Ok guys, I'm looking for some wisdom from some experienced hands here... The machine in question is a 1987 Komatsu D21E-6, a 3 speed powershift transmission and it is showing 2,919 hours on the working hourmeter. What I need help with is deciding whether I should invest the time and money in fixing this machine or if I should trade/sell it, probably suffer a loss and try and step in to a better machine. Currently I cannot get the engine to fire nor can I find the source of the fuel that entered the crankcase during the last 100 hours of running. The injectors and the lift pump test out ok, but I have not had the injection pump tested as that would cost me $1,500 to essentially have it rebuilt for testing, or so I'm told, by the local fuel pump shop. After speaking to a few people there is a theory that low compression has allowed the injected fuel to leak by and enter the crankcase. I am currently trying to schedule an appointment with a mechanic from my local equipment dealership to see if we can pinpoint the no start problem. The dozer was also showing signs of failing steering clutches on the right side before it stopped running as I was having trouble getting the machine to turn to the right without any engine bog or stall when pulling on the steering lever. By my rough estimates it looks as though I would be into the machine at least another $1,500 in parts alone for the steering repairs, plus the diagnosis for the no start problem and whatever costs would be associated with it to get in running again. I paid $12,000 for this machine 4 years ago and have put 100 hours on it completing much needed projects around the property some of which are unfinished since the machine failed to start. The machine does have some cosmetic issues and has had some major welding repairs on the c-frame and blade. After some serious soul searching I do feel I have a strong need for a machine like this still. And just for the record, if I had it to do over again, I probably wouldn't have bought this particular machine. So what do you guys think? Brutally honest opinions won't offend me... Thanks in advance for your time and help.
I guess what you need to do is do a cost analasist on the situation. You have 12 in this machine and it needs some work. Let's say another 5. That will put you at 17. What will the old machine bring in it's current state if repair? What will the replacement cost? Lets say that it will bring 8 like it is. And another machine will cost you 14. You will have to put 6 with the 8 you get out of the old machine. Where as you can get the old machine fixed for 5. And you know a little history with the old machine and know what you have. If you get a different machine you do not know the history of it and could be getting into more repair that might show up right away.
I would definitely find out for sure exactly what the problems are before I decided. So far you are going on assumptions about repair costs. It could be cheaper than you think, or worse.
You make some very good points. I'm guessing $1,500 for the steering parts, and I have a rough estimate from a machine shop of $5,000 for rebuilding the engine if low compression is the problem. Now labor is the great unknown, these two repairs are no small feat, so having a shop do the repairs would add considerable cost. On the flip side, doing the work myself would keep the labor cost down, but I'm expecting my first child in January, so upcoming free time may be a bit in short supply. So for the sake of conversation, lets say labor runs me $5-7,000 for a grand total of $11,500-13,500 in repair costs. That puts me at somewhere between $23,500-25,500, all in for purchase, repairs and parts. That is squarely in the realm of newer machines with half as many hours. However, as you mentioned, what lurks undetected on the "new" machine is the great unknown. I highly doubt my machine repaired could demand anywhere near that total price on the open market. The dealership I'm hoping to set up some diagnosis time with has suggested that it is cost prohibitive to spend much beyond 50% of a machine's value if it were in running condition. My estimates easily put me well past that mark and your calculations put me just below that mark. I do like this machine for it's all mechanical simplicity versus the newer machines that have some "fancier" controls.
Mitch you are very right. I just needed to get this out to others better able to debate the options. I don't have much of a sounding board close by. This forum has proved to me time and again there are very helpful people out there and I respect the time and opinions you guys provide. So far my schedule has not meshed with the mechanics availability. I really want to be able to make a move once I have a diagnosis. Unfortunately, I found the HEF's after I bought this machine. What's the saying about hindsight.....:Banghead
How much more work do you need to get done? Instead of fixing right now maybe hire someone to do the work and let your crawler sit until you have time to do it yourself and maybe more cash saved up. Maybe in the meantime you will find a parts machine to buy to donate the parts needed to fix your crawler or donate parts from your crawler(maybe undercarriage swap) to fix up the other one. Couple more options.
Dave, right now the work I need to do isn't time sensitive, but I estimate at least another 100 hours of work for the projects that remain. That use estimate is before I find even more things that I can do with the dozer while completing the projects already on my list. The parts machine route is a good suggestion. I would be nervous about how long the used parts would last before I would end up back where I am. The machine has already been sitting for over a year while I try to find the time and money. In all honesty, as a guy who likes to do the work himself and learn some things, it has come to the point where my days of "doing and learning" are being replaced by "pay to have it fixed and running when it's needed."
