Check out the video. Motion sensors hooked up to two Grader operators one with joystick (easy), other with traditional multi-levers (very busy). Illistrate less hand and body movements with Joystick control on a M-Series Grader! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrulpemrcog
video?
I am still learning, just uploaded to youtube and will link to my post.
I remember watching that video when they were first introducing the M series
Looks like another way to make us operators even more fat and lazy!!:stirthepot I have never had the chance to run a new M series blade, and the only one I've ever seen was plowing snow in Boundary County, Idaho the other day. But to me it looks like it might be a bit more user friendly than the H or G's were, although it might take a while to get used to it. I would love the opportunity to try one some day. Trouble is, the company I work for dosent do alot of projects that require a blade. And the few we do, we have two 14G's and a 16G to handle the blade work. So I cant really forsee one in the near future! Jason
Maybe my buddy Steve will chime in here. He's got 400 hours or so on his 140M. His initial statement after running it for 25 hours was that he wanted to burn it. But now he loves it. I think it would be real hard to switch back and forth. I only have a few minutes in one but found it hard to do multiple tasks delicately. Such as steering the front wheels (lean the stick), use the rear steer (twist the stick) and change elevation of the blade end (push/pull the stick), all with the left hand, at the same time. If I concentrated on one task I lost track of the others. But again, that was with only a few minutes of use. Definitely not trying to start a war. I think this is the way of the future.
Ovrszd, the rear steer is a lot easy now too, has a handy return to straight button so when your coming out of a pass you hit the button and it self straightens for you. Less to worry about when setting blade up for the next run!
Best technology ? Hello Ovrszd, I definetly, think you are clearly wrong , to think this is ,the way of the future, sorry if it sounds, like a personal attack, not meant to be ! The definition between the controls, or commands is undiscernable, at times, as to what is happening. In other words the computer controls or commands ! Not what the OPERATOR wants ! I found that in the O&M Manual ! The literature or Language describes, as the Operator following commands ! Not the way I am used to doing , the Operator Command' s! In other words, the OPERATOR is Subserviant to the Computer ! Who controls whom ! seems to becoming an issue in the computer age ! This is why I like the "H Series " Graders ! I am in control ! I know what I want to do ! Human Intelligence is superior to artificial intelligence ! :usa
M control Northart what book did you read? From the Operation and Maintenance Manual, 140M Motor Grader, June 2007, page 51....Blade Lift for the Right Side.... Blade Lift....."Pull the right hand joystick rearward in order to raise the right end of the blade..... If that is your idea of the operator following commands, so be it. Someone has to decide when to lift the blade, the book tells you what it takes to make that happen. And you say....In other words, the OPERATOR is Subserviant to the Computer ! ....I say no different than what allows you to read the words here. The controls on an M work fine for me. The hydraulics operate when you move the lever a certain DISTANCE, not when you feel RESISTANCE, your mind has to train your hand to do that. The clutch and brakes function when you move the pedal a certain DISTANCE, not when your foot feels RESISTANCE, your mind has to train your feet to do that. You are familiar with an H or G, easy to run for you, don't have to think about the controls. Get in the M, have to think hard, learn new ways, mind can get stressed. Run the M long enough, easy to run, don't have to think about the controls, happy driver. And you say......I know what I want to do ! Human Intelligence is superior to artificial intelligence !...... Absolutely right. Now put that intelligence to work, you aren't about to be beat by some computer, are you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czgb2sssxhI&feature=PlayList&p=1D50FF4CBC11AF44&playnext=1&index=4 I found this video helpful, for those who have never ran the new joysticks. I think that the steering would be the hardest part, with not having a steering wheel!
I understand what Northart is saying. I also can relate to that feeling of not being in control. Over the years we've lost control as operators. I haven't ran an H model but isn't the engine controls "drive by wire". In other words, isn't the throttle an electronic, computer controlled rheostat device?? No cable or throttle linkage?? So this computer controlled machine has been in the making for quite a while now. The M model just accelerated that conversion. The M has a lockout switch that defeats all the controls except front wheel steer. When Steve transports he locks everything out. Feels safer because he doesn't have to worry about erroneously ramming the blade into the ground when he hits a bump in the road or rear steering himself off the road when meeting a vehicle on a narrow road. I stand by my statement that this is the way of the future. Sadly I think that's driven more by manufacuring costs than by what we as operators want. It's a lot cheaper to control a hydraulic valve with a solenoid than it is to add a manual controller and linkage. John Deere tried this method over twenty years ago with their electronic over hydraulic controls but technology wasn't perfected and there were a lot of failures. If Cat has done their homework this model should work fine. I also can relate to what sdpete said in his description about how the M controls function. He's exactly right, you feel no resistance in the joysticks. You have to teach yourself to time the movement or measure the distance depending on what function you are performing. I think that's the learning curve. I think that's what Steve struggled with. Now he has taught his brain and the functions come smoothly to him. I like the rear steer function Blade Man is talking about too. Very handy when coming out of a turn around situation. My problem was when altering the rear steer function as I also changed front tire direction and elevation of the blade. But again, I think these issues can be overcome and would become natural after use. Lastly, I'm all about technology. As was mentioned earlier, without technological advances we could not have this discussion. Sometimes I struggle with the speed of these advances but I'm trying. I'm a 57 year old Soldier, Army First Sergeant, drafted and sent to Vietnam as a grunt at 19. Today I struggle with the ideals and methods of the young Soldier. What does he/she know?? Where were they when I was hitting a hot Landing Zone in Vietnam and jumping out of a Huey?? Then one of those young Soldiers takes the time to show me how to use a GPS or a Night Vision Scope and I wonder where I've been???? :usa
Commands ? Hello Sdpete, I read the O&M Manual located behind your seat. I don't have a copy right here at home, wish I would of copied the section I am referring to. The language , "when the operator requests 3rd gear " or what ever it was, "REQUESTS" LOL Think it was in the transmission section ??? Since when does an OPERATOR REQUEST ???? LOL I have always Commanded ! The manual looks like it was written by a college student, unfamiliar with the grader. Certainly not by a experienced technical writer. I've never had a G or H Series machine shut down, by a computer ! For instance "Align Steer Lever code" till that is resolved you can't move . "Parking Brake On" code when it is not ! "Brake Pressure Low " , "Transmission Filter Plugged " The numerous error codes I experienced,Brand New Cat 14M, drives a guy nuts ! To fiddle with the steer lever for a few minutes to 30 minutes or more to make it work ??? Constantly ! To shut the engine off and turn the master key off,for one minute , to reboot the computer !! The Brake Pressure Low required a Cat Mechanic to come out 125 miles to the job with a laptop to diagnose the trouble ! Book said to look for low Nitrogen in the accummulators, they were filled to spec. The laptop said the solenoid on the starter was bad. Wrong again ! Finally found another redundant solenoid hidden behind a electrical panel. That was the culprit ! Another trip to town and back to get the part. Lost 2 days work ! I just finished , working a Cat 14H grader,for 2 years , and never had any down time, except for changing cutting edges and a set of tires , which was done after shift. Total reliability. Hello Ovrszd, Technological advances ??? Phooey on that, when you don't have the ability to do field repairs ! When it takes a Dealer mechanic with a laptop,to find the trouble ??? Lost production is valuable ! Yes, I see what is happening, cutting the cost of manufacturing , cheaper, more plastic and wire. Creating a captive maintenance customer. The 2 pictures are of the Mechanic with laptop plugged into the machine. The comapny field mechanics are limited to basic maintenance. Buying a laptop for $$$$$$$ thousands still limits what they can do. Looks like the traditional, highly skilled mechanics, and Operators are being replaced with a new generation, of computer geeks . Just my opinion .
I run other machines than a grader I don't get to run them much. I understand the joysticks have buttons that give the levers different functions. I've run dozers that had a button to change the tilt to angle, I found it very difficult to get used to. I don't like forklifts that have buttons like that either because I can't do two things at once. I cannot see how this will make grader operation any easier because when the same lever controls different things depending on what button is pressed it has to make it harder to do multiple things at once. In my opinion electronic pilot controls work great on an excavator or crane where you are not bouncing around so much but in machines where you are moving more it's harder then the old controls to work them smoothly.
Controls Hello Buckethead, Yes, you have the right idea. The old lever style you can rest your hands and arms on the levers while working, and not fear of moving the slightest, and having an unintended movement of the grader. The excavator style controls, on the M Series suck in my opinion. I would of used the Dozer control style, like on the new K Series dozers. The "T" handle type. Here you rest you hand on the control, versus the wrist rest on the excavator style or M Series. I don't think Cat put enough testing into the controls, for the best functional use . Like the lean wheel buttons are out of the reach of my thumb, unless I shift my hand. My thumb is 1/2" too short maybe . LOL Enough.
How do you guy's type for so long? Anyone getting cramps in their two fingers yet? lol All jokes aside this is a very interesting thread. I can see all sides have very good points. Gee Ovrszd I even agree with you on some of your points Lol...are you coming close to swearing Northart? Again great discussion Guy's. I would love to comment and compare, but unfortunately I've never tried a "M" series.
Syntax ? Hello Grader4me, That would be the construction vernacular coming out in descriptive terms, not meant for polite audiences ! :Banghead LOL The emotions surpassed the cyberspace censors ! LOL :drinkup There is plenty to compare to, when I've run graders and all kinds of heavy equipment, going on 40 years. To me it is apparent of many short comings in the design. Flaws dare I say the word ! Anyway I am adaptable as one guy challenged me ! I will live with it , but I will flee the instant, someone else comes up with the product I like ! Reminds me of the Service rifle , the M-14 vs the FNFAL competition. The FNFAL was the superior rifle, yet the USA adopted the M-14 because of the Kennedy's. Made in Massachusetts. Over 90 countries adopted the FNFAL, yet not one adopted the USA M-14 !! Anyway, thanks for the observation . :drinkup
I just don't see any way for us to escape the computer issue. Again, I'm not familiar with the H model but I am familiar with the John Deere BH, CH and now D models. Each time there was a model change the amount of functions controlled by computer increased. I would be correct to assume that same type of change took place with Cat and their G, H and now M models. As I mentioned earlier, I'm pretty sure the H model throttle is controlled by computer. If that function fails you aren't going to fix it with a pair of pliers. You are going to call a mechanic and he's probably going to plug a laptop in to diagnose the problem. I contend that if Cat has done their research and development properly this new fangled M model will work just fine. I would never claim there won't be growing pains. I've read a lot of posts on this forum about issues they are having. But I've also read a lot of positive posts about modifications that corrected most of those problems. John Deere is preparing to release an electronically controlled grader similar to the Cat M but using small finger levers rather than two joysticks. I don't want that change. I want to stick with the old standby lever system. But then I use one hand lift controls while most experienced operators scoff at that idea!!! In their minds the lift levers belong on each end of the rack. I think that's very inefficient. One hand controls are so much more useable. In the same sense someone that has perfected the use of joysticks would look at my idea and say it's inefficient. They would say the joystick is so much more efficient than my one hand lift control rack. Does that make them wrong or me wrong??? Nope. Just an evoluntionary step. That's what this is all about. The evolution of machinery. Look how long the Dozer world hung on to the old lever style controls. It was the influx of other brands into the market that motivated Cat to change their design. That same fear that they are going to be left behind is what has motivated Cat to take the lead and make an evoluntionary jump into the future with their joystick controlled M model. I applaude their bravery. :notworthy
Flawed thinking ? " I just don't see any way for us to escape the computer issue. " :deadhorse Our society has Political Flaws and Technological Flaws. If you repeat a mantra or dogma long enough, even though flawed, people will eventually accept it as the truth ! "Read my lips, No new Taxes" "Save the Children" "There is weapons of mass destruction in Iraq " "Our Mission is accomplished " "Our economy is doing real good " "There is no recession " The computer ........................????????????? I believe in what works ! The Cat H series graders are a CLASSIC . Even Coca Cola returned to the Old Formula as Classic Coke . I rest my case ! :deadhorse
Okay Northart, I hear you. Although I'm not sure what political statements have to do with this discussion. I challenge you to go 24 hours without using a computer. Or better yet. I challenge you to honestly report to us all of the computers you use today. Don't forget to list the computer in the H model if you happen to run it today. Also, don't forget to report the one you are on now. I guess if your stand is that computer technology is a flaw in our society then you are right, we are certainly beating a dead horse. :notworthy
Discussion ? Hello Ovrszd. The Political statements are to illustrate how you are sold goods, ideas, beliefs,etc. In other words, "Brainwashing" . The North Koreans brainwashed captured American GI's into turncoats. Remember that ? General Westmoreland said we are winning the VietNam War, by attrition, inflated body counts, is what they were. Gov. George Romney of Michigan, went for a visit to VietNam, and came back and said the American public was being brainwashed into believing, we were winning the war . Remember that ?? Has your home computer been trouble free ?? How about virus's and MS updates , security patches ?? How long has it been down ? How about technology ? Recalls by the auto industry . Remember Ralph Nader and the Corvair, Pinto ? The older technology, hydraulics, mechanically controlled engines, transmissions, were much more reliable,simple, easier to maintain, fix, cost less ,etc. In my opinion ! No computer ever shut them down ! I been on jobs where dozers, ADT's , excavators,Pickups also, can't perform just because, of the sensors, computer, electrical connections, malfunctioning ! If you think that is fun, then I invite you, to come up here, and work awhile on some of these remote construction jobs, and try and get something done, under the circumstances. I'll bet you will be swearing in no time, like most others have. LOL :usa Yes, I am open minded , about new stuff. I investigate , out of curosity, to see if there is a miracle or vast improvement . Wait and see , not in a rush to jump on someones bandwagon . I've been on a meat,potatos,vegtables,milk , coffee, beer, for a staple lifetime diet. Works ! :usa I don't eat them other crappy diets . No brainwashing is going to coinvince me, to change diets ! LOL Have I flogged this argument enough. , :deadhorse enough . LOL
On diet, operators are getting less fit, bigger, and bulgier. There is hardly an operator I have come across who isn't falling out of the seat. Operators are big, and they aren't getting smaller. All that I can say is that the joysticks are the route of all evil. What happens to kids who sit in front to the TV all day playing video games with joysticks? Obesity. I believe that the conventional controls are much more of a workout compared to vegging behind two joysticks. Has anyone actually done a study into how many calories you burn working a conventional grader compared to joysticks? Am I missing the plot or what?
