Hello, I've got an oldie but goodie 96J series D5 and she is dumping an lot of fuel out of a hose right where the injector pump bolts up to the backside of the front cover. It looks like it is some sort of a vent hose that just comes off a nipple and goes straight down. The hose has always dribbled over the years but now it runs out very steadily and I'm losing a lot of fuel and more imprortantly I'm afraid it will burn up with all the trash from cedar down in the belly. The dozer still runs fine and I am guessing this has more to do with the lift pump than the injector pump, kinda afraid to just tear into it without some idea on what is the matter so I would appreciate any help. Thanks.
Thats a telltale drain from the fuel transfer pump. If you remove the pump/governor assembly from the engine, you can then remove the transfer pump. Inside it you will find two lip seals. One of these will have failed. While you are at, you should check the pump camshaft bearing for excessive wear. Good luck...
Here's a scan from how the seals are arranged on my D6...I'm guessing the D5 has a similar seal arrangement. Front seal keeps oil in engine, smaller second seal keeps fuel in the pump. The seep hole is between the seals in case either of them leak.(not shown in pic) You have to make sure the put the seals in with the lips facing the right directions.
OK, great response! The injector pump comes off first but how hard is it gonna be to put it back correctly as I suppose it needs to be timed? I had a service manual somewhere around here but not sure if it was for a 3304 or a 3306. I guess this engine is a 3306?
Here's the timing procedure for a 3306...it not too difficult to do. Hopefully you can read it, the scan is a little small. (this is for the sleeve metering fuel pump)
I got the injector pump off today but it looks like I am gonna need a few more tools to get the job done. I need a big socket and a puller to get the gear off the injector (driveshaft?) which is under that little tin cover on the front of the engine. I am just hoping I can get it all timed correctly so she will run when I finish. Got a screwdriver locking down the crankshaft at the flywheel but don't have the alignment jig that goes on where the injector pump bolts up so I hope I manage to get it all sync'd up once I'm done or else it's a call to the Cat guy. Hopfully not. I know I can get it damn close but must ask, just how critical is the injector timing on these engines? They seem pretty crude or am I wrong? Oh yeah on edit, my engine don't look exactly like the one in the pics you posted here d6c10k, in fact not much of it looks like anything in my 3306 engine manual. In fact some of the injector pump pics in my book even show a four cylinder injector pump and several different injection systems. These old machines give my Cat parts guy a headache everytime I walk thru his door.
There is a timing plate (8s5417) you can purchase from cat costs about $250ausse dollars. It bolts on where the pump was bolted on. It sets the engine to no.1 tdc. The pump will only go on one way, the drive is off set.
I might be missing something here???, but the fuel charge /transfer pump just pulls off the side of the drive housing without any need to remove the injector pump, it is posible to get a service repair kit for this unit, the kit has Seals Bushings Pressure Valve + Seat and should take about 2 hours to fit, its something you can do sat on the Track, if you have pulled the Injector Pump and Drive off ???, you have a bit of work on to sort things, but it is possible without the Timing Plate, its just a bit of a fiddle, I am thinking the injector pump is the older style Scroll metering unit, with no flat plate on its side (Sleave Metering), the Fuel transfer Pump will just pull off the same on the later flat side Pump (scroll Metering)set ups. any chance of a few pic's tctractors
Chasman, probably a little late, but did you check the little bleed knob on top of fuel housin.? When you pump on your primer, you open the knob so the fuel can bleed out that tube. Had it happen to me once, the knob had come loose and was allowing the fuel to pass out the tube.....started out just drip drip, then turned into running, almost bet thats all your problem was...sorry
Pump timing Chasman, Sounds like you have the scroll type injector pump on this 3306. It's the little skinny type. The sleeve metering pump is the one that D6c10k has posted for you, it's a boxy looking type with a plate on the side of it. The scroll type doesn't have any plate on the side. They're totally different animals altogether, but they're both easy to time. By the way, it is critical to get the pump timed correctly or it can lead to engine failure. Get that flywheel on TDC and put your 3/8 bolt in it to lock it down right where it's 'sposed to be. You really need a service manual, it makes it simple. You can get 'em off Ebay for $20-30. The guys on here can probably talk you thru it. I have timed both type and I have the timing tool that you need for the scroll type, I remember it was kinda pricey when I bought it($225 I think), but probably saved about $1500 that the dealer would charge to come out and do it. You don't need special tools to set the sleeve metering type. I'd be glad to loan you the tool and manuals if you need it, I see you're in central Texas too. I'm west of Waco about 35 miles and north of Austin about 90. Another thing, sounds like your dealer is Holt Cat. They act like they're doing you a favor to sell you their overpriced parts. If I don't need parts right away, I'll drive 120 miles out of my way to get 'em at West Texas Cat or Mustang Cat. Both dealerships act like they want your business where Holt doesn't. I could scan something if you need it.