What are your long term goals? For instance what are you going to do after you finish your 100 est. hrs. of work? Is it a sell it now or sell later routine?
The long term outlook for me is keeping a machine like this. Once the major projects are done, I will still need it for maintenance of the long gravel driveway on the property. Winter snow plowing and spring rains require yearly regrading of the drive and I just cant get the crown I need in the road with tractors using loaders and blades. There is also a need to push off brush and dirt that I am dumping at the edge of a small hillside ravine to fill it in as the material becomes available.
If what you describe about the engine and transmission is as bad as it sounds, it looks like a lost cause. It might be affordable if you had the time, tools, money and skill to repair. But lacking those I would suggest seeing if you can sell it for what you can get or possibly some trade value. Sorta sucks that you paid so much and go so little usage. Presently there are lots of good prices on dozers since the economy is lousy. It is possible with some look about you can find a replacement for the same cost of repair. Read Threads on the forum here on how to judge the quality of the used dozers you might encounter.
If you do decide to let the machine go. And still require the services of a dozer, get a bigger one next time. You can litterally do 2x the work in 1/2 the time when you step up to a 80hp, 8-9 ton model. Especially if your going to leave the machine in one location and would not have the burden of transportation. As far a selling it, unless its running, dont expect to get very much, like expect parts machine / scrap prices, and if the tranny & motor have problems... There is a guy in delevan ny that does alot with those little buggers, ebay's alot of stuff, get his opinion.
If I read between the lines correctly you should consider selling it as scrape because that is all it is worth with all the questions and unknowns. You can do this now or later as it is not much money. Rent a machine for you or hire out the remaining work. Buy a hydraulic top and tilt and a heavy duty blade and grader/planer (like a DuraGrader) for your tractor to keep the drive way. You shouldn't need a dozer to crown or fix a road even after mud season.
Machinery of any kind is an investment with potential of either making money or saving money by use. In my mind instead of buying this machine with the idea of doing personal projects one probably should have looked at the associated costs of doing those projects. Renting a machine has a known cost. You pay for fuel, insurance and rent. If it breaks you call the owners and tell them to get another machine out to take the broken one's place. You could hire the project done. You detail your job to someone who finishes the project and you pay your money. Again you know or have complete control over what something is going to cost. When you buy used equipment you are hoping the machine will run long enough to finish your project before you have to spend money on maintenance and repairs. You still have insurance and fuel costs and all the other ownership costs on top of that. In your case, it appears you have a black hole of questions about your investment and very few facts in which to base a cost effective solution on. To take it further you haven't figured the possible costs using the other options given above to complete your project. Your statement that you purchased the machine and now have a lot of repair work to do tells me you really bought yourself an expensive hobby. You have talked to "some people" about your problem but haven't had a knowledgable honest mechanic, who doesn't have an interest in selling you a monster job, come out and actually determine what is wrong. These engines usually have an electric shut off. Have you checked that out? The only real way to get fuel in the basement on these machines is to have broken the fuel injection pump from water in the fuel or have a bad fuel transfer pump. The injectors would have to be total junk to run that much fuel into cylinders which means the fuel injection pump would have to be toast anyway. You have stated there are steering brake issues but haven't told us how you determined that. You stated the hour meter shows 2,919 hours which is way too few hours if correct to have steering problems other than adjusting the brakes. Given the age of this machine it is very probable that the hour meter is not the original one installed when the machine was new. You need someone there to fully assess the situation and then make decisions based on facts. It is obvious you don't have enough background in machinery to ask the specific questions that will receive anything but shotgun answers that will only confuse the real issues. Good Luck!
The fuel problem should not necessarily cost $1500 unless you know the pump is really a leaky bugger. And 2900 hrs for a burnt out final sounds really premature. The seals for the pistons on the finals might be more suspect and if you are looking at new frictions, look for the aftermarket materials which have gotten better. When you're not using the machine as a rental or for your livelihood, you can afford to go with the non-factory stuff. Of course, I always tried the alternative makers because I did my own wrenching and that saved one of the bigger costs of fixing anything. I wouldn't write it off yet. It sounds like you have too much work to do with the machine. Looking back and saying "I should have rented" is great but I wouldn't take the loss on the bird in the hand yet.
