I see a trend of small equipment dealers being bought out by huge equipment dealers (ie: 4 store Deere dealer being bought by a 20 store Deere dealer). Is this a good thing or a bad thing? What do you think guys?
Same happened here a few years ago.....The Texas dealer for Deere (HUGE and many stores) bought out the East Oklahoma dealer (3 stores). They immediately got rid of 80% of the sales staff, some had been there for over 20 years. They changed the way the parts and service department previously operated to THEIR way. It has sucked for the customer ever since. Most everyone here with Deere equipment refuses to use them unless its an absolute necessity. The service department is the biggest joke in the state. Seems they only cater to the governments and really big companies with mostly Deere equipment. If your a smaller operation, your F^&%$#D. I got a call yesterday on a 750J with engine trouble. The first thing he said was "Don't tell me to take it to Deere."
I don't think its necessarily a new phenomenon, and I don't think its a good thing either. Its kind of like trucking. If you own 4 trucks, you just as well have 14, and then its just as much work to have 40, and then you have 400. The giant dealer company is already set up, the bankers are more willing to loan the $ to buy another dealership to someone that already own's several, as to someone who doesn't own any. The original owners of a dealership are usually in the second or third generation of ownership and the family group eventually just wants the $, so they sell out to the big boys who can borrow the $. Unfortunately, the salesmen and managers just want their numbers to look good to "corporate", so they aren't really looking to help the customer out, they're trying to climb the ladder. The employee's really don't care too much either- they are there for the check- some big corps treat everyone like just a number, so they stick it to them back. Now that's not true of all big dealers or employee's, but its more often true than not. I like doing business with people, I like having a few different parts guys that I know, I like having a mechanic that I know. I could care less what company he works for, I care if he's someone I trust to do things right. I don't care if I'm now "tied into our network of 42 regional dealerships". I want the right part at the right price, and to talk to "joe" who I always deal with in service.
Just happened out here w/ CAT . Patten was bought by Altorfer Patten wasn't small either We didn't say things like we will order it from Cat we said we'll order from Patten now everybody says will order from Cat
One major company bought out all their dealers by Corporate. Now it is like beating your head against the wall whenever you call them for parts or anything. It is so awful it is like a big joke.
Elimination or reducememt of competition - is never a good thing!!!
The real issue is that the manufactures have put so many requirements on the dealers that a minimum gross income is required in order to survive. If your Cat dealership doesn't gross a billion a year, Mother Cat views you as marginally viable to them. The Deere people want a store every so many miles apart. If you have one covering half a state, they want you to put in four more or you had better be ready to sell the franchise before they pull it. Where this is heading is direct sales by the manufacturer over the internet. Order the machine, specify a delivery location and the factory will give you a delivery date. Something goes wrong with the machine and it will communicate that to a service center who will dispatch a wrench with parts to repair the machine. Dealer profit is minimized or eliminated. You pay for the machine like a lease or rental contract but the prices are going to be sooooo much higher. If you are small, well you are a risk financially anyway. Mother Cat or Deere isn't interested in risky debt. They want the market share that can pay their exorbitant rates. Us lessers will have to deal with the Koreans and the Chinese for iron.
I’m thinking that CAT and Deer up for the rude awakening, just like Detroit’s Big Three in early 2000s!
Like ***** Airgas. Joe H
Same thing in the trucking industry 20 years back. Ford got in bed w/ Freightliner then became Sterling. Navistar forcibly bought out dealerships. Paccar forged alliance w/ Cummins since Cat pulled out of heavy truck market. Freightliner was about all you could get a DD in anymore. Its ugly and headed our way. Mack is Volvo and vice versa. Now you can't say, I need price and availability when shopping parts, it's the same across the board. Only option is shop dealers out of your territory and pay exorbitant shipping fees . We can't win this game. It worked with the trucking industry, they're using the same model on heavy equipment .
Only problem I see, it won't happen. All the farmers banded together against Deere and nothing happened. No legislation, no antitrust laws violated, not even right to repair held up. They continue to say, our game, our rules. Farmers continue to buy green. No change.
As long as it will be easier to buy new and have warranty than it is to run older iron or second life iron from an owners standpoint it will not change That said the price point for new equipment may push that issue pretty soon I am personally building a mixed fleet of new iron and old iron that can be worked on for some of these reasons As far as dealers go it just matters the people in charge and the ones you deal with most managers are corporate players so they are accountants first and managers second they dont view a relationship with customers as something important What most dealers forget is when times are lean it's the small outfits that keep them in business not the big ones
The managers probably know that but they probably have a hard time explaining that to the higher financial guys during the fat times so they just have to shake their heads and do what the boss man says, just like the rest of us do.
