Early to mid '80s (guessing there) Deere 401C diesel followed me home today. It runs but needs sleeve orings. The coolant dumps into the pan and turns the oil into a milkshake. It's got about 5K hours on the clock, and seems complete. It's a stout little machine. That front axle is beefy for such a small tractor. I'm excited to tear into it!
Can someone set me straight here? Stanadyne pump, no pump output - no cheech. So I took the governor cover off, cleaned it out, dumped in some fresh fuel. Cranked it, and no new fuel is being brought into the pump body. With the cover off, it should have overflowed. It didn't. I took the inlet cover off, expecting to see a vane pump that's seized or trashed or something, but the vane pump is fine. So have a look at the pics. If I put shop air into the pump where the red circle is, shouldn't I see bubbles coming up in the governor chamber?
Does that engine not have a fuel transfer pump on it and is it ok?
It's got an engine driven lift pump on the engine and a vane pump in the Stanadyne.
To answer my own question, yes it should. The fuel circuit splits off in the pump housing. One branch goes to the metering valve and on to the pumping elements, and one branch goes through a 12-pt screw in the bottom of the pump housing, through a little check valve in that screw, and into the governor housing. That screw was blocked with rust and debris, so my governor housing wasn't getting fuel, and the passageways in the pump head and the plungers were so gummed, fuel wasn't going that way either. I've attached a pick of the pump head. It's pretty bad. I'm not sure it's salvageable at this point, but I'm going to keep trying to clean it up, and see what happens.
This is my brilliant photography and artistic skills in one! I was cleaning out the pump head, and I took out the 3 screws, at location A, B and C to clean out the passages. In the background, it's blurry I'm sorry, is a little rod that fell out of one of those locations. I wasn't watching for it, and out it came. Can anyone tell me what hole it came from? There are 2 that are long enough to fit it in.
That rod fits in A or B. C is too short of a hole. FYI.
Is that called the vent wire?
In the parts breakdown from Deere it shows the dowel opposite the set screw side. So I would say hole “A”
It more than likely needs liners with that many hours. I bet there is pitting deep enough to go through the liner causing your milkshake issue.
Thank you so much! I looked on Deere's site and they didn't have anything published for the 401C. The pic is blurry just like mine are. I thought it was me, but it must be this site. It looks like 1 and 3 are the screws, but it looks like 2 and 4 are dowels maybe? And what's 5?
I took care of a customers 410 a year or so ago, and he had used regular glycol antifreeze for years. Up until that point I had heard of wet sleeve cavitation, just never seen it. It was wild that the holes not only went all the way through, but they looked like little funnels. Wider on the outside of the sleeve (coolant side), and down to a pinhole on the piston side. I was all excited when I saw it, it was just that fascinating. The owner was a little less excited.
It also looks like 1 is a slightly bigger screw than 3. That's also a clue. "A" (in my pic) is a bigger screw than the others.
I found the diagram on Deere's site. I don't know why I couldn't find it before... https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/59829/referrer/navigation/pgId/171841 anyway the diagram shows #1 as a screw, and shows 2 required, so that would mean it's one of the smaller ones, and that would make it B. It also shows #4 as a retainer, and it looks stacked in with the dowel, which is not there as far as I can tell. Well, I have confused the hell out of myself.
Your vent wire retainer goes in B.. The vent wire itself is probably stuck in the head.. there’s a special tool that will take it out. U need to seal the threads on all 3 screws when you put it back together.. do not use loc-tite.. Had u started your thread about inj pump problems I would have been here sooner.. I usually skip over any thread that list just the engine or say nothing about inj pumps.!!!
Hey! I was hoping you were still around . So that rod is the retainer? So the vent wire itself is buried deeper in B? Thank again!
Yes.. a lot of times if u slam the head WITHOUT THE ROTOR, flat on a table.. 2-3x it’ll come out..
Very cool thank you so much.
If u get it out, run your fingers up and down the wire (both) and take off any burrs that u feel.. Normally a wire wheel will pull them off, but if not, it’s acceptable to touch it/them to a grinder.. DO NOT LETM FLY.!! Hold on tight..you’ll never find it/them.
