Full hydraulic breakdown……every component replacement or tear down, clean, and reseal. This machine has a major contamination failure happening. What would you charge to do this kind of job?
I have no idea what the components would cost new, but I'd think time would be probably close to 150 hours? Maybe that's light? Do you have a hydraulic shop close by to break the cylinders down? How about the travel motors? Holy hell, I'm getting sick just thinking about it.
Having done two drill rigs with issues like this I’m guessing 200 hours labor. I took a look at some component pricing, pump, drives, swing etc. Added in my best guess for seal kits, hoses, kidney machine etc and I was at $85k
Ritchie Bros. or purplewave. There's always optimists out there.
Or, as our resident pessimist would say (he won't see this, he doesn't care about yellow iron) Get the big snipper out.
Do you know what component(s) actually failed yet ? I‘ll say 150 hours . Need a lot of space, that’s a sh*t of load of parts to trip over.
Anything to do with LMM ? Joe H
Even if not directly Joe, I'm guessing indirectly through lack of maintenance etc.. Cant help with your problem v, good luck.
No
Use OEM parts pricing on 2 final drive motors, 1 complete main pump, 1 complete main control valve, and a new swing motor. Add in labor costs of replacing those components, plus the labor to break down each cylinder for cleaning and reseal, same with the rotary manifold. Don’t forget about the pilot system also. Numerous hose replacements at my discretion. Here is some help……..my cost on the pump and the main control valve from my Deere dealer is around $60k at OEM.
We have a catastrophic failure 210GLC in the shop right now. I believe the estimate for this one is in the neighborhood of $150,000+.
Won't all the pilot/ relief seats and needles be beat out of it and bypassing? If its got that much contamination, you could have pistons scoring barrels, that rotary could be bad, as well as the whole control valve stack. There could be more bad than good, and you won't know until you open it all up. 15 years or so ago there was a 230-275ton crane vandalized at a jobsite, somewhat locally. The company ran the machine before discovering the hyd. system contaminated. Ended up disassembling the machine, and rebuilt it at the Grove dealer, insurance company was paying the bill. I think it was at the grove dealer for over a year, with a $800,000 repair bill. It went to essentially salvage auction, because after reassembly, it still had boom pinning issues, and I think random suspension issues. I'd probably truck it to a ritchie bros, that way their company name isn't attached to it, or a Yoder Frey etc. Purplewave your company name is still attached. I just wouldn't want the phone calls complaining about the machine. With ritchie, its gone. To repair- I think it will take at least a month to two months, with delays for parts, and you'll likely need a hand for some or most of it. Are you resealing all the cylinders yourself, or are they going to a shop? Better get to cleaning up that shop space...
I'm quoting this as myself doing all the work with no subs. All OEM parts, seals, etc..... When you think you have your final numbers, post them up. I want to see where you are at on this type of thing and how close you would be to my quote. Another thing to consider. My insurance will NOT cover parts supplied by the customer.........so NO parts charged to them. I will have to carry the cost myself. I can't invest (say 100K) over weeks or months and not make anything off of it. Make sure you add some type of percentage. Another another thing LOL......I don't want to do this job BUT, I don't want to do a NO QUOTE. There will still be NO WARRANTY since you cannot clean a machine like this and get 100%. I know it would be ridiculous and stupid in my opinion to go this far with this machine, and I noted this on the quote I sent. So..........don't forget to add your "discouragement" factor. I need a hard final number from you guys!
It surprises me that it makes $ense to rebuild a machine like that. Your essentially buying the machine again (depending on its year and how many hours it had at time of melt down).
Unfortunately, the decision has already been made to not repair it. It is being reassembled as is. I guess the customer is probably going to auction it off.
It will end up being a thread on here LOL
I'm a bit surprised that the pilot system was not protected by the pilot filters in a case like this.
It may be.........but I, as a repair contractor that stands behind my work, can't take that gamble.
Get a price for a new machine add 10000 They call me easy money! In all reallity is the machine worth in good shape what this would cost to do the repair
Quote them $200k and have done with it.....!!
