So I made my mind up to go union operator, talked with the hall and I have two options. One, is to get in thru the apprentice program, mind you that its a 4 hour drive to the training site. Two, is to verify my resume and pay my dues and get placed on the "d" list. The d list is the last to be called btw. Once I get called, If I make 11 days I have to buy a book, $500. At any point after that I can test on 3 pieces and move to the "b" list. Oh, and I'm laid off till warm weather from a small non union outfit, and until I work 11 days union, I can keep working non union. Now I'm 27, grew up on a farm, and have been in construction since I left the navy when I was 21. Proficent on loaders, backhoes, dozers, scrapers.... ok in an excavator. Now I live in the heart of the marcellis shale area in Pa, and they are telling us that work is going to go boom this spring. Pipelines, storage fields, compressor stations.... the works. What would you do if you had to do it over again?
opcorn
What local is that? 66? It's hard to give advice because it seems their hiring works very differently than ours around here. We don't have different lists here. (Only different ones for different areas.) The only advice I could think of is try to find local people who you know have experience working in your area, and ask them in person. You really have to take what people say on the internet with a big grain of salt, a lot of misinformation out there.
I went thru my unions apprenticeship. I was non-union first. The apprenticeship is not as bad as you think it is. I learned some interesting things there. They might credit you some hours for working non-union, they did for me. Just something to look into. Good luck!
How long is apprenticeship? What is the pay rate difference? How many on D list are not working? Does an App. got out more often?
66 or 542 ?
i served a four year apprenticeship. wouldn't trade that experience for the world. learned about the jobs, not just the equipment.
I was thinking about doing the apprenticeship here in Mo, local 513. I may still do it in the future. Its a great program and the school is only 40 mins. away from me, I might just go ahead and put in an application so at least I'm on the waiting list. I don't know how it is in PA but you can't beat the pay here from what I've heard.
local 66. The apprenciteship requires 5 weaks a year be spent in pittsburg, three spread out during the working season and a 2 week shot during the winter. As an apprentice it will take a min. of two years to get to the "b" list, 2 there, then "a" list, for a total of 4. If I go in on the "d" list, I can test on three pieces, and buy by book after I get 11 days work. Then its setting on the "b" list for 1 year instead of two. Payday wise, apprentices are at a reduced rate, unless they are on pipeline work, then its full scale to the new guy.... or so I've been told. Supposedly the pipeliners from 66 are really good at what they do, and get to travel / stay busy alot due to their familiarity with slopes... And yes, I'm in contac with another union operator who is helping me thru it.
Im with qball .. Wouldnt trade it.. especially now after 16yr's service ,my pension .. Naw man wouldnt trade it for anything else ..Its wild what my projections are ..
Union. Hello. I am over 50, so no union for me. But, if I could do it all over again I would have gone union. The sheer crap that goes on in the companies in Texas is unbelievable. In Texas the push is for Mexican operators, undocumented workers, for a lower price. So much so that the legit workers have a hard time. Union is no promise but at least it is a start, better than nothing.
Union Go Union !
I'm outta 66, the way I broke in was I knew the hall was M/T, went to monroeville(now RIDC park on rt 28) got on the outta work list got called out next day, went to work, went on D list, worked 16 months straight, then did the upgrade, w2ent on the B list, 2 yrs. there(your requestable, big advantage) then the A list. Ask your buddy if he has a copy of the Training News? Lots of good classes for 66 members. Just spent a week down there for sucker hoe(vaculift) also got my pipeline operator qualification certification,D.O.T. required to work on the line. Went back yesterday and forklift cert.(power plant outages good money) PM me with any questions you may have, do my best to help ya out.:drinkup Bob aka ZZ
What district of 66 is that up there? I'm in Dist. 2 rite now.Have worked outta Dist. 1 also. Live in Mercer Co.:drinkup Bob aka ZZ
if your district is anything like mine (5) then your best bet is get to know someone that has a union company and tell them you are buying in and they can get you out and working for them. they say you cant be requested off the d list but i see it all the time over here.... its all in who you know ... atleast thats my experience .... i did get in through the apprenticeship on the first try which is rare the certs you get while at school are good
I'm district 4, Potter co. Some are saying that the pipeliners are going to be hollering for more help come June... time will tell. The rumor mill has Haliburton buying over 500 new Cat d-6's. 53, I'll find out new week sometime if I have an in that way, Pretty good chance that I can get my 11 days in that way. So once your in, you can go down to the training site and get trained on whatever right? See I learned to operate from observing other operators and getting a 15 minute lesson here and there and by teachign myself, so its possible that I don't know it all yet... so maybe the apprenticeship isn't all bad.
