Anyone see the annoucement by CNH ? Looks like Fiat is once again fleeing the North American market. It really stinks for all the folks that purchased (and still have) NH equipment over the last 12 years. Although, I gotta say that once Fiat bought Case this writting was on the wall.
what do you mean?
Is it because of the tier4 emission requirements?
The fact that the NH brand will no longer be promoting and selling anything much bigger than a backhoe loader in North America. New Holland Construction says it will refocus on the compact product lines for the landscaping, utility, residential construction and agriculture industries, among others in North America. As a result, starting in 2012, New Holland Construction will begin withdrawing from the North American market its crawler dozers, motor graders, 80-plus horsepower wheel loaders, 6-plus ton excavators and telescopic handlers. New Holland Construction will continue to offer compact products and associated attachments, including the skid-steer loaders, compact track loaders, tractor loaders, loader backhoes, compact wheel loaders and compact excavators. This announcement only concerns the North American market, as New Holland Construction will continue to sell the heavy equipment product lines in all other world markets. “New Holland Construction’s heritage in North America is a great source of pride and we are pleased with the success of our compact line. We are committed to providing our New Holland Construction customers with the superior equipment performance they expect,” said Jim Hasler, vice president of CNH Construction, North America. I doubt it has anything to do with Tier 4. I'm betting that CNH (which is run mostly by old Case management) is tired of the NH and Case brands diluting each other in product lines in which both have low single digit market share. Pretty much all of the products mentioned sans the telehandlers are the exact same product that Case is selling simply painted a different color. This is purely speculation on my part, but I think that they get enough volume out of the smaller equipment line (backhoes, skid steers, mini ex's) that they can justify continuing to produce identical machines painted different colors. Again...just my opinion as a humble observer. At the end of the day, like I said, it stinks for those folks that bought into the brand of NH when they bought the larger NH machines. If people still have those tractors they will suffer the same fate as the people that had Fiat Allis machines. They won't be worth anything and eventually the NH dealers won't be able to supply parts any longer...leaving the customers stranded. Its this mentality that keeps the Italians (Fiat) from really being able to gain significant market share in North America. Every two years they have to come out with a "new" five year plan all in the name of short term gains. They always seem to loose sight of the long term strategies and after several years of doing trying to keep changing it up simply to meet short term goals they flop...just like Fiat Allis...just like New Holland Construction and I predict within 10 years Kobelco in North America will suffer the same fate.
New Holland started down sizing its NA offerings back in 2005. The first products to be chopped were large wheel loaders the 270 and 190 IIRC. Next was the DC180 and DC150 dozer. I was employed by a NH dealer at the time and we received a letter explaining how they intended to refocus the product line to small contractor size equipment. The bigger iron was being given to the Case line and many NH/Case products would in the future be built on a common platform. That ment at some point both skid steers and backhoe loaders would be the same machine except for paint and decals.
Although this is a dissapointing decision for New Holland dealers and customers that have purchased New Holland construction equipment, it will not affect the value of the New Holland construction equipment or the ability to have it serviced or repaired. The wheel loaders and dozers that are being removed are the same as the Case wheel loaders and dozers and the excavators are the same as the Kobelco excavators so parts and service will continue to be available and if your local New Holland dealer is anything like mine than you will continue to be very well looked after. After "farm_boy" started this post and seems to be quite negative towards anything to do with the CNH brand I would like to point out that this decision by Fiat or CNH is nothing different than what any other company does. Lets look at the always so grand John Deere: 1. They built a large square baler which never worked and they could never get it to work so they pulled the plug and left their customers with nothing. If you want to talk about a piece of equipment that is worth next to nothing now, look at the value of a used John Deere big square baler now. Oh but now they are going back into the large square baler market by buying a big square baler from Kuhn, always designing and building the best equipment themsleves. 2. They bought telehandlers from Manitou for a couple years and painted them John Deere and than pulled the plug on them, effectively leaving their customers stranded. But I suppose they can still get parts and service from a Manitou dealer right? Agco Agco recently decided to pull the Agco Allis orange brand of tractors from its product line and keep only the Massey Ferguson and Challenger lines, but they are all the same so a Agco Allis orange customer will have no problem continuing to get parts and service from their local Massey Ferguson or Challenger dealer. Caterpillar Excavators If I am not mistaken, a large majority of Caterpillar excavators are actually built by Mitsubishi but nobody has a problem buying Caterpillar excavators. John Deere Excavators If I am not mistaken, a large majority of John Deere excavators are actually built by Hitachi but nobody has a problem buying John Deere excavators. I for one would not shy away at all from buying a New Holland wheel loader, dozer, excavator or any other New Holland product for that matter as they continue to run beside any other companies product, if not better, and usually have a better initial price and subsequent resale value.