Friend just had a Cat 308 done same with 1500 hours on warranty. It had only 1 months warranty left when a swing motor bearing failed. Every hose had to be changed along with everything V-Tech said. He figured the repair cost more than the unit was worth. Bought new warranty for 1500 hours and will dump before warranty is done. Simon C
3/4 the cost of new
Travel motors - $20k Swing motor - $7k Seal kits and hydraulic shop - $5k Labor - 200 hrs @ $150/hr $30k Ballpark $125,000 Machine worth maybe $75k? Set it on fire.
Oxy lance, and leave nothing over 3' in any direction (for #1 heavy prices)
This is one of those jobs where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I know some folks who've literally just replaced the failed component, cleaned out the hydraulic tank, spun on new filters, dumped in fresh oil and sent it without any issues. I've also seen first hand the kind of havok just 1 piece of debris floating around can cause. Don't blame you one bit for wanting to stay away from this job.
I quoted $180K+. They have already told me they are looking at trading it off. Now, what would be a fair trade or sale value? Machine paint and sheet metal is good, 8800 hours. All functions do work, nothing hydraulically sticking.......just weak on power and speed.
that's just enough don't need too much just as long as it's able to amble/drag it's self to the guillotine.
When I was at Deere I did a 350GLC and it took 4 weeks to complete the job and about 150k out the door. It cost so much money when a hydraulic failure like this happens especially to do it right and if it is not done right it can damage the new components! I have seen insurance companys just total the machine out instead of fixing them because of the time and money it cost! Hopefully this helps and let me know if you need anything else. Thanks, Kevin
^another Deere expert!? Just what we needed lol Just kidding my friend! Welcome to the zoooooo
On all seriousness if I owned it i would budget 200 grand rebuild it completely and see if the motor needed repowered you would have a new machine component wise all new hoses and do pins and bushings and so for 2/3rd the value of a brand new one you got a machine that should go another 8000 hours and a company that size could write that all off in one year no problem The down side is that it would be down 4 months minimum
Oh forsure on the repower. Those 210G's will run a long time as long as you keep the over head valve lash done. I've got a couple of clients that have several 210G's they have 12k and 14k hours on them and they have original engine and pumps etc. When you price a new 210 man they are high! Sounds like you got a plan.
ide like to know what a brand new 210 costs.
Looks like $272,000 to $300.00 depending on how you spec it out. Is what they want for a new one.
Probably best to just right it off. I could see problems if it was put in an auction and there were major known issues. It would be pretty hard for the seller to claim that they knew nothing about major problems. Some things you can claim negligence but major issues with all the hydraulics is pretty hard to say "we had no idea anything was wrong with it." It could be considered gross misrepresentation. RB's wouldn't take kindly to having to give a refund and it has happened before. Someone on the welding web bought a Miller XMT350 welder. Hooked it up and nothing worked. They took the cover off and the electronic boards were completely fried. RB's refunded the purchase price and I think banned the consignor from selling anything else as well as buying anything. I can't remember if they sued for the lost revenue or requested it from the consignor. If there was a disclaimer like mechanics special or hyd's. need attention gives a potential buyer a warning. RB's will readily give the name and often a contact number of a consignor.
In its current running condition it would fetch at least 1/3 cost of new at auction. They could then add the other 2/3ds and have an actual new one. They would likely have it in service sooner as well.
Auctions are very dangerous that's forsure. I do alot of equipment inspections at auctions here in Texas. There's a bunch of crooked people that don't mind burning people!
Well, if RB is too picky they can send it to the Nitke auction in Wausau, WI. Anything goes there, running, not running, looking like it fell off a cliff . . . "As is, Where is".
Some auctions are real sketchy but gross negligence is a real thing. It could be a good parts machine though. Engine and undercarriage could be worth decent money among other things.
I always say there is a reason why the machine is at a auction either end of life for it and end of a project. Yeah good point on a parts machine. I've bought a parts machine from RB once and worked out well.
Or like the late-ish model Cat Multi Terrain Loader not long ago that was faulting electronically all over the place. When diagnosed it turned out that a drive motor had been replaced and someone had installed the FWD/REV hoses reversed at the motor end..........
Geez got to love idiots!!!!