I whacked it alright. Whacked it good. Whacked it until my hands hurt. For the life of me, I can't tell if anything's in that hole, and possibly more importantly, whatever it is, isn't coming out. I think I found a reference to the tool I need to extract it. What is a vent wire, and is it something I really need to remove?
I said, 2-3x.!! Lol The vent wire is what’s stuck.. The bigger one is the vw retainer.. u wouldn’t be the 1st one that left it in (stuck)., If u have some REAL GOOD penetrating oil, spray it down and let it sit overnight and try again.. OR put it together and don’t worry about it. Did u get a kit.?? 24371..?? Most importantly is to make sure the pumping plungers are free..
R u taking out the delivery valve.?? By the looks of things u probably should.. Only problem is, # 9 HAS TO BE TORQUED to 90 inch lbs.. If the dv is stuck OR the plungers r stuck, the pump won’t pump..
Why not throw that “garbage” in a couple ziplock bags along with a blank check and send it to SC…
Hadn't ordered the kit yet, that's a tomorrow thing. I did not take the delivery valve out. I will now though . That pump head had been soaking in PB for a few days as it was. I actually used the PB and WD40 to clean out the passages. I think I'll just leave it in there.
It actually went well, except for the goofy wire. It's actually cleaning up well, plungers are nice and smooth. I think it's gonna work.
Give me the name of your company, I'll buy the kit from you. It's the least I can do.
Sorry friend, I don’t sell parts. Was your flex ring intact or broken.?? Or did it have a solid weight cage.?? If it has a plastic flex ring, u should consider getting a solid cage..
Gotcha. Solid cage. The thing ran for a few minutes when I bought it a few weeks ago, and judging by how bad the pump looked, I can't even begin to explain that. Maybe the fuel in the pump was good, and the fuel in the tank was bad, and as soon as the good fuel was displaced by the junk from the tank, it went TU. I don't know, that's the only thing I can think of. Wierd.
What thread locker do you recommend for the screws in the pump head, if not loc - tite?
Sorry I missed this.. U don’t need a thread locker.. U need a thread sealer..
No worries! A thread sealer as in regular pipe dope?
Carburettor and Throttle Body cleaner spray is good for unsticking parts gummed up by old dried-out diesel.
Real quick too. The cleaning of the pump is going well. I think I'm going to pick up a rust dip this week. There's lots of nooks and crannies and small parts that I think a dip would really help speed things along. It's taking forever with a dremel.
My delivery valve is stuck in the rotor. I got the cap and spring out, but the valve itself is in there. I'm thinking there's enough pressure behind that valve that it'll just open when the pumping starts. Is that reasonable? Also what thread sealant should I use for those tiny screws in the pump head (the one for the vent wire, for instance)?
If the dv is stuck now, it’ll be stuck later.. Go ahead and use whatever u want to on the threads.. U don’t have the proper tools to do it right.. R u replacing the liner, blades, mv, dv, pilot tube, dv spring.?? Probably not.. U better go watch more utube videos..
Watching YouTube is what got me into this trouble in the first place. I used grease and got it out. It was stuck in there so badly, I don't see how any tool would have worked. Seal kit comes tomorrow. If I'm lucky I met get the motor running this weekend. Not likely though.
Learning a lot about pumps in this process. Like the fact I was woefully unprepared for this job. If there is a next time, I'll know better. Today's lesson is about the roller clearance. Since my plungers were stuck, there's no way I could have got a measurement when the pump came apart. That would have been preferable. I could have measured the ends of the spring, but I didn't. For today, I found a few pump spec sheets and I'm using 1.965. I don't even know if that's correct for my pump, but that's the closest I could fine and the rotor looks just like it did when it came apart, so I'm guessing it's ok.
What r u going to do if this doesn’t run.?? Or if it does run and u can’t control the rpm’s and it punch’s a hole in the block.?? Is all this anguish worth it to save the money.?? for what.??
Did u check the front pilot tube for grooves.?? Just run your finger down the tube, if u feel any grooves, the tube needs to be replaced.
