Hello all, I have been reading several threads trying to figure out which skid steer/ctl meets my purpose the best, while retaining its resale value. I want to thank everyone for sharing their experience and knowledge you have been a huge help already. Here is some information about my needs. -I want an enclosed cab machine, temperatures in the Northern prairie go from 110+ to -60. -I plan to plow snow and dig trenches on well site pads around the rigs. -I would like a larger machine 60+ hp that can cut quicker with less relative effort. -I have some acreage with corrals, out buildings, and fences that need repaired or demoed. -This will be a part time job for days off and evenings. -High hours are ok for a nice machine, I won't be using it that hard, but I don't want to break down all the time. -Would like to stay beneath 25k for the machine and attachments. -I may do some dirt work or concrete, but I don't plan on it (other than around the house). -I like the versatility and traction of tracks - resale seems better too. -I am leaning toward the case 440, gehl ctl70, or similar bobcat. Some questions I have: ? Should I look for high flow hydraulics. ? Anyone know of something for sale. ? Are tires that much cheaper to operate. ? What are the most hours you'd consider. Thanks guys I feel alot more confident with the knowledge I've gained. Thanks to the forum for helping me avoid a costly mistake.
Gents, I would also like to ask the forum to recommend their most trusted: -Auger & bits -trencher -snow removal device And if you are aware of a lemon attachment, I would appreciate a heads up. Thank you - Josh
double post
If snow is going to be a big part of what you are doing then stay away from track machines. The reason I say that is you have to get the 'winter' tracks to have any traction and you are giving up major top end speed(unless you can get someone to pay you by the hour...). I have a Case 440S3(cab/heat, two speed, hyd. quick tach, ride control) and it has all the major things I need, air or the high flow would be nice but I can live without air and what I do high flow has never been needed. There is guys that use high flow and need it but starting out it may not be a make or brake for you. I like how much power the 440 has but is also a smaller frame than the big skids so it can fit in spots a little better. I run the VTS track system for the summer and then in the winter I am running oversized truck tires for plowing(gives me more speed and more traction). The VTS isn't perfect but it does so much, it's like steroids for a machine but you could tear powertrain stuff up. I had a Mustang MTL16 and if I would never do snow work it would be okay and for me if Case wasn't an option I would run a Takeuchi(or sister versions -Mustang/Gehl). As for attachments, it all depends what you do. I really don't use my auger very much but it is nice when I do. Pallet forks and bucket for me are on the machine probably 95% of the time. A good grapple is very useful, snow plow or snow pusher as well. Try to find as low of hours as you can, there are so many skids out there you should be able to find something decent.
If your wanting to run a trencher in Western North Dakota, I think you will need high flow and a substantial trencher to be able to get some productivity especially later in the year when the ground is hard. I dont have a trencher so I cant recommend a brand. On the auger, I own a Lowe 1650E. I bought this in 1995 its dug a silly amount of holes in tough conditions and it still works like a champ. I think you could get by with a wheeled machine out there. If you would like to hedge yourself in softer conditions you could put wider tires on your skid steer. I have done this and it works very well. Typically tracked machines dont hold their value as well as their wheeled counter parts, however there is no doubt that tracked machines are more productive in grading, and working in soft conditions. The tracked machines cost more to run per hour than a wheeled machine so you need to make sure the tracked machine is making you more money. If you don't mind a road trip, I will be trading in my 440 as soon as my new machine gets in (should be this week). I have VTS tracks on this machine and I am giving them the tires as well. Its got cab and heat no AC. I worked it in Montana down to minus 43 and it still makes heat. The only issue is that machine does not have high flow. If your interested PM me and I can give you more details.
I see Shane just posted before me but His 440 may be a good setup for you and if it isn't too far try it out?
That 440 seems to be an excellent choice. I want a Gehl ctl70, but my needs dictate a different choice. Wheels it is. The case support is the alot closer. Sounds like a winner. Lowe seems to make a dependable auger. -Why no ac KSSS? -Can I get your phone number pm'd? -What device does everyone like for snow removal? -Anyone know for sure if you want hi-flow hydraulics to turn a trencher in frozen ground?
I planned on just removing the door in the Summer which worked fine and it was another 1000 for the AC. I should have got it on the machine when I ordered it, I would get most all of it back on trade. I have a snow blower and a snow pusher. Unless your doing large commercial lots, I think the oversized buckets have more value. If you go to my website you will see my contact info and pictures of the 440 in picture gallery section as well as sprinkled through out the site.
Found out from a Case dealer that I don't need high flow hydraulics to run a trencher. Only a few things need it. If yours had ac it would be ideal.
My skid doesn't have air either and I wanted it more for resale than really needing it, heat is more importand I think. For me in the summer I am in and out of the skid a lot and rarely spend all day in it so taking the door off works great. I think an angle plow is the best for plowing but it depends what type of plowing you are going to do.
