Been looking into this somewhat lately before they take away the option, not really what I had in mind though, was thinking more along the line of putting a completely mechanical engine into a new or newer truck, doesn't sound like that's an option with a glider kit though, they want to do the early electronic engines into a new chassis. Anyone gutted a newer truck or even one with an electronic engine and put a 855 cummins mechanical into one and if so, how did you do it and how does it work? Just toying around with the idea a little, not sure I want to start over with a complete restoration on say a 359 pete and go from there, would like a newer 379 or a KW and retrofit with a completely mechanical 855 and a new 13 or 18 speed behind it, triple axle and I'm not into the chrome at all, its not my thing, just a flat out workhorse that's simple and effective. Have also been toying around with an automatic of some sort in a heavy haul truck, seen a few with 16 speed automatics, anyone had one before, used one or been around one, worth looking into or not??
The harness to make the dash work is the biggest part. This guy knows how [URL="http://www.mawkindustries.com/[/URL] Another major problem is when the feds make sure all of the gliders are up to the emission standards for that year of manufacture. Then what ya gonna do? Personally I find cream puffs from out west, go through em and make some bucks. If you have big coins to spend I wouldn't hesitate a minute ordering up a rolling glider and slipping in a red top N14 or 6NZ or 12.7 detroit.
I was under the impression the emissions were based off the ENGINE year of manufacture, not the chassis, but I haven't investigated it enough to know for sure. I was still thinking about putting a mechanical engine in a chassis at least 20 plus years newer, not a brand new truck per say, but just asking questions just the same.
ya n14 all the way I would not mess with a mechanical at all
Where I work we have 20 over the road gliders. All are Freightliner Coronado's powered by 550 hp- 1850 torque S60-Detroits. 2004 DDEC4 engines. Very good power plant. Very strong jakes. The gliders came with engine and rear suspension. We bought Weller RTLO18913A's and used Eaton 404's. We run drop axles so the frames are 7/16" thick rail. Most right now are in the 425K mile range and they have been really pretty good trucks. A grain company we do outside repair for also bought 3 gliders. SD version Coronado's with same spec's only there day cabs. I used to be a cat, cummins only person. But I have to say the S60 at 550 is a very good engine. Our GVW is 99'000 lbs and we run mountain passes constantly. Our trucks get run pretty hard. For the money these gilders have performed real well. And we also are running 12 new Cascadia models with 515 hp DD15's. Some with 13spd's and the DD12 automatics so far they have been good. And the fuel mileage is averaged at 5.7 at 99'000 lbs. That's good fuel economy for operating in the northwest. Truck Shop
Glad you started this thread Randy, I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. I have thought of finding a low mile 15year old kw or pete. In the long run it would be worth it to me to pay a little more for a nice one. I would like to learn more about glider kits also. Steve
Mechanical engines are bulletproof, but it's pretty hard to beat a 430/460/525 red top. Basically the same engine as a mechanical 855 except for injectors and you get cruise. Not that it's that important for driving but it nice to tap the cruise to idle it up. It's not hard to sort out the electrical either.
I can't speak for gliders but I do like automatics. I have not heard much good about the automated manuals that I think the 16 speed you might be referring to is though. Just get a regular 4000 series Allison, 6 speeds is all it needs to get the job done, unless you think you absolutely need the 7th granny low. Also if you go that route you can get a granny low reverse. I like to say that automatics save on repairs, no more bent/worn forks, clutches to adjust or replace, gears ground down by mistaken shifts, synchronizers to wear out, drive shafts twisted off, and shifts uphill are possible in places a manual can't do it. But I don't know what you are doing with the truck.
The only things I can think of is what are the rules on licencing for over the road use a truck in your state? Would this truck be considered a "new"truck and need to meet current standards. Or would it be considered a salvage and only need to meet the standards for the truck the components came from and how do you prove that?