Now there's a different take boys! Debate that one! LOL. Great post Bellboy lol. MKTEF where are you? :falldownlaugh
Wow Northart you covered the whole planet and the last five decades with your last post. I remember all of the references you gave. I particated in most of them. I wasn't personally involved in Korea. But as a Soldier I take offense at your statement that captured American Soldiers were brainwashed into turncoats. That's a broad brush you are painting with Art. I believe you owe any Korean veteran on here an apology. I'll wait for that apology before answering the next claim you made. Where's the Unamerican smiley, I can't seem to find it. Once again, to make a point you have launched a personal attack. Unacceptable Art, unacceptable.
I agree with your perspective. But I don't think that was the intent of modernization of construction equipment. It was more of a side effect. I think the first step down that road in graders was the switch from gear operated to hydraulic. I think there was a large change in energy used between those two types of machines. I started on a gear operated machine with a marginal heater and no AC. There was a huge difference in how perky I was at the end of the day. I'm not sure there would be much difference between the modern hydraulic/lever controlled machine and the new joysticks. I sure don't burn much energy running our machine. Then to top it all off I operate in a T-shirt year around using climate control. Not much of an exercise program!!!
Guy's i enjoy the debate here... But... When we start discussing the change in easiness in operating equipment, and out of that, has found the reason for the increase in average weight.... :ban Mind is over mater.. As we say here; eat as much as u burn. You deside by yourself, how much u add into your hole. If you eat like a horse, and move like a hippo, you'l soon look like a hippo. I know that i am stepping on many toes here...but this is a exploding problem all over the world.(and i myself have to be carefull too..) We should everybody take this in over us, and spend time to move, more than in front of the computer. Regarding the topic; computers is here to help us. Problem is, the perfect one is not prodused yet. But the manufacturers do their best to get them work as planned... And we should help them by giving good feedback. And when we talk about the environment Northard is working in, it is classed as C3; severe cold/C4; extreme cold, in the NATO Stanag 2895.(-56 and -68 degrees as lowest temps) UK MOD says the following about that climate: "Material intended only for artic use should be designed to operate in categories C0, C1 and C2, and in particular cases C3 and C4." I would not put that demand into any equipment intended to also be used in the hotter areas of the world. Any produser has problems produsing something good enough for C3... We are talking about using special components that is not functioning in pluss 30....Door gaskets as an example... http://www.dstan.mod.uk/data/00/035/04000400.pdf
Before computers it actually seemed like fewer breakdowns. And when there were, the field mechanic,(or sometimes the operator) would have it running again quickly. Nowadays when something craps out, with a lot of things you have to call the dealer technician, God only knows how long it takes for him to get there. A lot of downtime. Yes computers and electronics work great, in a climate controlled office. But put that computer in a machine working on a barge on salt water where some salty moisture in the air is inevitable, and see how it works.
My name is Grader4me and I'm an eataholic....Sorry, I just got a charge out of Bellboys post. Carry on Gentlemen!
Yeah, I did too. Reminded me of the first time I saw a D model Deere at our dealership. I said how come they made the doors bigger??? The salesman said because operators were too fat to get in the old doors and were complaining about it. He said come here I'll show you what I mean. Down the row a few machines was a used CH model they had just traded for. It had a barn rope tied to the mirror bracket with knots about a foot apart. He said the operator couldn't climb up the steps and get in without using the rope!!! Heheheheheh.
I hear ya Buckethead. I think there are applications where computers should be avoided but not sure how to accomplish that. Generally, again I say generally, a modern computerized machine will outwork a grader that doesn't have a computer. Before you argue that you need to consider how many model changes you have to go back to before finding a machine without a computer. As for Deere, you would have to go back to a B model to get operation that isn't controlled by computer. I believe they stopped making the B model around 1996. I can't verify that the last year of that model didn't have computerized operation. As for Cat, I'm sure you would have to go pre H model and maybe pre G model. The Cat guys can clarify when that was???
Brainwashed ? Hello Ovrszd, Whoa, wait a minute, Lets clarify this further, about the Korean GI 's that were POW's. I did not say ALL , Korean POW's. I belong to the VFW ( VietNam ) and that is where the info came from. The VFW National Magazine. There was a real long piece about POW's/MIA's from all the wars(WW1 to Gulf 1) in it. This was quite a few years ago, I know I don't have it. There was a number of Korean GI that refused to be repatriated. They were called turncoats. That is what I was referring to. That is documented ! Most knowledgeable people know about it. There are a number of other articles and books relating to the brainwashing techniques of the North Koreans. You are reading way,way too much into my posts ! There is no intent to slander you or any other readers. I sure wish I had that VFW Magazine now to back me up. I do have other POW/MIA books here on the shelf. I suggest you read some, for your education. POW/MIA's Report of the "Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs United States Senate " Report # 103-1 Ask your US Senator for a copy. That is where I got mine. "A Bright Shining Lie , by Neil Sheehan" a History about the VietNam War ! "Inside Hanoi's Secret Archives by Malcom McConnell". A real expose of the POW/MIA issue. You might be shocked by the revelations , when you read all these books . Lastly I don't need to apologize for stating facts ! If you wish to carry this discussion further, please PM , so it can be done off the HEF BB. Hope this clarifies things for other readers .
Brainwashed ? Okay, here is something to back up the KoreanTurncoat story . I'm sure there is more, ......... http://www.questia.com/googleSchola...pp5fzcy3nGgcsszQr!-344819173?docId=5001326684 The Art of Persuasion, Advertising, The control of National Media, Brainwashing, etc are another subject, too volitile to continue on a BB related to heavy equipment . Nuff said !
Ok. maybe I am not following, but it seems we have strayed from the original topic...:beatsme
I think by this point most readers of this thread would agree with your final words....
Limited Rules ? Hello Steve, Granted, within the limited rules , economic considerations, emotions spill over. Even in cyberspace. Thank you Steve , for your considerations, in allowing the , clarifications, rebutals. Sincerely , Northart
AMEN NORTHART!!! ALL THE WAY!!! Finally someone who understands my rant. To hell with the joysticks, give me back my levers. Flawless in design. Reliable as a hangover. I have ran my M for over 2000 hrs. and belive me I can run it fine. Damn sure better than anyone else around here...but do I like it?? HELL NO!! comfortable yes, practical NO. Some advantages of the M grader but unless you've ran one, shut up! nobody cares about a hypothesis. They are a damn headache and the MAN is right!! OH listen to the sound of the fault alarm!!
Awww Jeeezzz!!! Here we go again!!! At least you haven't attacked my patriotism yet!!!
Joystix thumbs up All in the head, we can all think how we want. The 140M here is a keeper. It does what a grader does, but the driver has to learn to do it a different way. Change is not always easy.
Nice picture!
Great picture Pete. Your roads look a lot like mine. Dozer work in the summer would sure lighten the grader work in the winter!!! I'm hoping to not use my wing this winter, but if I do I'll take some pictures. My wing is an oddity. Edit: Forgot to comment on your statement about joysticks. I totally agree. Operational adjustments are necessary for the operator to get the most out of the design. In this case, I think it's a pretty steep learning curve in the beginning.
I don't agree with you GPS Grader. I don't have 2000h in our graders, bout i would never go back. Then we haven't got any foults that has stopped me from using the graders. Every time i go out and crank her up all works as it should. Only problem was one time when the movement sensor was bent out of the direction, just checked the faultcode, instruction manual, and moved it back in line. What i hear all over, is that Cat released their M's with to little test and verification.
I think that might be true. A year ago there were a lot of posts on here about problems with the M. Slow steering, rough transmission shifts, fault codes, etc. There seemed to be a lot of operators posting good things and bad. Not sure what happened to all that traffic??? I'd like to hear from those operators now, a year later, to see how things are going with the upgrades. As usual in human nature, seems the majority of posts now are complaints. The operators that like the machines are content to just run them and not post I guess?? I appreciated sdpete's input and picture and Randy's thread about his work with his 16M.
working the gremlins out Last spring a field follow engineer from Cat visited, he was interesting to listen to. Cat did plenty of testing, he had worked with M development for years. But you guys have got to know that the first units sold on newly designed models are about the equivalent of final stage testing. If perfection is expected buy the old model and let someone else work the bugs out of the new one. Been there, done that. The township was working up a trade at the time the H came out, salesman said we could get either a 140G or 140H, he thought the H would be ok but it was sorta new and the G would certainly be dependable. The board went with the G and I plowed snow with that thing for 5 years then time to trade, got a 140H. After a season in that I was disgusted over what those past 5 years could have been. Fast forward to 2007, time to trade again, M model available. I offered my thoughts, and combined with other positive factors the board went for it. We knew there could be issues but also believed Cat could handle things, it has worked out well. No time lost due to machine failure (actually no machine failure), updates and service work have been carried out promptly. They are committed to having M graders work well. Dealer will look us up after 3 years of use as the used market is looking for M's and ours will be one of the first used ones available. After doing a lot of snow work the past week I will offer a thought about the throttle on an M. Strange at first, but after a while you learn how that trigger functions, how to run the foot pedal and shift buttons. It is not much comparable to running an H or G, but the engine speed gets controlled and the driving gets done. I would hesitate to say I like it less or more, it is just a different way to operate, set up so the hand can stay on the joystick. When I get in the pickup sometimes I start thinking it is time to get my foot off that pedal and my mind tells my hand to squeeze something (which isn't there), odd how one can get conditioned. I still say it will be interesting to see how the discussions go a few years from now.
working the gremlins out: Hello sdPete, I would have to say... this is one of the finer posts on this thread... a very enjoyable read. Looks like you might have gotten some of that snow that blew through here last week.... OCR Note: My statements... by no means... are intended as criticism of other posts or posters...
CAT aint worried about the M Grader's ... They Lead the world so why would this bother them! Nice Video. The M grader Is far more Productive In theory than the old style lever/Steer wheel machine. You could perform 8 function's at once including steering without any effort while seated. Once they iron out the bug's and get decent jockey's the machine will work really well.
Good post Pete. Your comment about trying to drive your truck like you drive the grader is also a good point. I wonder if an operator would struggle with going back and forth between a joystick and a lever operated machine?? I've commented several times that a few years from now operators will have an entirely different discussion about computerized joystick style machines.
Grader videos Forum dosen't want me the last two days But i've been doing some other surfing... I have to promote the salesguy on graders at Volvo Norway. He has been making some videos for us. Here is some worth watching for all of you, not only promotion, but shows u a lot of pics on how we do things here: First the joysticks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5GyAe-meqw More technics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CMmVkwk34g Shows the latest design on joysticks for Sweden and Norway. Some graders he has sold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T-bJlixpoM Even more graders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y28BZtoUps A presentation of the 900 series from 2009.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GdTKRem6rc Here is their user on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/VolvoMaskinAS He has even got some pics of one of our graders.
Just some feedback.... We have five 14M graders. They are approaching the 2000 hrs mark and the operator's opinions are very mixed. Like some said, lot of small issues with the steering and hydraulic system and it's taking too long to get service or resolve from the Cat service Dept. Our list of outstanding issues/repairs is getting long and even a few visits from Cat engineers and tech reps didn't resolve anything. We're at the point where we almost have to park them if the temperature drops below -25 celsius......Not impressed so far.
Welcome to the website Alberta!!! Sorry to hear of your problems. Is it to the point that your Company is ready to give up on these machines?? Bummer!!!
Welcome to HEF Alberta! Looking forward to your posts.
controls All the manufacturers are going to these pilot controls. Some are just taking a while to master it.
the company i work for has a 140 m the operator has done 2000hrs in it.had a few problems like every one else nothing major steering alarm goes of ,fuel injector and rough gear shifting.cat has flashed the ecu with updates.and just got new paint job.the biggest complant the operator said there is no feel for what you are doing not like the h.i now have his 12h and i do 10 plus hour days in it and i don't feel stuffed a the end of the day.the operator said he loves the m for the quitness and comfort,great for bulk earthworks,grading haul roads but for crushed rock final trim he will take the old 12h with 13,000hr any day.
this is a very interesting thread, seem's there are many differing opinons on the joystick controls. I have ran a 12M and everthing except the steering seemed o.k. the steering was very odd and would i think be scary doing some high speed roading.
I hear that there are a few problems with the hydraulics too. One Highway Supt. said the 140M's were fine when they left the warm shop but started losing steering after a little while when it is real cold out. I have some pictures of one that went over a bridge when he was plowing snow.
has anyone heard about the operator, was he o.k. ( I have seen the pictures also )
I heard he was ok, but I'll bet he was sore! I like Deere's idea of having a steering wheel available for roading, but still has steering in the pilot controls too. These machines travel to fast when roading to steer with a joy stick. Imagine hitting a car on accident!
My buddy Steve has about 400 hrs on his 140M. He says he doesn't mind it roading now that he's used to it. But he always locks the controls so he doesn't accidently activate something other than steering. We are in Missouri so don't have severe cold temps either. I doubt he's ran in less than 10 degree F.
Glad your here Ironman, we need more grader operators giving their 2 cents on diffrent machines.Would you be able to post those pics of snowplow?
Richard I like the looks of that new G series.Seems like some very good improvements! Woops did I say that out loud!!! I sure wish Volvo will hurry up and put their sticks on the market.....:usa:canada roadrunner
I think electric over hydraulic controls are here to stay, not just on graders but other machine forms, especially those well-suited for automation. I do question the controllability of a motor grader, especially at high speeds with joystick only. I hear stories about M-series accidents related to the joystick steering but no one has ever confirmed them to be more than just rumors or competitive wishfull-thinking. Cat backed off joystick-only in certain loaders. I predict they will offer some form of steering wheel, if only as an option in the near future.
I think your right about the electric over hydraulic control are here to stay. With grade control becoming more and more popular it only make sense that eventually everyting will become plug and play. As far as Cat eventually getting a steering wheel they may have to do something. as far as accidents I have seen some pics of a 12M that had an accident I will try to get them and figure out how to post.
