Over on the farmer board, it seems like there's a thread every couple weeks from guys disgusted with the Goodall's. I have had one for two years, and if it dies the next time I use it, I'll be getting another. What the hell do these guys do to them to make them fail? Use them twice a day? Chuck them into the back of the pickup so they bounce off the floor? Leave them in the rain? Nobody around here seems to have the trouble the guys further south do. Are we just more careful or what?
Not familiar with that brand around here but have seen guys with good sucess with NOCO brand jump starters. Some people can ruin just about anything. Discharge too far and never recharge properly, frozen in discharged state. Who Knows? Simon C
Also never heard of them, is that a brand more local to you through Menards or ACME? I've been running a couple of JNC jump packs for like 10 years with no complaints. That's all I have to add.
I'm running a 12/24 Goodall with no issues. Have a few friends with the 12v version don't think they've had any issues.
I have used a Goodall a little bit at one place I do some work. Have not seen it for a little though. Maybe it got stolen. If something is completely dead it did not seem to work but if the batteries are just really low it could start some pretty big stuff. Jump packs are ok for just here and there but my favorite jump starter is one I made. It is one a cart, has three group 31 batteries, 6HP engine that runs a 85A alternator, and two sets of jumper cables. You can start anything with it. Even 24v. Jump packs fully charged are 12.6V and go down from there. This jump starter keeps voltage at 13.6-14.6V.
Sounds like a heavy SOB though
I've had no issues with my NOCO, other than it didn't want to work when it was much too cold out on an also very cold backhoe, before my block heater. And, I'm not sure if the one I have is designed to attempt to start a two battery system.
The Goodall is about 15V when it's lighting things up.
If they're anything like any farmers I know probably not a whole lot of tlc.
The main thing I’ve seen kill jump packs is leaving them plugged charging all the time. I inadvertently did that and it cooked the input plug right out of it. Since then I’ve used them, charged them full, put it back in the case and it was ready when I needed it.
This is how I treat mine. Use it a few times, usually no more than twice on a big truck, or 3-4 times on a 6-8L, then plug in that night. Usually it's charged the following morning, if it's not I'll unplug it that night. I try and keep a mental note, if it doesn't get used in a few weeks, I'll charge it again. I try not to leave it in the service truck at night during the fall/winter so it doesn't freeze, but it has happened to get cold more than once.
I know it's not best practice, but I just use a DeWalt battery with a small adapter from Amazon. It has started everything I've put it on from small 4 wheelers to a Case 590 and JD550G. I am aware it puts out 18v and I am sure it's not good for newer stuff with advanced ECMs, but it sure works good and I am rarely very far away from my cordless tool batteries.
Every time farmer Grayce on you tube starts her R model mack. And burls it over and over I keep yelling you should fix that, but she never hears me.
I bought a 12 volt lithium jump starter off Amazon because it was a fair bit cheaper than an equivalent NOCO. It has paid for itself many times over. I've ran it down to about 40% but it just took longer to get a full charge. If a battery is just low you hook it up and press a button to turn it on. If a battery is dead you hold the on button for a few seconds till it beeps. Then it delivers the full voltage. It holds its charge for month's. It came with a nice case I always keep it in. I ended up getting a free air compressor too. I didn't order the air compressor but it came in the case so was a bonus. The best thing about lithium jump starters is they weigh next to nothing and fit in the palm of your hand. I'd think you'd have be trying to wreck them in order to actually damage them. Maybe leaving them charging too long or continually running them them down as low as they go is what damages them?? I've had the cables get fairly warm a couple times but didn't seem to affect it. I try not to crank too long but sometimes it just needs a few more seconds to get something started like my welder.
It is heavy. That is why I built it on a cart. I can move it around the shop or outside. I load it in a Gator and go around the equipment yard. It is bullet proof, all off the shelf components no special parts. I may make one that is lighter and it would be easier to load. I think the little jump starters are good for emergencies or just one or two starts on something big. The lithium ones can do some pretty amazing things. If you are trying to get something running that has problems they just don't cut it. How do you put the starting power of 3 group 31's in something half the size of one of those batteries. To me the science is just not there. I use the one I made to start dead equipment at an action yard on sale day. We had been carrying around a bunch of jump packs to start things. About half way through they where all dead and you where just getting to the semi's, then you where in a real mess. Now I can go around all day starting anything and it never goes dead. I realize that many of you guys would not be using one that way and need something more portable. One thing I have do on the lead/acid ones is after you start something if the alternator is working on the machine just leave the jump pack hooked up for a little bit and it will charge the pack back up. I don't think I would try that in a lithium one. I could go on for awhile about experience of starting dead things.