Granted you dont "need" high flow to run a trencher, however to be productive at trenching meaning to do it at such a rate as to make money, I think its pretty important. Typically trenching is priced by the linear foot, so the longer it takes per linear foot, the less your making.
The salesman at the case dealership told me that attachments have different motors for high flow. That it was not "good" for the attachment to run a standard flow motor with high flow hydraulics. That attachments with high flow motors cost over 1000 dollars more than their standard models. Is this good or bad info? I would like to go faster if possible.
I've heard that before on the attachments so it doesn't sound out of line. I was going to upload a picture of my skid set up for plowing but it won't let me. If you were looking for a newer setup let me know, might be upgrading this winter.
No his information is correct. However when you have high flow you also still have regular aux. flow so you can use whatever hyd system is appropriate. If running a trencher is a part of your busines plan to make money with this machine, and given the ground condition out there I think you would want the high flow machine and the trencher. A 440 makes about 22 gpm with aux flow, with high flow you get another 15 gpm or so. Thats a pretty substantial increase. Also if you want to add a snow blower, high flow is mandatory if you running a commercial type blower. I don't want to talk you into a direction that is not in your best interest. If running a trencher is not that important than the high flow hyd system may not be either. However if it is important and your getting paid by the linear foot or by the job, then spend the money on hgh flow and a high flow trencher. Only if your going to be paid by the hour would this not make sense.
I checked with a couple trenching attachment manufacturers, and yes, high flow yields much more torque and will do the same job significantly quicker. Do all Case skid steers with high flow capabilities also offer standard auxiliary hydraulics? I have looked at the 70xt and some older machines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS8iB_wu_VU&feature=related it seems to me this attachment has numerous design flaws.
I am a certified journeyman Case mechanic the case skid steers are good they are very easy to work on and pretty durable i have a 465 with nearly 3000 hrs on it and its still going strong just keep the chain drive maintained and regular maintenance. I live in northern saskatchewan it gets really hot in summer and really cold in winter and the 465 runs like a top thru it all.
yes, they all have standard hyd.
I have found a 2003 70xt with 200 hrs, cab, heat, high flow, foot throttle for 20,000. KSSS I saw on another forum that you owned a 70xt before your 440, do you think the extra investment (probably 4-5k) for a 440 is warranted?
My only issue with the 70XT was the lack of two speed. Its was a big blunder on CASE's part in my view. The control system is better in the 440 than the 70XT. Although many might consider this heresy, I think the 4.5L runs harder than the famed 3.9T as found in the 70XT. I can say that I have never been more happy with a machine after 5 years of ownership than I have with the 440. However the 70XT you found seems to be a rare find. I would seriously consider it. Once you get up and running you can always step up to a 440 or Alpha series. If you have looked around you probably already discovered the other bonus with a CASE skid steer, and that is resale value. If you run the 70Xt for another 6-800 hours and keep it in good condition (I am assuming it must still be like new) that machine will still be worth around 16-17K. Thats a great position to be in. Trade it or sell it outright in a couple years and only lose 3-4K.
Sometimes salesman are too focused on selling to the lowest price point. Meaning they dont want to suggest high flow because it adds another couple K to the price of a machine. Most having never been an owner or operator of an excavation business they cant sometimes see the value of spending more upfront to be more productive which makes more money throughout the ownership of the machine. They dont want to lose a sale to someone else that successfully talks you out of high flow and sells at a lower price point. So when you talk to some of these guys just keep in mind their prospective, the vast majority mean well they just dont have an in-depth understanding of this business in some cases.
How much time will the lack of two speed cost me during snow removal? The trenching shouldn't be slowed too much.
In snow you have to have two speed. The other thing is you need the speed to 'roll' the snow sometimes and a single speed machine can't do that. If you go hourly you wouldn't want two speed but I would bet someone bidding against you will come in with a two speed machine. If you bid per time the two speed allows you to get done quicker. Now to set myself apart from other guys I'm running oversized tires to be even faster. I had a 70XT also and it was a great machine but no two speed, cab and hyd. quick tach was killing me so I traded in.
The two speed in snow removal is pretty important. Some depends on the type of contracts your wanting to go after. Large open lots and you would want two speed. Apartment complex type contracts maybe not as big of a deal (tighter areas,cant go fast running around all the cars). Overall though you never regret that you have two speed. Two speed is a nonissue when trenching or pushing dirt.
so exactly what happens when you people hit an obstruction plowing snow 12 mph with your skid steer? so apparently terex is giving away their skid steers. new rts60 or whatever is 28k at the local dealer all loaded down. similar case would be 34k. is it true that terex skids still have pilot controls? cuz that would be significant.
You want to make sure you have your seat belt on . I hit something once and nearly put my head thorugh the glass. I learned after that, there is a reason they put seatbelts in skid steers.