Some of them are non union, 3 that I've heard of.:drinkup Bob aka ZZ
Rumors do not pay the bills!!!! :drinkup Bob aka ZZ
Never understood that union thing in NA. What's the diff between union and non union? Over here (the Netherlands Europe) you can be a member of a union (not mandatory) but they only help you on issues with your boss and maybe some other things that I don't know of because I'm not a member. The unions over there get you jobs or? And if you're union you don't have boss but you get hired in or so? Does that system of unions apply for Canada as well?
I'm not Union but I think the Union generally provides better pay/benefits and treatment for the worker as well as finding work for it's members. For example, When I lived in metro Atlanta a non-union motor grader operator I knew made $14.50 an hour. Now as far as I know the motor grader operator is kind of the top man when it comes to a grading crew. Here in metro St. Louis a Union operator makes around $28.00 p/hr plus benefits. at the journeyman rate. Thats to operate anything from a skid steer to a motor grader. Also the cost of living here is just as much if not lower then metro Atlanta. So which would you rather work for?
Further clarification includes that most public works contracts are union contractor associated, meaning that its manditory the contract is bid on by contractors who use ONLY union labor/operators. Mack above has pointed out a typical north/south contrast, southern wages for operators is extremely low compared to northern wages, I doubt his wage shift has much at all to do with union issues but more to geographical location and local policy regarding prevailing wages. South has very little control over prevailing wage which is already lower then relative costs of living, whereas the northern prevailing wage scales match living stanards in a far more accurate manner. Unions are good for some, not so good for others, its funny in the Netherlands that membership isn't manditory, thats very interesting. In plenty of areas of America you MUST hold union membership to operate heavy equipment or you will be removed.
There is no such restriction in the UK either.
Just wanted to point out some misconceptions about union construction work! It would be illegal in the United States for any goverment agency to stipulate a contractor must be union to bid on thier job. Prevailing wage is sometimes a union wage but only when the greatest percentage of work is done by contractors signed with a union. In the south, union contractors do not have the greatest percentage of work so prevailing wages in the south are lower. The southern states are all right-to-work states which means a worker does not have to belong to the union if the employer has a contract with a union. Most northern and western states are considered closed shop states and to be employed with a company that has a signed union agreement means you must join the union or you will be removed from the job site. A project labor agreement signed with a goverment agency results in any company bidding on the job and if wining the bid will hire from a union out-of-work list after their own employees join the union for that project only. This helps to prevent a company from the south that pays lower wages going into a area with higher wages and undermining companies within that area with cheaper wages. These laws have been on the books since the early 1900's.I hope that clears up the differences between prevailing wages, project labor agreements, union and nonunion requirements on construction jobs. I an employed by the Operating Engineers in the Construction Training department!
Few examples of how it does and does not work. In Fairport, NY. Theres an outfit called Villager Contruction. They are involved in multiple phases of site development, paving, sewer/watermain, milling. It is easy to walk into Villagers office and apply for a Job, if qualified and they need your skills they will hire you as a prevailing wage employee. Alot of the contracts they are on are city/county/federal. NO mention of union or association is required. Go 90 miles west into Buffalo, NY. All the contractors running the exact same operations will NOT talk to you unless you are an operating engineer. Villager spend quite a bit of time working in Buffalo as well and NONE of their operators are operating engineers nor have they ever been required too make such concessions to hold the jobs they have. Villager also have an extensive asphalt milling operation in the south eastern states, the pay their operators gets pales anything paid by southern outfits. Right now in Georgia, Villager have 5 milling machines on I-95. Union membership is manditory in the NYC Boroughs, an operating engineer visits job sites to ensure the operators have a book and leave once they have satisfied this requirement, if the outcome is that an operator does not have a book, they will not be back the next day. On long island the local out there is not as pushy, they will simply attempt to recruit the operator to sign with them. I'm quite sure this is the case in many areas of America and wonder the legality of it in many cases. While down south its horrible to see an operator making petty wages to do the exact same job some one else is making $30 an hour on, it exists in FULL effect and isn't about to change. As for whats legal and what isn't legal, the dollar seems to control legal issues here. The Government has very little control and they don't care too unless it directly benefits them. Good and bad everywhere.