Transfer pump I got ahead of myself, if it's a scroll type pump you don't have to pull the injector pump to change the transfer pump, it's bolted right to the side of it. I haven't changed a transfer pump on a sleeve metering type, but looking at my 3304 with sleeve metering pump, it looks like the transfer pump is in front of the injector pump in which case you gotta pull it to change. You don't need special tools to retime, just get it on TDC & pop that plate off the front of the engine, take the nut off and pull the gear with a steering wheel puller that you can get from any auto parts store. Then, there's a 1/4" bolt screwed into the side of your injector pump that you unscrew and use as a lock to set the timing by screwing it in to the back of the pump just like you would lock the flywheel down with a bolt. If you have the engine locked down on TDC, just rotate the shaft on the pump till the bolt will slide in the hole in the back of the pump all the way. You can use a 1/4" drill bit to do it too, just make sure it slides in all the way, I think it's about an inch or so. I'm doing this from memory, but I think that's right. Let me know which one you have and I can help more.
A picture of your pump would have been helpfull chasman, the P.C. engine used both Scroll and Sleave Metering style Pumps, the sleave metering unit fits directly into the front chest, with the drive gear bolted to it on a taper fit, you have to get the the gear pulled off to un-bolt/remove the pump, on the earlier style pump which I think you have, you dont have to buy any lock plate to set the pump and aux' drive it can all be done with no service tools as long as you follow the instruction carefully, the timinig pin hole in the Scroll type pump is on the top just in front of No1 injector pump, towards the front of the engine you will see a small plug 5/16th spanner fits it,its a lot of words so confirm what style of pump you have, but you dont have to buy anything to set any Cat Pump. tctractors
Thanks for the tips there d9gdon but you are a little late. I tore the damn thing down way too far to do the job at hand and after I had it all off I found that the fuel transfer pump just bolted onto the side of it. I hate working on stuff when it's not in the shop because if it was at the shop I would have pressure washed the engine first and could have saw where it bolted up, the way it was so caked in dirt and sludge I couldn't tell what was what. Hopefully I can get it all back together and timed correctly, there is a slug that you bolt up to the injector driveshaft which I don't have but maybe I can get the drive gear back on exactly as it came off. On another note if the fuel transfer pump leaks doesn't it also fill the crankcase up with fuel? Looks like the drain hose might not dump all the fuel outside of the engine internals. I should probably just pull the dipstick and see what it looks like. Probably gonna have to pull the bellypans, clean them, change the oil and do it the right way and not get in a hurry. Good to hear you're closeby there d9, I was just up in yer neck of the woods Friday nite, a buddy lost the clutch on his 6.7 Cummins truck and I had to trailer him home. Got a steak dinner out of it at that Hegelsteins (sp?) steakhouse right north on I35 out of Waco and got back before the rain and cold so all was good.
Scroll type pump I bet that steak house was Heitmiller's. Boy is it good. Don't make this too complicated, it's not. I did the same thing you did the first time on a scroll type system. I just told my operator to pull the injector pump without looking at the book first while I went to Dallas to get a new one. I get back with it 5 hours later and we both wonder, where does this thing go? Another operator stopped by to see what was taking so long, then mentions that he didn't have to take the pump off to change one on a D7G. Goes right here dummy. You are going to have to have that timing plate 8S5417 if you took the gear off the shaft, I don't see any way around that. Not sure what you're talking about putting a slug somewhere. If you didn't take the gear off the shaft and didn't turn the engine while pump was off, you can just bolt the pump back to the shaft, it'll only go back on one way cause the tang is offset to one side. I looked it up on Cat parts SIS web and that tool costs $150, they have one in the Waco depot or you can borrow mine. As far as diesel leaking into the oil I don't think so cause that's what that hose is for is to tell you when the seals leaking. It should have another seal to keep diesel out of your oil. I'd change the oil anyway, I know you're out in the field gettin' all kinds of dirt and dust blown into the engine in these 40 MPH wind gusts we've had the last couple of days.
d9gdon , you dont need any plate to bolt on to the pump location, its fairly simple to sort without any special tools, but as you have the Lock Plate, I would think you have the task sorted. tctractors ps the pump you spoke of with the lock pin stored in the side, is a Sleave Metering Style Pump??
