just performed inframe on truck, had all 3 heads reworked, freshed up bottom end, put liners in,,, joked with my helper bout hey theres a note in the liner box that says,, DONT USE OIL OIL GLUE OR GREASE WHEN INTALLING, TOO USE COOKING OIL, needless to say I had a lite grease that I normaly use in doing inframes, I litely greased the liners an installed the old shims that go under the liners then eased the liners into the block, I noticed they went in pretty easy with hardly any tapping with a wood block an rubber mallet. I basicly did the inframe with out any issues, an when I fill the radiator up with water I noticed I had water running outta the exhaust ports,,, I was frustrated as heck by this, needless to say I pulled the heads back off an found that the pistons were full of water, with heads off I filled the block back up with water an started seeing water creep up out from around the liners, so therefore water was comeing around liner an but head gasket somehow an into cylinder. I also noticed that the top of the liner will wiggle just a lil side to side an water leaks out, (few yrs ago a ole timer told me to out a lil glue around the top of the cummins liners when pressing them in an clean off the mess off the top so basicly that's what ive allways done till now. I didn't do these liners cause the paper work said not too, ( so now im wandering is this what the ole timer was talking about when he trust me an just put lil glue on it). the ole liners all had the thin shim under them, I kept the shim for each liner in its correct hole it came out off, ive allways just used ole shims onto the new liners, I know in my installation paper work it says .04 to .07 high for each liner. but the question is how does the top of the liner seal off the water if it don't have a upper seal, does the liner an shim when pressed into place seal off tight enuff to seal it off, when I looked at head gaskets the under sides looked as if they were pressed against the top of liners an looked as if left the indention from being compressed. also another question, when checking the liner height, what do you use as the top of liners measureing point, do you use the very top of the liner were the fireing ring is or do ya use the outside of the liner were it meet the block.
Yes you should use cooking oil. Petroleum products can destroy the liner O-rings and crevice seal. The crevice seal and two o-rings seal the bottom of liner. Do not use sealant in the counter bores. One question did you install the water grommets in the head gaskets? Or were the grommets factory installed in the head gaskets. The liners will not seal without gaskets and heads installed and torqued. When checking liner protrusion or liner to deck height, measure on the outside edge of liner to deck. I like liners in the middle 5 to 6. And that block does not have lower press fit liners, so yes the liners will drop in rather easy when things are right. Truck Shop
the head gaskets already had the rubbers made in them,,, how does the top of the liner seal with out any kinda seal, does the shim being compressed when heads torqued down seal off the water, how tight should the liner be fitting in the top of block, mine seems to have a lil side to side play in them.
It's been many years since I worked on a Cummins NTC engine. But back in the days when I did many the water holes in the head gasket had separate while seal rings. If the head gasket had indents from the ridge around the top of the liner it seems like that would indicate a good seal there. What is bothering me is why you have water coming out of the exhaust ports. If the head gasket is sealing around the liner it seems like the only place for the coolant to get in to the cylinder to be from a problem in the heads themselves. Just thinking out loud, injector tubes, cracked heads, or cracked liners?
yea sounds crazy to me too, just had heads worked an don't think all 3 heads would be bad, all new tubes ,all new liners. gotta be something ive over looked. I have noticed that I have side to side play in top of liners were they fit in block. but if they were shimmed correctly for hight would the compression seal water off from getting pass liner
Let's address the elephant in the room here. You say you kept the shims in order to the proper hole. Just putting the same shims back in the bore they came out of doesn't guarantee proper protrusion. The protrusion has to be correct to allow for the correct gasket squeeze to seal everything off. I'm not surprised at all that coolant will leak around the liner with the head off. O-rings seal the bottom, head gasket clamped between liner, block, and head seals the top. The protrusion sets the gasket squeeze. Too much protrusion, the gasket doesn't seal around the liner. Too little, the head gasket will fail prematurely. Get your liner protrusion in spec, put it back together with new head gaskets. If you feel the need, pressure test the cooling system before you light it up.
The seal is created when the cylinder head is torqued down. It's a combination of the liner pressed down in counter bore and the head gasket. The gasket seals off area between the deck and liner. When liners get loose that's when the counter bores start to erode plus loss of head gasket seal. That's why the shims are under the liner, some come from the factory with shims now days. Or that block was cut for shims during an inframe sometime back. There is also a .020x.040 over size counter bore liner to correct bad counter bores. When you say the liner has side play when seated in the block-How much? And on the paper work for those heads did it say those heads were pressure tested after the injector coppers were replaced. There are only two places to leak into the cylinder, either the liner is too low in the block or it's leaking past the coppers. Did you clamp each liner down when checking liner protrusion? that is a must do. And did you clean out the head bolt threads in the block? Truck Shop
Wrong liners. Had it happen before. Check the # stamped on the old liners and verify against new. There are 4 or 5 different liners that will go in the block. I know from personal experience... check the part #s on the liners... learned the hard way.... especially if they are aftermarket liners.