If I get rid of this dozer i will find another of the same size. I do need to be able to move it my pickup truck and trailer and it is the perfect size to be able to do that. I knew going into this issue that scrap prices might be the best offer I get. I have spoken to Darren via phone and email regarding the steering issues and the "no start/fuel in oil" situation. He has given me some good ideas on how to pinpoint the issues. To be perfectly honest, the dozer is a night and day difference from a tractor with regards to maintaining this driveway which is very hardpack due to being a high traffic lane. I need a heavy machine with good down pressure and traction to manipulate the drive on the hills that I have to rework sometimes. John C. thanks for your input. Right off the bat, I’m going to admit that perhaps my inquiry into this problem may be a bit premature, since I don’t have a firm diagnosis on the root causes. However, please understand that so far my attempts at having mechanics asses the problem have ranged from “We won’t look at it unless you drag it to us” to “We can have a field service tech come out, but we’re not promising we can diagnose what the problem is.” In all honesty when I purchased this machine I was pretty green with this type of machine. However, I’ve spent the last 10 years around some machinery and had some exposure to in depth repairs with hands on experience. I am not totally blind even if I don’t have specific training regarding diesel engines. I also spent the better part of a month tracking down various machines to rent before buying this particular dozer. Two factors came into play there: the only machines available were too big for what I was doing because project access was a problem and when I did find a machine the cost to rent was still prohibitive to the nature of the work and the time that it would take to do the work. Additionally, having an outside contractor come in to do the work was/and still is impractical for reasons I will not elaborate on. I never bought this machine with the hopes that it would last just long enough to complete my tasks without maintenance and then send it down the road. I do my best to keep up with maintenance and repairs on anything I purchase. I was also fully aware to the fact that very likely I would need to fix things as I go. Now in regards, to the expensive hobby comment, I should say you are correct there. However, before I wave the white flag and surrender I would like to point towards HEF member Boone whose “First Track Loader” thread is very similar to my situation not only in equipment problems but in his needs for such a machine. In case you missed it in my original post. I have checked the lift pump by pressurizing it with compressed air as suggested by the fuel pump and injector shop. No go, it was airtight. The injectors being pop tested was a mere $80, so that’s two variables eliminated. It is good to know for future problems though that fuel injectors alone cannot dump that amount of fuel into the crankcase. The Bosch P7100 injector pump has a manual shut off lever that is connected to the throttle lever, so there is no electric solenoid like some engines in various platforms. Since the engine is not currently running when I move the lever to the “stop” position I can hear the rack disengage inside the injector pump. Judging by the direction in your post I get the feeling you are highly suspect of my injector pump. If you have any suggestions for me on how to test this pump or narrow down a trouble spot, I am all ears. I would love to learn a few things on how to troubleshoot this problem. Just to sweeten the deal, if the problem is relatively simple you have free reign to say “See it wasn’t as bad as you thought, all that worrying for nuthin” The steering issues have been narrowed down to fouled steering clutches by way of a leaky seal separating the right side steering clutch housing from the differential housing. This is common to these machines. I have the telltale leak of fluid from the “corked” and unused bolt holes in the back of the clutch housing when looking at the back of the machine. My differential housing oil level also slowly drops over time and finally, the steering brakes were adjusted by me within the first week of ownership and then rechecked when I began to experience problems. There really is no guessing on the scope of this project. Time spent in the “D21 and similar gray market dozer” thread has given me excellent insight into the scope of work required to fix this problem, especially since talking to Darren Ray who frequents that thread and is very knowledgeable with this type of machine . The whole back of the machine has to come apart. There is also plenty of information out there to give me a good idea of what parts alone will cost for this specific repair on the machine without labor, which I know to be in the $100 an hour range as I have been quoted. The only part missing is a total labor time estimate. Finally, please do not interpret this response as “pushing back” at you. I understand your thoughts on the vagueness of my original post, hence trying to answer some of your questions in the above paragraphs. I’m not looking for sympathy or a shoulder to cry on, just some good ideas on where this whole situation could take me and what pitfalls I should avoid. At least I could step back and realize that I needed to seek outside opinions on what the cut off point should be on time and money spent fixing this dozer. Pretty much anything can be fixed. I’m just asking if it’s reasonable to do so. You and the others have presented some good arguments. I have a left a message with my local tractor dealership to set up an appointment to hopefully come out next week. They do not sell Komatsu equipment or parts for this dozer so I think they will have an unbiased opinion for me. Thankfully they are very willing to help based on our business with them through the years, but they have been so busy that their road mechanic’s free time has not meshed with mine. I’m hoping that will change.