I have seen this in my own business for years. I treat them all the same.
Used to be dozens of Deere or CNH dealers around here, now are down to I am thinking Four Realtime Ag/Eq dealers for Deere statewide, CNH keeps downsizing where dealers end up changing brands to stay open or just disappear. I am not liking it much.
Around here the case dealer has always ducked in my lifetime the cat dealer was awesome growing up but once the third generation turned it over to his college buddies it became the mantra is cat gives us the privilege to buy and run there iron Until about 5 years ago the deere dealer was not a place you wanted to do lots of business big corporate multi state dealer they changed managers and seem to be pretty fair but I truly believe the real reason I am doing business there is I have an awesome salesman and he doesnt allow things to become problems
Frame up rebuild will never be an option anymore. No one will finance it and the cost of parts and labor is more than the cost of new with little or no warranty. It only works when the factory people decide to slow production of new big machines.
I guess were lucky. Some of the companies around are going for rebuilds to get away from the newer machine problems and down time
I would like to see more go that way just to prove that we don't need this new garbage and emissions controls crippling our industry
You all know where that will lead, parts will stop being produced and end up with that Taiwan garbage that fails all to quickly or as assemble.
D I don't think that's what will stop the older machines... lobbyists lawyers attorneys politicians.
I'm already seeing some of this with small trucking outfits and farms that aren't afraid to buy a pre '99 truck with issues and rebuild an engine or other components to get a good truck that is exempt from a bunch of regulatory BS.
Cat has all but stated parts for Pre 2000 3406E/C- series engines in On Highway applications may become parts limited. Got that the other day when asked as to contact the people we bought the sensors for that machine I had been driving by the current mechanic. Mechanic identified one that had failed, had called Fabick and that number albeit a stock item when bought is now NLA CAT. Was referred to an aftermarket supplier and the mechanic was asking me if had ever dealt with their stuff, HHP out of MI. I have not has anyone here?
I have not, have you tried dealers outside your territory? Perhaps someone has NOS sitting on the shelf somewhere
That is where are currently headed. Fabick owes warranty so with some discussion was pushed to procure from elsewhere.
Some aftermarket is good stuff, others, junk. Some of it is OEM with numbers shaved off and boxed. Some are Chinese / Viet Names scrap.
If you know someone who is rebuilding and has been successful for less cost of operation overall the a new machine by doing it, I'd like to know them.
In the trucking game I guess you could contact anyone who tried to run the international maxxforce engines. Anyone running a n-14 or 3406 surely made more $ while those other rigs were setting in the shop. In my area a late 90's truck will bring twice what a 2008 model will, given comparable condition. Guys here that are buying new, are actually snatching up any new "glider" while they can still buy them, I guess the epa is going to crack down on that market. I don't know if you can call it rebuilding or not, but I still run 2 late 70's hydraulic cranes. I haven't actually rebuilt them, but I keep them maintained. Considering a new "40 ton" crane truck is over $3-400,000, and I can do the same work with a $40,000 old one, I guess I'll keep running them. They sure don't cost me as much when they aren't busy. The other 4 cranes I have are late 80's to mid 90's, a era of a lot less electrical controls. I actually spend less $ on my late 70's than I do on my 90's. Its still just picking stuff up and setting it back down. And actually the older they are, the better built (structurally) they are. The newer cranes typically have longer main booms in them, and will travel faster, but they actually aren't as smooth operating. I can run those older cranes for less than the interest on a new one. I know there's several guys on here running old lattice booms that the #'s would work out the same way.
Maintaining is the key to long life. I'm going to congratulate you on knowing how to play the game of machine life and profitability. The thing about a crane though is that it isn't consumed by running it. Dozers, wheel loaders, excavators and such also build stresses into the frames and attached components. You can make them run long hours but at some point they have to be torn down to the frame and put back together or just plain replaced. If you could make anything work in the rebuilding game it might be with trucks. Unfortunately they are subject to a lot more federal regulations which in time will kill their rebuild ability. Political climates cycle from red to blue and back again.