My jump pack starter weighs 29,000 lbs, will cruise at 78.
Well of course they don't cut it in those situations. What you're describing would be like expecting a Ford Ranger to pull start a fully loaded tractor-trailer. These Goodalls will start pretty much any piece of well-maintained equipment, but if it needs to be cranked to the degree that 2-4 Group 31s are going to have a tough time, that is expecting more than it's designed for. I would never expect a box that weighs less than half of one Group 31 battery to do the work of two or more, if that's what is needed.
Do you have any pictures of your jump cart? I completely understand what you are using it for. I've been to a local auto auction and they have a golf cart sized vehicle with a jump pack system built in to the back of it. They drive right down the row of cars, jumping any of them that won't crank on their own. I'm not sure how they charge their batteries, maybe off the golf cart engine? I didn't look that closely
Was at Bryans auction in Puslinch and they had an old tractor set up for jump starting. They welded up a 3-point basket comprised of a whole mess of batteries, Heavy welding cables and various quick connections to give any voltage needed. Looked like an IBC tote sort of thing. A 100 amp charger was in there to plug the whole lot in, when back in the heated garage.
I only use JNC jump packs but have been considering a Lithium, maybe a NOCO. Just have had good luck with the JNC’s and have actually had one fixed under warranty and one I replaced the battery’s on. The timely death of most batteries, on just about anything, is keeping them plugged in, or charging all the time. Its like an oil thread on bikes, my opinion is trickle chargers, even the smart ones, ruin more batteries faster, than anything else.
What? Now you're telling me I shouldn't be trickle charging? Oh boy.
I will try to post some pictures of it. I have never posted pictures some I'll have to figure that out. Just hang on it may be alittle till I can. I have two sets of booster cables on it, 2ga. each. The clamps I think are the bottle neck of it, that is why two sets. You can only get so many amps through the clamps. If you are starting a truck with bad batteries you put both sets on to get the amp flow you need. If it is real bad sometimes I hook one set to the starter and one set to the batteries. For 24V I can unhook a ground cable to isolate one battery and use both cables. When you do that the alternator only changes on one cable though. Usually what we do for 24V is, we have another jump starter that is similar ( version 1 ) that we use. One jump starter hooked to each battery and make sure the vehicles are not touching. The machine doesn't have a choice but to start. One of the keys to why it works so well is the engine driven alternator. Yes it keeps the batteries charged, but it allows you to rise the voltage about 2V and push more amps into the machine you are starting. If you are just starting cars and lawnmowers you don't need to have the engine running.
Sorry just now getting pictures posted.
Looks real nice!
I need to paint it but I use it so much that I have not taken the time to take it apart and do it.
Thank you for sharing, @Mr. Wrench ! I really like the set up with the hard wired jumper cables.
Thanks for giving a lot of people the idea of how to build. Good Job! Simon C
I have thought about making another one that is smaller/lighter. I tend to overbuild things and it is heavy. I would probably use lighter steel in some areas, maybe smaller wheels, stay with same size engine and alternator, but maybe one less battery. Some people say," you should put a semi alternator on it". Why, I've never ran the batteries anywhere close to died and then I would have to use a bigger engine. I may unhook one battery for a while and see how it does. It is heavy enough that I can't load it up ramps without help and it would be nice if it was lighter for when I take it away from the shop. What do you guys think? One thing that would be nice to add to it would be some of the products from Polar Wire. I saw a link on here somewhere for one of you guys in the northwest. Looks like they have some good products, bigger cable, better clamps ect. Not sure what shipping would be though.
If something like that was sold in specialty stores like truck shops it would sell for $3,000 plus. It would be a good jumper for auctions or fleets.
I have that much in it without counting much time to build it. The poor man's version of a engine driven Goodall jumpstarter.
Wow, didn't realize it would cost that much to build. It would be a lifesaver though when you really needed it.
Good grief, guys. This thread was about jump packs, not something to start a locomotive.
Sometimes you need to get multiple machines going in freezing temps so need something extra heavy duty.