Can we just rewind a little because I'm missing something. Tha original post was about fuel leaking from "a hose right where the injector pump bolts up to the backside of the front cover". This to me describes a sleeve metering pump where you have to remove the FIP to repair the transfer pump. Chasman, if you've got a scroll type pump with the transfer pump bolted to the side, where is this hose that is leaking fuel?
This is what I was talking about, it is not a slug but a timing plate, it goes onto the piece that the actual injector pump bolts to. The piece I removed for no apparent reason, not sure what it is called but the transfer pump bolts to it and it's driven by a worm gear off the injector drive shaft. I got the engine locked down with the 3/8 bolt thru the bellhousing and haven't turned the injector pump any after I've pulled it so maybe it will all bolt back together with no problems. The trickiest part is getting the lock tabs and bolts all lined up thru the front cover. Oh yeah and I do have the 3306 engine manual, guess I missed it or it didn't have a whole ton of info on removing the transfer pump. And yes it does appear that I have a scroll pump....
Mass confusion tctractors, The pin I'm talking about that's stored in a sleeve metering style pump is in a 3304 in a 120G motor grader. I assumed the 3306 with same style pump would be the same. The pin is actually stored parallel with the pump about in the middle, right behind the governor control rod. You have to take a bolt out of the side of the pump (where the electric shutoff solenoid is located looks like) to insert the pin to time the pump with the engine. Yes, the timing pin is stored in the pump. I had to do this when I replaced an idler gear bearing between the pump drive gear and the camshaft gear when I overhauled it. I just looked at the service manual to confirm this. If I could post a scan I would. This is a sleeve metering sytem on a PC engine. Now on the scroll type system, I'm going by memory cause I don't have my 627 scraper here with 3306 PC to look at. I was pretty sure there is a drain tube underneath it too, but I'm a parts changer and not a mechanic, by necessity only. Looking at the parts book, there's a drain tube there but I can't tell what it's for, thought it was there to dump fuel when transfer pump went out. But if Chasman's transfer pump was bolted to the side of the injector pump, it's gotta be a scroll type pump. I still don't see how you could time the accessory drive without using the special tool, 8S5417 if you've taken the drive gear off the pump shaft. How do you get this back in time with the engine?
I'm learning a lot. At least I know the difference between a scroll and a sleeve pump. I have a 3304 engine in a Traxcavator and it has the sleeve metering pump on it. As far as my 3306 woes go I still think I can put it all back together damn close to where it came apart at. But,,, D9gdon if you have the tool (timing plate) give me a holler and I will come up there and borrow it from you, I have a turbo to pick up in Waco so maybe we can hook up and I'll even buy you lunch at Heitmiller's.
Leak Wish he would post a picture of "The Leaky Hose" I got a bad feeling that he tore the pump off for no reason. Their is a hose that drains the fuel when you bleed the filter/pump. I got a bad feeling that this is the hose he is talking about. If that is the case he did a lot of work for nothing.
D9gdon , as you know the Pump has off set Tang Drive, it also has a pin lock location just in front of No1 Injector Pump, with the drive gear loose and the pump pinned/locked then fitted to the Acc'y Drive, plus the engine pinned through the correct hole on the correct stroke, it's best to remove the Valve Rocker Cover to be positive of pinning the Fly Wheel on No1 Cylinder,all you have to do is tighten the front gear in the correct method, no lock plate required. tctractors
Pin lock tctractors, No, I didn't know about the pin lock in front of No 1 pump on scroll type, the book shows nothing of it, says to buy special timing plate from Cat and do it that way. I see what you're saying, that's good to know. Chasman, I'll send you directions in an email.
Are you guys aware that there are two different types of scroll pumps. The earlier ones have the locking plate for timing and the "new" type have a pin. The later ones are fitted to the "B" series engines.
Two types of scroll pumps Cmark, No wonder tctractors and I couldn't figure each other out.
d9gdon, this little Fuel leak has been a right mix up from word 1, not wanting to Flog a Horse to Death, but if all else fails I would Spill Time it /Flow set it, off top of my Head its set at 13.5' deg, I have done a few tractors like this and it is simple enough to do, I did keep asking for a picture of chasman's Banger , now in bits, I bet he is sick as a Dog about his parts Machine. tctractors hope the meal is good ??
I got it back together today, d9gdon offered me the timing plate but I gave it a shot without it and it all went fine. The only thing that saved my butt was having the engine locked down and not moving the injector pump after removing it. I put the injector pump on loosely while ensuring evrything was lined up then tightened the big nut on the drive gear end then finished the job. The batteries are getting weak so that's probably the next thing I'll be replacing. I took a few pics and I need to learn how to post them, if I would have posted some pics in the first place I am sure this would have been a lot simpler of a job. I do have one more question, why is there what looks to be a meter on the end of the transfer pump? It is hard to read anymore but it seems to be a strange place for a fuel meter.