What can be done to prevent a catastrophic failure of the hydraulic system other than filtration?
Depends. Was the failure due to negligence or accidental?
Make sure your changing the filters every 1000 hours and the hydraulic oil every 3000 hours. I know Deere says you can do it every 4000 hours but I have found the 3000 hour mark is the best for the hydraulic system. Make sure you have no leaking cylinders because if oil can get out then water and contamination can get into your hydraulic system and can cause a pump failure. Hope this helps. Tried not to make the answer to long sorry if it is.
Don't run components past their planned working life. Use quality lubricants and filters. Do PM's on time. Don't run fluids over their planned change period. Keep systems clean both inside and out.
This is a hard one for me. When every piece a guy has is an integral part of a small puzzle, every 1000 hours is a big deal. Those dollars after a certain point are the profit, especially for guys like me that generally are the second, third, or even fourth owners.
I hear you on that. But the filters you Change every 1000 hours not the hydraulic oil. The hydraulic oil gets changed every 3000 hours. But also if you can curve a major component failure the maintenance payed you in full and saved you money!
You don't always know when something is going to fail. It just does. Not everyone can afford to just replace or rebuild components because they hit a certain number of hours. All machines aren't run under the same conditions either. A machine working in light conditions all it's life will most likely last longer than one that's had a hard life.
Nobody ever said it was easy, but even 2nd, 3rd, & 4th owners need to be ware of what they're getting into and at least have some idea in their head of when to pull the trigger on components.
By that point does it matter. Give it a decent amount of love and maintance. If it dies it dies they all come to a end at some point for some reason.
What is the planned working life on hydraulic components on construction equipment? I don't imagine I am going to hit the 18,000 hour overhaul mark you might find in a big mine with stuff I put 350 hours a year on. How do you anticipate overhauls on stuff that isn't bought new and run 24 hours a day?
I think it's been said numerous times on here that 10-12k hours it becomes prudent to replace the pumps on an excavator. My Challenger tractors are getting the hydraulic pumps replaced this winter, my tractor that I've had since 6000 hours now has 12k, my other two are at 6k and did not get the maintenance they required.
If previous maintenance has been sketchy or non-existent then I would say 10-12k is a good number. Maybe for a known machine you could up that estimate. For larger machines working 24/7/365 the components tend to be larger and last longer. 20k is not unusual.
My former neighbor claimed to get close to 30,000 hours on older and newer excavators. Pumps lasted longer than engines.
You have to go by previous history. If there is none, assume the worst case scenario. Assume worst case with anything from an auction.
My former neighbor claimed to get close to 30,000 hours on older and newer excavators. Pumps lasted longer than engines. I seen some older 1 man Komatsu 300 size excavators in 1990 era with 25-35000 hours on original pumps. Machines ran at lower pressures then, and some operators rarely go over relief. It depends on lots of factors. Simon C
One of the machines my neighbor mentioned was a Komatsu of that Era. It was a 300 or a 400. The other was a machine from the early 70's.
If you got an excavator with 12k on the cock and you count on it the price if a pump when scheduled will look really cheap than having a machine die in the middle of a job under the gun
I think there's generally signs a pump or drive motor has issues. That is if you're keeping up on the maintenance.
That requires operators that can Identify a problem by vibration noise or performance and really it's not that the operators are idiots most lack the technical knowledge to read the symptoms and very few have the experience to know what's a problem and what's not so turn up the radio At big outfits different guys are running different machines all the time because there being moved around so much based on jobs labor needs go up and down really fast
Or the operator's concerns fall on deaf ears.......
Oh come on the owner or manager would never try to squeeze a nickel passed components life why would they want to be cheap
I would think on bigger jobs the same operator would be running the same machine for the duration. Good experienced operators would notice changes in the way a machine operates but it all depends on the maintenance practices of the machine owner. Better ones would investigate even slight changes right away and would do regular oil samples. Cheaper outfits would ignore minor problems to the point they become major problems. Most times there are indications there may be an issue. Operators should be trained/told to report any differences in the operation of a machine.
Humm-----this thing is apparently not scrapped yet, Hop Sing in Bonanza says {Chop Chop}. * Need a vid of it under the knife.