As I worked in a Nuke I saw the changes Early On as to what will come down the pike in public arena. Our cranes(installed) were originally set to 10 year inspection/load limit verification cycles, the NRC up scaled that to four years as a Safety Measure due to Fukushima damage control. Our brought in mobile cranes Had to be fully inspected prior to being brought in the fenced area and that inspection done on site, if any aspect or age consideration raised brow the machine was sent back, that due to a instance at Ark Nuke 1 where the Contractor machine failed, dropped the Main Generator Stator and housing killed a worker. What is going around is expanding as to machine inspections where the guys doing the inspections would not sign off as to implied age related metal fatigue on squirt boom machines and units less than 15 years old were discounted or just failed the expectation requirements. At over $100/hour will be hard pressed to build gliders or rebuild machines for less than cost of new. Local grade contractor has set themselves up on extended lease agreements where the risk falls back to the supplier and the liability of ownership reduces while the costs are simply passed to the customer. Nothing getting any cheaper these days.
Cat still does certified powertrain and full on rebuilds. The full on rebuilds get you everything brought back up to new spec plus any improvements and a new serial number. Mostly for the larger equipment, as far as I know Supposedly it’s about half the cost or so if a new machine
Head out Monday to do an " in frame " on a 1979 Kenworth W-900 . 290 big cam Cummins . Engine kit was pretty expensive . $ 1,200.00 Figure around $ 3,000.00 labor . Add in the barley soda & tater chip's round it off to an even $ 5000.00 LOL !
John Deere started a relife program as well. It is only available on the production class (large) machines. One of our stores is re-lifing a 650 size excavator right now. It's the first one our company is involved in. It will be interesting to see what the end cost ends up being. IMO I think the rebuild market is only going to increase.
Cat does not do a certified power train rebuilds. Dealers do rebuilds and if done to Cat specs Caterpillar with send paperwork saying it was a certified rebuild. In truth few if any dealers can afford to do one as the requirements are crazy and the cost is almost the same as a new one. The dealer then gets stuck carrying the warranty risks. The only people who will loan money on one in my experience is Cat Financial. Most dealers are doing in house power train rebuilds without the certification. The only place I've seen it work is on D10 and D11 dozers.
Sounds about like I said about the quarry equipment I dealt with at work. That stone has been sitting there for thousands if not millions of years and has changed very little in that time! I can see many improvements in the equipment used say from back in the 1950's such as better brakes. To some extent don't have a problem with trying to cut back on the pollution put out by the engines. It seems that we are getting to the point, if not already past it, that so called "improvements" are getting to be counter productive. When you start scrapping a machine that is ten years old it will need to be replaced. Ideally the scrapped machine would be "recycled" to be used as raw materials for the replacement machine, but how much of it really is? So now to build a new machine more mining will be needed to get the raw materials to make steel, iron and copper to build the replacement. Then the non-recycled parts of the old machine will be left to rot and pollute the ground somewhere else! This also does not take into account the hazards from the chemicals and such that are used to "clean" the exhausts of the newer engine and the extra fuel burned to burn off the crap filtered out of the exhausts. I also have to wonder about the production time lost due to the added complexity of the newest machines. One dirty connection or slight voltage spike from some guy tack welding something on the frame of a machine and the machine can be out of service for days while someone is tearing their hair out trying to find the problem. Add to this the mentality of many in management. That you should be able to fix any machine with a pair of pliers and a big hammer on one hand. Or the management types that think plugging in the computer will tell you in detail everything that is wrong and every last nut bolt wire and sensor that needs to be repaired or replaced.
As John mentioned about Cat, Volvo dealers along with Volvo financial were offering similar packages. Volvo was offering re-power programs , all-in or a la cart depending on customer's budgetary constraints. I would think that it only makes sense that Komatsù would offer as well. I know the local KMC dealer offers in house programs, don't know if KMC supports it. It makes sense though. The EPA imposes all these rules and regs with insane fines when all we really have to do is re-power. Easier said than done.
I dont think you could ever cost effectively re power small equipment such as backhoes with anything other than factory type power for that model even things like blades and 4 yard loaders wont pencil out witch is what the dealers and manufacturers want plus a repiwered machine with non factory power is not going to be supported by the dealer especially a multi regional dealer To repower small equipment you would have to have 5 or more of that same model to come close to it being worth it no mom and pop shop has that so rebuild repower is out of economic reach witch is what the dealers and manufacturers want because mom and pop outfits and small iron is what is the backbone of the equipment market so your forced into buying new for lack of economic options
Eventually you will see the insurance companies refuse to carry the pre emissions stuff. It's like the safety regulations. Around here, you can't bid government work unless you are certified under provincial regs. It started with federal work, now it's provincial as well. Plus without safety certification, your workers compensation rates become unaffordable, making even private work undoable. There used to be 5 different auto parts dealers here, now it's just Napa and Carquest. They claim more buying power leads to savings for the consumer, but what happens when the competition is all gone, and the law of supply and demand kicks in?
