I'm looking to buy a backhoe in the next week or two. I've been looking on craigslist for stuff in my area and have narrowed it down to either a Ford 4500 loader/backhoe, or a John Deere 510 loader/backhoe. I was leaning towards the JD until I learned that it doesnt use glow plugs, but uses a block heater. The ford has glow plugs - I'm thinking it'd be much easier to start in < 30F temperatures. Any thoughts on this? As far as I can tell the JD is more powerful - seems a bit larger, but the Ford I suspect may be easier to work on or get parts for. Thoughts? Also - what are everyone's thoughts on these two machines overall? Any current owners have advice for either? Thanks in advance! Alan
No experience with the Ford engine, but the deere will start below zero IF you can reach power, with a block heater. If you have enough watts, 1,500 is nice, then it will only take a half an hour to warm it up at 30. I'd guess the factory block heater is 1,000W, which is good enough, how often do you plan to use it when it's -30. What age are you talking about, are there any letters in the model numbers?
Thanks... I'm not planning on using it terribly much during no the winter bit would be nice to have as a backup for snow removal. Also it'll be parked pretty far from the house so laying a cord out through snow / wet ground doesn't give me warm feelings I don't have enough experience with diesel to say how difficult starting in cold weather will be. But it seems a lot easier to use glow plugs off of a battery. The year of the 4500 is mid 70s...and the JD is roughly the same, maybe late 70s. Im also considering using whatever machine I choose as a general purpose machine for our property... So a rear PTO would be nice... Don't think the JD has that. Thanks
It only has to be plugged in for an hour or two. I wouldn't have warm feelings either about laying six decrepit indoor extension cords that get driven over in the wet snow. I have four diesels. I regularly plug them in (some have glows, others have intake heaters or recirculating pumps) in the snow with a high quality outdoor rated cord that is in good condition. All of my diesels start on demand.
If it was me, I'd take the block heater over glow plugs. 12-2 UF is cheap and you'll figure out a way to bury it. Leave the heater plugged in and have a timer switch inside so you can turn it on an hour before you want to use it, it will start so easy you'll start using the block heater when it's 50 outside. I have a similar JD backhoe with a similar engine, but I don't know enough about that one or the Ford to comment on which would be more suitable. Two different websites say that 510 is 19,000lbs? that would be heavier than anything except the 710's if that's true? The 510b is 13,000lbs, which is closer to what the Ford would be, apparantly 7,000lbs with loader. They look like they're both some of the last tractor based backhoes, before they were redesigned specifically as a tractor loader backhoe with less in common with industrial/farm tractors. If the weight really is that much different, then the deere is going to outdig the Ford, but not too useful around the yard.
Don't think the 4500 has glow plugs either what it might have is a air heater which is one plug in the air intake pipe not glow plugs in each cyl.
The JD 510 is a much larger hoe than the 4500 Ford. The 510 was build as a loader backhoe, it should have inboard planitarys on the rear. They were a good machine in there day but were to big and clumsy for most of the utility jobs that used tractor hoes. Never heard of much issue with either machine.
Great info! Thanks everyone for the quick feedback. As a general purpose machine the Ford seems a little more versatile... Is the backhoe hard to remove/reinstall if I wanted to?
The backhoe is pretty easy to remove, however, you will most likely to find that it DOES NOT have a PTO or 3 point hitch. Mine does not. Also, the 4500 does not have glow plugs. They use a Thermostart system. The Thermostart plug in the intake manifold gets red hot then drips diesel onto it to ignite. This warms the manifold and incoming air. System works great!
Whenever you are using an air heater, keep in mind to NEVER use ether when having one of them activated.
If you go with the 4500 I would still be a good investment to install a 1500 watt tank or block heater and find a closer spot to park to a power source. That $60.00 heater will pay for itself many times over in aggravation and engine longtivity. The other bonus is if the tractor will be seldon started as you stated you can stick a battery charger on it at the same time and top of the battery as you warm it up. Grinding with low batteries are hard on starters.
Thanks - the 4500 has a feature where you turn the key to the left for a few seconds to warm it up - i assumed that was glow plugs. Yeah I'm considering something that can take attachments with a rear PTO. I've heard that the 4500's with the shuttle-shift transmission doesn't have PTO capability (easily). That's why I was asking about it.
The left key position warms up the intake to help the fuel combust when cold, it will help the engine fire in colder weather but it does nothing to warm the engine for less cold start wear, nor does it do anything to warm the engine up so that it cranks over easier. It takes some sort of an engine heater to do that. I do not believe either the 510 nor the 4500 will have a PTO on them. If you add one which can be done for sure on the 4500 it may still not have the live PTO clutch in it.