Wheeless Some government tenders around here specify that the machine must have a steering wheel!!!!!!
Transition I remember watching my grandpa steer a grader with horses years ago. Grader steering has evolved a long way since then or has it? I said on this forum once before and I’ll say it again, I believe the M Series system will become the standard of the industry! :soapbox All the major US grader manufactures eventually adopted the Caterpillar G Series controls. They all tried different ideas :badidea but all came around to using the dual bank/row of levers with the pull right push left pattern and the same schematics as the original G Series. I know you can order them all with different patterns, but the vast majority of machines being built are using the original G Series control setup. :usa We have three motor graders on our project (160H, 14H & 16M) right now. These graders are the work horse on these projects, we tow with them, we brake with them, we build iceroads & pads, we finish grade, we plow snow and anything else that needs done. I’m one of the Iceroad Foreman’s so I get my pick depending on what the task is. I switch back and forth on a daily and sometimes even an hourly basis. Our 16M does not have good snow tires YET so you better not get too far off the iceroad or you’re going to be stuck, but if I’ve got fresh snow or finger drifts to plow off the hard ice and I want to blow this stuff as far off as possible. The 16M is the first machine I request. The machine is an unbelievable powerhouse and I can blow snow nearly 40 ft off the road while plowing in 7th and 8th gear. The entire road is lined with reflective carsonite markers; I have passed thousands of these markers within inches in 8th gear and have yet to hit one due to lever steering. I road the machine back to camp every night and morning (sometimes 30 miles) in 8th gear on a road built entirely from ice. There are plenty of corners where we cross the rivers and go around lakes. I have studied my own hand movement while roading the machines and really don’t see that it’s all that different, I am constantly making tiny corrections in the H as well as the M. We have had plenty of steering alarms due to cold oil and the update rate of the steering computer, but have never lost steering control. These alarms are frustrating only because you have to power the machine down to reset the computer. :bash To keep this simple; you move the lever to steer, that command has been sent to the steering valve, the valve opens to send oil to the cylinders and allow oil to return, the oil in the cylinders has turned to a slug due to little steering activity (long straightaway) so it’s slow to respond at first, the computer is looking for an update from the position sensors in the cylinders showing that the command has been met, the update doesn’t come back, the computer turns on supplemental steering because that’s the way the software is setup for emergencies, the supplemental steering warning comes on (dash light & horn), the information screen starts flashing “Lose of Steering Control” all the while the machine is still working just fine. If they would change this update rate in the computer it would eliminate the majority of these false alarms. I was on a job back in the mid 70s operating a Galion T 500L when a new 14G was brought to the job. The old boy finishing with the 14E refused to run the G, stating,” You can’t finish with Hydraulics and the center of gravity is too high on that thing”. I’d only been running blades a short time then so really didn’t care one way or the other; mechanical vs. hydraulic, I’d run both. I fell in love with that G model and never wanted to go back to running that Galion. That old boy learned on mechanicals and that’s all he knew or wanted to know. I was working in Decatur Illinois for Caterpillar’s Motor Grader Division in 95 when the H first hit the streets so again I got to watch this transition first hand. I had to visit customer’s sites and was told “I want my G back”. We had to assure these customers we would fix the problems. It wasn’t easy, but we lived through it and H Series went on to become a great motor grader. There’s a lot more operators that love them than dislike them. The M Series is going through its teething problems right now, but it will become a great motor grader and the standard of the industry. :yup This debate reminds me a lot of the “John Deere Wobble Stick” vs. the Case backhoe control. Operators that learned on Cases love them and ones who learn on John Deere’s swear by them. All the young guns who have been on this 16M really like it; it’s the old G/H operators that still aren’t sure what to make of the M series.:beatsme For every accident claimed to be caused by lever steering I could show you ones where a steering wheel and an HMU valve was involved. Everyday I run the M I get a little better on it and a little more comfortable. If had to go cut hubs all day and finish in front of a paving crew I would definitely get on our 14H right now, I’m just not that good on our M yet. I can do some things really well with it, but not all. I am planning to use the 16M to finish a 5000 foot runway this summer so hopefully the next month or so I’ll finish my muscle memory training of this electro hydraulics while working on iceroads. :my2c All the best from the middle of nowhere….Randy
Randy, First and foremost, awesome write-up! I finally got to sit in a 14M at the Cat dealer in Pasco, WA 2 weeks ago. Nobody was around so I fired it up and played with the controlls a little bit. I would love the chance to put that thing in the dirt! I think its the way of the future. Mabey in another few years, the outfit I work for MIGHT rent one for a job, but Im not holding my breath! Jason
Words ? Hello Randy, So why does not Caterpillar FIX the problems ??? BEFORE they hit the marketplace ?? What is wrong with the developement /prototype training/proving grounds ?? They are Failing to do their job in my opinion ! I think they are passing the $ buck to the contractor to straighten out ! Just look in your O&M manual. The language they use is nuts ! Like, from total unfamiliar, dirt people. Page 63 of the Operation section, Machine Operation. This is for the 14M though. SEBU7883-07 "Launching the machine from the Neutral position " I know they launch Navy ships from the shipyard. Launch missiles from aircraft,launch rockets,etc. Launch aircraft for a/c carriers. What idiots wrote that ?? SEBU7883-07 "The M series motor graders use Control Throttle Shifting (CTS) to control downshiftgear requests . " Requests ?? Who wrote that ?? I select a gear by command ! There is more of that "request " language in there also. Yes, I heard about Caterpillar Language, for ease of translation into different languages. But I think they lost it here ! I'll take the old mechanical controlled engine and hydraulics any day,:usa over this computer crap that shuts the machine and job down, and nobody can fix it except Caterpillar !
Joysticks: I have to agree about the write-up... excellent abilities ... :thumbsup And , I have to agree on the content... I think you pretty well nailed it. I'm no stranger to joysticks (levers)... excavators, log skidders, Cat loaders, airplanes, helicopter... And, our JD 750c dozer. I just can't imagine a better or smoother method of steering control. I would cry, if I had to go back to pulling steering clutch handles or pushing pedals. OCR...
Great posts guys! I have to agree with Northart here.....So why does not Caterpillar FIX the problems ??? BEFORE they hit the marketplace ?? What is wrong with the developement /prototype training/proving grounds ?? They are Failing to do their job in my opinion ! I think they are passing the $ buck to the contractor to straighten out ! This couldn't be more true......Why don't they test these machines on the ice roads with Randy before delivery?Extreme cold temperatures will sort out any problems you will have with a machine no matter what! Letting the customers figure out the M's bugs just didn't start with it< the 160H I snowplowd with last year went through about 8 or 9 engine belts...it would take about 80 hours and the belt would shred every time.CAT didn't seem to care..... The air filter would plug solid with ice after 8 hours, we purchased a bunch more filters at our own expense because you know how long it takes to dry a wet one?CAT didn't seem to care.....and so on and so on!!! My point here is to the manufacturers, Please fully test your new advanced technology on your own dime not the consumer's.I sure hope I don't hear on HEF in about 10 years time that CAT is bragging they were the first to bring JOYSTICKS to the grader world. Please don't get me wrong I like CAT equipment just not their graders.(but the joystick with a back up steering wheel concept is defintely the way to go for the future!) roadrunner....
No Wheelie Great info Randy. I think it is beyond the scope of any company to test any piece of equipment in every possible enviroment and situation. In Caterpillars defence I think they will try and make it work no matter what. My father was a field service man for a Cat dealer here in Canada and I still like to read the old Service Reporter magazines that told about every modification they made to adapt machines to any and every application. Does anyone know the painful story of how Cat replaced every Challenger tractor main frame with a heavier design after tracks started slipping in some application that exceeded the machines capability. They did not just put in a heavier tensioner but also redid all the bearings, shafts, and components to make it work.:canada
Cold weather testing ? Hello Diagonal Brace, Arizona is the warmest ? place in the country . So Cats proving ground there , testing in hot weather , answers the , reliability for those temps. But the cold regions of North America are more than a niche marketplace. The need for testing in the cold climes is needed. Especially in this trend of electronic sensors,wiring,computers, etc. that would be considered delicate, not designed for rugged outdoor,temperature extremes. To find problems,flaws, in the field , on a new machine within the 1st 250 hrs, ????? that should of been discovered during the proving phase. What can I say !
Randy you are obviously a very intellegent and there is no question you know your Caterpillars however, I have to disagree with this joystick steering becoming an industry standard pattern. I have yet to meet an operator who was clamoring for a total control pattern change espically as drastic as this. Cat in my opinion did this for the same reason they do alot of things, get a patent and seperate themselves from the market once again. They are the masters of marketing and doing things of this nature. As far as things becoming industry standard because Cat does them, I can give you one example off the top of my head where was not the case, ( High Track Dozers ). Not a single manufacturer followed them on that one to my knowlege, and they seem to be backing off it as well with there newer units, at least the smaller to medium ones. There seems to be two steering problems at work here, one hydraulic ( which I belive they can fix and will fix ), and just the weirdness of steering something that big going that fast with a electric over hydraulic joystick. I have heard some refering to this being the same as crawlers with a joystick but, on a crawler the joystick returns to neutral after a steering input, it just doesnt seem the same to me, this steering setup is just plain weird . You guys try to keep in mind not everyone sad to say that runs a motor grader these days has the experince and knowlege you have.Around here if you work for the county you may be on a Garbage truck one day or a brush cutter, the next day you've been promoted to motor grader operator. One county in particular thiks it would be cheaper to trade brands than buying any more mailboxes. Every manufacturer misses things despite there best efforts, But in most cases it a seat base that breaks, or a muffler bracket, or a hose that rubs becuase of inproper routing, its not often they have the kind of saftey implications this one has. Bottom line I just don't think this kind of drastic change was called for by operators or nessesary to cope with the electronic grade contol. It will be five to ten years before anyone will know who is right on this one, but if anyone can pull it off its Caterpillar.
Good comments and discussion. As to R&D solving problems prior to sales, it ain't happening. No one does that anymore. In response to Northart's aggravation with the wording in the manual. When was the last time you "commanded" your computer to do anything?? "Request" is the appropriate word. To go a little deeper, it's the same with a lever, when you pull that lever you are requesting movement of a cylinder. To "command" you would have to go clear back to gear operated machines pre-hydraulic. And I certainly don't want to go there again. Concerning the North country, not taking away from the work everyone is doing up there, but you are a very, very small part of the market. No manufacturer is going to design a machine with the primary focus on operating in such cold temperatures. I think Cat has done very well to get to the point that Randy can do the things he does with the same machine that is capable of functioning in hot desert conditions. I'm with OCR, I'd be very sad if graders went back to the "good ole days".
The operator is ultimately in control. He ,makes the decisions as to what, when ,where, in the course of the job or work. The operator steps on the clutch or inching pedal, steps on the brake, the throttle, moves the levers. Those are engaging controls or commands. The technical service writers are incompetent, at least in this section of the book , redundant statements, inappropriate use of words. These people never passed 8th grade English. Where was the proof reader ? -20F temps are common throughout much of the USA, and the rest of the world above 45degres North Latitude. And it gets -40F elsewhere besides Alaska, lets not forget the Southern Hemisphere,also. For a new to machine to fail to operate in that temp,even at 0F, with not even 250 hrs. What can I say ! This home computer booklet says -40F to 120F is the operating temp range. There is many products tested to those ranges. The older technology is time tested reliable, durable, etc. Just ask King of Obsolete. For someone to suggest I am "aggravated " for reading an Operation and Maintenance Manual, yeah, that sure appears what they want to do , is aggravate or stir up the pot . Just like the newspaper "journalists" . Peddle controversy !
The operator indicates his/her wishes, the computer decides the action. In my world that makes the computer in control. That also makes the operators actions a request rather than a command. But that's a personal choice of words. I'm not a scientific studier of human population distribution. But I believe the vast majority of the human race lives in areas that never see -20F. That's all I was referring to in regards to the focus of development. Northart, I certainly didn't say you were aggravated for reading the manual. I simply referred to your aggravation at the use of the word "request". You can indicate your actually feelings about that word if that wasn't correct. I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. In the future I'll be sure to refrain from analysing anything you say.
If only the steering issue was the major one: Right from delivery time : · All fluids had to be flush out since they were shipped with summer oil (delivered in winter) · Observed hydraulic leaks at various locations : Found lot of loose fitting and hose clamps that were of the wrong sizes (bottomed out) · The first machine recieved (out of five),kept derating because of a “plugged filter” alarm (took over 6 months to resolve it). Finning’s service Dept replaced the one sensor but it didn’t resolve the issue. I requested that they replace the other sensor but it got ignored or refused. After a while the issue got passed on to the Finning tech advisor and the sent a new water/separator filter housing. When the tech came to replace it I asked that he replace the sensor first ( one came with the kit). It solve the issue. We didn’t have to change the housing. If this would have been done when I first requested it, It would have save that operator months of frustrations over stopping and restarting his machine a dozen times a day. · Loose bolts all over : Engine compartment side panels, top panels, fan shrouds, exhaust pipe and intake system, moldbaord cylinder yokes, cyl. pin keepers, side shift cyl. · Noisy cab fan (squeeling) · Circle gearbox leaks (o-ring)due to over sized groove First service: · Grey solid substance in the coolant….Still no answer as where its coming from. It’s bad enough that it plugs the coolant drain hose, valve and rad core. · Have to move the hydraulic tank to replace the return filter. Solution from Cat/Finning : Grind the side of the beam….. · Hose clamps loose on cooling and hydraulic returns. Replaced the standard air filter inlet with a cyclone ejector because of the amount of dirt getting in the air filters. Would have been nice to have the old style air restriction indicator on the air cleaner also. · Cab doors : Over $4,000 for broken door panes because of the flexing and poor alignment of the door hinges. Reported very early that the wiper covers were part of the issue. Was told to bend the cover brackets….not that easy to do. The door seals were also falling off…had to glue them in. · Front window wiper : totally useless in snowing conditions because the window is recessed in and the wiper can’t clear it. By mid morning only half the window is clear (snow build up on sides) · Poor hose routing/tying: Less than 750 hrs and already some hose failures due to rubbing (fuel lines, coolant) · Fuel tank gaskets are falling apart and plugging the fuel line. · Fan motor seals failing: New motor with case drain failing as well…Still no sign of the “artic” design..changing seal almost on a weekly basis. · Valve stacks seal failing in cold weather….updated seals failing as well. · Wiring issues starting to surface : wiring connector were over crimped, causing breaks in wiring, sensors failing · Harsh shifting: calibrations not helping much (4th to 5th and up) · Cold weather steering issues……excessive amount of level 3 alarms. · Secondary steering relay failures. · Lot of fluid lost due to leak and failures: Cost apparently not covered by warranty. · Draw bar lock pins not fully engaging : center bushing too tight · Hydraulic functions being locked out by articulation faults ???? · Windows frosting in cold weather. Added another cab fan to help circulate air around. · Fuel leaks at rubber hoses at bottom of fuel tanks during the first cold snap : Clamps had to be tightened twice already. · Early failure of hydraulic control valves and solenoids. · Majority of coolant samples results showing low nitrates level: adding CAT extender not helping.. Had to flush a couple of machine already and still showing that grey substance in the coolant. Now, I have a five bay shop and it looks like a Caterpillar dealership because it always filled with either a couple of 14M or 950G (yes, even the new loader is plagued with problems at 250 hrs). Hard to keep faith in that brand after the last year with the M series......