Seatbelt is your friend...but also try to keep your blade from hitting cracks straight on. I'm rolling more like 15+ mph... As for the Terex, the controls may be nice but the rest of the machine not so much. How do you feel about the Cat control pattern Dave?
Something I should have mentioned before, you have to figure out what will bring more money in. Is the trenching more profitable or plowing? In a perfect world you can find a machine that can cover both.
Finding two speed, with high flow, cab, heat, and maybe A/C in a low hour machine at 25k or under, has proven to be near impossible. (When I put it that way I can understand why, smile) Consequently, I have spent some time thinking about what options are most important to my business, and you guys are suggesting the same thoughts I have been using. The plowing market is not highly competitive in my area, trenching is what I want to do and much higher profitability, I can do smaller lots well enough with one speed. I found a 440 with 970 hours, heat, and high flow that I think I'll move on.
i plan on switching to the cat pattern on the next machine. it is seriously flawed, but im willing to sacrifice for convenience.
If your looking at a newer machine with E/H you can H or ISO. While I am certainly and unapologetically partial to the H pattern, I think it just makes more sense than putting the entire machine movement in one control handle.
ah well i plan on using iso and h about half and half just for the heck of it. h pattern is clearly harder to control than iso when u got e-h.
negative Ghost rider.
What year did Case make the controls changeable? Are all 440s changeable?
I think that is only on the new ones. You could order a Series 3 with pilots in either control pattern but not sure before that?
H pattern only before that. I think they had foot control packages you could get but no ISO with servo controls.
I've been reading this post for a while now and i am confused. Please explain the "H" pattern, is that Case style? Cat controls (which i have both on my machine) is pilot correct? Also, what is the difference between e/h and servo control? I am not totally sure what i have. I have a newer 2009 cat with controls that are a little slow to respond and a 2006 that is much better...... Any idea which is which? I think i know the answer but i would like to know for sure.
ah the good old control confusion. h pattern is case style, and most other brands standard controls as well. pilot controls (normally iso) can be configured this way most of the time if that is what you want. pilot controls can be electric or hydraulic depending on how you define pilot. generally when people say pilot controls they are hydraulic. none of the manufacturers seem to brag about which one they have (besides terex). servo is different than pilot or electric. servo usually is not configured in iso. except the t bar gehls if you wanna call it that. servo, pilot, and electric, to the best of my knowlege are similar in that they all have a hydraulic piston component that is hooked up to the hydro swash plate that controls the swash plate. obviously with manual controls you just have a direct link to the swash plate. with servo you have direct linkage to that piston. with pilot you have more hydraulic circuitry and valving and such at your controls that controls that piston. if you dont have a c series cat, you have hydraulic pilot controls, im not sure why some of them have the delay and some dont if they are both hydraulic. sounds like you might have one c series w electric controls and one hydraulic pilot controlled one. to an extent, on the electric controls they can adjust the response speed at your dealer to get you machine acting more like a hydraulic pilot one. electro hydraulic controls have nothing but wires going from your controls to your controller. it seems you will find most people prefer hydraulic controls. the jcb we had here had hydraulic pilot controls and they were sweet; im not convinced the new electric ones will be as sweet for 2012. the only advantage i see to electric is more control at lower engine rpm, and maybe better cold weather control on startup.
OK, thats what i thought. I have a 2009 246C and the controls are actually worse when it is cold out. I would say they are electrical, i recall seeing someone on here saying they could be adjusted at the dealer. The smoother machine is a 2006 246B, i would guess it is hydraulic... because of the response. I dont think i would buy another electronic controlled machine with given the performance of the newer machine. However, i wouldnt say anything bad about the machine other than that, way more power, comfort, etc. Not trying to steal anyones thread...... but Dave, did you ever buy the infamous JCB???????
u mean to tell me that in 0 degrees F your pilot controls work better than electric? ah, we frantically tried to buy a jcb before the end of the year, but again, they pushed off the release date a couple more months for the 205. maybe we should look into terex even tho they are crap except for their sweet pilot controls. if the case 430 was the same as a case 435 that would be tempting but its not. although i like the quite cab of the jcb, that is a big deal for me.
Well jeez Rita that sounds like a plan, you just send me an address and I'll send you a check!.... FISH ON.
What did you end up doing Jakelly?
Typically the pilots have issues with the cold and have better luck with E/H, but never say never and never say always.
I decided on a 2005 440 with high flow, cab, heat, and only 970 hrs. This machine came from a ski resort and was used mostly for snow removal, also the dealer is willing to wait until March, when I'll have the rest of the 21k, to sell it to me. I still need a high flow trencher attachment. Thanks for the help fellas, I am making an informed and confident decision because of the experience and knowledge passed on here.
Thats a good choice at a fair price. Watch Ironplanet.com, you might catch a HF trench going through between now and March. Heck as warm as its been in ND you could be grabbing some of that oil money right now.