I plan on using it for a lowboy tractor and all around use semi, from end dump, grain hopper, belly dump you name it we pretty much do it now, the most we gross out at is about 130,000 or so, but most times we're below 100,000 lbs. Just never been in or around an automatic before in a semi. I don't put many miles on a semi each year, but we're using it constantly it seems. I do like the 13 speeds myself, but there are times it would be nice not to have do the shifting anymore and the constant clutch adjusting it seems we do, so yes sort of looking at the less maintenance end I guess you could say. Yes I was looking at the 16 speed manual shift automatics to start with, haven't heard much good to be said for them, but again never driven or been around one personally so that didn't last long for my search, now its more towards the Alison's. I know quite a few that use and own them in the mid range trucks and love them, but nobody seems to know anything about those in the larger semi tractors. Cruise isn't a big deal to me, I seldom ever have a long haul, where its straight and long enough to worry about, I'm more towards the hills and gravel type operation, short runs, always turning type driving. I have one semi now with cruise, don't think I've used it more than a hand full of times in the last 10 years and that didn't amount to a few hours of use total. The more I look at trucks, the more I'm convinced most anything for sale is either overpriced or worn out beyond repair, then to get what I want on a truck, the way I'm seeing it, is I might as well buy a chassis and cab I'd like to own for the next 20 years and start over from the ground up, put in the engine and transmission, rear ends, front axle and build what I'm wanting. But what I'm wanting is a cummins 855 mechanical and most of those chassis are already 30 plus years old, rusted/rotted out cabs and it goes downhill from there. I was thinking about using a cab and chassis say 10 years old and then put on and in what I'd like and need for my operation, which brought about the idea of a glider kit, not a whole lot different than ordering a truck to spec for what I'm wanting, was just wondering if anyone had done it, was it worth it, or just buy a used one somewhat setup and finish it up and run that. I'm not ruling out anything, just hashing over ideas and so I asked here, what others have done to get a triple axle truck, sliding fifth wheel, heavy front axle, heavy rears, slightly longer wheel base than a twin screw, heavy clutch or automatic, gearing that works for me instead of over the road haulers, heavy driveline, single line and twin line wet kits, chain racks, day cab and the list goes on and on
Randy your right everything that is decent is overpriced the other half is clapped out. The way you are talking it sounds like you know what you need and want. Why not find a mixer truck with a L10 or M11. Dump the motor and trans out and slide in your 855 and rtoo14613 or put a skirt on with your auto. I did this with my T800 dump some years back. It was basically a free swap once I sold the L10. Find a parts truck for the correct motor mounts and radiator plumbing. The harness is the same. PS pump was different.
Randy Look in CA for a truck. Mixers would be a good choice. There are many in good shape selling cheap due to CARB. No rust, strong frame, and put in the running gear you want. You can get a good used one here for the price of a rusted, clapped out truck back east.
:falldownlaugh
Mixers are getting rare these days in this area as the front discharge are taking over,I can't remember the last time I saw an conventional backup mixer on the road.Ron G
Out here in rural California conventional mixers are all that you ever see. They may have the big ones in the city but I don't see many of them. The drivers are just expected to get the small ones into some crazy places and they really do, too. They just dispatch more of them if it is a big job.
All it takes is one company to convert to the front discharge and there goes the neighborhood.The ready mix suppliers band together and outlaw the purchase of the new technology and as long as noone backs out you won't see them. I drove the backup mixers for over 10 years and we were the last holdouts in this area until we found 5 used Advance mixers to start us out and we never looked back.There is really no comparison to the old mixers,from a drivers point of view or the form contractors perspective.You only need one man to pour footings and the truck can go where the backup trucks cannot even dream of.All you need is the potential promise of getting a front discharge on your job site,especially once you have a taste of what they can do and you have a reason to drop the dime at a provider that has them in their fleet.Ron G
Ron could you elaborate more on why the front discharge is so much better, I get the visibility would be far better and also the control from the cab, but how could it get around so much better, most front discharge mixers are so much larger and longer, how does that translate into getting around better? Are they balanced better, more weight, more traction, or what is it? As they say educate us, inquiring minds would like to know, they are not at all popular in my area.
All they have around Indianapolis are front discharge. I can't see why anyone would want the rear discharge unless your just dumping into a pump.
Front discharge mixers may be longer but not by much and I bet the wheelbase is quite a bit shorter. Visibility of the entire process (other than leaving) is obviously much better with a front discharge. Also, with some weight off the truck to make a little less top heavy you can really get the front tires over the bank just a bit for reach. The weight on the rear wheels keeps you fairly stable. I don't think I would get nearly as close/over the bank with the rear wheels. Also, by going forward into the job you can get a little more 'run' at it if the ground is wet or steep. I would say the advantage is huge on residential work and slight on commercial work.