Bummer. A lot of these items would be considered poor quality control during assembly. Sounds like it's turning into a considerable maintenance cost on your organization.
Technical Service writers. The "new" technical service writers have not, the command of the English Language as it pertains to proper usage. The Construction vernacular or common usage of the English Language, as it pertains to Operating Engineers , has never included "Launch " or "Request" in the Operation and Maintenance Manuals. It is a foreign use, a mutilization, butchering ,etc of the usage. It is like,if I go into a lawyers office and say " I ain't got no, pencil,paper,etc" They would roll their eyes in abhorrence ! I would suggest that you read the Manual in reference, before commenting,OVRSZD. Operate the M series grader,for some time ,(more than 1 hr) and go work were it is cold, -20F to -40F and see for yourself. Instead of making hypothetical opinions. D8Bob constantly blathers about whatever, spewing misinformation, as many already know. Don't become another.
Wow. makes this 12G sound better and better all the time!
Alberta, that is a nasty list of problems you have there.Are you working for a county/ municipality with the M's? Please find a Volvo dealer.. there is one in Lloyd.(Redhead Equipment) and get them to bring out a new G series Volvo for you to demo.I know they will not hesitate to bring you one to try. I will guarantee you that you will trade all those Cat's for Volvo's! If you need a hand getting ahold of a sales rep. I will gladly help out!(and no I don't get commision on sales, I am just an experienced operator that has tried them all!!)
really don't know what happened to the quality control @ Caterpillar. you could see coming for a while. I rember being at an auction where there were about ten Cat graders lined up side by side about half were 12H's 140h's and the other half were 140G's. The 140G's looked like for the most part they had never had a wrench laid on them with almost every major component original. Hydraulic control valves never been touched( no leaks ), original starters and alternators and these unit's had 17,000 hours on them. The 140 h's leaked between the valve sections, leaked around the spool seals and the transmissions had been out of almost all of them. Now it seems it has gotten even worse.
I just found this forum after some Googling and wanting to see what our engines are used in.While your input and opinion were most probably taken, your not the end customer that we are developing for[0]. The 'customers' of heavy equipment are fleet owners and not the operators. A while ago (when the M was being developed) there was a shortage of trained operators. I started at Cat a few years ago and we had the opportunity in new employee training to run all of our stuff for 2-3 days. Over the few days I ran a D6, D8, 623G, 637G, 730, 935D, 770, 345 AND... a 14M and 14H. It was actually one of the very *first* M series to be made internally. (As in they still had the wheel because no one knew how to drive with the new controls, you could steer with both). Now we certainly didn't have enough time to become experts (I did manage to bury the 637 up to its front axle in hidden muck hole), but we had enough time to play in a pile of dirt. I grew up around computers and I took to the 14M controls quickly. There were a few missteps in there. I'd articulate when I wanted to turn or dip the blade when I wanted to turn, but more or less, within an hour I had almost all of the controls masted (but I know it wasn't close to what a 'good' operator could do). By the end of the time I could crab walk the 14M and even put the blade up on the vertical. The 14H was a disaster. I kept grabbing the wrong lever. I could only hold 2 levers at at time since I hadn't managed the manual dexterity to do it all. Not to mention the steering wheel was set all wrong to steer with my knees (as I can do so well in my car). As much as you hate to think about it, you're not going to live for ever. Your boss, or more likely your bosses replacement, wants a vehicle that they can train someone on in as short amount of time as possible. They want to be able to take any Joe off the street and put him behind the controls and have him trained in a week. The current generation grew up with joysticks and computers, so most of this will come almost naturally. (Think of the movie Toys ). Once upon a time there was skill involved. It took a while to train an operator. But now the push (from site managers) is to replace that skill with a computer (i.e. Accugrade) so that all the skill is removed. All the vehicle needs now is an average Joe to move it fore and aft. I've heard that some of the new dozers all the operator does is push F or R and run it at full throttle, the computer does all the work of grading. Eventually there may not even be a human behind the seat. Or one human to control a fleet of 10 dozers. You set the path on a computer screen and it follows it. It may seem like a large task now, but if you told the world 20 years ago computers would be flying air planes, no one would have believed you. (Pilots are used for landing and take off and maybe a quick Hudson landing). Some of the new fighter planes won't run without a computer. The air flow is so unstable it would be impossible for a human to control. The pilot 'requests' that the plane turn left and the computer calculates what it needs to do to get the plane to go left. And while to you a laptop as a repair tool may seem out of the ordinary, kids graduating high school this year have never known a world without the internet. Letters are sent in seconds and not minutes. Once they are in the field using a laptop won't be hard at all. As to "why don't they test it out before they send it out". We do, we just can't do it all. Look around this website to see where Cat products are sold. We have some custom applications for which may sell 3 vehicles a year. We try our best to test everything out that there is but there is no way (in physical time and space) to test everything[1]. Automotive companies don't. They release a 'new' model every year, but there is an old saying to never buy the first of a new platform and to always buy the last of an old one. They may design a new platform and try it out but they never knew that the new door handle is a weak point, after a few thousand cars and a few hundred broken door handles Revision 2 is released the next model year that has a fix. The same goes for Computer Hardware, never buy Revision 1. Winter only comes once a year in Peoria. We have once a year to get to try and test our cold weather stuff (and likewise the hot weather stuff) but sometimes stuff is missed. It gets caught in the field. And you praise the 14H for the reliability, you have to remember you're running a 14H Revision 10. Do you think the 1st year the 14H came out it was as reliable as it is today? [0]. You may ask yourself "why does Microsoft do this, I hate it". You have to come to realize you aren't Microsoft's customer. Microsoft's biggest customers are large corporations & the media industry. They couldn't care less how inconvenienced you are as long as the DRM is in place in Vista to protect the interests of the media. And it has to be backwards compatible enough to work with all the custom apps and installed base that they already own. [1]. There's an old story I heard from an old engineer: We got a call from one of our customers that was breaking rear axles on a wheel loader. They had recently redesigned the rear axle to be lighter and stronger so they were at a loss at why they would be breaking. So after their 4th or 5th new axle in a few months they sent an engineer down to determine why. The customer was working in very tight space and didn't have enough room to fully maneuver the vehicle. SOP for them was to take the wheel loader up to near full speed, lock up the brakes on dirt and turn it sideways and let it slam into the rock wall, they'd then proceed forward through the narrow opening and repeat. The stresses and strains were something that no one had ever modeled because no one ever expected to run it like that (or told them that they did.)
Language ? Hello Merbston23, Ah, so, now it becomes clear, that it is the computer geeks foisting this language upon us. "Requests" Yes you are of another world for sure using that language. I will always select, choose, command. As for Operator input on purchase selection, many operators do influence the choice, when it comes to purchase by the contractor. Contractors that already have a skilled work force with particular brand, size , model, etc machine don't want to spend additional lengthy training time, on the operators , mechanics, etc. As for the traditional lever bank style controls, I never seen that a problem in the field even with apprentices. I'll say one thing about Unions, we have an apprenticeship program that continually, trains new people into the industry, to meet the workforce supply, of skilled operators,needed. There is also a Journeyman upgrade, for cross training, in a particular skill where there is deemed to be a shortage of enough people. For the price of heavy equipment these days, in the $ 1/2 Million range. The lost production in the field , is different than $30 K autos being parked. Not only are the operators and Formens,frustrated and disgusted , but the Owners also, as it affects there pocketbook . FYI I started out in 1969 , 40 years ago , running heavy equipment. Seen a lot and done a lot. With the swift advances in the technology today, I'd say lot of this new stuff will be junk or obsolete before long. Just like the computers here at the desk. Meantime the old technology still keeps on running faithfully, and reliably. Yes the EPA is trying to kill our country too, from within. Unending stringent regulations, making manufacturing more difficult and less , worthwhile.
I think that's just a matter of semantics. "A rose by any other name..." (Of course, Shakespere could've said the same thing about an onion.) I am curious about how this will play out, and perhaps merbston23 could make an informed comment. How much parts support will the factory give to today's cutting edge technology as it becomes outdated? I think it was surfer joe that commented some time ago that in 50 years, we're likely to see more 100 year old equipment still in operable condition than we are 50 year old equipment.
Language Hello Digger242J, It is not a simple matter of semantics. In everday communications in the construction world, people use a common lingo, slang, usage to describe,demand, acquire, command, etc. How would it sound, your telling a apprentice, scraper hand, request 3rd gear and get outa here. Or at the morning briefing. Okay men launch your graders ! The operators up here, would laugh you right off the job for such talk. The old Cats , graders , scrapers ,etc, have a gear shift selector. What ya gonna call the new one ?? A gear requester ?? LOL The 14M shfting sequence, you could not feel the shifts. ONLY by looking at the digital readout did you know what gear you were in. Also, it might upshift or downshift when you don't want it to. Say you want, 5th reverse and you miss the counts on pushing the button, and hit 6, because there is a lag in engagement,( did I hit the button or not ?)LOL it will go to 6 whether you want it or not.: No wondering what gear you chose or selected, on the old consoles with the gear shift selector,and detents. I see nothing but confusion, bad enough when they change the entire operating system, now they want to redefine the accepted language usage. Do you remember the President saying under oath, what is the meaning of sex ! When a defendant lies in court it is called perjury ! When a lawyer lies in court it is called a misunderstanding ! I rest my case . LOL
Hi Merbston 23 I'm am well aware of the "growing pains" related to a new product. What desappointed me about the roll out of the M series was having some Caterpillar reps coming to our shop (we had just bought 5 x 14M) to assist in operator training and have them telling us about all the extensive testing that had been performed on these machines..... I know right now that the Cat engineers are working hard to resolve the cold related issues but I remember that back in July I was told that the fan seal upgrade was coming soon....still no sign of it (was told next week now). I just spent the last two days working on fan seals (third time this winter) and valve stacks that keeps blowing seals...again ! Was I expecting too much from a Cat machine ?
Well all this Philosophy crap a-side I couldn't disagree more with some of the post's. I think the problem lie's in old school Operator's that wont give up the ghost. The M's have issues but when they work they out perform any other Grader. I also disagree with the statement New will become obsolete or junk. Not in the Mining Industry that's for sure. Iam surprised allot of people are Hating on the M's .. We all know the Bias towards CAT on these board's. This has extended to the M crash thread where people are jumping straight on a machine fault and not the Jockey.
Life Span , Longevity ? Hello Haul Pak, Just look back in history a bit. See how the Dozer production stayed stable, till after the HI Sprockets came on, then the Alphabet just has about been depleted. We are up to the T series. The Graders in the G series all had over a 20 year production run, the H series graders had a 10 year run till, cut short for this M series. The longevity of the production run, speaks about the reliability, durability. There are different grader models also, that had short production runs. The Cat 350 Excavator had a short life. The Cat 375 has disappeared. The 5000 series of shovels and excavtors are gone,out of production. The other lines are just a blur in memory, wheel loaders and rubber tired backhoes. Many new numbers. Same with the number of New Mining trucks. So with the advances in technology coming on so strong, I expect this M series to be replaced by a N series ?? The short production runs do not make for a long lived piece of equipment. The Cat 966C loader is real popular and still working today, over 30 years later. Roughly 16,000 built in this country. A testimony to its technology and design. The surveyors equipment is changing rapidly also. New stuff, is obsolete in just a few years. Same with the integrated grader,dozer, excavator laser grade controls. I see Volvo has the joysticks, yet I never hear of any problems they are having in Northern Latitudes. So why is Caterpillar having such a tough time ?? :beatsme
Hello Northart: Some Valid point there I can see the M's staying around for some time. CAT normally change Letter's with Major Update's. Allot of example's to back this and a few that don't. D11 Tractor is a good example. CAT have jumped the Grader's from Mechanical to Electrical Control's. Analog ~ Digital l_l Digital Pulse Width Signal will be around for along time, This is computer talk, 01010101 ... 8 bit. Digital Control is the next 100 year's, Fiber optic's, ECM's etc all read the one's and Zero's. The only advancment's will be an ECM that can read 10 time's as much info using a 10th of the power .. I.E Home PC's becoming outdated .. Same technology as a new machine just Slower. How can the wife talk on phone while you surf the net?? Thanks to Digital .. DAM it .. another $120 phone bill !! Maybe CAT will Offer a Retro design with a Steering wheel and Electrical Joystick bank's? Maybe they should have taken this route before the full Joystick-Fly-by-wire design?? Problem Faced by CAT and other Major players: Back in the day they could build a Solid, Quality, Overbuilt machine, Overbuilt Linkage's and Simple Hydraulic's. Now Digital has taken over .. send 5 signal's down 3 wire's. The tree hugger's expect very little pollution from a 85 ltr engine ?? Maybe Iam being a Bit hypocritical as Ive only really had time on the 24M's.