I didn't say they weren't useful, if I had to crank over 30 seconds on 6-10 machines on a weekly basis, I'd definitely have something like is shown. But, I'm not going to carry a cart around in my service truck.
Ya, sorry I derailed it. The small jump pack I use is a MAC. I think the same as a JNC. It works ok if I keep it charged up. Thought about getting a NOCO one and trying that. It may have more power than the MAC but not a pricey as the Goodall.
No worries. Just hoping when my Goodall wears out, I don't have to expect a couple of junk ones before getting a good one.
I have a noco and it’s a pita. It won’t boost anything if the battery is completely dead. I set up a Milwaukee 18v with a jumper adapter and it will start anything smaller and is good for running a 12 volt winch without a battery connected. I have an old atv that sits unused a lot. I rigged up an adapter to run it off an 18v Milwaukee. Every time I used it I just lift the seat and pop in a battery and it’s good to go. I figured it out one day that I have 38 12 volt batteries in all the stuff I run so it’s hard to keep up with them all.
On my lithium jump starter you have to push a button on the cable connector for about 3 seconds in order to boost a dead battery. If the battery isn't dead you push the on button.
Years ago--all there was--was a jump cart, every shop of any kind had one. * A jump cart.
Just beware, any thing that uses a lithium ion battery can at any time catch on fire. I personally never have a lithium ion battery in a shop or garage. But then there maybe a few coin cells that are lithium. I will likely have to toss my dewalt drill since I don't think I can get any Nickel metal hydride batterys now. Someone needs to come up with an affordable outside tool battery storage container.
So, you don't use a mobile phone or a laptop? Ever??
I think poorly built lithium batteries are a problem but when have you heard of Milwaukee, Dewalt, Mikita and several other brand name cordless tool batteries catching on fire? There are probably millions of them out there. Same with cell phones. I'm not sure you can get them without lithium batteries. If you're worried keep/charge them in a metal enclosure that would contain a fire.
Have seen all brands catch fire, it’s just a matter of time. All my chargers, I wire to my light switches, so when i leave and turn the lights off, the chargers shut down. I try very hard, to never leave a battery on the charger, when it’s charged. Had a mobile work, Rubbermaid cart, set up with Milwaukee chargers and tools inside. Came out one morning, to a melted pile of plastic and burned tools, had to sawzall apart. That was an eye opener. Think tools are more likely to get dropped, jammed, busted and damaging batteries. At work, one contract was to remove 250k battery packs, for GPS and impact monitors, from battle helmets. The Military thought this would be a good idea, not understanding that this modification would void the warranty and reduce ballistic advantage. Cut all glued in sensors, with Lithium batteries, in a small Haas milling machine. For months, we had Lithium battery fires and ended up having to individually bag each battery and Uncle Sam paid for the Hazmat disposal. The smell from a lithium battery fire sucks.
Yup I do, but its sure not stored in the shop. The wife had her phone go super hot in her pocket many years ago, could have been a real disaster too, cause they can go bang as well. Airlines have adopted strict rules on the lithium battery stuff. There have been many air disasters caused from them as well in the past. The brand names don't matter, a few years ago at an expo they had to bury a lawn mower I think it was because of the fire. There was a video about a person that had a lawn care business that had their STIHL leaf blower catch fire in the pile of debris in the back of the pickup, he caught in time. BRAND OF BATTERY IS NOT THE ISSUE lithium and thermal runaway is the issue. Oh and for a metal container to work it would need to be designed like a turbine engine combustor to contain the fire when I heard they can burn down through concrete? Fire brick maybe would work I don't know, and I would think a pile of ashes won't burn. Listen to Stache D training on youtube he'll set everyone straight on these Bats and fires. Just trying to help save someone some grief. Be careful where you keep these battery's, $100,000 pickups and shops and houses is NOT where to keep them. HarleyHappy , Good post thank you for that.
Once you smell a lithium battery burning up, you never want to smell it again. Whole incident got me so paranoid, I put electrical tape over most batteries to throw in the trash, or do like razor knife blades and always keep a Gatorade bottle laying around.
My father in law lost his work shop to an old 18v dewalt battery exploding on the charger. This was in fall of 2012. He put the battery on the charger and left for the day. Within 20 minutes the battery exploded and caught a bin of dirty shop rags on fire, lighting off the structure. Total loss. Fire Department quit spraying the work shop and instead sprayed his house, 40ft away, to keep it from catching fire. It melted the aluminum siding on the house facing the fire. That was not a lithium battery, but the fire Marshall said that wasn't an uncommon fire as he saw several of them a year caused by a charging battery failure.