On glider kits, I think they are a great idea. I looked into it last year at this time to build a new 389 Pete with a 3406E or N14. There are a lot of advantages, non emission engine being the most obvious, but also Federal excise tax advantages too. You need to use two major components out of a donor truck to get the credit you need, then your emissions is by the model year of that engine. The only reason I did not go that route is Pete had a 5 month wait at the time and then I still had to build it. That would mean it would put the project in our busy season and it would not have been utilized at all in 2015.
I've only seen rear discharge mixers on one or two highway projects. I've never seen one at a redimix plant or anywhere else. I can't even imagine not having front discharge mixers. Are the old style 6 wheel drive? Does the driver stay in the cab and a concrete guy does the unloading?
In my opinion, kits are the only way to go. I build several a year and would like to do a lot more. I rebuild the components as I install, so it's like new, when I'm done. They just seem to make a lot of sense over a new truck
Allison auto is the only way to go. I have 2 2007 mack granites ctp713 tractors mp-7 405 hp. one with about 260,000 miles on it and has only ever pulled a 4 axle roll off trailer it its gets put through hell every day the only reason I keep them is because of the Allison's.they are not quite enough HP.but you only need the 6 speed the 7 speed has to be manually put in low gear. a lot of the super heavy haul trucks especially the multiple push truck's are Allision's because they naturally sync up and pull together. with the torque convertor the power is extremely multiplied on the low end.they take off the same at 110,000pds as at 70,000pds. The only time that I notice them lacking over a manual is on top end at interstate speed's but they are only geared to run 75mph. there was a truck in the Louisville KY truck show last year that an older gentleman had custom build it was a cab over FORD with an 60 series and a Allision behind it he ran over the road and loved it. I was looking/asking all the glider people there about building a glider kit like you are talking about with an Allision to pull the rolloff trailer and also a quad axle dump truck but nobody seemed interested don't even bother to call fitzgerald in Tennessee all they will talk about is what different color you want. From what I have gathered and the people I have talked to that have built their own gliders you are better off and cheaper to find a good cab and hood and just get some new frame rails and start building if you have the time the California mixer truck sounds like a good idea
Randy Here are some I found, here in CA, and some in TX. https://www.rbauction.com/1996-PETERBILT-357-TA?invId=8807541&id=ci&auction=LOS-ANGELES-CA-2016165 https://www.rbauction.com/1989-KENWORTH-W900-TA?invId=8807803&id=ci&auction=LOS-ANGELES-CA-2016165 https://www.rbauction.com/1998-PETERBILT-357-TriA?invId=8806185&id=ci&auction=FORT-WORTH-TX-2016199 Texas seems to have a lot of tri axles, while nearly all CA trucks are tandem with boosters. Here is a link to what they have sold recently for here in SoCal https://www.rbauction.com/Mixer-Tru...yKzQyOTQ5NjIzMjYrNDI5NDY4MTIwMSs0MjkzNzI5MDA5 Keep in mind while you are doing this, the mandate for elogs in trucks starting in 2 years. 1999 and older are EXEMPT from the requirement, and for a small operation this is huge. A glider will be required to run them, but a clean 1999 or older truck has become more valuable.
Randy,I am glad I took the time to read the rest of the post before I made my case as most everything has been covered now. I am going to take some liberties here,I am old now and all you drivers will know right where I am coming from.Every company has one or two drivers that are in demand when the job site has those tough spots to get in and just that little extra skill will be kind to the contractor and the equipment.Well,I had done it long enough and knew the contractors and of course they knew me so we each could take advantage of the other and job site conditions to make things go as smooth as conditions would allow and everyone was happy,the turnaround time was good and everyone was happy. The front discharge in effect made just about every driver one of the good guys.It really takes a lot of experience to see how good they are but you can watch somebody else and how they did it and it will rub off on you and the contractor learns too.It is a win win for everybody. We fought it Randy as I said,we were all Mack for many years and I would still take a Mack for anything else.Mack also had a front discharge with the engine right behind the cab,I lost touch with the Mack version,it looked like they might have had issues with weight and balance but I have no right to say that because I don't know.Ron G
This is becoming a great discussion on both concrete trucks and also gliders, thanks for all the input. First the Allison auto's, anyone know some history, what models were good what bad, what age are worth buying or did they only ever make just one for a heavy truck with no update's or changes? Next the mixer truck idea, I'd never given this a thought before this thread, I'm starting to warm up fast to it though as a chassis. On the subject of mixer trucks, since its mostly a closed operation where they keep others out of the business, the few that dominate the area have been buying new rear discharge trucks. The front unloads are in the major city areas around me I've noticed, for rural area's there are none, not sure if its due to most of the concrete in rural area's goes into pumper trucks and it doesn't really matter or what the reason is. As for drivers of most any concrete truck.......................all I can say is I was about to buy a volumetric mixer for my own jobs just so I didn't have to deal with any of the drivers, still haven't ruled this idea out. Keep the input coming, like to hear from more that have done it, after the fact would you do it again??