Northart there is a reason why we don't have faults with theese systems. The Volvo guy's installed a system that has been tested and developed for controlling rotortilt/steelwrist systems on excavators.(has existed for years) Its basicaly a exc system times two. Another thing to think about is that i've got electrohydraulical stearing in our Volvo 6300 from 1989! So when speeking about Volvo, they have 20 years of expertice on this type of electronics. Bugs and problems is sorted out years ago. Last i have to say one thing: Please don't let your frustration take over completely! Merbston23 works at Cat, but i bet he cant solve all your problems! Lets instead enjoy the fact that he is with us, and treat him as a member not a representative for Cat. And welcome to the forum Merbston23!:drinkup I hope you will find this site enjoying and please be patient with some of our "frustrated old school members"
Merbston23: Welcome to The Heavy Equipment Forums. Good to have you with us.
Look through a parts book and everything you see has a name that's been given to it by the engineers that designed the machine. Names for a similar part may differ from one manufacturer to the next. I don't see this as any different. They simply picked different verbs for the control inputs you make with your hands and feet. It should only be a problem if you talk to your machine, and now the new one doesn't understand you. Do you talk to your machine? :cool2 (I know I do. ) .
Believe it it not, I don't have anything to do with MG, in fact I don't even know anyone that works on MG. Move to a 'small' town of 100k people and get to know every single person and what they do and we'll talk. Second Cat just had 25,000 layoffs. Including white collar. Everyone has plenty to do and 'those that scream the loudest' get fixed first. And screaming is just a $$s issue. If your the *only* customer with a fan seal problem, I hate to tell you but you'll never see a resolution. It's how business works. Biggest warranty problems get fixed first, then second, then third, etc Which I am, nothing I say or post in anyway represents Caterpillar or what Caterpillar has to say. I just get to play with some toys long before any of you will. Anyone else hear Tier IV coming? And there has been. I guarantee that 90% of the functions for 90% of the customers have been tested to death. No one ever makes a thread when everything is working perfectly.... Pulse width modulation is actually an analog signal. It's actually the best way to control an analog motor with a digital out. I don't know a single person in supply chain, but when I toured Morton I was told that we just recently stopped supporting parts for machines built in the 40s. I also thought that was part of the Cat advantage. Cat Logistics is so good that other companies hire them to do logistics for their company. I don't know what is going to happen but I can guess that we'd have a few pissed off customers if we just stopped supporting a platform. Industrial PCs are completely different than what you can go buy at Best Buy. Cat's ECMs run at a blistering 40 Mhz and have a massive 2MB of ram. http://www.cat.com/cda/files/658096/7/A4M1&A4M3.8.29.07.pdf 85L? That's... massive. If you don't like EPA regulations, e-mail or write a letter to your Congressman. We don't make the law, we just follow it. 1) Look at where Sweden is relationship to Peoria in latitude. 2) I'm sure you've heard about more problems with GM's cars than you have with say Porsches. Is it because they have better reliability or maybe it's just because there are 100x more on the road? Again, no one ever complains when everything is working.
You will retire and be replaced. All of whom will retire or move along. And when that day comes, contractors want the best machine to replace every single one of them and to do it as fast as humanly possible. They also want to do it as cheaply as possible. Unskilled labor is always cheaper than skilled.. Who knows maybe we'll see "Halo 6: The motorgrader wars" training new workers at home. Not getting into my personal opinions of unions.... ever think that maybe Contractors are trying to find ways to get rid of them? There are a lot of 'right to work' states out there. That's a design feature. It's only the old school folks that want to 'feel' the shifts. Reminds me of the Star Trek: TNG episode where Scotty is complaining that he used to be able to tell how fast they were going by how the deck plates shook. It's hard on the body, 8 hours a day of 'feeling' the shifts would annoy the heck out of me. I'd rather sit in my Lazy-Boy 8 hours a day than my lawn mower. Now if you made my lawn mower feel like my lazy boy, I will mow for 8 hours with no problem. I guess engineers were assuming too much when they thought operators could count.
That's why I'm asking. To me that's darn good, correction, phenominally good long term support. Does that translate into being able to get a computer part for an M series grader in 2069? Somehow I doubt it. I think that's what Northart is getting at as well, and it remains to be seen just how much that long term support of today's products will be compromised. LOL! Today's operators, can count. The operator of tomorrow? It's you pointing out that they might not even have to be that smart...
merbston23 I also welcome you to Heavy Equipment Forums!!:drinkup I'll preface my post by stating the only time I have in a grader of any type is as a kid, pulling levers and cranking the wheel making motor sounds in my throat. that being said, i have some comments directed at the technology debate that seems to be forming here. The way I see it, technology is here to stay and you have two choices, either adapt to it or spend the rest of your days bitching and moaning about it. Computers are everywhere and generally make our lives easier and more productive. We are able to do bigger jobs with smaller machines through computers. I've also wondered about how long one might be able to keep a machine running if the electronics were to fail outside of the production run. I have a feeling the free market will address this problem when it comes. Remanufactured computers are already available and I wouldn't be surprised to see a generic type computer to be introduced that can be specifically programmed to replace control modules in a variety of machines. If there's a market for it, someone will produce it. Any company that expects to be in business for any length of time has to be progressive. I've learned in my business that pricing seems to be finite, there is only a certain amount of money customers are willing to pay to get a specific job done. The only opportunity I have to make more money is to squeeze more production into a given amount of time, and technology helps me do that. I wasn't around to enjoy cable operated machines, but I'm curious if those of you who were would want to return to them over hydraulic machines? That's technology. Or how about diesel vs. steam? That's technology. Open cabs (or even no cab) vs. enclosed cabs with heat and A/C? As merbston23 mentioned, you can either work with it or have it make you obsolete.
Skilled workforce ? Hello Merbston23, Drafting street people, or the uneducated ?, cheap labor , into the workforce. That's where your losing it, they got to be trained to run $$$$$$$ EXPENSIVE equipment. The more sophisticated it gets the more training required. Cheap labor is what the anti union and big busines wants. They want to trod upon the worker for their profits. In the same token I have no respect for the Executives given Parachute Bonus's for corporate failure ! Same old class warfare. A skilled work force is much more productive than an unskilled work force. The price of heavy equipment keeps creeping up ,up, and up. This new technology has not brought the price down ! Pretty soon you will price your self out of the market place. Example the Air Force F-22 Raptor.(186) B2 Bomber(24). Hi tech modern marvels. Even Congress is balking about buying more F-22's. People still need jobs. The notion of robotic heavy equipment machines replacing ???? Another subject.:bash Ha, maybe us displaced construction workers can be trained , as bankers and mortgage brokers. LOL At least we have as sense of responsibility and morals ! Fatigue ? Physical conditioning ? I think most operators are physically fit. Not bothered by working long hrs.6/10's, 7/10's and longer steady, The entire season. Yes construction work is tough , demanding. No place for,weaklings, wuss's ! Just like the NFL Football teams, the military, etc,etc, only the best survive. Too much creature comfort leads to machine abuse, also. Yes, creeping age will eventually force me out, retire permanently, just like everyone else. But I've been a productive member of society. Constructing many civil projects, that will be here, long after I'm gone. Just remember , you too can be replaced. You have to build a reliable product, just like those, that came before you, that created the Legacy of Caterpillar. :usa
Very interesting discussion going on here. It's also very nice to see everyone is being civil. Hummm ..modern technology. I've operated many many graders over the years and the newer they were, the better I enjoyed operating them. Even the picture that I posted of the older John Deere grader that I operated for a couple of days...think I would trade that for a newer model? Bet your life I would. The newer the model the more comfortable/powerful/responsive they seem to be. Having said that I'm not sure where the enjoyment of modern technology would end for me. I've never tried a "M" series or any type of joystick controlled grader. I develop a "feel" for my machine very quickly, and this allows me to do my job with ease. I'm not sure if the same "feel" would be there with the joysticks and no steering wheel. That make sense to anyone? I would love to try one someday and see if I'm wrong. One thing I will add though..manufacturers are not going back to the days of old..its high tech..we either adapt or we stop operating..
Technology ? Hello Steve, Yes, I can't stop the progression of anything , taxes, war, computers ,etc. I certainly can add my voice to those steering events, though.Perhaps nudge it in a direction more palatable. The notion that I am too ingrained, to accept,change is nonsense. I've witnessed many changes over the years. The jist of my arguments is , the old sense of controlling by feel is gone. The sense of reliability is gone . And it is not me alone voicing these remarks. Merbston23; For a manufacturer , to disregard , complaints, dissatisfaction with their product, is just another reason for people, to switch brands or products. To belittle the influence an Operating Engineer, Master Mechanic, Foreman, Superintendant, the end users , has in influencing the purchase , shows a lack of knowledge of the industry. The owners certainly do listen to feedback ! Example, why are they putting coffee cup holders in the new equipment ?? LOL Ha, Fleet owners never get out in the field ??? :Banghead:bash LOL One thing I see though, is that this electronic controlling, can be easily modified or changed , to make it more user friendly ! After all, it is just wires, hooked to joysticks,knobs,toggle switches,rollers, whatever. Someone might even offer an aftermarket kit, of the traditional style controls. LOL Cab and all, complete , just switch ,plug in and go ! LOL , Just like the home computers , modified, with different software programs.
2069 is probably stretching it. Can you still get full parts support for stuff built in 1949? Now 2039? Probably. IBM still supports some of it's heavy iron from the 70s. With an emulator you can run DOS games, there's even an old ENIAC emulator. The Replacement ECMs you get in 2039 probably won't look like the A4, (just as retro parts aren't exactly like what the machine originally came with). But it'll run the vehicle.
Thanks for the informed reply. Now, hopefully we'll all be around to see whether you're right or not. Yep. And that will also make it easier to modify so that it can be controlled by the main computer back in the basement of company HQ, while the former operator works as a greeter at Walmart. :cool2
Displaced worker ? Hello Digger242j, Well if Pres Bush can ask for a job as a greeter at a Hardware store, I guess, I can also, LOL :drinkup But those jobs a limited , what about the rest ?? :bash Actually I 'd like to be a Banker or mortage writer in the new Bail out , Nationalization program. A secure job ?? LOL I could live with a $500,000 salary cap ! :usa The rest can play with the remote controlled toys.
Well I finally got around to reading this whole thread. Very very intresting and some good points of view from several sides. Personally I feel that the computer age is with us, had to shut the duck down a few times for a few minutes to reset the computer :Banghead. I said it is with us , not that I liked it
Agreed, but people can only fix one problem at a time and the "squeaky wheel gets the grease". Deere, Cat, Volvo, GM, Toyota, Chrysler, Ford all fix the 'big' problems before they fix the small ones. People take feedback, but if 90% of the complaints are about one problem, the people with the other 10% will eventually be fixed, but it'll be after the 90%. Yes, they have to be trained. But with simpler controls the time to train can be reduced. The current generation has grown up with Xboxes and Nintendos, the time to learn the muscle memory of a 14M over a 14H is probably much less. Ever think it's an American greed thing? Toyota's CEO only makes 900k. In fact the top 12 executives at Toyota collectively make ~$10M. GM's CEO alone made more. Toyota, Honda, BMW and Benz USA plants are all Non-Union. GM, Fords and Chrysler's all are not. Agreed. I never said it wasn't. With the 14M training time can be reduced because it is simpler to operate for people who have never used a heavy machine before. Say Congress decides to re-implement the WPA. Obama says we are going to build rail service to every major town in the USA. There are 2 companies bidding to do the job. This project is so large both companies anticipate that they will need 1,000 new operators. Company A has 14H, Company B has 14M. Time to train the people to be expert operators on the 14M will take half the amount of time as the H. Which company will get the bid and the project done first? Factor in inflation. When first released in the United States the Porsche 911 base model cost $35k. When the Model T was first released it cost $850. You can't pick up a good used car for $850. Somehow Porsche and Ford haven't priced themselves out of the market. Just like unemployment skyrocketed when typewriter repairmen, milkmen, and carriage drivers were put out of work. My dad used to make slides for a large company. His sole job was to make slides for presentations. Putting together a presentation could take weeks because he had to get everything just right. Power point made that position obsolete. But he still has a job, just doing something else. People used to spend years in college to learn to be an expert drafter, now engineers make their own parts with CAD. Exactly my point "Only the best survive". If a company with 14Ms can ensure that it has a lower turnover rate because of those creature comforts, they have a distinct advantage. If a company can hire only weaklings and wusses, they have a distinct advantage.
NO ONE should be on a motor grader if they've never been on a machine before
Amen to that.
Would you mind expanding on that a little. Only it seems a bit of a wide sweeping statement.
Yeah you got me on the PWS, Just an example by me.. It's used to control the FCV on the New C175. Cannot remember the Name of CAT's Older siginal system. 40 Mhz .. 50 Mhz etc .. It's still the same. 2mb of RAM? MB?? I am No Computer Tech or Electronic's Expert but I know the basic's. It all works on the same basic principal's ... Until they they Find Megatron in the ICE we are stuck with one's and zero's As for the EPA?? Ha Ha Ha Never bothered me how much pollution engine's pump out. 85ltr .. I was just saying how the 3500 is going because of the pollution.
A grader was the first machine I have ever run, excluding an old post hole digger. Sorry..don't agree with your thoughts...
PWM is used to control A LOT of things. Wiki Link. That's it. By comparison your home computer most likely has at least a 1000 Mhz processor and some come today with 2000MB of ram. 2MB is just a bit larger than a floppy disk. Got a source for that? I haven't seen anything in the news. I will go with Grader4Me on this one. I had only run a few skid steers before my training course. We spent a good portion of the beginning of the class on safety. (Including the awesome Shaking Hands with Danger series). And then we had no more than 5 minutes of instruction per machine. How to start it, basic implements and controls and we were set loose. The MG had to have been one of my Top 3 favorite vehicles. The D8 was fun just because it's a beast. The off highway trucks a bit boring because they don't do much. But hitting 40 MPH in one of those definitely gets your blood pumping. The best was getting it up to top speed, locking the brakes up and turning at the same time. I use the handbrake in my Jetta in the snow, but nothing compares to bringing the rear end of something that big around.