Local contractor lost his shop with office, dump truck and track loader inside. Fire investigator related it to a battery on charger explosion. That was four years ago.
And my .125 thick home made BBQ grille makes a perfect place to charge batteries, hood shut no air and outside. Makes a good steak too. *
That's a very well built BBQ! Have heard of a few fires but didn't realize how serious it is. Charging in a BBQ isn't a bad idea. Maybe someone should make special enclosures for charging batteries or manufacturers should have to include them. Curious what insurance companies say about electric vehicles parked/charged in garages, especially attached garages??
I'm really surprised that auto shops and dealers and other places with Li power tools not going up in smoke everyday.
Guy I worked with, down in TN, was having his 69 Chevelle, which was about as mint as it gets, was having a friend do some work done on it, in his garage. Hitachi battery started a fire, on the charger and burnt the garage with the Chevelle in it, to the ground. What do you do? Guy had no insurance on his garage, other than homeowners. Guy with the Chevelle had insurance but it was seasonal and this was in the winter. Sorry Charlie!
A little late jumping in but yesterday I used someone's DSR 12v/24v DSR166 jump pack to start a truck with the Cummins 8.3L 6CTA. Truck had lost all prime in the fuel system and they ran the batteries down to nothing cranking it. They asked me to help so I bypassed the leaking fuel system and manual primed it as best as I could before cranking it knowing I had only one or two chances to get her going. We cranked 10-15 secs with the jump pack (we disconnected the dead batteries) before she caught and ran on her own. It was the first time I ever used a jump pack so was quite impressed it could pack that much juice for a hand-held. It wasn't light as it weighed 30-35lbs (from my calibrated arm) but did the job. I looked up the spec's and it wasn't li-ion but AGM lead acid. I'm surprised it was AGM but it definitely was a brute.
Some were talking earlier about the clamps being a weak point, weld a bolt to a cheap set of visegrips and bolt the lead to them paint one red one black. For charging and changing your jump batteries from 12 to 24 welding cable quick connects work for great
Some welding ground clamps can work but they're kind of big. What's really stupid on booster cable clamps is the crappy way the cable attaches. It amazes me that no one ever thought to put welding clamp style cable attachment on booster cable clamps. A copper block with a large half round bolt to clamp the cable. Could even have a strip of copper to wrap around the cable. 1000 times better and easier to hook up than any booster cable clamps. Conventional booster packs are better than lithium boosters when you need to use glow plugs or crank for longer times. Lithium are great because of their small size and low weight.
The clamps on the DSR were pretty beefy. DSR is by Schumacher so pretty good quality but I'm sure you're paying for it compared to others. Again, I just borrowed it one time and it was the only jump packed I've ever used so use my one data point with caution. And yes, I agree 100% that alligator clamps are probably the crappiest way to connect to a electrical system as they only have a few sharp points digging into the lead terminal or post. When starting, that's a lot of current to push through a few contact points! Any trick like using bolts on vise grips will help a lot. The other thing was the truck I was jumping had a 24v starting system so current was half compared to a similar 12v. I'm sure that made a difference when using the clamps too.
I saw Milwaukee is making a jump pack that uses their tool batteries. No help for me, as all my stuff is Makita, but it does seem useful.
As long as they incorporate capacitors so it doesn't overload the battery, they might be useful. All I know, the time that I have saved over the last three years with my Goodall has convinced me that I will go to town the same day it dies and buy a replacement, even if it's well over a grand when that day comes.
Well, you're in luck. The smaller Goodall's are reasonably priced but the largest 12v version is already above a $1k. What's ridiculous is 12v/24v version is almost $2k but it's not double the capacity of the 12v. As far as I can tell, it's the same battery capacity of the $1k 12v which means you paying $1k for a switch.
The battery pack is not the same, it has at least half again as much battery as the 12 V version.
I'll split it with ya as I think we're both right as much as we're both wrong. I was looking at the specs on a random website so I decided to download the actual brochure for better info. I stand corrected as the brochure says the 12V battery is 236.8 Watt-hours while the 12V/24V is 296 Watt-hours. This means the 12/24v battery is 25% "larger" even though the max power output is still the same as the 12v version, pretty much right in between what you and I were saying. But on the flip side, I'm in real awe that a piddly 296 Wh battery can produce that much 'oompf'. I use military 12v/24v li-ion batteries in my shop and a 298 Wh is standard size for a SINGARS radio battery. https://www.bren-tronics.com/bt-70791jv.html . That's pretty impressive a 3lb battery can crank a decent sized diesel.