I guess that were coming to a crossroads soon were tech and labor are going to determine a lot and 20 years from now its entirely possible that the major players of manufacturers and dealerships may not even be in business anymore so without my crystal ball I couldn't tell you but obviously it's going to suck for options in the short term If supply and demand kick in that way someone will step in and open up shop it's always happened
Twenty five years from now it will be all robots.
Good God If I live another 25 years I will have to overhaul the 1979 Kenworth again for the third time . LOL ! All BS aside with technology advances over the years dealership support after the warrantee runs out don't mount up to a bowl of beans . All the aftermarket companies with ability to" tool up " and reproduce parts amazes me . Installed a water pump on the 1966 Chevy C-60 . Small block 350 engine , pump cost $ 18.00 . In frame engine kit for the 290 Cummins project $ 1,200.00 Who needs a dealer at this point ?
A lot of the trucks I work on are mid 80's to late 90's. We do our best to keep them up without costing huge money. We have been doing some extensive updates on wiring and hoses.
We live in a time where you can order any part & build a 1968 Chevelle if needed without going to a Chevrolet dealer . Not giving RZ any ideas .
We just spent around $15,000 on a 99 T600 with 900k miles on it. 60 series ate a valve and broke the liner and block. repowered with a salvage yard motor $8,000. did labor our self. Had the hood fixed up and repainted . rebuilt the drivers door. Replaced bushings in suspension and some other small things. The truck drives really nice and is not all loose, so we decided to keep it. The problem for us is if we buy a newer used truck, the emissions or the engine will cost us the same amount with in a year or two. Plus the cost of the truck $40,000? We have some newer ones O5, 07, and a 2010. all kw and petes. They have all cost a lot to fix the emissions. They will be good to go now. If I could go back in time I would have bought 96-03 trucks. As far as one company having all the dealers in a area. I think it suck for the customers. you have to go hundreds of miles away to get a better deal or service sometimes. I do understand why the manufacturers would rather sell to 5 big dealers in a area than 40, but it is not the best for customers sometimes.
I do miss that Chevelle.
Preferred the '66 body line.
This is one of the older caretaking projects. New steering box, replaced all the fuel lines from the filter to the tanks. Last month it got accessory drive bushings and an updated fan hub. Oh, it's an '86. 365 Cummins Big Cam
Last time I did accessory drive bushings on N14, ended up replacing cracked cam gear and replacing cam bushings/bearings. Every time you open up these oldtimers you wonder: what awaits me and how extensive the job will be?!
Yeah, these guys brought me a 3406B a year ago for an overhead and Jake adjustment. After finding coolant pooled in all the core plugs in the top of the head, it turned into a full blown inframe. And they were told it could turn into an out of frame overhaul. To them it's just part of the business.
A pic of that Cat as I was finishing up. This one is also an '86.
Sometimes cannot win for losing!!
Is it just the camera angle those stacks don't look like they will go out the overhead door behind the truck?
In frame on a b series and your good for at least 5 to 10 years rebuild a trans and rear end and then you only need to worry about a cab that's still cheaper than a new truck or a newer truck with issues
You better get your eyes checked, or have you been into the antifreeze early today? I'm betting there's at least 8" clearance. And don't ask Dmiller- he hasn't had his eye surgery yet. How's that old saying "he's blind in one eye and can't see out the other"
Well I had my eyes done last fall, maybe it's time to see if they need an after break-in time tune-up? PS: Last "anti-freeze" was about 14 hours before that post!
It might be a time to repeat! Anti-freeze I mean!
Those are 14' high doors, plenty of clearance. Probably 8" easy.
Is that a 425?
That is a disturbingly clean engine bay, does the engine have any oil in it?
Yep, plain old 7FB series with all stock timing and pump settings. The driver is more than happy with it. The other '86 with the 365 Cummins seems to run well enough for it's current driver too. They are both old school guys that realize they are responsible for keeping the engine from burning down. The newbies have to drive an electronic engine that can protect its self.
New coat of paint.
So you're saying the youngsters go down hill in the wrong gear?
No, more like going up and preventing the burn downs. Going down hill they better learn. Lucky for me I don't see much of their drivers. "Drop it at the door and I'll call you when it's done".
Not sure how far off topic we have gotten here (oops) but the Cat powered truck has gotten both rear drop ins replaced, front drive axle housing replaced, all new heater hoses, and all the suspension bushings and engine mounts replace, slowly it's becoming a newer truck. The Cummins powered rig will get new bushings and mounts soon. And they have 5 other trucks for me to play with too.