PWS is used for many a thing on the new CAT machine's .. Ive found this out working in the field and not from WiKi. The Info in the Wiki link dont mean much, Iam no Electronic's expert, I just plug my computer in and read the number's ... 40mhz or 1000mhz .. It's still the same. Again: 2Mb of RAM or 2G or RAM ... Still RAM. The Grader doent need 100MB of RAM. Same with ROM or PROM, Only need's enough to store Parameter's. Unless you plan on playing world of war craft while grading then you only need what's required. Regarding the 3500 Phase out! Na I didnt get that Info off the interent, That's just the word that's going around .. They are replacing the 3500 unit's with the ACERT powerplant's .. (Well that was the plan)
Reply to Thread: I'm going to... cause it's a good one. And for my first reply... I will quote ovrszd, because he agreed with me... :thumbsup... I think that would be fitting and proper... ... That's all from me for now, ... but please keep this thread alive and well. It contains some of the best dialog and discussion... from all the posting members... that I've read on this forum for awhile. It's all very pertinent to the general industry as a whole... good job. OCR...
Graders are never going to go back to the good old days ( thank goodness ). Emissions are driving a good majority of this stuff. When you have the ability with these new fuel systems it take to meet emissions, to tell the transmission what kind of load the engine has on it, so it can adjust the shift accordingly, so your not slipping a clutch pack, by engaging it too slowly, or too fast, wringing the operators neck, it make sense to take advantage of it. If you can reduce the numer of wires or number of relays on a switch panel by some 90% using solid state technoligy and give the technician a way to diagnose all these components from the monitor, Check pressures without ever installing a guage, check injectors without ever pulling out a wrench, Im not sure many technicians would want to go back. The problem is sometimes they dont get it right in the design, sometimes they go with the wrong supplier, ( suppliers can kill you ) I dont think it is the technology that is bad. If Cars went back to the good old days we would be tuning them up every 25- 30 thousand miles, I personally dont want to go back to there. I can see why some would want to go back a few years because the brands they like or run there best days probably were behind them but for the brand I make my living off of I believe they are definitly making the best equipment they have ever made.
In the future Mades a person wonder...just how far this high tech stuff is going to take us. Jump on your machine, program the on board computer, lay back and let it go to work. We are darn near there now with GPS, Laser etc. The old eyeball and seat of your pants expertise is slowly or should I say quickly fading away. The old way of operating a grader is that you had to think about what you was doing. You had to have a picture in your mind as to what your finished product is going to look like. You made it happen because of your skills. In the not to distant future you won't need any of these skills. If you can steer a grader, then you're all set. Everything else will be done for you. Eventually more remote control graders..operator won't even have to be in the machine Probably the operators of the future will be looking back in history and saying something like this "Could you just imagine having to manually operate one of those things?? Must have been hellish!)
Grader4Me, I agree with you. But, this technology has been slowly coming for years. A company I worked for 20years ago had a CMI grader that ran off of a stringline in the same way that curb machines today, and the CMI roadway pavers did in the past. All the operator had to do was steer. Everyone thought that would be the death of the grader operator, "any moron can keep it between the string". And this grader was an early 70's or late 60's model if I remember correctly. Hell, my operators felt fancy with the sonics we had on our 14G's. Made fine grading the shoulders after PCC pavement placement a breeze. You could lock both blade controls on auto, and just keep the moldboard along the edge of the pcc pavement. Although I did have one operator who would just read the slope percentage readout and adjust the controls himself, said it keep him feeling like he was actually doing the grading himself, instead of letting the "box" do the work. Now GPS has become the norm, and though I have yet to run a GPS machine, I am told that you insert the disk in the morning, eject it at night, and other than that you just have to steer, and on some not even that other than to get the machine to the work area. I love graders, have run a 1949 14 up to the H's. I rarely get the chance to get on a machine anymore, too much paperwork to do and time spent driving from job to job. But I guess I'm old fashioned. I would crawl back in the 12E with a ripper I ran ALMOST as fast as I would the 12G. I understand the newer models have more creature comforts, and I can understand why. But, I think the operator should have some feel of what he is doing, ie lever feed back, the knowledge that its hot out and hasnt rained in days, so the material hes working will react differently as he moves it. Hell, my father's going to be 80 this year, still running his own 12G, and has a pretty strong belief that the stages of the moon effect the workability of dirt, sometimes the same material moves easier, flows better off the moldboard, and nits together better. And I agree with him. I would find it hard to believe that the "quicker trained" operators would be able to fathom or notice the differences. They are just following the image on the screen.
Great post Engineer4255, and thanks for the bit of history. Lol..Your Dad is a smart man! These types of operators will never have their boots filled...
The MooN ? Hello Merbston23, The moon definetly affect crops and animal husbandry ! Planting potatos by the moon, is in the Farmers Almanac. Back to ........ Risk analysis factor , putting semi developed products on the marketplace, to beat the competition , is not unheard of. The 14% failure rate in home mortgages , has been exceeded and lead to the delinquency of foreclosures ! And its chaos in the market. So now ?? manufacturing is following suit , betting ( Gambling ) it can beat the problems , for dominance ! LOL History will tell !
I think the point might be that Joysticks are more readily adapted to by new comers...they still have to learn all the tricks of the trade, thats never going to change. If they can pick up the basic controls quicker than a bunch of levers then thats great. It doesn't necassarily mean they will know what to do with them and when to do it. Case in point is my nephew who has been operating my mini-ex and Cat skid steer for 2 years now. At the start I put him in the skid. He was shifting dirt around with ease (joysticks) within minutes.....two years later now and I still think he has a lot to learn but the point is he learned to do the basics in about the quarter of the time it took me to learn 4 sticks and Yankem sticks with foot controls etc. Joysticks don't a good operator make......but they can be hell easier to use. Hey Northart, give a man a break...I'm not sure where Merbston said he was the director of product Development at Cat!.
Exactly what I've been saying since the beginning. Usually I 'read aloud' in my head. I can't help but think that you are none other than William Shatner. Ssshhhh. Don't let it get out, I'm Mr. Owens.
Slow Response; High Winds crashed our disc. A wealth of good information and many great points made. In regards to my own comments I believe G Model summed it up best, it’ll be 5-10 years before the jury comes back on this one. In regards to the HiDrive; Caterpillar let the patent lapse just a short time ago, it was protected and still is under another patent involving the transmission if memory serves me right. We can discuss in another thread. Richard/Ovrsd is also correct, these machines are mass produced and the market is THE major factor in how they’re designed and manufactured. If all I did was finish crushed rock for a paving crew with our 160H; I could get away with 2 gears, a 4 cylinder engine and a set of blade beams that were 10mm thick. I personally know contractors who use their graders for just that; finishing crushed rock and nothing else. They don’t believe in roading motor graders, they load it on a lowboy and haul it. Then on the other hand there’s our 160H & 14H. Neither machine had ever seen one ounce of dirt until we bought them. Both were governmental snow removal machines and were on guaranteed buy back programs. There was still some paint on the front of the moldboard of our 14H and it had close to 5000 hrs on it when we bought it. We removed the snow equipment (wing & nose plow) and installed a ripper, push block, 16 ft moldboard, Huber reversible fan, automatic blade control, warm air/cold air intake system, alcohol sniffers, multi-piece out board rims and wide base tires, quilted covers, additional lights, synthetic oils etc. etc.. We set the machines up for the market that we work in. There is ABSULUTELY no way that a manufacture can mass produce a motor grader, which fits in to all markets PERFECTLY. One of the points being; cold weather is still some what of a niche market and I can guarantee that the majority of the machines never see conditions like we operate in up here in Alaska. I ran into this constantly when I was working at Caterpillar on the H Series, one week we were in the Andes Mts. in Peru at 14,500 ft elevation dealing with low power complaints and trying to explain to a customer that you just can’t keep injecting more fuel into an engine when there’s not enough oxygen available at these elevations. Yeah we can solve the problems with series turbo charging, different Mani folding, a larger ATTAAC system, plus hood and cowling modifications to keep it all covered. They wanted to know why it wasn’t built that way in the first place. So we had to explain that it’s not required when these machines are running at lower elevation and all these additions are going to increase costs and the size of the rear engine enclosure, which will block visibility to the rear of the machine. One week later we’re dealing with an angry customer in Florida over accelerated circle & side shift wear strip material. The machine was running in beach sand right at sea level. Low power was the last thing on this guys mind. Every customer thinks they’re the only one who knows when, where and how to properly use a motor grader and they’re all right. I met the best “Blade Operator” in the world several times. Roadrunners right on the money also, this certainly didn’t just start with the M Series. I personally saw and dealt with list similar to what Alberta posted when I worked on the H Series. I was on that Galion back in the 70s because my Grandfather was upset with Caterpillar from back in the 60s. This Dell computer that I’m typing on right now has had its moments; they sure didn’t finish all the field follow work on it, but I still think it’s amazing. When I was at Caterpillar I was constantly reading about problems that the other manufactures were having with their motor graders and trust me, there was plenty of reading material available on this subject. I would agree with Art also on some things, but not on others. Yeah maybe they could have done more testing and field follow work, but here’s the other side of this story. You are never going to learn everything you need to know buy continually testing at the proving grounds, you have got to have a field follow program where the customers will put the machine through it’s paces. It’s no different in the construction industry and you said it yourself, the time comes when the grader has to get out of the way and you’ve got to start laying asphalt. Was the grade perfect? Did it really meet the specs listed in the Bluebook? Could it have been better? You bet it could have, but someone made the tough decision and next phase of the project got started. During the H Series they had over 20 units spread out all over North America. Sometimes it’s very difficult to find a good field follow customer who will go the extra mile to give you good accurate reporting. To often the operators just want to park it at the end of shift and go home. Simply saying, “it’s a piece of @#!$ or calling someone’s baby ugly just doesn’t get it. Many people don’t realize how much work goes into a good Field follow program. I had the first 14H Tier II Field follow machine here in Alaska for one year. After spending nearly three years living in Decatur and at the Proving Grounds, helping with the development I then returned to Alaska. I plowed snow with it all winter, did gravel road maintenance with it in the spring, and then used it to finish on several construction projects here in Alaska throughout the summer and fall. Caterpillar paid to ship the machine all the way up here, they insured it, they paid N.C. Machinery to do all the major mechanic work on it, they had engineers fly up here and visit me on a regular basis (about every 2 weeks), I sent over 100 reports and over 200 emails went back and forth between Decatur and Myself during this period. It was a lot of additional work after I was done operating it all day and sometimes all night. I was glad when it was over. They shipped it back to Decatur where it was torn down and analyzed. It had problems over that 1 year period and a lot people worked really hard to solve the problems and make it into a great machine before that design went into production. Twice during the year the machine went back to N.C. and went through a major tear down to study some problems we were having. All new wiring harnesses were installed twice with some different routing to eliminate problems, all new ATAAC and cooling system installed twice to check different designs, all new hydraulic lines installed from front to back entire differential internals and tandems had to be removed to inspect weldments inside the doghouse/frame case, engine & trans had be removed for wiring and frame inspection work. Every part that came off that machine was shipped back to Decatur to be analyzed. Many times the work was done at night so that the machine was available to go in the morning and I could keep finishing in front of the pavers. Even after all that, there was still updates they had to make. Was it because I made a mistake? Did I not beat the machine hard enough? In regards to Alberta’s problems, I couldn’t agree more, that’s unacceptable and costing him. We just aren’t seeing as many problems, but then again we don’t have as many M’s as he has. If that was my situation I’ll probably drive them all down to the dealer’s lot, block the driveways, set off the steering alarms, pop the little clips off the door linkage rods and walk away. Teddy Roosevelt once said that it was better to try and win glorious triumphs even though you may be checkered by failure and fait than it was to rank with those poor spirits who know neither victory nor defeat because they are afraid to try anything. :usa Great discussion Gentlemen…Randy
Grader Joysticks V Lever Control: Great post Randy... :thumbsup OCR...
You made lot of good points Randy... we are kind of Beta testers for these machines. We do field follow ups and report data/observations regularly, now. The frustrating part for me was at the very beginning. We reported lot of issues and possible solutions to the local dealer and wasn't getting much support until we got a hold of the western Canada Cat rep. He got the Finning and Cat Tech advisor to communicate with us and most of our issues are on the agenda now and some of our solutions are being implemented. But it took about 8 months before they started to listen to our issues. Two of our machines have been modified by a Cat factory engineer to try to solve the steering issue in cold weather and one other machine is running a different hydraulic oil. We have a meeting schedule this month between municipalities and Cat/Finning reps, to try to address some of our concerns. The other point Randy made about the operators stands true : The poor guys are a little discouraged and frustrated because of the initial problems and it getting hard to get their buy in when we try modifications or ask them to try to change their operating techniques....After all they are the people sitting in there for 10 to 14 hrs listening to the dreaded level 3 buzzer and having to stop/restart a couple of dozen times a day. But I know things will get better.
Testing ? Hello Randy, I'll say it again and again, the Proving Grounds FAILED to identify the problems ! That is supposed to be their JOB ! Not the marketplace ! When problems surface with less than 250 hrs , on a new machine, something is wrong with the process, of introduction ! I had a brand new D8T , turned out had a software program fault . Should of absolutely been identified in the proving gounds testing . I found it in less than 40 hrs of operation . The idea that the climate in Peoria is it , for test purpose , phooey ! Why not ship the grader or components to Fort Greely , in Alaska for COLD WEATHER Testing ?? The Military does ! I've seen videos and DVD's of the Climate controlled labratories , what is wrong with them in finding the operational parameters ? Thanks for your input of the other side of the coin ! :usa Squizzy246B, I know Merbston23, is fully capable of defending himself, as he interjected himself, into the conversation. He is of another generation, degreed, but inexpierenced, in some matters. But at least willing to challenge . Probe, define assumptions, satisfy curiosity ! ! LOL :usa
See, here's the thing Mr. Northart......the fact that you recognize that merbston23 can defend himself would also suggest that you recognize he is under attack, why else would one need to defend themselves??? I'm sure you're well aware we don't allow attacks here at HEF. Any company that does not constantly upgrade or improve their product runs the risk that their competition will. Caterpillar undoubtedly took on a big challenge with this machine but when the bugs are worked out, I'll bet it will be a machine the rest of the manufacturer's will pattern after. I'm just curious Northart, when will you be manufacturing your version? Mad cow! Mad cow!