Reply to Milling Drum, Would have to see NYC boroughs written regulation requireing a equipment operator to be a member of the operating engineers. I believe you may be confusing wording "operating engineer" to that of licensing requirment. A subcontractor subing from a union signed contractor's would require union operators due to contract subletting language. If its illegal, in AMERICA it can be proven in a court of law, just ask a labor attorney! Too many unproven charges too often for too long!!!
Operating Engineer terminology varys from area to area. Some areas it means exactly as you have it, other areas it means; go to the hall and sign up or get lost. Requirements in Buffalo, NY and NYC are almost exactly the same. Whats REALLY funny about that is BOTH locals have recently had serious shake ups, meaning the management are in jail for the practices of forcing contractors to use union members and other not so savory practices. The international Brotherhood is in charge in Buffalo right now, not sure about NYC but they will not see anyone walking in, you must have an appointment. The lobby there resembles a prison. Much as I'd love to respect the term's "courts" and "laws", Its impossible to believe that system helps the common worker when disadvantaged, a person would die of starvation awaiting action or be forced into some form of government assistance. Neither works, its necessary to look elsewhere and just keep going. Thankfully the unions do ensure some form of decent prevailing wages in the northern regions.
Milling Drum, I see only accusations without any facts. Licensing equipment operators exist in other parts of the country besides New York City. Prevaling wages laws exist in every state in the US!. When human beings break the law in the US whether they be a minister, goverment employee, company CEO, newspaper reporter, union member, solder, or everyday Joe, they are punished!! Ask a 40 year member of the IUOE if the industry has been good to them!! Many wunna-be operators who don't get accepted into the industry can't eccept it because you must be "Simply The Best" to get the highest wages!!
It's all good. I make an extremely good "prevailing wage" running milling machines during the summer months and the union no longer can shut me out due to the fact I am mobile, which they aren't. Locals vary on a number of requirements. Many union halls I have been to easily accept asphalt mill operators because they are hard to find, when they realize I am from out of town it makes things a little more difficult but they know the value of having one availble and will make amends if I am willing to make amends. Old news. Using the state of New York does not mean all the info is confined to New York. I mentioned upper New York State which is 9 hours from NYC west. It is also a fact many areas of the Midwest, New England, and so on practice collective bargining agreements with associated contractors bidding on public contracts. I never mentioned a disagreement concerning prevailing wage or tried to maintain it doesn't exist. I know PLENTY of retired operating engineers, some say great things about the union, others don't. Higher wages in the south do NOT mean the best at all because it does not exist down there. In legal terms, we had nothing to do with the discussion of punishments until YOU mentioned it, it had to do with the right of the government to specify union labor, I did not disagree with you. America has more prisons than any other country in the world. Justice isn't debatable with that being a fact. Best I get out of this topic before the mods shut it down for us. They aren't fond of disagreements concerning this subject here because they wind up as arguements and I have no intention of that.
One of the main reasons that I'd like to get into the union is because workers have rights. For instance, an excavation and construction company that does business in the South eastern part of Pa did the following.... When the housing markets came to a halt, so did the developing of housing developments. This made for alot of extra manpower and machines and nothing for them to do. So the company managment did the following, laid off 1/3 of its employees, fired another 1/3, and told the remaining 1/3 that pay was cut by 10% or you can join the other 2/3's. How do you like them apples??
uhhh.....stumpjumper???? Have you by any chance watched any news programs over the past year??? Or read a newspaper???