Hey guys I am new to this forum. I have read this thread with interest because I am looking at buying my first tracked machine and have it narrowed down to a Takeuchi tl140 and a New Holland C185. I was interested in the discussion about the pilot controls. What kind of controls does the Tak machines have? I know a 150 I tested had really responsive controls! The NH C185 was really delayed in control response but I believe it has hydraulic fluid leaks in both joysticks. I am hoping to hear some opinions from members on these two machines. I don't mean to hijack this thread but considering Jake has decided on a machine and I am too new to start a new thread, I figured it would be okay. I am going to use this machine on a ranch in Northern Nevada. We live at the base of really big mountains and I need a machine that can handle steep terrain. I also deal with a lot of rock, but need the tracks mostly for working on wet meadows during irrigating season. If anybody has any info on the NH C185 or the Tak tl140 I would appreciate it!
Tell me about it! What a winter, could have worked all year thus far. NVtracks, my name is actually Josh, my choice for a tracked machine, before Mr. Kaiser got to me, was the ctl70 by Gehl. It is the Takeuchi tl140 in different paint with closer/better support, in my area, and will still be my first tracked choice when that time comes. There is a load of information in this forum on that machine if you use the search function. Incidentally, almost nothing even moderately negative is written about that Mustang/Gehl/Takeuchi.
Thanks for the info Josh! I agree completely that I have yet to read hardly anything negative about the Tak/Mustang/Gehl machines. I think the biggest drawback to them is the lack of high flow hydraulics. I am planning on running a brush beater and I guess this could be an issue with the Tak. I have read where some of the brush attachments will run on low flow but not many. The New Holland still seems doable but I am not sure it has high flow or not. Plus I have read about track frame leaning on the NH machines. That concerns me!
You might talk to a knowledgeable NH salesman. The track leaning issue I think was resolved. I know that it was not a wide spread issue. Gehl has offered high flow in the same machine if you can find one.
Thanks KSSS! I will try to get ahold of our "local" NH dealer and ask a few questions. I believe this NH I am considering is a 2006 so I wonder if the track frame lean issue was resolved pre or post 2006? It has other issues including joystick problems, so I am also looking at the TL140 along with a TL150. I need a machine to run a brush beater, handle rocks and such, along with running on wet hay meadows, so weight is definitely a concern. Thanks!
HCN Attachments of skid steer loader Hello Jakelly: Many thanks for your reply. But i don't understand you. what do you want to know? Please tell me. Best regards Rita Skype: xxxxx MSN: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx rGmail: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Please don't respond to spammers fellas, it makes our clean up job more complicated.
No problem, I'll fight the temptation to mock. Hey Nevada, The Gehls do come with a High-flow option; like this: http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8017257&
Jake do you worry about the scoria on the pad sites and the tracks?? Looking as well but I just don't know how bad it would tare them up?? Anyone else had to work on sharp scoria and a tracked machine??
I am not planning on using a tracked machine, I plan on using a Case440 with tires. Scoria will chew through tires, I'm sure the tracks will go fast, too.
Well I bought my first machine today. A 1997 two speed 90xt, with high flow, a cab (no door), and a hydraulic coupler. 5000 hrs is high, but I don't plan on using it as much as I once did. Thanks to all for the information I have received here. I am confident in my decision, because of your help. I will post pics as soon as I get the machine. P.S. Anyone have a door they aren't using?
The 90XT is a good machine. Its a HD machine with excellent high flow gpm.
I mostly need it to move round bales, snow, and do some dirt work on my property. The ranchette serves as my main tax write-off and now I have the option of using the skid steer on a weekend job for a few extra bucks. I haven't heard the rave reviews of the 90xt that I have for other Case models, but the brute strength and capabilities of the machine won me over.
The 90XT/450 is designed to excavate and move dirt. Its a physically heavy machine about 9k with a relatively low ROC of 2450. So for lift and carry type jobs its not a great machine (you wont have a problem moving round bales). The 95XT which weighed just a little more could lift almost 1000 pounds more than the 90XT, thanks to a little longer wheelbase and a vertical lift linkage. However the bucket functions are wicked fast about twice as fast as the 95XT. I have never owned one but have spent some time in them. I really like the machines. They have big power, and with all that weight they can really excavate material. If you have ride control and the two speed was standard its a very productive machine on the job site. The linkage gets a little loose as the hours tick off. You can shim it but thats just the way it is. You have a lot skid steer in the 90XT.
I do have the ride control with mine. I am glad to hear it is ready to excavate. How do the high flow hydraulics on these machines stack up to comparable ASV, takeuchi, or Cat.
They had two different types of highflow available. One was a 3000 psi version (more common) and the other a 5000 psi system. The 5K psi system is pretty impressive specs even with todays machines.