I was a little suprised when the fuel shop told me they would have to rebuild the pump to make it worthwile to test it, but in any event they told me it would be $1,500 to do it. You can imagine how dissappointed I would be to hear "Well we rebuilt the pump and it doesn't seem to be the problem. Your total bill is $1,500" It would be a little painful to spend the $ and still not have cause for the problem. I really need to look closer at the parts I have found listed online to see if they are genuine parts or aftermarket. I've been burned on aftermarket car replacement parts before. I would hate having to go that deep into the machine a second time because I saved some money and it came back to haunt me. Nevertheless, it's an avenue I need to look down for a price comparison. Thanks to all of you for your input so far.
With the line off you should see diesel pumping, if not could still be air problem. You could try putting an injector and line on the outside of the engine and see if it pops.
Pump shops dont want to test pumps with old oil to contaminate there machine fluids.
Might want to revisit diesel pump fuel shutoff ( what kills the engine, mechanical or electric?) to see if you get full travel.
Hey Patrick- First of all, I appreciate your plight, you are not a professional, there is no profit, no bottom line, and no reason to spend your money on rentals, contractors and mechanics unless absolutely necessary. You just want a machine, to use when you need it. Bear in mind that a lot of guys here on HEF put 200 hours A MONTH on machines, so a repair that will only last 500 hours is a waste of their time. For you it could last YEARS. Oh yeah and they get paid for those hours, so dropping $5000 to keep working is paid for in a couple of weeks. Since you have a no-run situation, it's back to the basics. My old auto shop teacher always said- fuel, air, compression, ignition. If you have all these things it will fire. Maybe not run, or run well, but fire. Do you have fuel? Open up the lines, check filter, transfer pump, anything in the way. Don't forget the little screen that may be in the inj. pump and the shut of valve (could have come apart inside, pin sheared on a shaft, etc.) Do you have air? Same thing- check or remove anything in the way. Compression- it does not need the max to run- get it checked- do it yourself- gauge is only $40. Ignition- in this case it's mostly covered by compression, but be sure starter, battery, any solenoids, etc are good. These steps will save you hundreds with a mechanic. Some other points- Once you get it running you can move on to the other problems. If its running, at all, it will near double the price if you decide to sell. What was the LAST thing it did when it was running? Important to know where to look for the problem. Check fuel supply and electrical first. Then compression. Do not put the injectors back in. Bleed the injection system, it's a breeze with the injectors out, won't kill the battery or starter and you can SEE the fuel. Now put the injectors on the lines but not in the block. (DO NOT put your body on anything important in front of them, they can make in invisible stream that will cut things) You can SEE if they work. If you do these things it will run, or you missed something. Re the steering- IDK about this machine, but on old Cats we just fill the compartment with diesel or kerosene and run it awhile to flush it good, then drain. What's left should evap off the brake shortly. Then leave the corks out and let the bad seal leak out instead of contaminating the brake. You can buy hundreds of gallons of oil for what it will cost you to take that final apart. And if it's the diff housing that is leaking, with just big gears in it (no pumps or filters etc) then give it some stop leak! Regards,
Iron@Dirt and CarlSharp, Thank you both for your responses. It's good to know why the pump shop was telling me about the cost to rebuild upfront. I wasn't aware of a contamination issue. As far as the final running moments before this problem showed up...I was tracking across the property to the ravine to push some fill in. Just as I arrived I noticed my water temp gauge was running a little higher than normal but nothing to be concerned about, since it was a hot August afternoon. I let the machine idle for a few minutes and the water temp was very stable. No sooner did I start pushing some of the fill into the ravine and the exhaust note gets a slightly higher pitch and starts turning to a gray color and the water temp is going towards red. I immediately backed away to flat ground and go to shut the machine off. I pushed the throttle lever down to disengage the pump and I got no response. The engine starts to speed up enough I was afraid it was going to run away and all of a sudden it just starts to sputter down until it shuts off by itself. At this point I let the machine sit for a few hours to cool off while I thought about my approach to checking things. The first thing I did was check the oil, which was ok, checked the fuel tank level, which was full, and the radiator, which was full of coolant. I cranked the engine, which turned over fine, but it did not fire. The next thing I did was drain the fuel tank for 20 seconds or so into a jar so I could check for water or excessive debris, which I found nothing but clean No. 2 ULSD. I then disconnected the fuel line at the lift pump, checked the inlet screen, which was clean, and then removed the clamp from the fuel supply line and checked for gravity fed fuel flow from the tank to the lift pump. I had a strong flow of fuel so I reconnected the hose and removed the fuel filter and drained it into a clean jar to see if any contaminants came out of it. Again, nothing to be found, other than undyed No. 2 ULSD fuel. Unfortunately, I did not have a new fuel filter so I had to reinstall what I took off. I then primed the system with the plunger pump on the