Not many people will miss New Holland products, myself among them.
"surfer-joe Not many people will miss New Holland products, myself among them." Just another customer that can't admit that New Holland products are just as good if not better than the rest out there.
Nothing wrong with NH equipment in general but they lack in the areas of parts availability and service support. I'm not talking about a small dealer network I mean lack of support from CNH. Being employed by one of the largest NH construction dealers in NA who was also one of NAs largest Case dealers in another state there is a marked difference in support offered by both brands and they dont seem to talk across the room. There ARE differences between a NH dozer and its Case brother...... or were. Steering controls and cab interior come to mind. Same held true for wheel loaders and rebadged Kobelcos. Service support for large NH machines is going the way of Fiat Allis service support. Have you tried to buy many parts for the Fiat Allis built machines? NLA and backordered are the norm otherwise take a wheel barrow load of money with you. Same will happen to NH in a few years.
The differences between the Case and New Holland wheel loaders is extremely minimal. The only reason NH may be lacking in parts availability and service support is because the company has to many Case people and they will screw the company up just like they did before Fiat (NH) bought them. They (Case) were broke when Fiat (NH) bought them and they should have let them not purchased them, but somebody else would have. I have never ever had an issue with parts availabilty from New Holland and can't believe anybody would look after me better then my local New Holland dealer, they are amazing. Find it hard to believe when somebody makes the statement that they are lacking in the area of parts availability compared to Case when they are the same company and the same parts nowadays. The parts availability from New Holland will continue to be very good and has nothing to do with Fiat Allis. Try getting parts for some of the older John Deere and Caterpillar units and talk about get your cheque book out.
You really need to spend some time working for a NH construction dealer. Only then will you realize that while NH and Case are both owned by CNH NH is the b*****d red headed stepchild left to it own. I fought this battle to keep dozers, graders, loaders and excavators repaired for 10 years often times robbing needed parts from new inventory when backordered. I never said Fait Allis had anything to do with NH parts availibilty. What I said was CNH will stop supporting NH machines down the road much like they have the Fiat Allis units.
I will agree with you that NH is the b*****d stepchild left on its own and that will probably mean more trouble for NH down the road. I also understand that Case is probably a more recognizable name in the construction industry and that probably had something to do with Fiat's decision. But that doesn't mean that a NH dealer may have been a better dealer or doing a better job. CNH may stop supporting the NH products down the road by not having parts availability any more but wouldn't the parts be available through a Case or Kobelco dealer and wouldn't a Case or Kobelco dealer gladly pickup the parts and service business as well as the possible sales business by taking the NH product on trade. A lot of people always look at something as a "glass half empty" in the sense that I won't be able to get parts and service any more and my machine isn't worth anything any more. But on the positive "glass half full" side there will still be parts and service available and if the equipment values drop off slightly (which they won't), than there will be some decent buys for people that want good equipment. By the way, I have pretty good knowledge of a New Holland construction dealership as well as a New Holland agricultural dealership.
Over the course of a couple of years in Bakersfield, we tried NH backhoes and excavators. We actually bought a used backhoe from Texaco, but no one liked it, or the rental machines we used. Backhoes were low on power and operated like a bull in a china shop. The excavators were also low powered, and service and parts were virtually extinct. The backhoe we purchased was a real steal my boss thought, until it turned into a yard puppy only. Shortly after I retired on disability, it was sold at a Richie auction in Riverside. We tried a couple of Terex backhoes around that time too. Same result.