Your right, that's a very high possibility.
wow, never though of it being the wrong liners, look the same,,, but the tops may be a shade differ, don't think ive seen any numbers on liners before,,,,every time I order my kits I do have to give all part numbers off my ole parts,, but never had to on a liner. ill look into it monday thx.
The number is typically printed on the top of the liner around the fire ring. It would be where the head touches the liner. Might take some cleaning but it is there. I agree with truck shop. More than likely you have the right deck height on the liner but the cylinder diameter of the block is over size. This let's the liner **** in the block and you get water in the cylinders and head gaskets that blow out immediately. Everything goes together like it should, even presses in flat but it won't seal and you can't see it with your eyes. When rebuilding these engines use only cummins liners and make sure you look at the part # on the liner. If you can't see it mic it.
well I did my research an got the correct liners in today, ran over head, set intake at .11 an exhaust at .23 an injectors at 6 in lbs, started it up an runs great around the shop, got a driver an we went up the road an every now an then the motor will start to skip an act as if were running outta fuel or getting air in it, can work the foot petal few times an get back in it hard an itll eventualy kick back up an smoke a lil bit the get up an go, kinda like its loading up , when it does this it skips pretty good an kinda sounds like a knocking sound in the bottom end. can bring it back to shop an rive it up few times an it ll straighten out an idle an run around shop ok again. pulled fuel filter off, was half full, removed fuel suction line from pt pump to tank an there wasn't any blockages. motor is pretty responsive an quick when ya hit the accelerator. a friend of mine said it sounds like the valves maybe set a lil to tite, he says to set intake at a loose .11 an exhaust at about .25 an since im there redoing settings to go ahead an do injectors again. any ideas guys thx
I've never heard of valves doing that If the filter was half full, then it's sucking air somewhere. That doesn't mean that it's not blocked also. It will rev fine because it's not using as much fuel as it is when under load.
Either fuel or air problem, You didn't leave any rags used to plug off openings somewhere did you? One area to look at is the fuel return line. If the inside of hose has any restrictions such as the hose will swell and restrict the return flow to fuel tank, Which will put pressure back at the aneroid on the pump. Causing pump to cut back fuel. The fuel filters on NTC's are never completely full of fuel. Check to see something isn't blocking air flow. Simple things first and 11 and 23 are fine.
my buddy said something bout the aneroid, im not familiar with it, whats it do, weres it at on pt pump?
Until you get a load on it for a few hours, you might not have all the air out of the heads yet. Get a load on it and work it. Hard. Should be doing that anyway to get the rings seated. Generally aneroids are used on engines with injection pumps. They restrict rack travel until the engine has a pre-determined amount of boost pressure. Cummins PT aneroid is on top of pump and has a line going to the intake.
Did you reuse or install another turbo? Did you lock-up the compressor wheel on intake side till engine gained steady oil pressure? Even when installing a used turbo that could have drained out, It's wise to make sure there's oil psi before letting it spin. Truck Shop
we reused the old turbo, but we do practice fill the top of turbo with oil an turning the fins by hand till oil drips out the drain tube, did some more talking to the driver today an he told me the other wk just before motor was built, he had to hit the jakes due to the rpm,s wouldn't go down fast enuff in order to shift gears, its like the pump was staying in high an not letting the accelerator idle back down like normal, but after we did inframe an ran over head again today an ran it again today, motor still runs great an strong an very responsive when hitting the gas, when went up the road hard pushing round 2200 rpm,s then turned around an when motor started to idle down it still acts as if were loading up an skidding an smokeing , we go on it lil bit an it slowly cleared up,,, the when going up the road we lugged the motor a lil an it seemed fine,,, came up road lil more an lugged it an it did the dang fuel knocking sound an smokeing again, let off it an got back in the gas more an it cleared up an ran fine once got back to shop, we even put the trains. in 5 th gear an heck it ll pull off fine an want skip or knock one bit. ive check the aneroid for leaks, pulled the pt pump screen filter out, checked all fuel lines to an from tank,heads,pt pump,an back to tank. ran over head 3 differ. times,,,, I think somethings going on in the pt pump.
Is the arm on the fuel pump ok? They have a spring that can break and cause it to act funny. If the throttle arm is good, then the throttle shaft seal is bad and it's sucking air.
Pull the return fuel line off at fuel tank and run it in a bucket, it should have a good steam of fuel at idle. Or make up a hose with one fitting on one end to test with. Slow decell is indication of internal pump problem, air in system or plugged return line.
im guessing ur referring the the throttle lever were linkage ties to pump from petal,,, I have noticed its a lil wet after a while of running an eventualy it will make a drip under the pump
If fuel is getting out, air can get in. Sounds like you might have figured it out. Good thing is the pumps come off pretty easy. Bad thing is, it's probably not going to pull as good after it gets fixed. Around here, the guys in the repair shops think the EPA is going to smash their door down if they give it 1 psi more rail pressure than spec.