I have been more or less involved in military testing for the last 10 years. I can assure you that the degree of testing is variable between the different produsers. Many is so pressed on the competition they cant take the time needed to test their products enough before series production. Then much of the testing is also done as computer simulations... If your competitor is launching a new modell that is far bether than your present, you got to have a new one equal before your customers is planning to change their old modell. The M's was a year delied before customers got them over here, customers was checking out other brands delivery time. If the M was 3-6 months further delied, customers would have cancelled their contracts. This puts a tremendous press on the test and verification departement. Adds and comercial programs makes it even harder to delay the start of the serial production. Adds about a "total" redesign of the product, should make all of us suspitious... the more you change on the product, the bigger is the risk for problems. Small changes is easier to handle and test enough before production. Regarding military, its a total different situation. We put challenging demands to the products inside our contracts. Bet that all of them is testable... And you are in big trouble if you promise stuff you cant hold. Contracts is waterproof and many has found it out the hard way. Its sad that you owners/firms dont have such contracts with the produsers. It would have made the day much bether for most of us. Cold/hot testing is a peace of cake, just put the stuff inside the chamber and run it for a day or two. When temp in your fuel and oil is as spec'd, just get in your cold climate dress and fire it up. Test all the functions under observation and make a report. Then its ready for the fieldtesting.... But remember that we pay for it too. Mil spec equipment is not cheep.
Ever look at the Military's budget? If you want to pay for it, I'm sure we can test in Antarctica. Heck, if you pay for it we'll test it on Mars. And they exist. And they're sometimes in use 24/7. But look at the number of products we make: http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37840&x=7 . Sometimes it comes down to time. Time to get out in market before competitors, time to get something released so people can move on to the next project. And the same way that it works with every company, with every project, with everything, it's a numbers game. Not that your opinion or experience don't count or that we're intentionally ignoring you. Say Toyota expects to sell 100,000 Camrys in 2009. 95% are going to be in the continental US. 2.5% are going to be in Hawaii 2.5% are going to be in Alaska. They're going to put their money and resources making sure that those 95% are working perfectly from day one and then work on resolving any special issues the other 5% have. Heck prior to 2007 it's what VW did with their TDI engines. California and other CARB states came out with their genius "all diesels suck." So VW just said "Screw you guys, we're gonig home" and sold to the other 45 states. We joke around here about doing the same thing. I think if collectively every company that ran Diesel engines just said, "Sorry CA, no can do." Dropped off packages at the border of NV. Ran all the stuff from China through Juarez. Someone in CA would take a bit of notice. - To the topic at hand. Some people still swear by stick shifts. Automatics just couldn't cut it in fuel economy and durability. New Dual Clutch Manumatics have all but eliminated the fuel economy gap. Old timers swore up and down that Automatics would lead to the demise of driving. (Which is debatable). I swore up and down I'd never get a car with power steering because I couldn't "feel" the road like I could with my old rack and pinion. I now drive a car with power steering... This is progress and it's here to stay. Again. This is Revision 1.0, The 14Hs are on revision 10.0. I'm sure the OLD timers remember 14H 1.0 and I'm sure some have stories on how horrible all those fancy new features are. Give it 5 years and lets compare.
Debate ? Hello Steve, Perhaps I should of used different words. Left out "himself" and used "his argument" . Certainly would of sounded better. I had no intention of making it sound like a personal attack . Sorry if it sounded that way. Far as equipment modifications and feedback , I certainly have given that, to the Contractor, Dealer,etc.,and Randy even has forwarded my critiques back to Peoria, to the Motor Grader Engineers . The interesting thing about construction, is the many people from elsewhere, that you meet on the job. Total strangers, yet experienced, seasoned, journeymen, Foremen,Superintendents, Project Engineers. Their impressions, contact was elsewhere, of the M series graders, mirrors mine also. What can I say . One thing I don't do, is give a dishonest evaluation of something. Why sugarcoat problems ? Politicians are good at putting the spin on whatever ...... Hello Merbston, Well your certainly making you case. Its a perspective that us end users never see out in the field. Its a information gap not found in any media. Except here. I appreciate your input here, and hope you found something relevant in my comments also.
Operator Posture ? Okay, now we have to deal with Operator Posture. Every other machine has the arm rest level, or nearly so. Note the radical position here. The clarity of the scan is the best I can make it.
That "Correct Position" picture in the lower left looks like his arms are being supported. So... what's the problem?
Looking at the pictures a thought came to be...I'm trying to think of a word that would best describe the difference between the guy sitting there with the joysticks compared to the levers...without the levers he just looks... lonesome
I would like to know your opinon's on why you think that Catrerpillar made this change, when even there own research said it would alienate a good portion there customers. Why would they offer a machine like this that was so radically diffrent with no other option. Motorgrader yes you can have it any way you want it, provided you want it with joysticks. I have my thoughts and I would like to know some of yours. Scott
Simplicity. Repetitive Stress Injury (Look at the youtube video). Packaging. Before you HAD to have the valves below the levers. Now you can shove them away somewhere and control them remotely. Disconnect of the controls from the machine. Right now the entire vehicle is controlled with wires that are 10' long. Next step could be 'wires' 100' long. Then wireless. Then the computer is doing it. When Delphi first introduced cruise control no one wanted. No one could see the point, so no one ever paid more for it. Some genius marketing guy decided to give a week long trip to Vegas for the dealer in the country that sold the most cars with Cruise Control. First year was pretty pathetic. Some large dealer sold 10 cars. True to their word Delphi took the dealer to Vegas and showed them the time of their life. Dealers talk so the next year everyone was competing. Repeat for 5-6 years. Suddenly new drivers who don't have any prejudices against it are getting Cruise Control... and they like it. Some people still hate it, but the momentum picks up. After a while Delphi just dropped the Vegas trip, and the rest is history. Cat's not doing anything similar, but people are going to pick up the profession that have no clue how to use either system. If the joysticks are easier to use, they're going to like it. I mean who wouldn't love to sit on the front porch and use a remote control to mow rather than go out there and mow?
Before we got off this topic........... I still have not really heard a clear answer from anyone about Cat going to need back up steering(a steering wheel) for roading at high speeds?Or should I say SPEED GRADING!!!!!Tee Hee I just don't think... no actually I no that it is not possible to Snowplow at 50 kph with those joysticks only! Please prove me wrong somebody, that has plowed with the M at that speed.If you have prove it to us and take a video with your third hand.. Great discussion boys and maybe girls! roadrunner:canada
I bet this guy could do it after some practice. And rumor has it the guys in my attachment run joysticks. Although it may need some 'desensitizing' to do so. The best part about Drive By Wire is you can have different turn ratios for different speeds. I heard Mercedes and other car companies are experimenting with this. So at 10 MPH turning the wheel 90 degrees may be what it takes to go side to side, but at 90 MPH you need to turn the wheel 180 degrees to get a slight bit of change.
Yes I know Cat says it 's joysticks are speed sensitive but that doesn't mean ---- to me when you are controlling a One-way,Moldboard,Wing, and oh let's say steering as well! Everyone that has plowed snow over 30 kph with a wing will tell you that if it digs in or hits a hard approach you are sideways or in the ditch before you can blink!So you have to have steering that is not speed sensitive when you need to react in an instant! ointhead Merbson are you sure that isn't photoshopped?LOL Now leave me alone I have to go dig out my Nintendo with the dust on it!!!!:drinkup
Don't need three hands! I shot this last week while plowing from Franklin Bluffs to W2 Pad (30 miles). Yeah; I admit it's a little blurry, but the requested gear reads 8th F, the actual gear reads 8th F , the speed reads 30 mph and the tach clearly shows 2000 RPM. 1 MPH = 1.6 KPH..... darn I missed it by 2 mph!!!!! It's difficult to even see the road, but I can see the reflective markers through the blowing snow. I've spent some time on Champions and tried out a Volvo or two and I've yet to find one that can kick up the wake of snow this 16M does at 30mph/48kph pushing an 18 foot moldboard. There is NO way you can spin your steering wheel as fast as I can move this joystick sideways; NO WAY All the best....Randy
Randy where is your wing and one-way? Did it fall off? Maybe you should compare a 160 M to a G970 with the same snow equipment and then tell me if you hit 48 kph.What you are doing on the ice doesn't mean anything about what I was talking about! Your 16m sure will kick up the wake of snow won't it.....(RIGHT IN YOUR WINDSHIELD.....HAHAHAHA! ointhead) Trust me you are not traveling 30 mph with that much snow constantly in you face all day long! Oh and one more thing what are all those Red Warning Lights on for in the picture?
opcorn
ok, now here is probably the stupid question of the day. Randy, or anyone else, do the entry doors on the cab still lock back in the open position as the older models did? Of all the pictures I have seen of the M I have yet to see one open in this manner. Just wondering.
Yes they do....
Doors locked open Here's a picture for you ,of a door locked open. Nice sunny view, but at the same time all the dust,dirt, wind, rain, comes in on you instantly. No side windows open .
Thanks. I can see now how the shape of the new cab doesnt deflect anything away from the operator. :usa
Roadrunner; I Misunderstood Your Question The lights on the dash are the lights built into the rocker switchs, the right one is the parking brake & the left is the supplimental steering. I thought you had been in one. All the warning and indicator lights are above the gauges and for once none were lit up. Again my mistake, I must have been reading someone elses posting a while back. My apology again, I must have misread your post...duh Again, please except my apology, but I just don't recall ever working with you. My memory just isn't what it use to be. I guess it was all a dream or maybe one of those ....what do they call them??? Photoshop job. Yeah that's it... Darn! All the Best....Randy
You still haven't said "SORRY" yet Randy! No need to apologize, I know I could learn a thing from you also! All the best.....roadrunner:drinkup
Sorry OK, there I said it....and I'm sure You could probably could teach me some things I don't know. That's what I truely Love about this machine and it's evolution, it just keeps changing and getting better (in my opinion). Stay Safe and all the Best....Randy We...... will keep mixing the hard stuff with the soft and making it in to something that we can all make usefull using a machine I truely believe is the definition of our lifes.
stick or wheel The speeds in snow here don't match up to Randy running near WOT in 8th, but the 140M here will steer a heckuva lot faster with one flick of the left wrist than a wheel machine with a thumb in the spoke. Been there done that. If you oversteer the stick allows correction quickly, a wheel machine takes a lot of cranking.
No doubts about it, the joystick is a lot quicker but our problem is that at anything below -20 Celsius, you barely look at the steering joystick and get a level 3 alarm (cannot steer). So reaction time and efficiency of joystick system don't mean ---- when you constantly have to stop to reset alarms.....
alarms Your frustration is loud and clear here and I would be upset myself if I had to deal with that. So what's the difference, is the machine here a lucky M? We ran a few nights at -25F with no problems. On a cold start the machine will produce an alarm on startup after which a light on the dash stays red until the steering oil warms above 39F. The machine is operable in gears 1 and 2 with cold oil, the alarm will sound if the steering oil is below 39 (on the cornerpost display) and gear 3 is selected, goes off when shifted back to 2. Diagnosis of steering issues at -20C is not going to be a yippee call for the mechanic. Cat has gotten quite a selection of equipment to be functional in cold conditions so I would think yours has to be capable. Hope you can find help...
Not to get too far off the subject But great pictures Randy! As someone that lives in florida where it probably will be 74 F today I would like to try out some of you weather for a day or so. Scott
Cat has had their share of problems with the M series. I was talking to a County Operator that has had a 160M since last Sept., he said that he was getting used to it, but still would rather have the steering wheel. He said if you hit a bump while traveling, it is real easy to bump the lever so that it makes you swerve. Then after that I ran across this video that I think could have been caused by hitting a bump at the edge of the bridge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBytzi0YbPw&feature=channel_page I would like to find out more about it.
That's not a video. That is a slide show. And no pictures we haven't already seen in this thread. . There's plenty of debate on what caused it, but it looks more like the operator caught the blade and flipped and not just 'drove off' the edge.
Nah. Here's a picture of the cockpit.
Hummmm..looks easy enough.....
:lmao:lmao
It looks a lot like a grader to me...
When I first started reading this thread,it reminded me of "way back when". ...yup,the old knuckle buster motorgraders and how my grandfather said "them new hyd. controls would never catch on cause they had no feel to them". Interesting.
Cat was the last one to go hydraulic. They said hydraulic cylinders would bleed off and not hold position like mechanical controls. The "F" series was hydraulic over mechanical, their attempt to eliminate knuckle busting but keep mechanical "precision". Of course the "G" series was their surrender to hydraulics. The addition of lock valves supposedly kept their hydraulics from "drifting" like competition. 39 years later they still talk up their lock valves.
good points
Grader Joysticks V Lever Control: Well, if I'm not mistaken... and I'm not... :lmao You steer that one with your feet... :cool2 LOL OCR...
I have just read this entire thread, interesting...as some of you know I just came back from a season in Antartica, and trust me any dozer newer than the H serries should not be allowed on the continent, with that said I like opperating the R serries machines. Their is 2 late model drive by wire D-8R's their and they always have some issue It does not always involve a mechinical issue either, they have a entire host of issues. I belive alot of them stems from operator misuse and abuse, some of them aer from the "Monderisation" for example plastic trim on the doors that is self distructing. The most reliable machines on the entire continent is the D-6D manual shift machines, a few have been compleatly rebuilt for this purpose, no one wants to run them (with the exception of odd people like me who like the old iron) though, they are abused rather regulary, and still keep ticking. The 8-R's are always broke and yet people fight over them... People may cus the new teconoligy, but eventualy it is embrased, because it is more comfortable for them to operate, it just take a bit of learning. People are like dogs, not every one learns a new trick. As far as joystick stearing and drive by wire stearing, it has been around for 40+ years their has been alot skiders built with a hydrlic valve ie. a cat 518, or a Wabco scraper, with electrical contacts that open the valves to steer the machine, some of you may have heard about the odd scraper that would just swing and want to run off of the top of the stockpile? the point is some things work well and others do not, I do not know of a current production log skider built that has a traditional steering system in one (like the H serries graders) they all have a simple valve in them, some are hooked direct, ie linkage, and others have gone to drive by wire, and trust me roading a grader with a joystick at 30 mph is a pleasure compaired to some of the areas the log skidders work in. I know this is getting kinda long and winded, but the point is their has been elements of the M serries graders in several different applications for years, it was just a matter of time before the application was put into the Motor Grader, and personaly I think it would have happend along time ago. With that said, I like operating the strech D-8, 14A as much as I enjoy the D-8R, but I HATE the slam gear graders, no wonder why the old timers are crippled.