"surfer-joe Over the course of a couple of years in Bakersfield, we tried NH backhoes and excavators. We actually bought a used backhoe from Texaco, but no one liked it, or the rental machines we used. Backhoes were low on power and operated like a bull in a china shop. The excavators were also low powered, and service and parts were virtually extinct. The backhoe we purchased was a real steal my boss thought, until it turned into a yard puppy only. Shortly after I retired on disability, it was sold at a Richie auction in Riverside. We tried a couple of Terex backhoes around that time too. Same result." So what brand of backhoes and excavators did you use that were better than New Holland?
Caterpillar 416's and later on 420's. Some Deere 310's. Early on, we had a few well worn out Case 580's. The Cats were preferred all around. The Deere's held up well. Of course, NH and Cat use the same rear axle assembly in the 416's and 420's. We had a lot of brake trouble until we learned to use a better brake material and to change the housing oil every 250 hours. I purchased some brake and planetary parts from NH, only because they were about 30% cheaper than Cat for the same item. As for excavators, we bought used Cat 320's from Quinn. These were mostly lease returns or program rentals. No other dealer in Bakersfield could top Quinn's service or parts department. One of the single best reasons Cat is so prevalent in the market.
No doubt that various manufacturer’s start and end product lines all the time for lots of reasons, but most of the time never such a broad stroke of so many models across various product lines. I respectfully disagree with you that this doesn’t negatively affect resale value. It doesn't matter if its green, red, blue or yellow...once a factory stops making iron its value on the market place goes down. There are exceptions when the product that was dropped is soooo good that demand remains in the used market AND there continues to be support for it from both the dealer and manufacturer level. As far as still getting parts through NH dealers, good luck after a couple of years when the NH dealers will no longer be able to perform warranty or provide technical support of these tractors. You say that NH machines are the same as Case and Kobelco...well that is true for the recent machines. What about the EC160 through EC600 series of excavators that were built in the O&K factory in Berlin? What about the DC70, DC80 and DC100 dozers that were built by Macmotor in Italy? What about the LW110 through LW270 wheel loaders that were built in Lecce Italy in the Fiat-Hitachi factory? What about the LM840, LM850 and LM860 telehandlers that were built by Manitou? What about the EC15 - EC45 mini excavators that were built by Schaeff? Case never had any of these products and I bet it will become really hard for those customers to find service, let alone parts. Lastly, by in large if you have a substantially lower initial purchase price than the rest of the competition you will never have a higher resale value. If you start low you’re going to end up low. As far as the equipment, I think pretty much all of the Case, New Holland, Komatsu, Cat, Deere, Bobcat, Doosan, Volvo etc etc make pretty decent iron. At the end of the day it comes down to who is going to support it the best. There is a reason that Cat, Deere, Volvo and Komatsu are the 4 strongest players in North America and it isn’t a coincidence that these four manufacturers have the four strongest dealer networks in North America. When you have a company like Fiat that is in and out of a market as big as North America it simply can’t find independent business people willing to invest tens of millions of dollars on a shaky bet that every ten years they pull the rug out from underneath them. They are two for two now with Fiat-Allis and New Holland Construction. CNH will never have a decent dealer network because of this fundamental issue. Therefore they (New Holland AND Case) will never have decent market share in large iron and subsequently will never have decent resale value.
"You are very mistaken. The early ones were a joint venture with Mitsi, some still have Mitsubishi engines though most of these are being phased out, but the (larger) machines are now built in Cat's own factories in Belgium, Japan, China and North America. It's only a few mini and midi-excavators that are Mitsubishi." So basically Cat doesn't build all of their own excavators and has an alliance with another company (Mitsubishi) just like most other companies do.
