope this helps.
Deas Thanks for the pictures. Thats pretty close to what I had pictured, but it is always nice to see the details. That looks like just the ticket to carry with a rubber tire loader to brush out the dozer tracks with on jobs it matters on. I see a project coming for my welder soon. Have a GREAT day! Thanks again
Other uses. Hi, Jerry. Other uses for these spreader bars: You might find it a little hard to believe - I dont' know your 'credit' rating - but a Cat 941 or 953 with a spreader bar like that can walk through a 12-ton load of fine crushed rock road base and pretty much spread it in one pass. A 943 has a little difficulty doing that simply 'cos it doesn't PUSH like the old 941's or the 953's - not enough weight up front. I use mine for all sorts of light work where there is a bit of space to play with or an area to cover. They love road bases and gravels. We also do a lot of 'rumble strips', a small area in the drive way of a new house site, about 12' - 13' square, excavated to about 4" deep and back-filled with 1 1/2" crushed rock aggregate or recycled concrete rubble. The spreader bar does a great job of 'trowelling' the back-fill rubble off. (The purpose of these 'rumble strips', in theory anyway, is to shake any mud, etc., off the tyres before a vehicle leaving the site gets to the roadway. Still seem to get mud on the road, mostly 'cos nobody likes driving on the 'rumble strips'.) They are also great for spreading and cleaning up close to retaining walls and other ocbstacles when using a loader 'cos you can SEE where the end of the bar really is instead of 'guessing' where your bucket is. We also get to do a few clean-ups on new sub-divisions with them 'cos the track loaders don't leave tracks as much as a dozer does. We don't have any 4wd loaders although I sometimes wish we did have about a Cat 950 with 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. If you look closely, you may notice reinforcing strips of 1/2" plate welded to the main members before the lugs are welded on. This is 'cos we only use 1/4" wall RHS for the main beams and the reinforcing plates strengthen that a bit where the strain comes on. The end product is light enough that a 743 Bobcat can use it so long as it doesn't get its nose too much downhill - or try to back up too quick. LOL. Happy welding.