side of the lift pump with the fuel filter housing vent plug open. I got air free fuel out of the vent plug very quickly. I then loosened all four injector lines at the injectors to check for flow and watched them while my dad cranked the engine for me. Again I got fuel fairly quickly and air free too. I retightened the lines and cranked the engine for about 15-20 seconds with a good pause between cranks. On the second attempt it fired right up. I let it idle up to the green range on the temp gauge, tracked it back across the property to the barn (300 yards away) and did some light pushing with the dozer to see if the problem came back. All told I ran the machine 30 to 45 minutes with not one hiccup and I thought I had it fixed, so I parked it back under the barn. Two weeks later I come home from work and go to start it and it wont start. It cranked strong but seemed labored. I checked the oil and realized I had some significant fuel dilution. I changed the inner and outer air filter, the oil and oil filter, fuel filter, reprimed the fuel system like described above and still could not get it to start. At this point I pulled the injectors and the lift pump to test them as I described in an earlier post. I did not do a compression check because my shop manual for the machine was telling me that correct cylinder pressures were well above what a standard compression tester would read. Also, all the compression testers I found for diesel engines were upwards of $2-300 dollars and i couldn't find the specific adapter for the injector bores. In hindsight I suppose I could have checked through the glow plug holes but I wasn't too sure and wanted to err on the side of caution. Unfortunately, I am not near my shop manual and cannot remember what the cylinder pressures should be. That brings us to present day...I do have an appointment for the dozer at the aforementioned tractor shop, although I will try cranking the engine over with the injectors out of the engine but hooked to the lines before it goes over to the shop. I will also look into the fuel cut off linkage to see if that leads anywhere. Thanks for the help once again. I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I will be spending it on a tugboat....
Confused yet ?
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Well everyone, with the new year brings some new information. First of all, I did go back to basics as Carl Sharp suggested. With all those checked I moved on to the fuel pump. I removed all four injectors and supply lines and reinstalled them on the pump outside of the engine. I cranked the engine and was able to verify that all four injectors are firing once bled free of air. I did manage to track down a fairly reasonably priced compression tester at my local NAPA store. Suffice to say I think I have found my problem. Below are the compression values that I recorded: Cylinder #1 - 315 psi Cylinder #2 - 285 psi Cylinder #3 - 80 psi Cylinder #4 - 160 psi Now, so there are no questions, these values were recorded with the engine at approximately 60*F. My shop manual says that acceptable compression values for the engine should be at least 300 psi when the engine is between 100* and 140*F. So it seems that 1 and 2 are plenty strong but 3 and 4 are out to lunch. My next steps will be to pull the valve cover, check valve lash and the condition of the valve springs. If I don't find any issues there, I am going to pull the head and check for the remote possibility of a bad head gasket between the two cylinders and the condition of the valves and the seats to see if my problem is there. After that I suppose I'll be calling machine shops for quotes on a rebuild. Thanks for all the help, I'll keep you updated.
Please keep us updated on what you find. I don't mind learning from other peoples experiences.
Now that you know what kind of problems to look for in these dozers, I would keep your current machine for a parts machine and try to find another machine just like the one you have (in better condition) to operate. Just an idea.
In the interest in closing out a thread, I thought I would post an update. In the month or so following my last post I spent a good bit of time calling around to get estimates to rebuild my engine and transmission. Long story short, my local Komatsu dealer was my only option for rebuilt components that would have some sort of warranty that would be relatively easy to call on if one of the new/rebuilt parts failed. I quickly learned that despite how common these little dozers are, the parts availability for a 20 year old machine was slim to none. All told, my repairs were nearing the $18k mark before factoring in any labor. Ummm, Yeah, time to move on to another machine. Through some contacts here on the HEF, I was able to sell the old machine for salvage value. As a result of this and factoring in the value of the work I performed before the machine failed, I almost broke even with my total expenses on the machine including purchase price. Yes, I know that isn't cause to celebrate, but at least I wasn't in the hole for the entire amount I spent. As luck would have it, I was able to purchase a 2008 Komatsu D21P-8 with only 285 hours on it. I was also able to get a warranty on the entire powertrain that is honored at my local Komatsu dealership. I know some members won't agree with the purchase of a machine this size, however for the intended uses, something I could move between properties with my current truck and trailers, was absolutely the most critical factor. I hope to have this machine for a very long time. Thank you to everyone who took the time to provide an opinion or words of wisdom, I assure you it was most appreciated.
On a similar subject. I have an Cat D6B that needs new undercarriage which would probably cost more than the machine is worth. Does anyone know a good place that would take this machine in northern NC or southern VA? Thanks