Tube is nice and smooth. Hopefully with new seals, It'll stay that way. I don't experiment when it comes to customer machines, but this one is mine and I wanted to learn. This is how we do it right? We learn by doing. Well, at least I do. I don't consider it anguish. It's definitely a tedious PITA though; I've learned that much. If it doesn't run, I'll try to figure out where I went wrong. Same goes for it blowing up. Are you saying I'm going to make the local news with my 1.965? I can't remember now where I got that number.
Make sure you video the block being ventilated at 8000 RPM! - this kind of great footage sells well, and might even pay for a whole new engine!
Hah! I'd definitely make the news then. The headlines would read: "Suburban Denver Home Turned Into A Crater. Authorities Baffled". Great for my YouTube channel. Not great for business
No explosion today. No nothing. I got the pump back on and hooked up, and made sure it was fed with fresh fuel. I cranked it for a while, with the top vent off, expecting to see fuel coming out at some point, but that point never came. So I took the governor cover off, and put a little fuel in there, and cranked again, expecting to see the level rise, and fairly quickly. The fuel level did rise, just sllooowly. As in maybe 20 cranks to get 1/8" rise in fuel level. Before I took the pump off initially, I took the cover off, partially filled it with fuel, and put shop air in the inlet, and I didn't even get bubbles in the housing. That's when I decided the pump was shagged. I did the same thing today, and I got bubbles. so I know air can make it into the housing, but that vane pump is just not pumping. Or the relief is relieving too much. I can't play with it anymore today either, it's time to go feel Mary. or Merry. Or something like that.
Bummer.. At least u didn’t hafta call the fire dept.. Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas to you too!
One step closer today. I had no transfer pressure, so I took the relief valve out again, and found I didn't put the spring back in. The valve was going into full relief all the time. Bummer, except for I found the spring on the floor! I thought that thing would be long gone, but I got lucky, and cleaned it up and put it back in. So now I'm fueling. The last thing I'm checking is to make sure the pump stops pumping when I shut it off. I want to try to make sure I have control of that engine. Of course, the ventilated crankcase would definitely be more fun, I wanna hear this little piggy run.
I feel bad for the guy, but you called it.
Relief valve.?? Huh.??
Pressure regulator, not relief valve. There's a fly in my ointment. More accurately a leak in my hydraulic system. Looks like it's near the steering. The reason why this is important is because this is a closed-center system, and the pump wants to build standby pressure before de-stroking. Once it builds standby pressure, it de-strokes and unloads the engine, which unloads the starter motor. This would normally look like a brief heavy load on the starter motor 10-20 seconds in, and then the starter could continue cranking the engine without the hydraulic pump making that harder. Since I apparently have a leak somewhere, that pressure never builds. Or at least doesn't hold. So the hydraulic pump is always looking for it's 2200 psi (or whatever it is), and keeping a heavy load on the engine. In the Deere world, this problem has a long and storied past, and the band-aid is to wiggle the steering wheel back and forth while cranking, to keep the system from building pressure and allow cranking. Goofy, but effective. There is also a manual de-stroking kit you can buy (or make) to keep the stroke control spool valve in the pump from moving, effectively taking the pump (and the whole system) offline while you get the engine to fire. This kit is popular with guys who operate in colder climates. I'm going to either make or buy that kit and install it, because again, all I'm trying to do is get this thing running enough to get it in the shop, and out of the cold. It's been pretty mild weather around here so far, but that's going to change and soon.
She's a runner! I did almost ventilate the case because as soon as she chugged to life, it tried to rev to the moon. Thankfully I was ready for this and had a board handy to cover the intake. I must have installed the linkages wrong. There is a threaded hole in the pump body toward the rear that just had a short screw (plug) in it. I put a longer screw in there to force the regulating valve closed, and I can control rpm that way. So that tells me, I think, that the rest of the pump is probably ok. I'm going to take a closer look obviously, but for now it's running and actually sounds good.
Got er. I had installed a washer on the front end of the governor spring. That disrupted the balance of control inside the top cover. Just the addition of the washer put enough tension on that spring, it effectively prevented the governor linkage from closing the metering valve, so it was held wide open. Runs like a champ now.
BIG shout out to thepumpguysc. You came through for me again. You're a mensch. Thank you!