Their are two IUOE branches Dirt and Power Plant and Boiler operators and in some areas you must be licensed by the city or state to be a Operating Engineer to operate any heated pressure vessel over 15 PSI and any power producing unit
So I sent my application in this morning... we will see I guess. Here are my thoughts, because I've been mainly self taught in operating equipment, a little formal training can't hurt. Maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, or I skipped a step somewhere. Anyway I have G.I. Bill money to cover apprenticeship cost, and I haven't found any other good use for them. I'm suposed to get a letter sometime next monthe letting me know when my test day is.... Yes, I know thats its happening everywhere steve, but the fact of the matter is, nobody took 10% off my bills. And besides, it isn't right to do that to your employees.
The protections of union shops are a great thing. Without protection some companies really enjoy getting over on stiffing employees. Other concerns that exist is the lack of union involvement in area which are dominated by union rules. An operator running heavy equipment which is covered under guidelines specified by the local union is NOT helped in any way by the union, not even to the point of prevailing wage. The Government had intiatially promised to fix this but of course it never happened and the unions really could care less unless it benefits them directly. This needs to be changed.
Well I have been in a similar situation. It's really simple and it has nothing to do with unethical treatment of employees by employers, here's how it goes: Company's main bread and butter is moving dirt and putting in subdivisions Subdivision work doesn't slow down, it SLAMS TO A STOP overnight, with banks withholding loan funding and putting some contractors in a serious cash pinch Company adjusts as best as possible, quickly to expand on more commercial work and small demo jobs (whatever comes along) Commercial work is the next domino to fall in the worst economic event since the Great Depression Company sheds as much iron and overhead as possible but keeps all employees on board, trying to compete against other companies that are bidding jobs for the cost of materials When there is no work coming through the front door for a while, means no work for employees and no money on Friday for a paycheck. It's really very simple and has affected thousands of contractors in this Great Recession that has officially lasted for 2.5 years now, in actuality the recession has been going on for more than 3 years. No work = no income = no paychecks
Even the tech jobs are going that way, I have 18 yrs. exp. non-union, and our pay is going backwards due to the flood of undocumented workers. Most companies in Texas are so anti-union you can get fired for even discussing it.
well, on tuesday I spent 6hrs. taking the apprentice operators test... Waiting to see what happens.
With or without them you will have a job this season. Good luck all the same.
Got a letter in the mail yesterday... I have an interview! I can't wait...
Thats excellent!!! Congrats!
thanks milling drum, I know it doesn't mean that I'm in, but it is a giant step foreward. I'll tell you all more after the 18th...
well, i had a 40 minute interview and a drug test and they told me that I would know if I was in the second week of April... so more waiting. The interview went very well, but I have to wait...
This is where it gets interesting. Lets see how long they have you sitting. Of course its still not warm yet and the the list of people still sitting is very long but, lets just see.... Please let us know how they use you this season.
I took it like he doesn't even know if he's in yet. Why can't you just wish him good luck?
My absolute best wishes to you my friend, I hope you get accepted. I am union and it is much better on this side of the fence for many reasons and the main one being the representation. No disrespect for the non union guys, they have there place and if they are content I wish them well also. My opinion is we all break our asses out there every day so why divide ourselves any further, we all have to feed our families so lets be as personal as possible.its tough to make a living out there as it is, so why make more difficult as it is .:usa
Thanks for all the encouragement, And I will let you all know when I know. All I know is that it has been a long process to get to where I'm at so far...
Going IUOE... which way How would you describe a good union operator? I've work both side's of the dirt pile. When one told me he didn't have to work hard,because he was a union operator I just laughed. STUMP KNOCKER
Hey man.....Good luck as it comes. My position is if your qualified, passed all the tests and they like you....why isn't it a cinch? They have no reason to turn anyone away thats qualifed and make it past all the requirements.
they base how many people they accept from the different areas on how much work is slated for that specific area... ie .. lots of guys from the city and a couple from the boonys..... good luck stump!
well guys... no apprenticeship for me this year... now I try to get on with some contractors that I know and get in the door that way...
Don't give up Stumpjumper it took me a long time to get in the union. Believe me once you get in it is worth it.