I guess I was guesstimating size based on the physical. Buddy has a 24V, it's pretty clumsy due to the larger size.
To mockingly quote myself, I really am impressed with the amount of power a li-ion battery pack can produce and I wanted to explain it a bit more so folks here can make up their own mind about using them or not. Here's a pic of a Cat Group 31 lead-acid battery with a military issue Brentronics BB-2590 lithium ion radio battery and a custom lithium ion battery pack I use in my prototypes. The BB-2590 is both 12v/24v while my custom li-ion is only 24v. The Cat 31 holds 100amps at 12v so 1,200 Watt-Hours (Wh) which means it more/less can provide 1,200 watts of continuous power for an hour before being completely dead. But remember that you can only discharge a typical lead acid battery to roughly 50% before it starts to sulphate (for a starting battery, not a deep cycle or AGM) so you only get ~600 Wh of usable capacity in a 55lb box with about 0.5 cubic foot (ft3) volume. The BB-2590 is rated at 298 Wh, weighs 3.1lbs and is 0.03 ft3 in volume. My custom li-ion pack has 348 Wh, weighs 3.2 lbs and occupies 0.024 ft3. You can easily discharge a typical lithium battery down to 5% ( or 95% depth of discharge) so you're getting pretty much all the capacity it has to offer. So when you compare equivalent available energy capacities in typical use, a flooded lead acid battery weighs 10x more and occupies 10x the space of an equivalent lithium battery. But the truly amazing aspect of lithium ion batteries is you can adjust their chemistries to be either extremely energy dense (like my custom packs for 4 hours of discharge) or extremely fast discharge (like certain lithium polymer cells found in the jump packs we're discussing above). If my custom pack was built with those high-discharge cells, that small pack could dump all 348 Watt-hours of capacity in only a couple mins as opposed to over a full hour. That translates to 10,440 watts of continuous power draw for that little pack for two mins. Compare that to the Cat group 31 that is rated to dump a max of 750 amps (CCA) at ~12v or ~9,000 watts of power. Granted the Cat batt can do this for 4 mins instead of just two for the li-ion but it's still impressive the li-ion can out-sprint the Cat for even a couple mins. So bottom line: a piddly lithium battery can produce more cranking power than a lead acid battery while still being only 10% the weight and size. Hope folks find this informative.
That was a good post. What do you use your battery packs for?
I don't understand battery tech at all but is there a reason we don't use those instead of normal starting batteries? Can we charge them with an alternator like we do with our normal batteries? I understand the fire risk is greater but it seems like an interesting option.
We build portable air cooling/ventilation systems the military. Think of a ruggedized, overbuilt fan that runs on batteries and is used to keep maintenance crews cools when working on hot equipment in hot environments.
Lithium ion automotive batteries are readily available on the market but they are still expensive compared to lead acid batteries when used as a starting battery in automotive setups. A cheap (i.e. unreliable) lithium ion automotive battery is still 2-3x the price of a lead acid. The other reason is you don't see lithium ion used as a starting battery is lead acid can take a lot of abuse and operate over a much broader range of operating temperatures whereas lithium ions don't like to be situated in a hot engine bay before they begin to degrade. Even the Goodall jump pack operating manual says: "Operating Temperature. This product is designed to be stored in temperatures between 40° F and 75° F (4° C and 24°C). The unit can be operated in temperatures between -4° F and 140° F (-20° C and 60° C). Do not operate outside of this temperature range." So basically, you're keeping your jump pack in the garage and only taking it out of a protected environment when you need it. But if you need a deep cycle battery that can produce lots of power compared to it weight and size, then yes, lithium ions are the right choice. That's why a lot of the serious RV/camper folks use lithium ion as they storage batteries when off the grid. Same reason why lithium ion made electric cars feasible. No way could an electric car built with lead acid batteries achieve the distance-to-weight ratios you find with today's EV's. I personally don't think lithium batteries are the right solution for starting motors today. Maybe tomorrow with improved chemistries and technology, but for today, lead acid is much cheaper and more reliable over extreme temps.
Good info, thanks @LCA078 !