"Caterpillar 416's and later on 420's. Some Deere 310's. Early on, we had a few well worn out Case 580's. The Cats were preferred all around. The Deere's held up well. Of course, NH and Cat use the same rear axle assembly in the 416's and 420's. We had a lot of brake trouble until we learned to use a better brake material and to change the housing oil every 250 hours. I purchased some brake and planetary parts from NH, only because they were about 30% cheaper than Cat for the same item. As for excavators, we bought used Cat 320's from Quinn. These were mostly lease returns or program rentals. No other dealer in Bakersfield could top Quinn's service or parts department. One of the single best reasons Cat is so prevalent in the market." I knew you were going to say Cat or Deere, they are always the supposive best but in truth don't perform any better than the rest. I've driven Cat backhoes before and they are actually dogs. Will put a New Holland up against a Cat or annything else any day. Oh and by the way, that same rear axle that was used in both the New Holland's and the Cats was a New Holland rear axle. Caterpillar bought the rear axle from New Holland for quite a few years and it was a great rear axle. Just another proof that the big boys aren't any better than the rest.
"Lastly, by in large if you have a substantially lower initial purchase price than the rest of the competition you will never have a higher resale value. If you start low you’re going to end up low. As far as the equipment, I think pretty much all of the Case, New Holland, Komatsu, Cat, Deere, Bobcat, Doosan, Volvo etc etc make pretty decent iron. At the end of the day it comes down to who is going to support it the best. There is a reason that Cat, Deere, Volvo and Komatsu are the 4 strongest players in North America and it isn’t a coincidence that these four manufacturers have the four strongest dealer networks in North America. When you have a company like Fiat that is in and out of a market as big as North America it simply can’t find independent business people willing to invest tens of millions of dollars on a shaky bet that every ten years they pull the rug out from underneath them. They are two for two now with Fiat-Allis and New Holland Construction. CNH will never have a decent dealer network because of this fundamental issue. Therefore they (New Holland AND Case) will never have decent market share in large iron and subsequently will never have decent resale value." I always laugh out loud when I hear the Cat and Deere guys say they have a better resale value. I went to math class and it is so obvious it isn't funny that they actually have a worse resale value. Question: If you buy a new Cat or Deere backhoe for $100,000.00 and a new New Holland backhoe for $90,000.00 and after 2 years they are both traded in with 1500 hours and the Cat/Deere guy gets $90,000.00 and the New Holland guy gets $81,000.00 on trade which is the better resale value? Answer: They are both the same as they are 10% less than the original purchase price and actually the New Holland is a better resale value because you would have paid less interest on a lower initial purchase price. I can't wait to hear the replies back to this as you Cat and Deere guys will have some dumb answer just like believing you have a better resale value. The ultimate truth is that the only thing that matters is what you pay difference when trading and I'll guarantee that everybody pays about the same differnence no matter which brand you buy. Unless you buy John Deere or Cat and then you always pay more for machines that don't do anything more.
Bit different to saying MOST Cat excavators are manfactured by Mitsubishi, which you said earlier. I've read my reply to you, perhaps you should as well, then you'll see I didn't say what you seem to think I said. The excavators built at the plants at Gosselies (Cat's biggest outside the USA), China (may end up the biggest in the world) and Akashi (Japan) as well as American product owe very little to Mitsubishi. When Cat was deeper in bed with Mitsubishi it was a full joint venture rather than a badging exercise. Only the first Cat machines were badged Mitsubishi.
I believe you are mistaken. ALL of the Deere excavators are from the Deere-Hitachi JV. In fact the 120 - 350 orange and yellow machines go down the same line in Kernersville NC at the Deere-Hitachi plant. Only the three largest machines and the minis are a paint and decal job. The Deere machines in NC have Deere engines along with specific programming and cooling packages too. Furthermore Deere also carries the sales and marketing responsibility for Hitachi in North America.
I'm not hard line for any company and have even considered New Holland equipment because it sells cheap at auction. For example an 04 or 05 lw170 loader will bring at least 20k less than a comparable Deere 644. Its the crawlers that take the biggest beating at auctions. Often bringing as little as half of their main competition (Cat Deere Komatsu). I know enough to know that a NH DC95 didn't sell for 25k less new than an exact same setup in a 650 Deere. As far as machines doing more than other makes. I've run a 650 Deere and a DC96 NH and the Deere is worth at least double of the NH. The DC95 is one of the most barbaric modern crawlers I've ever seen. The technology in that machine Cat, Deere, and Komatsu had 20 years ago
You can rest assured that if fiat is associated with it, it is a piece of junk. I'd rather have the korean made stuff than a fiat. I'm wish they would have left the case backhoes alone.