I don't know about that. I got in the union 3 years ago and just about can't stand it. Our dues go to pay for the BA trucks and salories and you never see them on a job,evenwith work almost at a hault, unless someone complanes. The BAs here just got brand new trucks and all you hear at the meetings is how broke the union is. Around here the non union guys are busy and the union guys are sitting on the couch.
Then go non-union if it works better for you.
I am not trying to **** anyone off but that is my thoughts. And I probally will after my 5 years so I don't have to pay for the schooling.
So...even after a test, interview, and the waiting, nothing happens for the applicant. Much as he tried, He will get IN using alternative methods and/or ignoring the local union. Question: How much loyalty should he have to the union if he winds up on a union pay scale with a contractor that did NOT use the hall?
Hey rammer, if you don't want the opportunity there are 500 people who do want to learn the trade. Stumpjumper, sorry things didn't work out for you. Best of luck with whatever you do.
What are you saying milling drum? Just because they locked the front door doesn't mean you shouldn't check the back?
My big gripe is the whole legitimacy aspect of doing things the RIGHT way....Sometimes it fails... Trust me I enjoy the things unions bring but I don't care a **** about their paperwork/tests/books or the whole "membership" ideology for ME! For somebody else...great, if it fits you.
Right on Stumpjumper, keep trying man, I didn't think at the age of 34 I'd have a prayer of getting a card, but doing the right thing can have its rewards. Talk to a BA about those things. Perseverance and your Navy background, you may want to try Helmets to Hardhats, if you havent already. Don't give up though.
It's a damn joke around here (in Buffalo) ointhead, I don't want to get into the IUOE to make boat loads of money, I want in because I have been wanting to operate equipment since I was a youngster. It has been my dream to do so, and not one company around here will hire anyone without 3-5 years of experience running equipment, and as milling drum said, majority of the jobs around here are OE's. I recently tried to apply to the local and now you must have either your Class A or B to even apply. :beatsme
I know of number of asphalt milling contractors right now that would love to hire me but can't because the number of people on the out of work list. So the union is winning in some ways and not in others.
Well the union is only as good as your local, I was a member of IUOE 77 for three years, my family was union and after getting out of the military the boom was on in the D.C. area and they were begging for bodies. They were not taking just anyone and the master mechanic tested you out and after three weeks of jump hoops and the stories about pay and benefits I was in, heavy highway and was cleared on 7 different machines with prevailing scale wages. After three years I learned many things, best one was that the hall was looking out for the BA's and if anyone with less than 30 years with a card said anything it was ignored. Good luck if you want to be union, some places have good halls from what I hear but 77 is not one of them.
I've been Union for many years now, It's been the difference between working 60 hour weeks, barley making ends meet, and a comfortable living. I agree that it can be who you know more then following the rules. When I asked who was supposed to pay my bills while I went thru the apprentice program and wait a couple years to get called up they just shrugged :beatsme This is how I heard it was done- Have someone at union co. that you know. Get on the D list. Put a fictional machine on your experience list. The union co. calls the hall and orders an operator for that fictional machine. The hall looks thru the out of work list, and finds the first person qualified on that machine- YOU! I'm not sure if the union office girls are complicit in this or not, it's just what I heard....
middle of the road on unions..but if the employer is out of work...How do you expect them to pay wages?
I didn't become a union operator till I was 36, Not that I didn't want in but wasn't really an option earlier. I would do it again if I had to for sure. I wish I had more time in the union than I have. I've been in for 21 years now. 58 years old. I was always running a motor grader and I kind of just walked in the door. Knew some people that knew I could do the job. I would tend to think like lots of others here. An apprenticeship would no doubt help you. You will alway make mistakes learning and you will always learn no matter how old you are but I would think if you were an apprentice you would be forgiven a little more easily. Quote me if I'm wrong.. Hopefully the work for operators really gets going soon. Good luck on your decision. IUOE #101
Well, to update everyone, I didn't go union. Instead I went self employed. Started out with an old trackloader that I'd had, added a mini hoe, then a dumptruck, dozer, and a tree biz, and things are working well so far... Third year now self employed and every month is better than the last...
Well i didn't realize that this thread was as old as it was until I already posted it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting your own business. It's tough cause you always got to spend money when you are starting but it gets better with time. Sounds like you are finding that out. Best of luck to you!