I haven't poured out of a rear discharge in over 20 years . We can thank the Irving boys for that . They actually designed the first front discharge mixer . https://www.irvmat.com/aboutus.asp
On the auto subject a company I worked with in the early 2000's had 2 brand new heavy spec pete 379 long hood quad dumps. C16 600 and auto's grossing 63k+. They were only good for pavement as off road the extra drag made so much heat in the transmission every bell and light was on after a round or two. When the PTO goes kaput it also takes out the entire tranny on a auto. Then you go back to the 80's trucks where a turbo charged cigarette lighter (3208T) could rip apart at HT750 in a few weeks if you didn't COMPLETELY STOP before changing direction. On the other side, nowadays I see more and more auto's in the heavy dump industry and they seem to be holding up. On site and on road. The cycle times are way faster, no waiting for the motor to come down to shift. But who uses all 13 gears when you are empty or loaded for that matter? 2 old farts that I used to run with have bought new auto trucks and love them (laziness) but hate the constant emission and sensor problems that come up every month. Oh and they are always complaining about too much fuel usage compared to a manual truck of same spec. When doing the auto thing I think the new units are light years ahead of the units of my heyday. But I don't think you could adapt new auto to old school engine without a ECM nightmare. Unless that red head 525 was in front of it maybe... Some EPA mandate crap on emissions and gliders. July 2015 http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420f15904.pdf
Sitting on the couch sick looking at a good way to neuter a truck with a automatic. Then I find stuff like this. 4700RDS very impressive, look at the over and underdrive ratios along with the power, torque and retarder specs. Keep in mind it weighs more than a traditional transmission. 1220 lbs auto 670 lbs manual http://www.allisontransmission.com/...eries-brochure-sa3743en_final_lr.pdf?sfvrsn=4 I have a factory built not a homemade RTOO 14613 with a .62 overdrive and a lower than low low hole (12.68)19.52 overall. It is very impressive to be just barely crawling @2100 but still go fast enough to go well over 100mph (130ish) with LP22.5 and 3.55's The 4700 has almost identical capabilities plus a 600hp retarder! I'd roll this auto but I wouldn't be wearing a skirt. It would be a kilt. All of the old models and a timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Transmission
I'd like to take issue with some of the problems stated here. No disrespect intended. Coolers can be speced to handle this and also maybe the transmission should have been a 7 speed or had 1st gear lockup enabled. Seems like a specification issue to me. You may have a point there, I can't speak to that personally. With the modern transmissions I was specifically instructed by the Allison engineer that if backing down a steep hill for instance you could leave the transmission in forward and even goose the throttle to help rather than jamming on the brakes harder in reverse. I did this a lot myself and I never really even saw a spike in transmission oil temperature. If you are moving too fast the transmission will not let you change direction anyway nowadays. Most of the time the auto is cited as having more efficient fuel usage because it keeps the engine in a more optimal range than a manual where you are always jackhammering the throttle. I don't know if that is true because we all know no 2 truck engines are the same or even similar even if they have sequential serial numbers and the same CPL. I wonder if above fuel economy change was noticed when switching from older fuel efficient trucks to new smoggers. Just speculation. You would have to try swapping an auto and manual on the same truck to know for sure and who wants to do that. You can adapt a mechanical engine to a modern computer automatic with simple electronic adapters that Allison makes, at least you could a few years ago but I keep wondering if that option is going to disappear because how many do you think they ever actually sell? Nevertheless I would not be surprised to see it still available as Allison seems to be a customer focused organization. There they go again, good enough is never good enough, even though 98% of trucks follow their adgenda they have to go out and try to find that last 2%, and what measurable effect does anyone think that will have on actual air pollution but it is more about the "principle" of the thing to them I guess.