I started out at a young age with "knuckle busters" and "cable drop blades and pony motors". We just got a 16M a couple of months ago where I work. I was the lucky one to have to train myself on it, then train someone off of each of 4 crews on it to put it into production. I've spent a lot of time on G and H series blades and I do enjoy running the H, although the last one we got was a lemon and gave us nothing but problems. I'm an operator that loves the challange of figuring out how to master the latest and greatest in equipment as they come in.(not saying I'm a master, but I can hold my own against just about any operator we've got) The M series is deffinately a challange. I love to run it but if I'm going to spend a 12 hour shift blading pit floors, haul roads, and dumps, I'd rather be on an H because that's what I know I can feel and rely on. I usually operate and prefer dozers. The hydrastatic steering and rudder control of the R & T(D9 and under) I absolutely love. But when it comes to the 10R & T with the finger paddle controls, I'd rather run an old 10N or L. I guess I just like operating what works best for me and it's a lot easier (in my opinion) to be a smooth operator feathering linkage clutches or hydraulic valves with my "self control" than it is trying to out guess a computer. But when it comes down to it, If you work for your self, you can operate anything you think you can afford. (For some, that may be the old "knuckle buster" or "cable drop blade and pony motor"), but if you work for sombody else....well you're pretty much going to operate what ever your employer thinks they can afford. I'll always have my prefferences, but I'll operate anything they throw at me and do it well.
Dont like M series to much ******** to many problems give me a H series anyday Oh dont lift your bum off the seat you will get a very sore head when the brackes lock up and send you through the windscreen or out the dor Depending on if you have your seatbelt engaged or not lololol ***
I am not a grader man... This has been one of the best threads on any forum i have ever read. My 2 cents. That guy who seemed to be from Cat that was defending the technology pretty much made it very clear (if you read between the lines). First - just like in trucking or any other field they are or have made the old hands disappear. They only need a warm body to occupy the seat. This way they do not have to seek or train qualified operators or worry about warm body interchangeability. Second - Most of this new generation does not work or want to work. They are from the computer age. They just want to play a game or whatever. The military and all others are racing to accommodate these people. Soon an equipment operator will be issued a piece of equipment to monitor. It will all be controlled by gps and wiz bang technology. All the operator / monitor will need to do is move the equipment to the proper location, initiate the equipment return to work command, then ride along and watch that the machine does not stray or have any warning lights appear, from the comfort of the climate controlled cab. Third - Just like many other industries they want the little guy out. By making the equipment so expensive and complicated, he will be forced out of the way. My opinion. They always said what goes around comes around. We watched most all the mom and pop business’s go. We watched all the independent gas stations be eradicated. We watched as technology replaced many workers. Etc Now it is our turn in the ejection seat. This is just the start of something those on high from there secluded offices are planning and orchestrating. The face of the construction industry will soon be unrecognizable. Those of us who just wanted to make a living at something we love and provide a service to our fellow man will find it very difficult to exist. Big bidness has contracts to sign and profits to accrue. "All and all you’re just another brick in the wall"
yeah yeah yeah good what can i say i can say a lot but im thinking we aint ****** yet old mate
ok the plans good just like i R.J.s Days its just jumpep up a notch go have a look at all the old add's 4 new machenery and what do I see ?? eff all same old seling tech hahaha hey there pulling the other one MATE you can not beet a good OPERATOR sorry.
and stuff Caterpillar to now dont like them anymore sorry give me an old 222 any day loverly machine love them pipes love that GM motor and they could move dirt
Hey guys Im a CAT demonstration operator for the M series, and i have the Operator who helped design the M series phone # on speed dial, so If you have any questions about the machine i will be glad to answer them. seems to be alot of assumptions and ignorance about the machine i would be glad to clear up.
hi terra bull,i have a few questions about the m's.I like being able to adjust the blade shims as they wear,ease of circle pad replacment,quietness and vision in cab when looking at moulboard.Things i don't like poor paint work(our 140m at 1500hrs has been respayed) steering alarm going off,door sealing poor,cat always updating ecu with up grades(how much testing was done before release),hose's rubbing between artic, up and down on moulboard to fast and lack of feel ,view over bonnet when reversing poor.Have the m's been aimed at and tested in all types of grader work ,constuction(final trim with in 10mm and around curb and channel)or just in road maintance ,bulkearth works and mining.Why did it not come in two option joystick and lever control.And last why did engine size decrease but hp went up,does he know how much engine life has been decreased by.thank you.
Can anyone tell me why when your using an "m" series grader with a cat acugrade cross slope system you have to let go of the controls to change the % of cross slope? I run a 140H with the old "bladepro" system with the toggle switches on the controls, this is the only way to "dail" a transition into a "super". This is not possible with the "M" series unless you go to a fully automated system, such as gps or 3d.
Welcome to HEF Blademan-1 :drinkup Would a good eyeball and a 2 foot level do the trick?? :cool2
I wish grader4me...heres the problem,in Ar.,Tx.,Ok.,and La. the state dot has an algerbraic differance between the roadway and shoulder.La magic # is 7%, this means the shoulder on the high side of the super needs to be 0% or flat,if the super is 8% the shoulder would be 1% towards the road,if the super were 6% the shoulder could be 1% away from the road. Are you following me so far?This is where the problem arises...on a typical section the roadway is 2.5% and the shoulder is 5%,the shoulder is 6ft. wide I'm trying to "dial" the shoulder up as I come into a super.Now picture this, it's concrete roadway ,I'm trying to "notch" out 2 inches {for the asphalt shoulder} I'm on 6ft of gravel trying to adjust the % of slope on the shoulder and having to take my hand off the "joy"stick to change the %. This is only my 18th year on a blade but I'm comfortable on my H model where I don't have to take my hands off the controls to change the % of slope. I'm sure the M model is great for doing alot of things but to me finishing isn't one of them. I see many of the other blademen have the same complaint about lack of feel. My company replaces our graders at about 10000 hrs, I have just over 6500 on mine now, so I need to find the time to stop finishing long enough to practice on the M series some more. Thanks for the reply!
Great explaination..thanks..maybe a few of the guys that run the "M" s can give their opinons...enjoy the forum!
why why why ??? does the m series allways jump out of stering calibration ??? like i recon i loose an hour a day recalibrating that bloody stearing. to bad if i got to move the machine quickly out of the road of a runaway dump truck scraper truck etc. nope im going back on to the H. sorry mr caterpillar but joy sticks belong on computer games space shutles and excavators......
Why why why ??? does the M series allways jump out of stering calibration ??? like i recon i loose an hour a day recalibrating that bloody stearing. to bad if i got to move the machine quickly out of the road of a runaway truck scraper dumptruck etc. nope im going back on to the H. sorry mr caterpillar but joy sticks belong on excavators computer games and space shutles .... Also rear visability and stearing is abismal and just outright dangerous. Also if you have a good look under the covers on an M. you will quickly realise that they are only a glorified H series after all. 7 computers on a grader what the hell for computers are notoriously unreliable. not to mention all the extra grease nipples and all that extra wiring thats just wating to be ripped of as soon as you leave the bitumen. and you cant just join the wires back up. the computer sensors run under a resistance pickup arangement and think that the join is an open circuit. and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
umm now what ? http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Te...tability-Office-Warns/Article/200905315284843
Ah .. The M graders are very much different from the H's .. The 24 even more. You will find the Main controls (Both sticks) Are CANBus driven .. PWS .. Not resistance. No AutoLube system on your machine Myeffy?
Like I said before I'm sure the M series is good for many differant jobs I just don't think finishing is one of them.Now I don't want to start a fight, but I wonder how many operators actually did "finish" work with an H or even a G series grader before praising the M series. It's no wonder that Cat made the M model with joy sticks, it's for the Nintendo generation.Which is who will replace me when I retire.I guess my point is there is a hell of alot of differance between pilot valve control on the H&G models and elec. over hyd.control on the M series.Is there nobody else that is having the same problem I am?Lets face it I dont think theres a blademan around that dosen't finish with "feel".
looks pretty cool
NO Pilot Hydraulics Non of the Caterpillar graders have ever used a "Pilot Hydraulic" system like the loaders, scrapers, etc. etc. Its a pure implement valve. The G Series used two different systems (early models) High Standby w/single PC Control Valve & (late model) Low Standby w/Double PC Valve, the H Series uses a Low Standby Triple PC Valve; none have a pilot system. Regards, Randy
Blademan-1: Latest software update provides selectable implement controls. You can slow down the blade lift/lower to make finishing easier. Three modes are selected from inside the cab through the messenger system on the right hand ROPS post. myeffy: If your having steering calibration problems make sure the front tires are aligned correctly. Simple tape measure and a few adjustments won't take too long. Then do your calibration. It should work much better. On the hydraulics: Randy is correct. In fact, the M-Series has the same PPPC hydraulic system as an H. The only difference is the movement of the valve spool and the placement of the valve bank on the machine. An H shifted the valve manually with a lever and rod, the M moves it with an E/H solenoid.
Our 16M is being updated this week with the new selectable controls. I've heard some good feedback on it so far. Looking forward to trying it.
It's always hard to change to a new control configuration. How many of you remember stomping the floor of your car only to remember the dimmer switch is now on the turn signal lever? Most of the operators I deal with like them after a while. It was hard for me to go in a straight line the first time I had to test drive one.
The operator adjustable modulation (speed) control on the blade lift is nice, but I haven't used anything but the normal (medium) speed for most of my blade work. Working around concrete might make operators choose the fine setting. It is funny how you just get used to moving the levers with your thumbs and fingers. Distance and time of movement determine blade movement, just like your hydraulic control levers. Once your mind has adjusted to the sticks, it's a piece of cake, or pie, whichever you prefer. Before hydraulic controls, I'm sure the operators thought you needed the "feel" of the mechanical drives to the blade controls. After hundreds or thousands of hours behind a bank of hydraulic control levers, you do so many things without even having to think about what you are doing. This will happen for the M operators, too. I'm 50, missed the NINTENDO generation, but really enjoy operating the M. There are a few things that I would like changed, and a few things that have already been changed to help make this machine the nicest machine I have operated. C7 was replaced by a C9 last week, and I can't wait to try it out. smoothoperator...in a groove, or in a rut..not sure which
Are you saying that the C7 was replaced with a C9? Is this something special that they did just for your machine or is Cat doing it for all machines? Wow...if they are doing it for all machine that is pretty amazing!! I wonder why they would spend that kind of money??
To Farmboy- The C7 is being replaced by a C9. I think all of the 140M's will be getting the change, unless it is just the AWD's. I talked to the service manager at our local dealer, asking about how much power increase I could expect. He said HP would be about 10%, which would be about 23-25 more, depending on gear selection, and AWD mode. He also said that I should really notice the increase in torque. My 140M AWD is so much heavier than my 143H, I knew that it could use more power than the C7 was rated at. I'm guessing that they could have easily jacked the C7 performance, but they must have had their reason for going to the C9. Caterpillar is taking care of it as an update/product improvement, so we don't pay anything, and the dealer gets paid for 40 man-hours to do the work. Mine had only 617 hours on it, but my understanding is that the old engines will go through the reman process, and will be back serving someone else in the future. I won't be able to compare fuel consumption until I get away from winter and get back to dirtwork and road maintenance. I'll keep you posted. smoothoperator...(insert clever saying here)
Over here all the M's have gotten a new engine program. Increase has been apr 30hp. This issue has been the main downside ,with the M since it was released over here. Increasing hp gives u bether acceleration, but u need torque to get more grunt. Torque is heavily connected to the engine size. If cat is changing the engine in all M's over the world, thats gone cost them. Then i'd say they earn to much money on their M's. We just have to wait and see, if this aplies to all the M modells... Shourely not good enough testing...
My understanding is that it's only supposed to be the 143Ms for now, but that can change as we all know.
C7 to C9 Swap Update. I had more time to visit with the service manager at our Cat dealer, and I remembered to ask if this was for all 140M's or just AWD's. He told me that it was just for the AWD's. He said that there were complaints about being short on power while plowing snow in the higher gears. I know that when I was plowing deep snow with my 143H, I could drop into 4th gear and just keep going, while the other 140's would break traction and have to back out and take another run at it. AWD and a ripper hanging on your tail kind of spoils some of us. The extra power and weight of the C9 140M AWD should make snow plowing more fun. I still have some concern about countersteering after a big wingsmack, but hopefully winter will come on slowly, giving me some time to master the sticks. smoothoperator...eye no yule dew owl wright, sun.
I've been thinking that this post should probably be listed with the "M grader" posts, but maybe next time. I got my 140M AWD back after the C9 for C7 swap, and I haven't really had much of a chance to work it yet. With the fresh engine, I don't want to over-do it before the engine has a chance to "break in" just a bit. The installation was very well done, with nothing looking out of place. Acceleration in 8th gear, from 20 to 29MPH took about 10 seconds, and a hill that used to pull me down to 20-22 MPH now drops me to 24-25. Engine tag shows 268 HP, which is 30 more than the C7 (I think). It also looks like was another pressure switch of some kind plumbed into the steering cylinder hoses. I hope I can get a printout of everything that was changed/updated. The inching pedal works great with a cold transmission, but when it gets up to temp, it gets grabby, and acts more like an on/off switch. Has anyone else had this problem??? More later. smoothoperator...it's not easy giving a cat a bath