Your spot on topic RZ . Manufacturers can weed out small dealerships if need be . What they can't do is weed out independent mechanics & shops . This is about $ money ….. Customer don't like the cost at a dealership they will look elsewhere .
I thought Georgia overdrive was the best way to cool it down after roasting up the other side lol
Honestly, I don't think I can compete with dealer prices. I think I get my work from honesty and actually caring about the customer needs and concerns. Plus the simple fact that I hate electronics.
I love electronics but it seems obvious to me that manufacturers are either incompetent in designing them or are purposely trying to thwart us, or both.
Electronics are a good thing, really. remember Chevy small blocks with a carburetor? 125K miles and they were done. the Vortecs would go 425K miles just because they weren't over gassed. I don't mind the N-14 or the 3406E... But the later engines with Emissions issues, I don't want to deal with. EGR, and DEF. No Bueno. I have enough other stuff I can work on.
Exactly right. Late 90s-early 2000s things seemed to have reached their peak. It has been a downhill spaghetti nightmare since then.
Yes crossed a pinnacle on engines and controls, not sure who got what for going the route they have but have gone to producing crap, overpriced crap. I still get to play on occasion here, couple locals have some old **** they cannot locate anyone with sense as to how to work on them so call me as to what to do. Not too much hands on but can reference what the mechanic they take to had best be telling them or mansplaining to them. Set up a old 335 a little hot years ago, would roll out to 2200 pretty easy and if stayed into it to 1600 in a long hard pull could drive the pyro across 1500 degrees REALLY fast where the owner was very cautious with it, drove it four years no problems. Got injured cutting trees in a fence row put a driver on it and smoked a piscan in a week. Did a minor on it dropped throttle shaft shims back in to cut it back, swapped buttons back to original and all was good again until the owner got back in it, reverse procedure!!
Needs a good old Detroit in there to keep the rust preventive coat of oil in things!
I ran a Hustler KW with a 671.... The old fella told me to drive it like you hate it.
I worked for a fella with 35 units hauling flat bed. I was kind of a spare, so I didn't have my own truck. I took a guys truck for a run, his dad was I'll, and he had to go home. It was an 89 KW with a 425 cat, 18 speed with 373s I think. It was less than a year old, nice truck. It was hilly country, and she was working way better than the other 425s in the fleet. My dad was a t&t mechanic, so I knew enough to only push her when I needed to. The driver's father passed away, so the next trip, the boss's son took it. He must have held it because he didn't make his destination. Turns out that the driver's brother worked for cat. He cut the seals on the pump to turn her up, and put another seal on. No warranty from cat, driver was let go, and cat sent the brother to the curb to.
Burnt piston . Camshaft looks pretty good . Use a garden sprayer with diesel to hose down the skank off the crank & block . Dropped the sleeves in this afternoon .
These guys would like to have an extended hood Pete with a 12V71 for the fun of it. It would probably run every day too.
I like mineral spirits in the sprayer. (less odor) Looks good though!
So, what was the cause? Bad injector, bent cooling nozzles, enquiry minds want to know. My experience has always been burnt crowns. Never seen the skirt eaten up like that before.
That was a fuel cook off, Injector or fueling hard. Could also have been water initiated, inj tube or head leak. Installing reman heads? At least by sleeve bores kept coolant additives or filter changed and up to snuff.
Learned something new. Thanks for sharing.
Leaky fuel nozzles is what I have seen in the past. I also had a broken top ring do the same thing on a recent rebuild.
Cummins uses a Unit Injector, when they leak they smoke and miss pretty bad as at rest are Bottomed out plunger to barrel.
I've had dripping injectors before usually accompanied by a horrendous fuel knock but again I've never had to replace a piston as a result if the piston did fail it was almost always the Crown that's why that image was so surprising to me. I appreciate everyone Sharing their experiences
guess the question I might be asking is how the other five pistons and rings look?
That 335 that burned down made that piston look a lot less a problem!! It scored 1/3 the radius of the piston skirt as it went!!
All good valid points & questions . Piston oiler nozzles look good . No funky spray pattern on top of the piston crown . Keep in mind this is a 290 Cummins big cam 1 . Turbo but no aftercooler . Not that uncommon to see them " Flame " down the piston skirt . I'm guessing piston ring failure got it started . Number 4 failed and # 6 was not far behind it . Going with rebuilt injectors and keeping the old heads . This is what happens when ya keep a truck around to long ….. Ya get to work on it once in awhile . LOL !
Rebuilt injectors were $ 40.00 a piece . Also went with a rebuilt turbo at $ 595 .00 Hate to spend that kind of cash on the project . But ya got to do what ya got to do .