Yup - that's what I thought. Thanks!
My 4500 does have a block heater, I believe its on right hand side of the block. Without being plugged in, I can start it down to about 25 degrees.
Thanks everyone - great feedback all around. One final question - getting parts - is it easy to get parts for these machines? I see a lot more of the Ford 4500's around than I do the JD 510. Do local JD dealers stock parts for their machines? Where can i get stuff for Fords. Online is fine for me as well as local. Thanks a million once again! Very helpful!
The Deere parts are about twice what Ford gets. I was in the same boat 25 years ago, looking at a 510 and a 5150 Ford. I priced some pins and bushings at both dealers; Ford I could afford to run. I'm on a lava flow and needed something heavy, 10 tons, to be able to break out the rocks. I'd rented a Ford 555, which is a 6 ton machine. I spent an hour trying to bust up some rocks and just slid the machine around and made some sparks. The big machine took 15 minutes to do it. If you don't have rocks or need to lift something heavy, the smaller machines seem to be more popular. And cost more...
Agreed, along with everything else you said. With both machines there's two classes of parts. Most of what you'll need will be engine related, hydraulic hoses, etc. that you can get locally anywhere. Then there's the stuff that breaks every now and then that the dealer will have to order, or you'll get from a junkyard, or put back together by a machinist. Neither Deere or Ford will be able to get ALL the parts. The little bit in between (hydraulic filters, some drivetrain parts, etc) that the dealer stocks, or you can also find online. The cost of parts would be the last thing on my mind in this decision. There's a reason Deere (or Cat) can charge what it does for parts.
Don't they sell many Ford's in WI? Out here, Case is #1, Deere #2. Case was real aggressive on low pricing new machines and making it up on parts and service. Ford was expensive new and cheaper for parts and service. I think I would be looking at how many hoes they sold way back when; the more, the better chance of finding a used part. There's a lot of stuff on my Ford that is NLA from Ford. So if I need something used, it's good the 750 and 755 are the same tractor. And I think they sold a lot more 4500's than 510's. At least you see way more questions about them on the forum..
Interesting to hear about the pricing strategies, hadn't heard that. I had heard of one International truck dealer that took the sell low and make it up on parts approach, but that was many decades ago. I don't have any idea which sold more or how many are still around for parts. I'd agree that there's more Case's, but there's not many of any of these oldies around to be honest. The deere probably shares parts across the lineup like any manufacturer. It looks like that 510 has the 8 speed powershift transmission that went in machines from the early 60's until present? That's a stout transmission but I wouldn't want to have to dig into it in a vintage backhoe. A torque converter and shuttle shift would be more useful for loader work.
I have had a 1973 ford 4500 TLB for about 4 years. Parts are easy to get and not real expensive. Great machine, and easy to work on. Mine does not have glow plugs but does have a block heater on the starboard side (right side). With the block heater plugged in, this winter it started in 8 degree weather. The brakes are the only thing that is a pain to work on. Backhoe comes off easily, but no pto.
Going with the john deere... Hope to have it delivered in a few days... Can't wait! Thanks for all the input!
I have both a ford 4500 tlb and a john deere loader with shuttle shift, I have had the ford for about ten years and it has proven to be a great machine would by another if i neede to. The john deere has been a big disapointment. The steering linkage is so loose that you can,t run it on the road, also there is lots of play in the steering column
I dohave one problem with the ford 4500 TLB. with a fully charged battery I turn the ignition switch and nothing happens except the ignition light goes out. this seems to happen intermitently any advice
I don't know if all but at least some older John Deere TLB used pins and bushings instead of tie rod steering joints. That was a bad choice. I had one.
My 555 has been doing that for years. I have to wiggle the shifter in neutral. Then it starts.
If you mean it's not cranking the starter; the circuit from the battery, fuse, ignition switch, neutral switch, solenoid, starter, is like the old Xmas tree lights. Any one of them failing and the whole string goes dark or won't crank like yours. So you have to probe the circuit to find out how far the power is getting. Just hope that it fails, and stays failed. Hardest to diagnose are intermittent ones that fix themselves....
Glow plug or intake heater are not very effective at -30 they most likely drain half the battry then no power to start. One good alternative is a wabasto engin heater 15 min, it run on litle 12 volt power And fuel. We use it on our Fleet of 150 grabage truck and they. Start right up. In my opinion it wil be esayer to get part for a jd