Hour meter calculated at an "average RPM"
Rehashing an old post. My D5 94J is having the same issue with fuel coming out the drain hose. Question is: do I need to pull the injector pump to fix this leak? Also posted a picture. Thanks!
I'm thinking you may be correct. I also have had them open while operating.
So if that hose is made for bleeding the fuel lines. Would that mean a ball valve or something like that has failed? I have opened and closed the top air screw a few times, in hopes of it resealing but it still leaks.
sorry to bring this oldie back up, but im having the same problem. There is a hollowed out tube underneath the hours meter a little towards the block that is leaking on a 96J D5, looks just like the picture NoBudgetMining posted above. Is there a simple O-ring in there that could be leaking? Otherwise, assuming everything internal is kosher, what is the point of this valve if not to be able to open and close it to let fuel out? Meaning if its leaking, isn't it just the bleed valve that is failing? Otherwise, wouldn't that valve hold back a failure in the transfer pump yall have been describing if its functioning correctly? The leak happens running or not, so it's not under pressure. I've been looking for some kind of schematic for this part but haven't found anything yet. I'm still holding out hope its just a simple o-ring? This started after I had to drop the cup on the initial fuel screener held on by that banjo ring as rust had eaten a hole in the metal cup, so I welded that back up and replaced the screen and that stopped that leak, but as soon as I started it back up (with no doubt a ton of air in the line) I see this new leak. I figured I was going to have to bleed the fuel system after having all that air in there, but I just let fuel run out of the cup for a bit before snugging it up to the O-ring trying to purge as much of the air I could there and it fired right up, but then this other leak started.... Thanks everyone.
here is the leaking valve in question that is under the fuel pump in line with the hour meter (with bonus timed pic of fuel droplet!) And here is what the whole thing looks like if any guidance as I'm not sure which system I have here to match up with what posts. Thanks!
It's all in the s/n's. Early 96J's have the D333C engine with transfer pump behind the service meter. Same symptoms with leakage from the pump seal cavity. Transfer pump can be removed without affect the injection pump. Uses two lip type shaft seals unlike early pumps that used cone shaped packing. You will want to change the service meter shaft seal as well while your in there.
My serial is 96J2655 is you have the ability to identify what system I have. Thanks so much for your help. The CAT dealer I called seemed to not have much interest in helping me and kept saying his records for something that old are inconclusive.... guess I should call another dealer.
s/n confirms it. The 96J didn't get the 3306 until s/n 3588. That's a typical dealer response on the old stuff. You need to have part numbers in hand when you go shopping.
does anyone happen to know the part numbers of the lip seals for my d333c transfer pump so I can try and get new ones? any info laying around out there as far as how to change them out? The service manual I have is for everything on the tractor except for the engine... and the engine book I have is for the 3306 not the 333c (thats what came with it when I bought it). thanks everyone!
Meant to post this above, but I called the cat dealer and asked about the lip seals and the guy (in a hurry to get me off the phone...) sent me this schematic which he says is of the transfer pump for my serial number and said to identify the parts I need from it and call back. I don't readily see the seals on here (is it the blowout labeled #6?), but I also have no idea what I am looking for, nor do I see the little discharge tube underneath that is the source of my leak in the photo above. Is this tube part of the transfer pump or something else? Thanks everyone for you help, sorry im so clueless but this machine is still pretty new to me.
That 3306 book will most likely work. Bob
6 and 7 Bob
so I need two of #6 and two of #7? And a #17 to replace the service meter seal while im at it? Thanks so much. Also curious, How did you know #7 was a seal from that schematic?
Read page 2 .That and I've done this a time or two. Bob
omg I didn't even notice page 2.... what an idiot. thank you!
blast from the past on this thread.... so I ordered the new seals I needed then couldn't figure out how to actually replace them as I didn't have the tools I needed to get the old ones out, so I put in a brand new transfer pump I found for cheap that is already leaking as bad as the 50 year old one... I am assuming I did in fact fix the original problem as it made it about 50 hours with no leaks, but went out to day to a huge diesel stain on the ground under the tractor and see the same drip drip drip that spurred the original thread. Can't believe the seal would have gone out this quickly, even if it was a crappy replacement part, but I guess it was just that and I will try again with the factory seals and the original part that I still have, unless anyone has any other ideas on why it could have failed again so soon. Thanks!!