Also I would not get a retarder for whoever is reading, it adds a lot of that weight and is hard on oil coolers which can then cross contaminate the transmission oil with engine coolant. Rather just get a Jake brake engine and keep it turning fast by manually downshifting the Allison as necessary. It is so much easier than trying to downshift a stick over and over coming to a stop sign at the bottom of a hill or something that pops up in front of you wondering if you are going to have enough times to rev into the next lower gear, as the truck is picking up speed in neutral, all the while having to take your foot off the brake to mash the throttle, with an Allison this all happens at once.
Not to change the discussion again, but since we're on the subject of automatics, can anyone shed light on the concept of using electric motors on each wheel of a semi, I've seen some experimenting done on this, uses a much smaller engine and no transmission at all, no driveline and its basically a similar setup to a railroad locomotive, anyone ever seen this, how does it work, has it been given up on or are they still working on it? I recall something about being told it maybe had a four cylinder engine rated at 100 hp or something like that to gain fuel efficiency??
While on the subject of engine brakes, years back cat made a engine retarder of sorts that went on the driveline somehow, is this how the one for the Allison works, is it along the same principle??
Retarders worked well but they have a tendency of leaks and are heavy. The jakes made to day are real strong and are the simplest and very reliable way for extra braking. Plus the jake is easy to service.
An oil retarder works by having a cavity with rotating fins alongside stationary fins and fills it with oil as commanded which is very quiet and effective. However as you can imagine now the forward energy of the truck is being dumped into the transmission oil (Allison) or the engine oil (Cat Brakesaver) and it gets hot fast. It has also been known to be hard on transmission oil coolers which are kind of fragile and made of thin brass and solder which can crack and you do not want trans oil and antifreeze to mix, ever. Also they are quite heavy since they are about the size of another 1/3 of a transmission. A downside or upside depending on how you look at it is a trans oil cooler is much more effective at high speed since it is usually on the output shaft so it spins in time with road speed. So as you go slower it gets less effective. A Jake brake is the opposite, it is geared so the slower you go the more effective it gets if you keep engine RPM high. (Allison did make input shaft retarders but I don't know if they are still available and I have never seen one, and the Cat brakesaver is in this boat) I like a Jake brake because weight is minimal and nothing gets heated up other than the air going through the engine. Also mufflers these days are so great you can hardly tell when it is on.
Then the Cat's meow is to have both Jake brakes AND a retarder, like I have on the 3406E in my heavy haul. Best of both worlds. Use the jakes on long downhills, and feed in retarder as needed, and have the retarder for in town where jakes are outlawed.
Exactly! You start getting heavy or in the hills and a extra set of brakes is welcome. A old style retarder can be feathered, this helps offroad on downhill deceleration bumps where the brakes just lock a wheel and the jake might be too much or too little. Who cares about the durability. Run it for 3-5, throw it away and buy a new one. Would anybody want to own any of this new stuff without a warranty?
For my taste a Jake with 2 or 3 stages plus an automatic to control what gear you are in is good enough to modulate over a retarder but each application has different demands and I won't deny that a Jake + retarder combo does work very well.
Randy , with all the trucks for sale on the market verses what you want ? You may very well be better off to buy an early to mid 1990's truck with mechanical engine set up the way you like and restore as needed . They really haven't changed that much over the years . Buy a brand that has good parts support on older trucks for the cab items .
That's what I was looking at doing when I still ran trucks OTR (5 yrs ago). I was figuring $80,000 to buy a $10-15,000 truck, rebuild/replace engine/clutch/tranny/rear ends (as/if needed), paint exterior, thoroughly clean interior and (if engine/tranny out) then replace/rebuild wiring harness. Could do the driveline as needed, but then could have unplanned downtime. Andrew
I suppose it just depends on owners ability to do most of the work there self on a project like that . If time is a big issue ? Good facility to work in ? Randy has a fresh remodel job on the shop that turned out nice . Myself would probably try to hit somewhere in between , try to find a clean older truck that needs a little TLC . Spotted a couple W 900's on truck paper . http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=5366589 http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6615171
Randy pm me about 359 Thanks divedigger